My PTS sorcerer experience in Maelstrom Arena: Surge & Shields

AfkNinja

@Joy_Division

Great post! Put in some serious work here!

Gilliamtherogue

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue - I agree with most of your points and I believe we see eye to eye on most issues. And you do bring up an important point that the heals from DPS cannot crit anymore (something I believe is a mistake as there are enough stacking healing debuffs to go around but I digress). I do, however, think you overestimate Surge - the way you refer to it as being able to heal through legions of enemies was true in 1.5, but the changes in 1.6 have put an end to all that. Even in its current form, sorcerers cannot rely upon it the way templars can with jabs, NB cans with funnel/sap, and DKs can with embers/inhale because the actual heal+dps skills are on heal on demand whereas surge is not.

In a Raid context in which I have every buff active, I would agree that a surge+crushing shock is superior (at least to the sorcerer's perspective) to NB's funnel (the person receiving the off heal might disagree). If I am alone or even in PuG instanced dungeon, I would rather have funnel because at the point my objective is not optimized DPS / group function, rather self-sustain and survival. That's my perspective, admittedly from someone who spends much more time in situations that place a premium on self sustain than raid efficiency.

Apologies, I was referring to Surge's healing capabilities with my stamina bias in mind, I do agree that it has decreased drastically in effectiveness for the caster PoV, but remains absurdly overpowered in a stamina (Nado spam primarily) DPS's hands with AoE pulls. I struggle more with single target bosses than I do with 20+ enemies on my screen for self healing.

Force Pulse actually beats Funnel on a Nightblade itself, I was pointing more to the fact that Funnel has an operational value associated with it, and that it isn't something that is maximized in all regards. Healthy game play should offer strong options that each have key strengths and weaknesses, which is what I was trying to emphasis on with a NB's options between funnel, concealed, and force pulse, as opposed to the raw power of Surge to say something like Rally(debatable for PvP I guess) for stam or Degeneration for casters. Each of these skills have a healing component and buff damage in some way, but Surge absolutely trounces any other option with no real downfall (until now of course).

I agree on the point of when pugging or solo, but as I said that's the purpose of diversity and having options. This further enforces my case that Surge should be unique and efficient, but not to the point where you don't want to ever consider a different option. In its current form Surge has no real down fall and does nothing but reaps benifits and awards the caster a vast amount without needing to sacrifice anything in place. The high availability of innate crit makes the critical hit damage requirement null, as you can literally get the following without giving anything up as a sorc;
Caster- 10% base, 12% Apprentice, 10% Major Prophecy, 3% Minor Prophecy, 10% 5 piece light armor. That's a passive 45% spell critical without investing in anything you normally wouldn't (maybe minor prophecy), add in Precise (7%), the popular Thief Stone (11% base, 16.775% with the meta of all divines PvE), and any crit set bonuses, and you're already above 60%, nearing 70% depending on the build.

Stam- 10% base, 12% Ritual, 10% Major Savagery, 10.5% 7/7 medium armor. 42.5% weapon crit, and the same additional apply.

We can already see that simply passively for both stam and caster, surge is operating at almost 50% operational value, which with something that scales in power based on your character's power progression, is insane.

Perhaps ZoS should look for setting a new requirement of the heal on surge, that deals more with player interaction, rather than something based on whim and automatically applying? I'd be all for a surge heal INCREASE if it meant lowering the rate that it procced, as it would make the class feel more engaging and would allow for interesting new strategies to be formed to fight as or against in PvP, while allowing for a more core identity to form for builds in PvE as well.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Minalan - No, I did not try the Empowered variant of ward (an odd name considering the ward is smaller) because I PvP and in my perspective the larger shield from Hardened is not negotiable. I have zero desire to take a smaller shield that will get me killed in PvP just so I can run my sorcerer through Maelstrom. I'll just log my templar or DK.

For PVP, you back-bar empowered ward and front-bar harness Magicka (or ideally Nullify Magicka for the bigger shield). The idea being, you still have a backup shield on a longer duration for when you're stunned five seconds in, or it just peters out. It's not a one-shot death situation. It could work on vet maelstrom, especially with the 10% regen bonus on empowered ward.

I'm with you on your frustration, and unwillingness to give up hardened ward. I suspect they'll come out with a magic based update eventually, possibly necromancy or the worm cult. I'm sure they'll 'fix' us then, until then the rest of us will find a way to hobble along.

Solariken

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

ryanborror

Some of your surge heal comparisons are not balanced. Using overload on live is going to heal you more than not using it on the pts. That said you have a lot of good points. It seems that galerions revenge needs a buff. So many changes in this game made to balance pvp end up ruining pve for us. Then they attempt to fix problems with another problem. I love this game but im nervous about a few things this patch.

Grao

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Costismaros

Great Post.

code65536

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Yea, I used to be one of those people who thought that sorcs were OP. And then I finally got my sorc to VR16. And boy was that an eye-opener. With VR16s in every class, I can say without hesitation that sorcs are the least fun to play and have the most issues. And with the changes I'm seeing on the PTS, this is only going to get worse.

luen79rwb17_ESO

Such awesome and detailed post and totally explain (in a much better way than I did) my exact same experience when I tested surge changes last week.

I really do hope we get a detailed explanation on magicka sorc changes soon or next ESO Live and see if we all can understand the logic behind all these nerfs.

Grao

code65536 wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Yea, I used to be one of those people who thought that sorcs were OP. And then I finally got my sorc to VR16. And boy was that an eye-opener. With VR16s in every class, I can say without hesitation that sorcs are the least fun to play and have the most issues. And with the changes I'm seeing on the PTS, this is only going to get worse.

Once upon a time sorcerers were really powerful, but that was a loooong time ago. Numerous patches and nerfs buffed other classes and pretty much buried sorcerers. It was also once fun to play... I loved leveling my sorcerer for instance...

But late game our builds are extremely limited by what is and isn't viable. The fact we have only one choice of weapon for Magicka build while other classes can for instance use dual wield is really sad. Meanwhile we are stuck using a Fire staff, which is not beneficial to our class (Lightning would be much better if the heavy attack didn't sucked) and a skill that also isn't nearly that beneficial or benefited by our passives, Force Pulse. Pet builds are still lacking as we don't have a non pet linked heal for them, our wards were nerfed and the pet's survivability was slightly buffed. They need greater health pools and to top that, they definitely need to be affected by our passives (storm calling passives that affect lightning attacks) and by our champion points. Currently their DPS is not competitive.

Our class heal is tied to a pet, making it unreliable as keeping the pet alive is a impossible challenge and tanking as a sorcerer, while possible, is not at all optimal. All the other classes have better self heals and tanking buffs. Ours has a 1 second channel time (meaning tanks can't use it) and the other comes from yet another pet... Which tanks can't use it as they can't afford that many toggles in their bar.

Akimbro

Thank you for this Joy. I'm not as active on ESO as I used to be but I've been around since launch and my Sorc (AD: Omelette Du Fromage) has been my main. I've tried vMA on the PTS with the typical Willpower/Julianos setup as well and no dice. For those who don't play Sorc, this is essentially taking away the Sorc's bread and butter. Sorcs have already been gimped by being forced into a destro ability for DPS by not having an effective class ability as a main DPS. Already with low(er) damage output, Sorcs were able to survive in vMA and PvP with their defensive abilities. With the nerfs to ward and surge, what you have left is lackluster DPS and no effective abilities for suitability. What's left? Pets I guess...

Nightblades have a single target DPS w/ heals (funnel) + an AOE DPS w/ heals (sap) + an Ultimate w/ heals (tether)

Templars have a conal DPS w/ heals (jabs) + a plethora of heal abilities + a healing Ultimate

Dragonknights have a burst heal (blood) + an AOE DPS w/ heals (essence) + heals scaled to Ultimate cost

Sorcs on the other hand was comparable as surge allowed an single target, AOE, or Ultimate DPS ability to heal. Now, the surge heals are pretty much flat while the heals from other classes are all somewhat scaled.

If these changes to surge and ward remain, I won't go as extreme to that it will be the end of Sorcs, but it will effectively make Sorcs less competitive to the other classes.

heyewe

@Joy_Division I GREATLY appreciate you. I hope the research, time and due diligence you've given to the PTS cause Zos to consider the impact of these changes.

Grao

Akimbro wrote: »

Thank you for this Joy. I'm not as active on ESO as I used to be but I've been around since launch and my Sorc (AD: Omelette Du Fromage) has been my main. I've tried vMA on the PTS with the typical Willpower/Julianos setup as well and no dice. For those who don't play Sorc, this is essentially taking away the Sorc's bread and butter. Sorcs have already been gimped by being forced into a destro ability for DPS by not having an effective class ability as a main DPS. Already with low(er) damage output, Sorcs were able to survive in vMA and PvP with their defensive abilities. With the nerfs to ward and surge, what you have left is lackluster DPS and no effective abilities for suitability. What's left? Pets I guess...

Nightblades have a single target DPS w/ heals (funnel) + an AOE DPS w/ heals (sap) + an Ultimate w/ heals (tether)

Templars have a conal DPS w/ heals (jabs) + a plethora of heal abilities + a healing Ultimate

Dragonknights have a burst heal (blood) + an AOE DPS w/ heals (essence) + heals scaled to Ultimate cost

Sorcs on the other hand was comparable as surge allowed an single target, AOE, or Ultimate DPS ability to heal. Now, the surge heals are pretty much flat while the heals from other classes are all somewhat scaled.

If these changes to surge and ward remain, I won't go as extreme to that it will be the end of Sorcs, but it will effectively make Sorcs less competitive to the other classes.

We were already hardly competitive considering how little utility our class offers when compared to others on top of of the lackluster DPS, but yes, you are right... This won't be the end of sorcerers... We will still be able to complete content, albeit with a lot more effort than other classes have to put in, but we won't ever hold any competitive numbers. Our DPS will be even lower than it currently is on Live, our survivability is now almost as bad as our pets and our utility, unless the buffs to Negate were truly good, will still be too weak to justify bringing sorcerers with your raid group.

lathbury

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Such awesome and detailed post and totally explain (in a much better way than I did) my exact same experience when I tested surge changes last week.

I really do hope we get a detailed explanation on magicka sorc changes soon or next ESO Live and see if we all can understand the logic behind all these nerfs.

you been around since beta and are still hoping for a) a discussion on relevant things on eso live and b) logic from the combat team. Thats nice you must be the last of the optimists

DDemon

I agree with everything you said in this well formed post and I hope someone at zeni will take the effort of reading it.

Jar_Ek

Would just like to add a thanks to @Joy_Division for the extremely well written post. It may just be me, but it looks like you are not running many (any?) DoTs which is basically a requirement for the new Surge to proc. I don't think it will change the outcome significantly, but unless our tests can be called "credible" zos won't feel compelled to listen.

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

Would just like to add a thanks to @Joy_Division for the extremely well written post. It may just be me, but it looks like you are not running many (any?) DoTs which is basically a requirement for the new Surge to proc. I don't think it will change the outcome significantly, but unless our tests can be called "credible" zos won't feel compelled to listen.

He was using Lightning Flood, but as he was I believe using the overload bar a lot it limits what DoTs he can use. He seemed to be giving preference to use mines to CC things around him over another DoT.

TheHsN

ZOS should make these changes up before DLC come...Cuz all of us know that when they see their mistakes we all the time had to wait till the next DLC and that is not fair...

in PTS ,

Surge and Hardened ward is completely useless in PvE i didnt try PvP but im sure same as well..

Solariken

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Hey @Grao, I don't claim to be the sorc expert, and I realize my experience is especially one-sided since I leveled mine exclusively in IC and Cyrodiil. However, as "rigid" as the cookie-cutter builds may be, they are INSANELY effective. They aren't necessarily over-powered in any one aspect, but they are vastly over-performing because they can build for maximum effectiveness in all modalities simultaneously.

As soon as I hit V1 on my sorc though, I did vMA to see how much easier it was than on my stamplar main. For crap sake, it was a damn breeze comparatively - Sorcs have it so easy, sitting back in that shielded ivory tower Crushing Shocking anything casting across the map and easy-button Overloading all the bosses down.

Just because I don't find the playstyle particularly fun for me doesn't mean I don't have a really excellent understanding of the class and how it's played and how good players generally build. I've spent a ton of time dueling Sorcs and talking talking shop with Sorc players.

You don't have to believe it yet, but I'm telling you Sorcs will still be in a good place after the upcoming patch.

Joy_Division

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

Grao

Solariken wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Hey @Grao, I don't claim to be the sorc expert, and I realize my experience is especially one-sided since I leveled mine exclusively in IC and Cyrodiil. However, as "rigid" as the cookie-cutter builds may be, they are INSANELY effective. They aren't necessarily over-powered in any one aspect, but they are vastly over-performing because they can build for maximum effectiveness in all modalities simultaneously.

As soon as I hit V1 on my sorc though, I did vMA to see how much easier it was than on my stamplar main. For crap sake, it was a damn breeze comparatively - Sorcs have it so easy, sitting back in that shielded ivory tower Crushing Shocking anything casting across the map and easy-button Overloading all the bosses down.

Just because I don't find the playstyle particularly fun for me doesn't mean I don't have a really excellent understanding of the class and how it's played and how good players generally build. I've spent a ton of time dueling Sorcs and talking talking shop with Sorc players.

You don't have to believe it yet, but I'm telling you Sorcs will still be in a good place after the upcoming patch.

.................................
OMG!!!!!!
I AM NOT SAYING SORCERERS HAVE PROBLEM IN PVP!!!!!!
PvE!!!!!! I am talking about sorcerers in PvE!!!!! Where they have been the weakest class for over a year! Gods sake!

jknight201

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

Sorcs were never "maximally" effective in self-healing or resource management. They were only adequate in DPS, even when in full-on DPS mode. These changes mean that just to survive, sorcs will have to allocate even more of their scarce resources to staying alive - just what you want in a DPS class. And exactly what damage mitigation? You do realize this is a class that is forced to wear light armor (mag sorcs), right?

So the situation now is that you need to be moderately skilled to play a sorc and compete with a scrub, who's just spamming Sweeps on his Templar. Yeah, that's going to be fun - and a great way to keep players that have a sorc as their main.

Minalan

Solariken wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

I find it funny how you say that without having a max level sorcerer to know how much we already had to sacrifice before this new batch of nerfs. You clearly have so much knowledge of the class, no?

Sorcerers have absurdly rigid builds, most of which are not truly viable, but hey, we will adapt, right? Great...

Hey @Grao, I don't claim to be the sorc expert, and I realize my experience is especially one-sided since I leveled mine exclusively in IC and Cyrodiil. However, as "rigid" as the cookie-cutter builds may be, they are INSANELY effective. They aren't necessarily over-powered in any one aspect, but they are vastly over-performing because they can build for maximum effectiveness in all modalities simultaneously.

As soon as I hit V1 on my sorc though, I did vMA to see how much easier it was than on my stamplar main. For crap sake, it was a damn breeze comparatively - Sorcs have it so easy, sitting back in that shielded ivory tower Crushing Shocking anything casting across the map and easy-button Overloading all the bosses down.

Just because I don't find the playstyle particularly fun for me doesn't mean I don't have a really excellent understanding of the class and how it's played and how good players generally build. I've spent a ton of time dueling Sorcs and talking talking shop with Sorc players.

You don't have to believe it yet, but I'm telling you Sorcs will still be in a good place after the upcoming patch.

I think you failed to read his whole post where he's constantly dying.

If that's what you consider 'good'. Try it on PTS

Solariken

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

gamerguy757

I'm a little lost. So do critical hits not heal you for the damage anymore? Like if I hit a vma boss for 35000 damage with an overload, I don't get that heal? For those on the PTS, what's going on with critical hits now? I'm on Xbox and this is worrying me.

Grao

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

Another complete idiot that thinks because Zenimax is destroying sorcerers they must be ubber overpowered.

I am sorry, I am so sorry, but NO. You don't have a sorcerer at max level so you don't have the right to come here and give your opinion as if you understood the class at all! Max out your sorcerer first, go through all trials, not VMA and see how well you will do with the class that at the same time has the lowest Magicka and Stamina DPS, can't tank nearly as well as other classes, has their only class heal tied to a *** pet that dies to every *** AoE and that has near to ZERO utility.

Then... After you actually have experienced how Sorcerers perform in PvE... Then you can come here and talk smack. If you are still able to say sorcerers are fine and Zenimax is right to nerf them again and again... then you talk. Otherwise, shut up >.<

dagonbeer

Solariken wrote: »

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

My, you're in for a rude awakening if you're outraged that your opinions are not being counted because the lack of domain experience.

On the other hand, you did manage to squeeze out 300 words about it so maybe you'll do fine.

Solariken

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

Another complete idiot that thinks because Zenimax is destroying sorcerers they must be ubber overpowered.

I am sorry, I am so sorry, but NO. You don't have a sorcerer at max level so you don't have the right to come here and give your opinion as if you understood the class at all! Max out your sorcerer first, go through all trials, not VMA and see how well you will do with the class that at the same time has the lowest Magicka and Stamina DPS, can't tank nearly as well as other classes, has their only class heal tied to a *** pet that dies to every *** AoE and that has near to ZERO utility.

Then... After you actually have experienced how Sorcerers perform in PvE... Then you can come here and talk smack. If you are still able to say sorcerers are fine and Zenimax is right to nerf them again and again... then you talk. Otherwise, shut up >.<

Calm down, @Grao, insults aren't necessary unless you want a forum ban. I understand your passion for the issue but don't derail the thread with personal attacks. I feel like completing vMA and doing a significant amount of PvP on my mSorc gives me some klout in the discussion, but it's fine if you disagree. I personally don't care about the DPS pissing match that is PvE trials, but I can see why sorc balancing is such a bear for ZOS because it's hard to buff DPS/self-healing output with a class that possesses so much utility in PvP. And in PvP, Sorcs will continue to thrive after the patch goes live.

jnikolay

I cross posted this on the ESO subreddit for more visibility (giving you credit). For whatever reason that sub hates sorcs and is unwilling to listen to honest facts, so it got downvoted into oblivion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/4jnk9p/i_know_this_sub_is_full_of_sorc_haters_but_i/

Grao

Solariken wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

Another complete idiot that thinks because Zenimax is destroying sorcerers they must be ubber overpowered.

I am sorry, I am so sorry, but NO. You don't have a sorcerer at max level so you don't have the right to come here and give your opinion as if you understood the class at all! Max out your sorcerer first, go through all trials, not VMA and see how well you will do with the class that at the same time has the lowest Magicka and Stamina DPS, can't tank nearly as well as other classes, has their only class heal tied to a *** pet that dies to every *** AoE and that has near to ZERO utility.

Then... After you actually have experienced how Sorcerers perform in PvE... Then you can come here and talk smack. If you are still able to say sorcerers are fine and Zenimax is right to nerf them again and again... then you talk. Otherwise, shut up >.<

Calm down, @Grao, insults aren't necessary unless you want a forum ban. I understand your passion for the issue but don't derail the thread with personal attacks. I feel like completing vMA and doing a significant amount of PvP on my mSorc gives me some klout in the discussion, but it's fine if you disagree. I personally don't care about the DPS pissing match that is PvE trials, but I can see why sorc balancing is such a bear for ZOS because it's hard to buff DPS/self-healing output with a class that possesses so much utility in PvP. And in PvP, Sorcs will continue to thrive after the patch goes live.

I am tired of being calm. At the rate Zenimax ignores our every thread I might as well be banned from the damn forum as it is clearly pointless. And no... I am sorry, both VMA and PvP have completely different needs when compared to group PvE. VMA is all about survivability and true, up to this horrid patch called Dark Brotherhood sorcerers had good survivability. Now we have almost none, but clearly that doesn't matter to you... Have you even tried going through VMA in the PTS? Guessing no... @Joy_Division did though and the numbers he pasted don't lie. As for PvP, it is all about burst and yes sorcerers have good burst, unfortunately that damage doesn't translate well at all to PvE where the class has the worse DPS registed both with Magicka and Stamina.

I really don't see how hard it is to balance our damage for PvE though, I am not asking for the abilities we currently have to do extra damage, I am not stupid, I know that would increase our burst potential in PVP. What I want is a ability slightly more powerful than Force Pulse with a melee and a ranged morphs to be added to the Dark Magic tree for sorcerers, that would help our sustain, the damage of the ability could be regulated to put our DPS in level with other magicka classes and it would not affect PvP too heavily as it is a sustain DPS ability, not burst DPS. How *** hard is to give us that? Every other class has a spammable of their own...