My PTS sorcerer experience in Maelstrom Arena: Surge & Shields

Saturn

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

code65536

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Grao

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

That is not on the PTS, Overload is bugged and does not provide good DPS in extended fights because sorcerers have no spammable attack to weave with the powered light attacks.

THe problem we have with sorcerers right now is that we weren't by far, the strongest class, quite the contrary, we were pretty close to the bottom in any PvE role and still we saw the heaviest nerfs with 0 compensation. Our problem is while other classes have at least some space to wiggle personal takes on their builds, sorcerer's have zero space to maneuver in part thanks to the toggles, in part because so many of our skills are simply not good, in part because we are tied to a fire destro staff... What is the point of playing a class that isn't as fun as the others and is not better than the other at anything...

Did you guys noticed @Wrobel dismissive laugh when @ZOS_GinaBruno brought sorcerers concerns up? They all had a good laugh so apparently the class is a nice internal joke. How do you guys feel about that? Being their office joke?

Saturn

code65536 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

Saturn

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

@zeroIndex

I tried it out as well and found that it was a better heal since it's more consistent and triggers off ground AoE. Sure you don't get the Overload mega heals, but I prefer this version more. As for the shields, it's not like they last long enough for the time duration to really be an issue, except for those of us that precast shields.
I think this is once again a case of people reading patch notes and not testing them out, but instead immediately jumping to conclusions. It's the same with the tank changes, which benefits more people than it hurts.
I kind of wish everyone would take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these. Some of the posts here sound like people didn't even test out the surge.

code65536

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

Saturn

code65536 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

Grao

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

Well toggles that have an active component are good, pets would be very interesting if they survived more than 20 seconds in PvE, for example, because they have interesting actives. The morphs for Bound Armor, Aegis and Armaments could similarly to pets, have a active component, maybe a Hot for Aegis and a damage buff for Armaments, for example. That would be interesting.

I do agree sorcerers need a spammable ability though, not only to add build diversity, but also because our kit heavily favors having more sorcerer skills in our bar, not to mention having a spammable to weave with Overload would increase that Ult's potential considerably.

code65536

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

@zeroIndex

I tried it out as well and found that it was a better heal since it's more consistent and triggers off ground AoE. Sure you don't get the Overload mega heals, but I prefer this version more. As for the shields, it's not like they last long enough for the time duration to really be an issue, except for those of us that precast shields.
I think this is once again a case of people reading patch notes and not testing them out, but instead immediately jumping to conclusions. It's the same with the tank changes, which benefits more people than it hurts.
I kind of wish everyone would take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these. Some of the posts here sound like people didn't even test out the surge.

You mean the ground AoE that opponents step out of in a second or two when we don't have a tank to hold them in place?

I've done the first round of vMA on the PTS, and my average HPS was around 1/3 of what it is on Live for that same round. Now, part of that might be the whole 300CP template thing, so I'll give it another go next week when we get our copies again. But, no, this "let our ground AoEs tick" notion is wishful thinking.

Joy_Division

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

@zeroIndex

I tried it out as well and found that it was a better heal since it's more consistent and triggers off ground AoE. Sure you don't get the Overload mega heals, but I prefer this version more. As for the shields, it's not like they last long enough for the time duration to really be an issue, except for those of us that precast shields.
I think this is once again a case of people reading patch notes and not testing them out, but instead immediately jumping to conclusions. It's the same with the tank changes, which benefits more people than it hurts.
I kind of wish everyone would take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these. Some of the posts here sound like people didn't even test out the surge.

I made the post. I Tested it.

Here were my Surge heals on Live Vs. PTS against the bosses (discounting the last one since I only have a 30 second parse):

Stage 1:

• PTS: 914 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 1665 Heals Per Second. (82% increase)

Stage 2:

• PTS: 1319 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 1831 Heals Per Second. (39% increase)

Stage 3:

• PTS: 1039 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 1726 Heals Per Second. (66% increase)

Stage 4:

• PTS: 1191 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 2069 Heals Per Second. (73% increase)

Stage 5:

• PTS: 1243 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 1681 Heals Per Second. (35% increase)

Stage 6:

• PTS: 1285 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 1440 Heals Per Second. (12% increase)

Stage 7:

• PTS: 914 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 2127 Heals Per Second. (133% increase)

Stage 8:

• PTS: 1206 Heals Per Second.
• Live: 2545 Heals Per Second. (111% increase)

PTS build ran a skill I didn't want to use to proc more heals. Live build made zero accommodations. Live is still better. Noticeably. I didn't just read the patch notes and jump to conclusions. In the OP I said:

"We often say ZoS doesn't listen to our feedback. Accuse them of ignoring us. Claim they don't play their game.

Maybe they think, perhaps with some justification, that since we rarely actually play the PTS, they want to see how the DB changes perform in gameplay situations as opposed to the theorycrafting and mathematical formulas we throw at them. So I hopped into Vet Maelstrom Arena to play in a competitive setting with the new Sorcerer changes."

I didn't just give up. It was tested, results were documented and are 100% consistent demonstrating that Surge gives less healing all around as well as not offering any burst. If people have the arena memorized and are very good sorcerers, they are still going to be able to beat the arena. I did not say otherwise. My contention was that PTS version of Surge was nerf and when coupled with the nerf to Hardened Ward amounted to a net-nerf to the other three classes, something I find highly questionable as in my estimation sorcs are not indisputably better. Maybe you find the new surge convenient because you can DoT up spawn positions you have memorized in vMA, but some sorcerers play content where the are no spawns to DoT up and the absence of the burst option and the imposition of a 1 second cooldown make adapting to the new version awkward and not fun.

zeroIndex

[/quote]

You mean the ground AoE that opponents step out of in a second or two when we don't have a tank to hold them in place?

I've done the first round of vMA on the PTS, and my average HPS was around 1/3 of what it is on Live for that same round. Now, part of that might be the whole 300CP template thing, so I'll give it another go next week when we get our copies again. But, no, this "let our ground AoEs tick" notion is wishful thinking.[/quote]

There aren't many adds in the first round. The first round had me spending more magicka than I normally use. But there wasn't much of a dps loss, just an extra shield or two. Then again that could be a champion point issue.

You shouldn't be running from the adds anyway. The only problems were during boss fights where you have to run. All other rounds were easier because the heals were more consistent. But with proper timing on the shield and maintaining your dots its alright. That and having a good grasp of the mechanics. Stage 5's boss was harder but with a couple more runs it wont be that bad. Just have to adapt. And it doesn't seem like a huge hill that has to be traversed.

I would like to run it with all my champion points and set up from live. I could make a more valid statement at that point. Maybe it is harder and the surge isn't enough and we'll have to bury our sorcs due to this change, like all the posts on this pts forum suggest. But with the current template it honestly doesn't seem to be the case.

All in all I think the heals were better. Sure, there was no super heal from the overload or frag, but the consistent heals was a nice change. I have played a magicka sorc since lauch, but then again, im no super sorc and am just giving my feedback. This thread was about surge being inadequate and I honestly don't believe that is true.

Lucky28

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

Grao

Lucky28 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

he likely means Bound Armor and its morphs. I dont disagree, Aegis and Armaments are very important, but them having an active component would be useful.

Derra

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

That still does not change the issue that you can´t compete with current scores anymore.
I don´t bother completing it because i loose 90 to 120s when completing stage 5 on pts compared to live. That´s why i know i won´t reach live scores anymore.
Leaderboard needs a reset for sorcs.

Lucky28

Grao wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lucky28 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

he likely means Bound Armor and its morphs. I dont disagree, Aegis and Armaments are very important, but them having an active component would be useful.

nightblades pretty much have bound armor in their passives.

Grao

Lucky28 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Grao wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

he likely means Bound Armor and its morphs. I dont disagree, Aegis and Armaments are very important, but them having an active component would be useful.

nightblades pretty much have bound armor in their passives.

I know... I've said before, Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments could most definitely use an active skill...

Lucky28

Grao wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lucky28 wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

he likely means Bound Armor and its morphs. I dont disagree, Aegis and Armaments are very important, but them having an active component would be useful.

nightblades pretty much have bound armor in their passives.

I know... I've said before, Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments could most definitely use an active skill...

or just get rid of rebate and slap bound armor there. gain the effects of 'bound armor' when you have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

of course you'd have to balance that between stamina and magicka..... yeah right.

Grao

Lucky28 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Grao wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

@code65536

Sorcs just require a different approach. They can be quite powerful without Overload (which we all know is buggy as hell).

I'd like to show you what sorcerers are capable of in a trial setting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfi1e_2xif4

Oh, I'm well aware that in trials, you use Shooting Star just like everyone else, not Overload. Never once did I mention Overload in my post. But the key to good sustained DPS is DoTs, and the sorc DoT toolkit just isn't comparable to, say, the DK's. Couple this with Bound Armor further limiting the breadth of their toolkit. They can still pull good numbers, but relative to the other classes, they are weak.

Most magicka nightblades use the same amount of dots as sorcerers. Sorcs use Liquid Lightning and Elemental Blockade, Nightblades use Crippling Grasp and Elemental Blockade. Usually what I see anyway, so there's no really difference, other than the fact that Sorcs don't have a good class spammable. Doesn't stop them from doing 30k+ in group content.

You did see Nos' thread, right? The magblades in the CSH vMoL runs have all swapped to Force Pulse.

Nightblades can slot more abilities because they don't have to deal with a toggle eating up their bars, and we also run proxdet or path.

I messed around with Pulse, but Strife is better for my setup. Regardless, sorcs still lack a class spammable. And to be honest the sorc toggle is pretty nice and isn't something I think is a problem.

how is the sorc toggle nice ?

he likely means Bound Armor and its morphs. I dont disagree, Aegis and Armaments are very important, but them having an active component would be useful.

nightblades pretty much have bound armor in their passives.

I know... I've said before, Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments could most definitely use an active skill...

or just get rig of rebate and slap bound armor there. gain the effects of 'bound armor' when you have a daedric summoning ability slotted.

Possible... But unlike most I actually liked the idea of a sorcerer summoning that suit of heavy armor, I am still hoping ZoS will improve that armor look to a ghostly aspect of it or something instead of simply removing it all together.

Besides, good actives for Aegis and Armaments shouldn't be too hard to come by. I stand behind making Aegis increase your health pool instead of Magicka pool and give it the active heal from Clannfear. Armaments should provide extra stamina and the active should grant Minor Berserk, one of the best DPS buffs in the game that is given to normal skills.

FearlessOne_2014

Awesome post I hope ZOS looks at it, but seriously doubt anyone will look at this other then players and mods.

cschwingeb14_ESO

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

show previous quotes

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

Agree completely! By far, the simplest solution to the Surge issues is to raise the flat rate heal by a large amount. In my opinion, a 200% increase would silence most of the complaints in both PvE and PvP.

It's not though. Sure, my sorc would be happy with tripling the heal. But flat rate heals are a stupid mechanic. Heals need to scale with something. This goes for surge and dark exchange.

Imagine if Surge heals scaled and healed for 1% of max magicka (power surge) or 1.5% of Max stamina (crit surge)

Exchange heals could scale with Max health, while stam and magicka return can be fixed. I think this is what tanks would want, I'm not sure. The cast time is still crap

Saturn

Joy_Division wrote: »

show previous quotes

Saturn wrote: »

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

@zeroIndex

I tried it out as well and found that it was a better heal since it's more consistent and triggers off ground AoE. Sure you don't get the Overload mega heals, but I prefer this version more. As for the shields, it's not like they last long enough for the time duration to really be an issue, except for those of us that precast shields.
I think this is once again a case of people reading patch notes and not testing them out, but instead immediately jumping to conclusions. It's the same with the tank changes, which benefits more people than it hurts.
I kind of wish everyone would take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these. Some of the posts here sound like people didn't even test out the surge.

PTS build ran a skill I didn't want to use to proc more heals. Live build made zero accommodations. Live is still better. Noticeably. I didn't just read the patch notes and jump to conclusions. In the OP I said:

"We often say ZoS doesn't listen to our feedback. Accuse them of ignoring us. Claim they don't play their game.

Maybe they think, perhaps with some justification, that since we rarely actually play the PTS, they want to see how the DB changes perform in gameplay situations as opposed to the theorycrafting and mathematical formulas we throw at them. So I hopped into Vet Maelstrom Arena to play in a competitive setting with the new Sorcerer changes."

I didn't just give up. It was tested, results were documented and are 100% consistent demonstrating that Surge gives less healing all around as well as not offering any burst. If people have the arena memorized and are very good sorcerers, they are still going to be able to beat the arena. I did not say otherwise. My contention was that PTS version of Surge was nerf and when coupled with the nerf to Hardened Ward amounted to a net-nerf to the other three classes, something I find highly questionable as in my estimation sorcs are not indisputably better. Maybe you find the new surge convenient because you can DoT up spawn positions you have memorized in vMA, but some sorcerers play content where the are no spawns to DoT up and the absence of the burst option and the imposition of a 1 second cooldown make adapting to the new version awkward and not fun.

I wasn't really refering to the OP, but more so other comments on this thread that seemingly give up without trying it out for themselves. People are just completely agreeing with your point of view, but don't bother give it a test of their own. I don't think there's anything wrong with advocating someone else's perspective of something, but one has to test for oneself to have an honest opinion. It just sort of reminds of whenever people see patch notes they doom something because on paper it sounds like it is bad, but they don't truly know if it is until they try for themselves. Just like the tank changes.

I agree with the two posts @zeroIndex has made. He's a person whose opinion I trust since he has been playing it since launch and has always been one of the best sorcerers on my server. What he is describing is pretty much the exact same results I have seen. Some rounds on specific stages are harder due to lack of burst heal from Overload crits, but the consistent heal helps a lot more with most of the fights, so it ends up feeling easier with the new surge honestly. Sure it won't be better for everyone, but if you are running ground aoes it is better than on Live. You need to run a resto staff like a lot of people are saying here.

Also, your "heals per second" post (that i didn't include in the quote because it was too long) is pretty misleading. It is just like how some healers can get 80k heals per second, because all they do is spam breath of life with high crit, even though people only require 2k heals, but are getting 30k, which inflates number immensely (same thing happens with dps, where you end up on dps tests doing more overall damage than the target has health, this happens quite often on Bloodspawn for example).
The big crit heals with overload and frags on live are pretty much just like that. They'll heal you for a sh*t ton, but you don't really need all that health most of the time. So I don't trust your point of view purely based on those numbers.

Joy_Division

Saturn wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

zeroIndex wrote: »

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.

@zeroIndex

I tried it out as well and found that it was a better heal since it's more consistent and triggers off ground AoE. Sure you don't get the Overload mega heals, but I prefer this version more. As for the shields, it's not like they last long enough for the time duration to really be an issue, except for those of us that precast shields.
I think this is once again a case of people reading patch notes and not testing them out, but instead immediately jumping to conclusions. It's the same with the tank changes, which benefits more people than it hurts.
I kind of wish everyone would take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these. Some of the posts here sound like people didn't even test out the surge.

PTS build ran a skill I didn't want to use to proc more heals. Live build made zero accommodations. Live is still better. Noticeably. I didn't just read the patch notes and jump to conclusions. In the OP I said:

"We often say ZoS doesn't listen to our feedback. Accuse them of ignoring us. Claim they don't play their game.

Maybe they think, perhaps with some justification, that since we rarely actually play the PTS, they want to see how the DB changes perform in gameplay situations as opposed to the theorycrafting and mathematical formulas we throw at them. So I hopped into Vet Maelstrom Arena to play in a competitive setting with the new Sorcerer changes."

I didn't just give up. It was tested, results were documented and are 100% consistent demonstrating that Surge gives less healing all around as well as not offering any burst. If people have the arena memorized and are very good sorcerers, they are still going to be able to beat the arena. I did not say otherwise. My contention was that PTS version of Surge was nerf and when coupled with the nerf to Hardened Ward amounted to a net-nerf to the other three classes, something I find highly questionable as in my estimation sorcs are not indisputably better. Maybe you find the new surge convenient because you can DoT up spawn positions you have memorized in vMA, but some sorcerers play content where the are no spawns to DoT up and the absence of the burst option and the imposition of a 1 second cooldown make adapting to the new version awkward and not fun.

I wasn't really refering to the OP, but more so other comments on this thread that seemingly give up without trying it out for themselves. People are just completely agreeing with your point of view, but don't bother give it a test of their own. I don't think there's anything wrong with advocating someone else's perspective of something, but one has to test for oneself to have an honest opinion. It just sort of reminds of whenever people see patch notes they doom something because on paper it sounds like it is bad, but they don't truly know if it is until they try for themselves. Just like the tank changes.

I agree with the two posts @zeroIndex has made. He's a person whose opinion I trust since he has been playing it since launch and has always been one of the best sorcerers on my server. What he is describing is pretty much the exact same results I have seen. Some rounds on specific stages are harder due to lack of burst heal from Overload crits, but the consistent heal helps a lot more with most of the fights, so it ends up feeling easier with the new surge honestly. Sure it won't be better for everyone, but if you are running ground aoes it is better than on Live. You need to run a resto staff like a lot of people are saying here.

Also, your "heals per second" post (that i didn't include in the quote because it was too long) is pretty misleading. It is just like how some healers can get 80k heals per second, because all they do is spam breath of life with high crit, even though people only require 2k heals, but are getting 30k, which inflates number immensely (same thing happens with dps, where you end up on dps tests doing more overall damage than the target has health, this happens quite often on Bloodspawn for example).
The big crit heals with overload and frags on live are pretty much just like that. They'll heal you for a sh*t ton, but you don't really need all that health most of the time. So I don't trust your point of view purely based on those numbers.

You did say "take the time to properly test things out instead of giving up before even trying and making threads like these" and since I made the thread and did so taking the time to test things out, how else am I supposed to take it?

I'm glad you trust the opinion of one of the best sorcerers in the game and you are certainly entitled to it, but I think you are underestimating how much his skill has enabled him to overcome what is less healing. Also, I disagree that my numbers are misleading. You say that a sorcerer won't need all that health ... most of the time. What if they do? You can't just discount that situation. Of course there is overflow, but overflow is not misleading because there will be times when those heals are needed.

What ZoS should do is modify surge so one morph works the way it does on PTS for people such as yourself who prefer it and find it easier and one morph to work the way it does on Live for people like myself who actually want the "misleading" burst heals. In the end, that way we do not have to debate which is better and simply allow people to opt for the one they deem suits their build best.

Jar_Ek

The thing is if zos set a flat heal rate on what works for "one of the best sorcerers in the game" - then about 99% of the sorcerers in the game are going to find it lacking as they are, by definition, not the top 1%.

As a stamina sorcerer I have tried critical surge and found it to be okay for general play and a bit weak for vma. Having said that I haven't spent an age adapting (and I omitted vigour in order to test dark deal which was a bad plan).

My gut feel is that if it gets tweaked upwards and ideally tied to a stat to mitigate the inevitable effects of power creep then it will be workable. I don't like it aesthetically - live felt more intuitive - but I will be able to work with it.

jknight201

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

Thank you showing how OP Crit Surge was and why they needed to fix it. Sorry but I can't WB something for 25k and get 15k heal back I still just get the 1k heal tick. Strife heals 25% of damage done by its own damage not any other abilities damage.

I'm sorry your having an issue with the ridiculous OP ability, but it;s about time the fixed it. Now I'm waiting for the Overload fix.

Thank you for showing that you don't play a sorc, so we can now ignore your input.

code65536

@Saturn

Have you gone on and tested how the new Surge feels in vMA and compared it to how it feels on Live? You know what they say about glass houses and stones.

I'll admit my testing is very thin--just looking at quick numbers on the first round. But @Joy_Division has run the entire arena. And, yes, so has @zeroIndex. And even though I've grouped with zero in-game but have never even met Joy in-game, I'm inclined to heed her words more. Why? Because her style of play more closely matches mine and is thus more relevant to me.

Let me start by telling you what the typical top-tier vMA sorc looks like: 2p Kena, all jewelry enchanted with Spell Damage, ward on the back bar, Force Pulse morph.

Now contrast that with my vMA sorc setup: 2p Nerien'eth (even though most enemies move out of my crystals), because I like that health bonus and I can't afford the 2p Kena sustain. One piece of jewelry enchanted with magicka recovery (though in recent runs, I've gone back to all-SD and instead dumped Bound Aegis for Elemental Drain to get my sustain), my ward is on my front bar, and I use Crushing Shock.

You see, my play style in vMA is more defensive; I don't go full-out offense. Instead of warding only when I have to, I prefer to preemptively ward so that if things go south, I don't have to rely on my reflexes being fast enough. This means keeping my ward on my front bar. This means sacrificing Blockade of Elements, leaving me only with my tiny easy-to-walk-out-of Liquid Lightning as my ground DoT (if I was running Blockade, the new Surge wouldn't be as bad, but that means moving my ward to the back bar). Anyway, without Blockade, stuff takes longer to die.

I'm also more conservative with my use of Overload because I've been burned in the past by situations where I drain my Overload, die, and then have to repeat that round without enough Overload. So I save my Overload only for emergencies and for a few specific spots; this means I don't get as much sustain back from Overloading, and, of course, stuff takes longer to die.

Doing less DPS also feeds back upon itself: If things take longer to die, they have more time to do damage to me. So I need to expend more resources keeping myself alive, which means I need more sustain (which why I don't run Kena and why I either sacrifice one SD enchant or sacrifice the 8% max magicka from Aegis for Ele Drain), but specing for more sustain means that I lose even more potential DPS.

The really, really good vMA players can afford to run full-offense because they've memorized all the spawn orders and locations. They stack so much DPS and prepare spawns with pre-charged FHAs that things die before they could do much harm. Dozens of vMA runs later, I still blank out on what comes next or mess up on where or when certain things spawn. It also requires reflexes and reactions that I frankly just don't have. So although I recognize how much faster and easier it would be if I went full-offense, I have to play more defensively.

For sorcs like @zeroIndex who can go full-offense, the changes to Surge and Ward don't really affect them. They can afford to run Blockade and reap the benefits of the new Surge's DoT heals, and their main form of defense has always been "kill stuff so fast that they don't have a chance to hurt me". High-scoring deathless vMA would still be possible even if ZOS completely eliminated Ward and Surge because that's basically what stamina players have been dealing with all this time (and there are Flawless 500K+ stamina runs). But that doesn't change the fact that, for most sorcs outside of that tiny elite, the changes to Ward and Surge will make vMA noticeably harder.

But I'm not one of those elite vMA runners. My best run on my sorc was 5 deaths (my best NB run was also 5 deaths) and I've never broken 500K on either character. I don't fight for top leaderboard spots; I'm content with doing well enough to consistently get on the weekly every week. And based on what I've seen and read, the same is true for @Joy_Division. Now, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that zero's point is invalid. But for every player like zero, there are many more like me who have vMA on farm, but who still rely on defensive play--the same kind of defensive play that the Ward and Surge changes severely hamper. (And for every player like me, there are many, many more who either struggle to consistently clear vMA or who still can't clear it.)

Anyway, my point is, context matters. It doesn't surprise me that zero says the sorc changes won't really affect him. I know how sorcs at the very top levels of vMA do their runs, and it doesn't surprise me one bit that they can get along just fine. But that is completely irrelevant to most of the sorcs who do vMA (and even more so the sorcs who are still working on getting their first clears).

jknight201

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Mush55 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

You keep saying sorcerers will have to adapt and they will be fine ... but you have not offered any ideas

I've adapted and it's a sad day my sorc is now my crafting mule and my mage blade is my main.

Is this the answer to the problem No, but looks like it's the only way forward at the moment....

Thanks Zos and PvPers for spoiling my sorc in pve.

Pretty much what I did, but then I remembered that I got other games and I just stopped playing eso to wait for Zenimax to maybe at least get one brain to share among all of them to fix sorcs someday.

^ This.

Since Zos doesn't seem to be listening to any feedback about the problems they have created with the sorc class, since my main is a sorc and I don't want to reroll everytime Zos' incompetence ruins a class and since there are a lot of other good games out there...

I'm commenting with the one thing Zos might listen to - my wallet; cancelling my sub, cutting back on play and waiting to see if they can fix this mess they created.

Joy_Division

Important!

I heavily edited the OP to account for a completed PTS Maelstrom run and some things which I have modified my analysis.

I still strongly believe the Surge change is a net nerf and inadequate compared to the self-sustain the other three classes have on their own, a situation I find problematic given that sorcerers no longer exclusively have a 20 second large pre-casted shield.

That being said, I have come to recognize that my belief is in large part derived from the way in which I play (I rely heavily on abilities that DPS+heal on every class and in every facet of the game). It would be crazy for me to insist that those posters who have remarked favorably on the new Surge are somehow "wrong." It is possible to have different experiences and prefer different morphs. In fact, ideally all ESO's skills & morphs should be as such.

So rather than claim that the PTS surge is "completely inadequate," I am going to suggest ZoS offer sorcerers the choice which Surge morph they would rather have and better suits their play style. In short, have the base version give major brutality and major sorcery (it was always a waste for it not to) and have morph one be the PTS version that grants more consistent heals without the burst and morph two to be the Live version favoring high direct damage bursts.

I believe this would pretty much make most folks happy.

Grao

Joy_Division wrote: »

Important!

I heavily edited the OP to account for a completed PTS Maelstrom run and some things which I have modified my analysis.

I still strongly believe the Surge change is a net nerf and inadequate compared to the self-sustain the other three classes have on their own, a situation I find problematic given that sorcerers no longer exclusively have a 20 second large pre-casted shield.

That being said, I have come to recognize that my belief is in large part derived from the way in which I play (I rely heavily on abilities that DPS+heal on every class and in every facet of the game). It would be crazy for me to insist that those posters who have remarked favorably on the new Surge are somehow "wrong." It is possible to have different experiences and prefer different morphs. In fact, ideally all ESO's skills & morphs should be as such.

So rather than claim that the PTS surge is "completely inadequate," I am going to suggest ZoS offer sorcerers the choice which Surge morph they would rather have and better suits their play style. In short, have the base version give major brutality and major sorcery (it was always a waste for it not to) and have morph one be the PTS version that grants more consistent heals without the burst and morph two to be the Live version favoring high direct damage bursts.

I believe this would pretty much make most folks happy.

Hey @Joy_Division, stepping a little away from Surge as ZOS is still messing with numbers for those abilities, what do you think Sorcerers need to make their kits more flexible and increase their overall DPS and Utility for PvE? ^^

Joy_Division

Grao wrote: »

show previous quotes

Joy_Division wrote: »

Important!

I heavily edited the OP to account for a completed PTS Maelstrom run and some things which I have modified my analysis.

I still strongly believe the Surge change is a net nerf and inadequate compared to the self-sustain the other three classes have on their own, a situation I find problematic given that sorcerers no longer exclusively have a 20 second large pre-casted shield.

That being said, I have come to recognize that my belief is in large part derived from the way in which I play (I rely heavily on abilities that DPS+heal on every class and in every facet of the game). It would be crazy for me to insist that those posters who have remarked favorably on the new Surge are somehow "wrong." It is possible to have different experiences and prefer different morphs. In fact, ideally all ESO's skills & morphs should be as such.

So rather than claim that the PTS surge is "completely inadequate," I am going to suggest ZoS offer sorcerers the choice which Surge morph they would rather have and better suits their play style. In short, have the base version give major brutality and major sorcery (it was always a waste for it not to) and have morph one be the PTS version that grants more consistent heals without the burst and morph two to be the Live version favoring high direct damage bursts.

I believe this would pretty much make most folks happy.

Hey @Joy_Division, stepping a little away from Surge as ZOS is still messing with numbers for those abilities, what do you think Sorcerers need to make their kits more flexible and increase their overall DPS and Utility for PvE? ^^

I think that would be best handled by starting a new topic. Real quick I would say:

• The new Negate should help.
• I do not seriously raid on Live so I am probably not the best person to ask for DPS (though I do not have as much of a problem lacking a class-based spammable, though I do have a problem that Curse does not derives benefit of DoTs).
• Improving Encase and Storm Atronach would be the areas I'd focus on as far as utility
• Fire and forget summon rather than a toggle would be a nice addition.

CP5

One thing I feel I should mention, Wrobel mentioned something along the lines that they felt sorcerer's could go on the offense and defense at the same time, hence the shield nerf, but does anyone else find it funny that surge and blood magic both require you to be on the attack to get healed? Aside from those you have exchange and the pet heals, neither I've seen praised for their ability to keep you alive, so the class on a whole was designed around the idea that you stay alive while attacking rather than falling back to recover. Any opinion on that?