Joy_Division wrote: »

TL;DR - Better get your achievement(s) on your sorcerer before the Dark Brotherhood patch launches.

We often say ZoS doesn't listen to our feedback. Accuse them of ignoring us. Claim they don't play their game.

Maybe they think, perhaps with some justification, that since we rarely actually play the PTS, they want to see how the DB changes perform in gameplay situations as opposed to the theorycrafting and mathematical formulas we throw at them. So I hopped into Vet Maelstrom Arena to play in a competitive setting with the new Sorcerer changes. I am on NA and thus stuck using ZoS's templates, but in my estimation 300 CPs are more than enough to get the most important passives down and the job done.

I went in with the new Galerion's Revenge set to see how it performed along with the new critical surge and the new shields. And: I got Rekt! I had 8 or 9 deaths by the time of the Third Stage boss (the strangler round with the Lamia queen) and knew proceeding further would just be an exercise in frustration so I didn't. I have the Flawless Conqueror achievement. I know what I am doing. I then logged onto Live to make sure I just wasn't having a bad day. Rolled my sorcerer into the arena straight from PvP and proceeded to clear the first three stages with zero deaths in about fifteen minutes.

My analysis why I kept dying on the PTS:

The Galerion's Revenge set, while intriguing in theory, is very impractical in that it is too difficult to capitalize on the 5th set bonus, thus rendering its purpose nearly moot. I can hardly blame ZoS for not anticipating this as I saw the set and legitimately wanted to use it. But this is the problem with theorycrafting, it does not allow for us to see how things actually play out in a competitive setting.



How often do you actually get six basic attacks in on an opponent? Very few. Trash is AoEd down. Even in a purely single target setting like I use in vMA, adds die long before they get hit with six basic attacks (typically they only get hit with 2 or 3). Players in PvP? Not very often outside of duels, and even then, do you really think that this "burst" damage is actually going to do anything?



4K. Without battlespirit.

That's less damage I take from a single hit of crushing shock. The only value this comes into play is against high health targets you use a DPS rotation on: Bosses. So this means the 5th bonus is rarely actually being used. And even against bosses, its performance is lackluster:



I managed to get 2 procs over the course of that fight. In vMA, you have to switch targets (stranglers!) and can't just use a DPS rotation as you must heal, move, shield. So two procs and 111 DPS for a 5th set bonus. It's way too conditional and the proc is poor. No thanks. I am going to use a good 5th piece bonus like Julianos that is always "on" and modifies everything I do (i.e. heals) against every target. Save your Tel Var stones.

Suggestion for fix: Look to the NB skill Relentless Focus, which just about all NBs use. Why? It actually does something even without the burst damage. And that something is pretty good: 8% damage buff from minor brutality and stamina regeneration to boot. Also, it was determined that the initial condition of procs was so high (I forget, was it 8? 6?), that the burst damage was hardly used and so was reduced. Them there are at sets such as the new Viper, just one melee hit every 4 seconds and BOOM! - 8k damage. I honestly think this set needs a redesign. Viper is so easy to trigger and this so hard. It would be more appealing as a "revenge" set if the set somehow benefited the wearer from being damaged from specific enemies.

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The six second duration of Hardened Ward was usually not responsible for me dying. It was, however, responsible for draining my magicka pool. It's been a long, long time since I've seen this pop up in vMA:



That's going to happen until sorcerers get used to the shorter duration. Preventable, but with a greater expenditure of magicka ... noticeably greater.

I used a *lot* more magicka clearing the first three stages - the easy ones - on the PTS than I did on Live. My regen and cost reduction on the PTS were similar to on Live. As I understand, ability costs are roughly 10% more. And no doubt, the amount of magicka I had to waste just to survive (more on that below) was absolutely higher. That being said, this was an unsettling. My sorcerer is now, basically, my templar without Puncturing Sweeps ... and Purifying Ritual, Major Mending, and Breath of Life.

I could live with the nerf to duration ... if I got something in return. I didn't. What "tank" or survival abilities do sorcerer have - and need - now that they are just like every other class in that they no longer have a long duration shield? Streak? The only skill in the game the user is penalized for spamming? A "second" shield? Not buying this is a huge advantage since other classes can simply recast their own once it is busted. And ... what exactly? Rune prison? The toolkit for vMA looks rather bare for sorcerers when I think of what the other three classes can do. As it is right now ... how many top sorcerer tanks are out there clearing Vet MOL?

I don't quite buy the many statements that have been floated around on these PTS forums that sorcerers are "ruined" for PvE because in grouped instances, sorcerers don't need shields, heals, and all that other stuff because they have group-mates whose actual function is to provide that stuff. And quite frankly, the default open world difficulty of this game is anything but difficult. It is more accurate to say when the sorcerer is forced to rely on its own tools for survival it is (now) lacking. And it certainly is less enjoyable. Mostly due to the last major change to sorcerers in this PTS that I find the most dubious...

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Surge

What is the purpose of the surge ability? It's a legitimate question. Because if the answer to that question is: "allow sorcerers to passively heal/sustain themselves and do DPS at the same time (ala NB funnel health, templar puncturing sweeps, DK inhale, etc.)," then it has failed in that function ever since the 1.6 patch. The IC patch made this ability better by reducing the cooldown time and extending the duration such that it could sort of work - provided a wounded sorcerer had a large shield up (hardened ward) and surge allowed for a burst heal.

Now with a six second ward and working with just a flat modest heal, sorcerers are going to have to rethink their strategy for doing vMA and staying alive on their own in general. And this isn't the "fun" rethinking as in I can't wait to test some new exciting things. Rather it is akin to getting dumped by a underwear model and then going on a blind date with someone with a "nice personality."

This is gone:


Maybe non-sorcerers are saying good riddance. I am not sure why they think it is OK for their heals to scale off the damage they do and not sorcerers, but whatever, they are entitled to their own opinion. I'm also not exactly sure what I as a sorcerer am supposed to do using this ultimate that does not allow me to use a restoration staff. I repeat the question: if we are going to take this away from the sorcerer's tool kit, what is replacing it? Are sorcerers really expected to take a specific morph of a pet that must be on all three bars (even though it is not a toggle) and keep it alive through all vMA's one-shot mechanics?

And it's not Overload specific. Look at this:


Two things going on here. A crystal frag proc heal served as the sorcerer's burst heal. This cannot happen anymore. Also look at the top few lines, when I received a surge heal from a weaved heavy attack (for more than the flat amount on the PTS) and from the crushing shock that hit afterward. Because of the global cooldown of one second being put into the PTS, the ability to proc multiple heals within a second will also be gone. So not only are sorcerers losing burst healing, they are losing instances of healing period.

On Live, here is a healing parse during the third stage:


Surge HPS 1,200. Average: 3,150. Max: 10,200. Again look at the log, constant heals flowing in from a rapid succession of critical hits. Wasn't a boss fight so Overload was hardly used.

Here is another parse:


Here is the kicker. As good as this version of surge sounds, it pales in comparison to the amount of heals+DPS a templar, a NB, and even a DK can do. These three classes can outheal any non-one shot damage vMA throws them with their respective skills that DPS and heal at the same time. These class do *not* need shields for vMA because their sustain skills are good enough to survive without them. Now they are getting the same shields as sorcerers ... and sorcerers own crit+DPS skill is losing a lot of its effectiveness? It doesn't add up.

Here is what you get from surge on the PTS.

First Boss: He actually killed me on my first attempt: Without the Overload burst heals, it isn't easy to use that ultimate since you don't have a restoration staff. This was the parse when I did defeat him:


It's hard for me to believe the FTC report of 211 Heal Per Second, however, I was desperate enough to use the Healing Sigal on the first boss! I certainly was not getting a lot of healing - look at this snip from the combat log again:


Surge proced only twice when he was hit with 5 attacks and felt desperate enough to actually roll dodge ... with the healing sigal active.

Here is the parse from Maxus fight on Live



Here is a failed attempt at the Lamia Queen.

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I'm only do 4k DPS! I'm spending so much time (and resources) just trying not to die. I hope people won't cite blood magic as a reliable source of sorcerer healing...

Another Lamia attempt:



Compared to Live (this parse included the last part of the mini-boss round before, so the DPS is actually higher than 10K, and the HPS is higher as well.)


The belabored point being made here is the PTS change to surge offers nowhere near the amount of healing and sustain potential as does the one on Live. In conjunction with the reduction of shield duration, a sorcerer trying to rely on this ability to sustain themselves in a competitive situation without the aid of other players is going to be a frustrating change.

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I can only guess the intent of the Surge skill PTS change was to allow for it to provide a more reliable, steady stream of healing since ZoS removed the big bursts and allowed small DoTs to proc the moderate healing the skill provides. In theory the sorcerer could still receive healing while doing something else besides attacking, such as reapplying their shields (which they will have to do a lot next patch).

Here is the problem. Demonstrated by actually playing rather than theory-crafting.

• How was this flat number determined? Flat numbers are bad because they are not related to the organic numbers generated by the game. Look at the other heal+DPS skills in the game, they are connected to each other so that way the heals always keep pace even though with every patch, the damage numbers people pull off increase. If you believe ZoS will spend the time to adjust the surge amount, go ask Dragonknights about their experience with the Dragon's Blood ability.
• Sorcerer damage is direct and all about burst. The changes to surge skill are completely counter-intuitive to how sorcerers are played. Great, DoTs proc the heal. Now, where are the Sorcerer's DoTs? The alleged "it's a DoT just with all the damage at the end skill" Daedric Curse? That skill that is no longer modified by thaumaturge (which is supposed to increase DoT damage)? That same skill that would only proc surge once even though it lasts for more than three seconds? Lightning Flood which many enemies in vMA (and all PvP opponents) will move out of? The Burning status effect we can rarely get because of the changes to how destruction staffs work? The unproductive 200 cost ultimate Storm Atronach? I would much prefer the surge skill to modify those damage skills I actually use.
• Exactly what is the sorcerer supposed to do when low on health? Surge is basically at best mutagen ... without the burst heal at low health. If I wanted this sort of heal option ... why wouldn't I just use mutagen? Why was it necessary to rework a skill that, for its flaws, still kind of worked? OK, I get it, carry around a restoration staff like every other class. Fine. If I am forced to use a restoration staff to sustain myself in the first place, I ask again: What is the purpose of the surge ability? If a sorcerer is at low health in vMA with the Overload skill active, they are going to die because a possible 2K heal per second will not outpace the incoming damage and thus will force a sorc to keep reapplying hardened ward.

At this point here, many people are probably thinking to themselves why should they shed a tear for the "easy mode" vMA class or it's about time sorcs stop being a noob class and actually require "skill" to play. People are entitled to that opinion, but I would say that attitude is, to put it as politely and mildly as possible, a poor one. And if DKs have these feelings, shame on them. Just because one class got smashed by the ZoS nerfhammer doesn't mean the way to patch the game moving forward is to eviscerate the core elements of what classes depend on and then failing to offer viable, let alone fun, alternatives.

I will agree and indeed have been saying since 1.6 that a double stacking long-duration shields scaling off magicka was broken for sorcerers. But the solution is not to give every class a strong shield. And if it is deemed necessary to put an end to the 24-7-365 hardened warded sorcerer, fine, but the class needs something to replace the durability that is being taken away. I know what it's like to play a class designed to survive without shields and I do not find the argument that sorcerers simply need to "git gud" compelling. It does not take exceptional skill for a templar to stand inside purifying ritual spamming puncturing sweeps and just not die.

On Live without the well-meaninged but terrible performing Galerion's Revenge set, I know I would do better. I also recognized by the time I quit, sorcerer gameplay would have to be reversed in that the default situation would be for a sorcerer to *not* have a shield active or else too much magicka would be wasted. With my actual sorcerer, decent gear, and recognition of the changes, with a little practice I'm pretty sure I can get through these three stages without dying.

But I'm not buying I was struggling because of crap gear or a failure to adjust to the new sorcerer reality of tactical shield casting and moderate surge heals. The fact of the matter it is more difficult for a sorcerer to complete this content on the PTS, but the same cannot be said for the other classes. Without precasted shields, a sorcerer will in essence have to play like a templar or DK and use Hardened Ward as a reactive means to enemy threats. Except: sorcerers do not have Major Mending, Purifying Ritual, Breath of Life, Inhale, Reflective Scales, Burning Embers, or Puncturing Sweeps - all excellent sustain skills that are effective enough to keep these classes alive without a precasted shield. The only skill sorcerers have that I would put in that category is Daedric Mines. If using a precasted shield is impractical, I am going to elect to play a class that has been designed to play without one. In short, I'm not going to bang my head against the wall dealing with a nerf just to have my sorcerer complete vMA when I know can simply log my templar and breeze through the arena (indeed, it will actually be easier next patch with Ritual of Retribution). ZoS has taketh, but not giveth.

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The Points:

• The Galerion Set is so conditional that it's 5th set bonus, already lackluster, will rarely be actually used. I really don't think just making it proc off say 3 light attacks would make this set compelling since all it is doing is modest damage to a single specific target.
• The sorcerer shield duration does not so much impact a sorcerer's PvE survivability as it does their magicka pool. I dislike the change to shields in general as it is homogenization. I dislike the change specifically to sorcerers because all I see is a flat nerf without an attractive alternative or buff in others areas as recompense.
• The changes to surge may be well intended, but are extremely problematic in actual gameplay. The inclusion of DoTs in no way increases the number of actual procs a sorcerer will get with the one second global cooldown and the removal of burst heals is directly contrary to the means in which sorcerers do damage (aside from current meta which vastly favors burst over sustain). Less healing all around: the procs are smaller and fewer in number.

What I dislike most about the DB PTS changes is that even if I was determined to adapt and play more "skillfully," this would not be a parallel or horizontal change, that is, having the same relative level of effectiveness by using different abilities and strategies. Sorcerers on the DB have weaker tools at their disposal and I do not believe their all around performance vis-à-vis the other classes in ESO warranted the net nerf they have to eat. On the contrary, sorcerers are a deeply flawed class, the most so of the four IMHO, something that Overloading bosses and shield stacking in PvP have masked. I do not think it's good policy or sense just to slap a nerf on a class and tell players to just deal with it and condescendingly tell them now skill is required.

I played the first three rounds on PTS and the difference is night and day. I find it hard to believe the PTS template or the Galerion set is *that* bad. I am fortunate the my sorcerer isn't my "main" and do not have a strong attachment to it outside of playing with some specific friends in PvP. I suppose since I can still shield stack and drop Negates, it will be fine in Cyrodiil. But PvE? It was boring enough to have my DPS be dependent on toggles and a specific ultimate. If I have to rely on my own for sustain and heals, I'll pass when the DB launches.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The duration on ward and all shields (with the exception of Healing Ward, for obvious reasons) should be increased while in Non Player interactions, or else we're going to see a meta shift where everyone stacks health again so they can avoid mechanics that instantly kill players.

Lucky28 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue i disagree with you're stance on surge man. my nightblade has highers healing then my sorc funnel hits for 13 - 15K and costs 800 magicka it is most definitely a one size fits all.