My PTS sorcerer experience in Maelstrom Arena: Surge & Shields

code65536

Solariken wrote: »

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

Congratulations! You've identified the one area on Live where sorcs are decent.

The fact is, in group PvE, sorcs of either flavor have long had the worst DPS and the worst group utility, with Overload masking over these problems in the short battles you see in 4-man content.

They're good soloists, though, which is why they excelled at vMA and in PvP, and that was the one redeeming area of strength of this class.

But now two of their core skills for soloing have been nerfed into the ground: Ward and Surge. You can see it in this thread where someone who has Flawless on her sorc now dies multiple times in just the first three rounds of vMA. After the DB update, even a magicka DK (arguably the hardest class to do vMA with on Live) will have an easier time than a sorc: the new Harness Magicka is just like the sorc's Ward, and they too can Crushing Shock from range while doing something that sorc's can't: flapping away ranged attacks (the very first video of a mDK completing vMA, by sneaky, was a Crushing-Shock-from-range build).

If these nerfs to a sorc's solo abilities had come coupled with substantial buffs and fixes to a sorc's ability outside of solo, then I doubt we'd see as much anger over this change. But that's not the case: these nerfs are unmitigated, hitting the class in the one area that they were good at and leaving the class more broken than ever before.

You, on the other hand, having not played as a sorc beyond vMA and a little bit of PvP, are unable to see the bigger picture. So, no, you don't understand the class, you are not qualified to speak about the class as a whole, and shouldn't be so shocked that others label you as ignorant and rightfully direct their frustration at you.

Grao

code65536 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

Congratulations! You've identified the one area on Live where sorcs are decent.

The fact is, in group PvE, sorcs of either flavor have long had the worst DPS and the worst group utility, with Overload masking over these problems in the short battles you see in 4-man content.

They're good soloists, though, which is why they excelled at vMA and in PvP, and that was the one redeeming area of strength of this class.

But now two of their core skills for soloing have been nerfed into the ground: Ward and Surge. You can see it in this thread where someone who has Flawless on her sorc now dies multiple times in just the first three rounds of vMA. After the DB update, even a magicka DK (arguably the hardest class to do vMA with on Live) will have an easier time than a sorc: the new Harness Magicka is just like the sorc's Ward, and they too can Crushing Shock from range while doing something that sorc's can't: flapping away ranged attacks (the very first video of a mDK completing vMA, by sneaky, was a Crushing-Shock-from-range build).

If these nerfs to a sorc's solo abilities had come coupled with substantial buffs and fixes to a sorc's ability outside of solo, then I doubt we'd see as much anger over this change. But that's not the case: these nerfs are unmitigated, hitting the class in the one area that they were good at and leaving the class more broken than ever before.

You, on the other hand, having not played as a sorc beyond vMA and a little bit of PvP, are unable to see the bigger picture. So, no, you don't understand the class, you are not qualified to speak about the class as a whole, and shouldn't be so shocked that others label you as ignorant and rightfully direct their frustration at you.

Thank you so much for understanding...

Solariken

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

Another complete idiot that thinks because Zenimax is destroying sorcerers they must be ubber overpowered.

I am sorry, I am so sorry, but NO. You don't have a sorcerer at max level so you don't have the right to come here and give your opinion as if you understood the class at all! Max out your sorcerer first, go through all trials, not VMA and see how well you will do with the class that at the same time has the lowest Magicka and Stamina DPS, can't tank nearly as well as other classes, has their only class heal tied to a *** pet that dies to every *** AoE and that has near to ZERO utility.

Then... After you actually have experienced how Sorcerers perform in PvE... Then you can come here and talk smack. If you are still able to say sorcerers are fine and Zenimax is right to nerf them again and again... then you talk. Otherwise, shut up >.<

Calm down, @Grao, insults aren't necessary unless you want a forum ban. I understand your passion for the issue but don't derail the thread with personal attacks. I feel like completing vMA and doing a significant amount of PvP on my mSorc gives me some klout in the discussion, but it's fine if you disagree. I personally don't care about the DPS pissing match that is PvE trials, but I can see why sorc balancing is such a bear for ZOS because it's hard to buff DPS/self-healing output with a class that possesses so much utility in PvP. And in PvP, Sorcs will continue to thrive after the patch goes live.

What I want is a ability slightly more powerful than Force Pulse with a melee and a ranged morphs to be added to the Dark Magic tree for sorcerers, that would help our sustain, the damage of the ability could be regulated to put our DPS in level with other magicka classes and it would not affect PvP too heavily as it is a sustain DPS ability, not burst DPS. How *** hard is to give us that? Every other class has a spammable of their own...

Now this is something with which I agree entirely. There are some things that all classes should have in their toolkit, and a spammable DPS ability is one of those things.

Grao

LOL 5 sorcerer threads with about 2000 posts with all put together and no answer... What do they choose to answer to?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2985195#Comment_2985195

This. Werewolf fur recoloring...

Joy_Division

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

Are they trolls? Or are they human beings who are overly emotional because they are unhappy with the direction of the game? I get it: ESO is a game, not real life, first-world problems, etc. But many of these people play the game every day so it actually is a part of their real life, and have emotional attachments to their characters. It isn't easy to have invested 2 years and thousands of hours of playtime, stare at a nerf, and listen to other people say something to the effect that if they were "good" or "skilled," then they can do just fine. For one, I am prepared to cut them some slack even if I do not agree with their perspectives about game balance or think they are overreacting. Unless I *really* think they are wrong, in which case I better have some damn good objective evidence to support me, I will allow these people to vent off steam and not argue with them.

I think I am absolutely being fair in comparing the self-healing between the classes. Even with all the mechanics in vMA that force players to move and re position, on my templar, DK, and NB, I do *not* need a damage shield to complete the entire arena. This isn't easy PvE garbage, it is end-game content that has spawned more "plz nerf" threads than Radiant Destruction. Even if it is possible for a sorcerer to make the same claim - I am not aware anyone has even tried - it would be *much* more difficult because they do not have the self healing capability as the other classes.

OK, yeah when Osmium first dropped, people remember sorcerers having the best leaderboard times. Faded and inaccurate memories is hardly evidence. And irrelevant to my point. Those sorcerers with their 20 second hardened ward and 10K burst surge heals are *not* going to be in the Dark Brotherhood. Nightblades were not lacking in leaderboard representation. And just because templars arrived later on the boards, does not mean they are somehow a inferior class. I'm not saying bring the old sorcerers back. I am saying if ZoS is going to take away those two things, they need *something* in return because what they have is inadequate for the task at hand.

You keep saying sorcerers will have to adapt and they will be fine ... but you have not offered any ideas, let alone proof, that with the tools they will have on the DB that they have the capability to do so and be just as good as a templar, DK, or NB in vMA. How do you know? You haven't even downloaded the PTS. And you are frustrated that emotional people aren't being objective or fair to you? I'm not sure what you expected.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

You keep saying sorcerers will have to adapt and they will be fine ... but you have not offered any ideas, let alone proof, that with the tools they will have on the DB that they have the capability to do so and be just as good as a templar, DK, or NB in vMA. How do you know? You haven't even downloaded the PTS. And you are frustrated that emotional people aren't being objective or fair to you? I'm not sure what you expected.

And that´s the problem i have with most people not actually playing sorcs telling us the class will be fine. I admit i´ve mostly made assumptions during the first two pts weeks myself.
Sadly after having tested my build with the EU transfer pretty much everything i´ve assumed about how the nerfs would affect my personal playstyle has come true.

With the latest surge changes my "well that´s not good for my build" actually went to "wow that´s really bad".

I´ve not played with harness, i´ve not played with deto nor dawnbreaker and ocassionally even without curse on a high crit build utilizing thief. This won´t be vaible anymore. I know because i´ve tested it.
My other build was double resto with trapping webs as a spam DPS so that has been out the window with the first pts notes.

So when people come telling me and others to just wait it out or git gud i can just shake my head. I´ve tested it and while the 100% streamlined cookie cutter might still be somewhat vaible the little room left for customisation the class still offered is gone and that´s what i´m upset about.

ManDraKE

code65536 wrote: »

You, on the other hand, having not played as a sorc beyond vMA and a little bit of PvP, are unable to see the bigger picture. So, no, you don't understand the class, you are not qualified to speak about the class as a whole, and shouldn't be so shocked that others label you as ignorant and rightfully direct their frustration at you.

Aeaeren

jknight201 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Very thoughtful post, but I'm not sure why you paired a legitimate vMA sorcerer efficacy test with an obviously garbage item set, lol.

Also, the nerf hammer did come down hard on Surge and shields, but the sky certainly hasn't fallen and I am confident that Sorcs will be able to adapt. Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode.

Sorcs were never "maximally" effective in self-healing or resource management. They were only adequate in DPS, even when in full-on DPS mode. These changes mean that just to survive, sorcs will have to allocate even more of their scarce resources to staying alive - just what you want in a DPS class. And exactly what damage mitigation? You do realize this is a class that is forced to wear light armor (mag sorcs), right?

So the situation now is that you need to be moderately skilled to play a sorc and compete with a scrub, who's just spamming Sweeps on his Templar. Yeah, that's going to be fun - and a great way to keep players that have a sorc as their main.

Yesterday I seen a Templar just Jesus beaming everything. No other skills at all.

Rune_Relic

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The duration on ward and all shields has left me in an in between state, while I despise the toxicity of damage shields and their ability to stack, I also understand the duality of importance between PvE and PvP. In PvE damage shields do not save you from poor play completely, but they do buffer your ability to stay on the offensive or recuperate from bad RNG or personal mistakes. In vMA and vMoL especially, damage shields are the only line of defense many meta builds have against the absurd new mechanics ZoS has implimented, such as 8-12k basic attacks from mobs or untelegraphed mechanics such as Void Sphere (Rakhaat) or Ice Breath (round 5 Mages). In PvE there are moments where experience and well timed guesses/intuition can help you, knowing the wind up time on enemy animations and whatnot, but other times you are given NO reaction time to mechanics, so keeping up Harness or Ward as a buffer is a must. Now with a 6 second duration, this will be impossible, as you cannot be expected to keep up the shield 24/7, as that places heavy DPS via operational costs, as well as stressed resources. The only way now for some instances, is if you can see into the future and know when that randomly targeted mechanic will hit you 2 or 3 times and kill you, so you can apply your shield in a small window. I understand the balance change reasoning for cutting the duration on shields, and by principle I agree with it, but I know that it doesn't only affect PvP. The duration on ward and all shields (with the exception of Healing Ward, for obvious reasons) should be increased while in Non Player interactions, or else we're going to see a meta shift where everyone stacks health again so they can avoid mechanics that instantly kill players. This is extremely bad for the game, as it promotes shoddy game play and lazy problem solving. By taking away one of the very few options PvE'rs have to deal with absurd damage mechanics that lack proper counter play, you have effectively killed the Risk Reward mechanic and smart play by promoting HP stacking instead.

And yet block and stamina regen was nerfed with the exact same issues applying.
Is the nerf to stamina regen when blocking any more severe than the nerf to sorc shields ?

Stamina tanks were thoroughly killed.
Now magicka tanks will follow the same path...even the DD flavour of tank

code65536

@Joy_Division Sorry for going a bit off-topic with this question, but out of curiosity, have you tried vMA on the PTS on a Templar to see if the removal of double-dipping crit heals makes a big difference?

Keeperz

Great post hope the devs are watching and revert all these horrible changes

Duration on sorc wards has never been a problem it's the stacking which is now worse
Surge needs to stay how it is on live

Overwatch seems like a better choice if these changes go live

Attackopsn

I play on the ps4 NA server, and I currently get sub 43 minute runs (564k+) on sorcerer inside of VMA. Passive healing is imperative for staying offensive and aggressive in vma, something that Power Surge did very well in bursts for Magicka Sorcerer compensating for their lack of other forms of viable HoTs. The current live version of Power Surge is not only a class defining and interesting component to Sorcerer, but arguably the most important survivability ability available to the class. The ability to heal while dealing damage at this magnitude in my opinion was more important than even hardened ward (considering the duration nerf), and by destroying this ability's usefulness you destroy the Sorcerer's ability to be as competitive as the other classes inside of VMA without a resto.

Grao

Attackopsn wrote: »

I play on the ps4 NA server, and I currently get sub 43 minute runs (564k+) on sorcerer inside of VMA. Passive healing is imperative for staying offensive and aggressive in vma, something that Power Surge did very well in bursts for Magicka Sorcerer compensating for their lack of other forms of viable HoTs. The current live version of Power Surge is not only a class defining and interesting component to Sorcerer, but arguably the most important survivability ability available to the class. The ability to heal while dealing damage at this magnitude in my opinion was more important than even hardened ward (considering the duration nerf), and by destroying this ability's usefulness you destroy the Sorcerer's ability to be as competitive as the other classes inside of VMA without a resto.

Yup, ZOS is not happy enough tying as to one staff, they want to tie us to two...

Joy_Division

code65536 wrote: »

@Joy_Division Sorry for going a bit off-topic with this question, but out of curiosity, have you tried vMA on the PTS on a Templar to see if the removal of double-dipping crit heals makes a big difference?

@code65536

Actually that's very relevant. And I did. Tonight I went on the PTS and created a templar with the same 300 CP template and poor gear (Galerion's Revenge), just to be sure the reason why I was struggling was due to the changes in the sorcerer and not that I was playing sub-optimal builds. I ran the first three stages like I did with the sorcerer.

Even with these handicaps, my templar run was significantly easier. The sorcerer was dying because of the changes made to the class, not because I was using a template.

I did die one time on the Lamia Queen when I was perma-snared by a strangler that had I been on Live, I'm pretty sure I would have survived. I had a purple weapon, 200 less CPs, and a 5th set armor bonus that literally was never used so those are factors why I overestimated my ability to simply jab her to death, [strikethrough]however I do think you are wise to feel apprehensive about the removal of the crit heals (with the crazy amount of stacking heal debuffs are allowed to double and triple dip, I find this a dubious change on ZoS's part).[/strikethrough].

Edit: Odd. Puncturing Sweeps does not critically heal. I knew that lol but forgot. Well, templars don;t have to worry about this change You NBs and DKs, however ...

acw37162

@Joy_Division Re: Solo World Lamia Boss

I had Avery similar experience talking a test template stam sorc into Orsinium facing off against Carthac the Abomonation with the sole purpose of testing crit surge.

It would be fair to say I find this iteration of crit surge underwhelming compared to live servers.

I just don't like it.

I can't speak to magica sorc struggles at all as I don't run one or have an opinion but my opinion on crit surge for a stam build is about as high as you have it for a magica build maybe slightly lower.

Minalan

Sad all this work and feedback goes to nothing, none of them even promised to look into this.

cschwingeb14_ESO

I also took a template sorc into vMSA last night (5x elegance, 3x wisdom, 2x kena, maelstrom destro/resto, thief stone, 15,100 health, 20k Ward, all gear purple including weapons!). My live setup is fully decked out, with 501 CP and DW nirnhoned on the back bar, but the setup was the same other than swapping in mutagen for fury

It took about an hour to get through arenas 1-5 before I had to log.. (My top score on live is around 480k with 5 deaths)

It was tough, and I died a lot. But I was not usually dying due to surge changes. It was due to crappy gear, low health and low CP causing my DPS to be very low, and the occasional shield dropping. No matter how low my health, a 6s Ward is long enough to get 10k in surge heals, which is enough for vMSA

However, vMSA is an experience where I can control the rate of surge procs by spamming crushing shock/la weave and maximize surge heals. Nowhere else is like that

Did I have to spam the f#@k out of Ward? Yes. The best strategy was to hit Ward as soon as the wind blew. This caused serious mana issues. Also, Ward barely lasts long enough to rebuff

I'm still baffled by the "double-whammy" of surge and Ward changes

Archmage1

Fix Sorcs ZOS. The DB DLC will ruin Sorc's already low DPS, shields/suge nerf is just too much. How is this considered BALANCED?

Reorx_Holybeard

I'm still unsure why they made Surge a flat value and a relatively low one at that. It might be fine if Sorcs were the only class having a shield but now it seems everyone has access to a shield now so I would expect similar self-healing among the classes.

I did some quick tests on Live with a few of my characters by fighting Mammoths/Giants in Wrothgar:

• Magicka Templar = 4-7k self-healing depending on exact spells used (Sweeps + Entropy + Ritual)
• Magicka Nightblade = 4-5k self-healing (Funnel Health + Refreshing Path)
• Magicka Sorcerer = 4-6k self-healing (Surge)
• Magicka Dragonknight = ?
• Stamina Dragonknight = 2k self-healing (Rally + Blood Craze)

Ignoring my poor stamina DK all other classes have around 5k self-healing on Live. Can anyone with a magicka DK chime in to say if they are capable of hitting that HPS solo?

The nice thing about self-healing now on Live with a magicka Temp/NB/Sorc is that it mostly scales with your character stats and number of mobs you fight. A stronger DPS results in stronger self-heals which makes sense. Templar/NB self-healing grows very quickly with the number of mobs you're fighting to such an extent that it is typically easy to survive the more mobs you attack. By using a flat self-healing with a cooldown you are denying both the ability to scale with character stats and the number of mobs fighting.

With a flat Surge value of 2k and a cooldown of 1 second that limits the self-healing of a sorc on PTS to a maximum of 2-3k...about half of what it is on Live. In terms of what I'd like Surge to actually be the preferences in order are:

• Make the self-healing scale to be similar to current Live values with a 1 second ICD and work with all spells.
• Keep it as it is on PTS but with a higher flat value (around double would match Live values of Surge).

Dyride

@Reorx_Holybeard Well your Stam DK should be hitting higher HPS with Igneous Shield+Rally+Bloodcraze to get the Major Mending Buff.

If Surge gave Minor Mending, then maybe a flat heal could work, but I would much prefer a mechanic that scales based on damage dealt.

Makkir

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Joy_Division

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

This has not changed. It's a 15% chance to return the amount of health done on a basic attack. That's weak.

Hmm ... Overload counts as a basic attack and thus one could potentially get something like a 25K heal, but that's less than one out of six attacks ... that's praying to RNG and not much mathematically better than you'd get with surge in the long run.

If I were a sorcerer determined to "adapt" to these changes as opposed to do something more enjoyable such as find another MMO or roll with an alt, I would try to maximize the PTS version of surge to get those heals on cooldown. Ironically stamina is better suited for this with more access to better DoTs (Hurricane, Blood Craze, Poison Injection, Blade Cloak, the heal morph of Rapid Strikes, Volley). On a magicka build, one might try to be like a DK with Boundless Storm, Wall of Elements, and Lightning Flood, but I still think Healing Ward is necessary for Burst Heals and this isn't playing to the strength of the Sorcerer Class.

I'll give this one honest try on Live, but if this is trying to jam a square peg through a round hole, I am going to restrict logging on my sorcerer to PvP.

Xsorus

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Ummm no....

Surge is basically a 1.5k passive Heal for the Duration of the spell (Basically a Hot), its 3k if you're doing the Stamina Sorcs one

Degeneration is an absolutely *** heal..

Makkir

My bad, I thought I read Degen has changed... guess not

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Ummm no....

Surge is basically a 1.5k passive Heal for the Duration of the spell (Basically a Hot), its 3k if you're doing the Stamina Sorcs one

Degeneration is an absolutely *** heal..

Surge is a *** heal too next patch, maybe slightly better than degeneration though that's not much to brag about....

Xsorus

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Ummm no....

Surge is basically a 1.5k passive Heal for the Duration of the spell (Basically a Hot), its 3k if you're doing the Stamina Sorcs one

Degeneration is an absolutely *** heal..

Surge is a *** heal too next patch, maybe slightly better than degeneration though that's not much to brag about....

Slightly better? Are you joking? Surge is a 30 second duration heal that can go off every second depending on your crit rate and heal for 1.5 to 3k a pop (which can crit

Degeneration is an awful hot that tics like 2 times in the 12 seconds of its duration, and as a small 15% chance to heal you for 100% of your light attack damage.....It in no way competes with Surge..anyone who says it does clearly needs to actually log into PTS and actually test something before running his mouth.

Drummerx04

Grao wrote: »

LOL 5 sorcerer threads with about 2000 posts with all put together and no answer... What do they choose to answer to?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2985195#Comment_2985195

This. Werewolf fur recoloring...

What the actual ***?

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Ummm no....

Surge is basically a 1.5k passive Heal for the Duration of the spell (Basically a Hot), its 3k if you're doing the Stamina Sorcs one

Degeneration is an absolutely *** heal..

Surge is a *** heal too next patch, maybe slightly better than degeneration though that's not much to brag about....

Slightly better? Are you joking? Surge is a 30 second duration heal that can go off every second depending on your crit rate and heal for 1.5 to 3k a pop (which can crit

Degeneration is an awful hot that tics like 2 times in the 12 seconds of its duration, and as a small 15% chance to heal you for 100% of your light attack damage.....It in no way competes with Surge..anyone who says it does clearly needs to actually log into PTS and actually test something before running his mouth.

Ironically if you really need the heal (in pvp that is) entropy is already better than surge on the live when playing with base critchance. It heals less - yes. But it heals when you want it to heal.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Xsorus wrote: »

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

@Joy_Division Can you check out the value on Degeneration if you have access to PTS today? Is the heal better than Surge?

Ummm no....

Surge is basically a 1.5k passive Heal for the Duration of the spell (Basically a Hot), its 3k if you're doing the Stamina Sorcs one

Degeneration is an absolutely *** heal..

Surge is a *** heal too next patch, maybe slightly better than degeneration though that's not much to brag about....

Slightly better? Are you joking? Surge is a 30 second duration heal that can go off every second depending on your crit rate and heal for 1.5 to 3k a pop (which can crit

Degeneration is an awful hot that tics like 2 times in the 12 seconds of its duration, and as a small 15% chance to heal you for 100% of your light attack damage.....It in no way competes with Surge..anyone who says it does clearly needs to actually log into PTS and actually test something before running his mouth.

Never said it could replace surge, just saying that surge is still bloody awful in the state it's in on the PTS.

Septimus_Magna

With reduced shield duration, weaker Surge healing and reduced dmg (less skills scale with Thaumaturge) sorcs are nerfed way too hard.

Im curious what sorc builds the ZOS testers run for vMA because a skill with healing like this shouldnt even make it PTS.

The average healing on live is roughly 2000 HPS, which isnt that much to begin with.
The average healing on PTS is roughly 200 HPS, which is next to nothing.

This is a straight 90% healing reduction!

Just when you thing the knee-jerk buffs/nerfs are over (delicate 4,5% dmg reduction on Incap Strike for example) magicka sorc healing (which was already tied to dmg-output and critical hits) gets reduced by a whopping 90%..