My PTS sorcerer experience in Maelstrom Arena: Surge & Shields

Digiman

Grao wrote: »

This threads are all a useless waste of time. ZOS doesn't care and they will prove it on friday when @Wrobel answers Class Skill questions and ignore every sorcerer related question. They won't even be taking questions we've been asking here on the forum, according to @ZOS_GinaBruno...

So yay, we get further ignored...

Oh I wish you were wrong, but I am pretty sure he will just dodge questions to stamina sorcerers instead.

Sorcerers will end being forced into a freaking overhaul with the problems the changes Wrobel has made to this class, because never have I seen a paradox of ideals where you wanted combat to be resource driven without Cool Downs only to slab one on bolt escape while forcing the class to have pets active to make up for instant death they will suffer because of short shields you drove them into playing after you ruined Light Armor and made those who wore it protect nothing at all.

The class was going to be break, the moment they decided to change shields all the bandaids and tape just came apart.

On the bright side they aren't completely out, if you want to compete for DPS just go stamina.

Joy_Division

***********Update*********

I ran vMA of my PTS sorcerer again using quality gear (Julianos) and, after more than three miserable hours, managed to beat this. I will be updating and modifying the OP to reflect what I feel are more accurate assessments.

Even though I beat it, I stand by everything I said in the OP. Indeed I feel more confident in those assessments. To those, I would add

• The magicka drain is REAL. Even with two glyphs of recovery, I still found myself constantly resorting to Energy Overload, the haste sigil, and heavy attacks just to refill my resources.
• I was losing magicka even though I was using the my shield in a completely reactionary manner. That is, by default I did *not* have up Conjured Ward; I used it much the same way as a templar would use breath of life.
• If I had to do this again - and to be clear I won't because I've had trips to the dentist more enjoyable - I would use Harness Magicka instead of the Sorcerer's own shield in light of the resource issue. It is smaller, but as the shield is being used in a reactionary manner, it doesn't have to be big, merely keep you alive.
• You are going to want 2 DoTs active on something at all times. This is inconvenient as sorcerers don't have an on target DoT. Boundless Storm is useful in this respect.
• I found a restoration staff essential for HoTs to supplement the modest, yet steady Surge heals and sometimes Healing Ward is the only thing that can save a sorcerer.
• To make room for the stuff I did not necessarily want to run, that meant no mines, no bound aegis, no dual swords.
• Some of the more difficult pulls were hell and I felt a number of times I only got through by RNG and good fortune for all the talk how this will lead to more "skillful" play.
• The Crematorium Guards were particularly annoying. If it's just the daedroth, a sorcs with HoTs and DoTs (to ensure surge procs) can take them out. However, on the latter stages when the Boss and adds are hitting you for 5K as well, I found it necessary for my sanity to resort to using a power sigil.
• If you have Overload up and at low health, the potential for frustration is too high. There is no way to refresh your HoT, let alone heal and only so much damage you can shield through.

I wont say Surge is "completely inadequate," rather it is "inadequate" since I did beat it. Beat it by using skills not because I wanted to, but because of the arbitrary mechanics of Surge, specifically the cooldown and flat number. This combination is, IMHO, bad game design. I should never feel forced to run certain abilities to make some other unexciting and quite frankly not very good ability perform it's function. It's a little different if an ability is so strong, so good, or some interesting that I want to run it, but trust me here, Mutagen, Boundless Storm, and Surge are not. The build I was using was, in short, not fun. Coupled that with not optimal, and that is why I hate this change and will opt to use another class for difficult content in which I have to sustain myself.

Some people are still telling sorcs just to run higher health, adapt, and they will be fine. Since NBs, DKs, and Templars, done not need to do either or those and are already more than fine, I find it unreasonable and selfish to tell sorcerers, "You are OP, deal with it." I did deal with it, and the game-play experience was *not fun*. I will update my original post to better present the data I compiled during the vMA run this weekend and then I am done with this. Come the DB patch, if ZoS doesn't make any changes, I will simply log onto one of my other three classes where I can actually have fun doing challenging content. As it was, playing a sorcerer is pretty boring in my estimation. That class desperate needs more options and this patch is giving them less.

Digiman

@Joy_Division Did you try using a pet? If so, which one? They increased max health by 8% if you had one up. Did it make a difference?

Joy_Division

Xsorus wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Its no more OP than any other ability that heals and does damage. You're trolling, right?

@Hadan_of_Rift

Wait what? Ok please enlighten me of other damage heals that 1) you can use another ability and still get a heal? 2) that heals for the amount that crit surge did?

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Hadan_of_Rift wrote: »

Thank you showing how OP Crit Surge was and why they needed to fix it. Sorry but I can't WB something for 25k and get 15k heal back I still just get the 1k heal tick. Strife heals 25% of damage done by its own damage not any other abilities damage.

I'm sorry your having an issue with the ridiculous OP ability, but it;s about time the fixed it. Now I'm waiting for the Overload fix.

Another person that never played a sorcerer in his life commenting about things he knows nothing at all about, good job making yourself look bad, lol.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't play a Sorc. I have 2 Sorcs; Stamina and Magicka, and Crit Surge was extremely OP, just like Overload is OP.

Just like any sane stamina 2-h player would admit Wrecking Blow was OP. It doesn't mean you don't take advantage of it, but it doesn't make it any less OP.

Is this a joke? Surge OP? For a 15K heal?

burning embers is a dot......it in no way compares to passively gaining a massive heal everytime ya crit with Crystal Frags

Did you just call a 10K crystal Frag heal "massive" in light of a 100K Burning Embers heal?

Burning Embers is a skill I can cast every single global cooldown and get a heal on demand higher than what PTS surge will grant me. Or if I don't need heal, I can let it tick and build for even a higher burst I can have on demand. No need to crit. No need to have another skill active. No need to wait for an occasion Frag proc. A DK can murder the Crematorium Guards in vMA just with this skill alone.

Septimus_Magna

Lucky28 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

no it is bad. because it's a dull/boring change to the way the class plays. They could make it heal me for 10K a pop and i'd still prefer the surge on current live, because this change is boring.

i mean if stamina sorcs prefer this then at least leave power surge the way it is.

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

NativeJoe

@Erraln

Just throwing this out there.. just finished watching the entire video. 540k on live. Literally top 200 players in the world doing VMA...dying repeatedly. If you can't get this squared away using BIS gear...What chance do the rest of these mortals stand?

I can see your well trained in vma, not rusty at all. u don't panic when your shields are down, u anticipate every mechanic, and your hands appear to not be sweaty and ur not nervous at all.

Now consider the average skill level of players in this game...
Now consider out of thousands you are in the top 200 (EU/Na scores) in the world.
You completing it with 1 life remaining, presumably your first run you had 0 left.... gives what hope to the rest of us? lol

I mean consider how us average/above average players play x.x
https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/53483844

You claim sorcs are not dead. Okay. I agree. but they are on life support by the looks of it. x.x

(ps. did u find the easter egg in my video? check out the templars shields...still can't figure out how he's doing it x.x)

Digiman

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I expect that's why they have him on the special #2 they announced for today. Eitherway you are right, there is nothing they can do to change it.

Sadly what this may mean is a focused class overhaul of sorcerers for next DLC because of how badly they screwed up the class. Sadly that will be months.

Derra

Erraln wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Maily directed @Erraln
Why is it ok for surge to not be sufficient as the only heal in the arena yet it´s ok on NB and Templar that funnel health (not even swallow morph) and puncturing sweeps + ritual are sufficient healing.
Why should sorc have to run more defense than other classes and also slot a resto staff for that purpose?

I didn't imply it to be, but I don't claim to know Zeni's intended self healing setups. The major complaint about Sorc defensive ability for the last year is that our offense stats fed it directly, and that seems to be what has been altered in DB. There is no mistaking these changes for anything but a nerf. My main drive to reply was centered on demonstrating the thought that the changes didn't ruin the class.

Oh but if you´re looking at the top of the leaderboards (havent run the arena on my sorc since march admittedly) and only did non complete PTS runs because of the time investments i can very much assure you the class is ruined (because i know the time i need to have when completing every round to get a good score).

From a competetive point of view i don´t see a way of sorcerers competing with any of the current to 10 or maybe even top 20 scores.
So what the changes mean: You can still complete the arena if you´re good enough.
The top players can´t go for score anymore without a leaderboard reset.
Players struggeling to complete it won´t stand a chance anymore.
I think it´s bad any way you´re looking at it.

Also offensive stats for every other class still directly modify their ability to selfheal. Only sorcerers have been changed in that regard to only have a flat selfheal value accessible. How does that make any sense.

Last there isn´t even that much of a difference between classes to justify a 70% duration nerf for one classes main defence coupled with a 50 to 75% efficiency nerf to their main selfheal.
The times of the top runs for each class are within less of 10% of each other - fasted to slowest.
It does not make sense for one class to be nerfed this way while all other classes performance is getting enhanced directly or passively at the same time.

Minalan

Digiman wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I expect that's why they have him on the special #2 they announced for today. Eitherway you are right, there is nothing they can do to change it.

Sadly what this may mean is a focused class overhaul of sorcerers for next DLC because of how badly they screwed up the class. Sadly that will be months.

Sad part is they could undo one change and at least leave us PLAYABLE.

Grao

Joy_Division wrote: »

***********Update*********

I ran vMA of my PTS sorcerer again using quality gear (Julianos) and, after more than three miserable hours, managed to beat this. I will be updating and modifying the OP to reflect what I feel are more accurate assessments.

Even though I beat it, I stand by everything I said in the OP. Indeed I feel more confident in those assessments. To those, I would add

• The magicka drain is REAL. Even with two glyphs of recovery, I still found myself constantly resorting to Energy Overload, the haste sigil, and heavy attacks just to refill my resources.
• I was losing magicka even though I was using the my shield in a completely reactionary manner. That is, by default I did *not* have up Conjured Ward; I used it much the same way as a templar would use breath of life.
• If I had to do this again - and to be clear I won't because I've had trips to the dentist more enjoyable - I would use Harness Magicka instead of the Sorcerer's own shield in light of the resource issue. It is smaller, but as the shield is being used in a reactionary manner, it doesn't have to be big, merely keep you alive.
• You are going to want 2 DoTs active on something at all times. This is inconvenient as sorcerers don't have an on target DoT. Boundless Storm is useful in this respect.
• I found a restoration staff essential for HoTs to supplement the modest, yet steady Surge heals and sometimes Healing Ward is the only thing that can save a sorcerer.
• To make room for the stuff I did not necessarily want to run, that meant no mines, no bound aegis, no dual swords.
• Some of the more difficult pulls were hell and I felt a number of times I only got through by RNG and good fortune for all the talk how this will lead to more "skillful" play.
• The Crematorium Guards were particularly annoying. If it's just the daedroth, a sorcs with HoTs and DoTs (to ensure surge procs) can take them out. However, on the latter stages when the Boss and adds are hitting you for 5K as well, I found it necessary for my sanity to resort to using a power sigil.
• If you have Overload up and at low health, the potential for frustration is too high. There is no way to refresh your HoT, let alone heal and only so much damage you can shield through.

I wont say Surge is "completely inadequate," rather it is "inadequate" since I did beat it. Beat it by using skills not because I wanted to, but because of the arbitrary mechanics of Surge, specifically the cooldown and flat number. This combination is, IMHO, bad game design. I should never feel forced to run certain abilities to make some other unexciting and quite frankly not very good ability perform it's function. It's a little different if an ability is so strong, so good, or some interesting that I want to run it, but trust me here, Mutagen, Boundless Storm, and Surge are not. The build I was using was, in short, not fun. Coupled that with not optimal, and that is why I hate this change and will opt to use another class for difficult content in which I have to sustain myself.

Some people are still telling sorcs just to run higher health, adapt, and they will be fine. Since NBs, DKs, and Templars, done not need to do either or those and are already more than fine, I find it unreasonable and selfish to tell sorcerers, "You are OP, deal with it." I did deal with it, and the game-play experience was *not fun*. I will update my original post to better present the data I compiled during the vMA run this weekend and then I am done with this. Come the DB patch, if ZoS doesn't make any changes, I will simply log onto one of my other three classes where I can actually have fun doing challenging content. As it was, playing a sorcerer is pretty boring in my estimation. That class desperate needs more options and this patch is giving them less.

What you are saying is pretty much what I've been feeling about the sorcerer current state. Of all the classes we are the least flexible when it comes to our weapon choices and skill choices being we are not equipped with any direct damage skill we can spam and also because a good number of our skills are very utilitarian, to the point it is hard to find good times to use them. It is not that the skill is bad per say, but it is simply impossible justifying them when you have so few skill slots available already thanks to the number of toggles in our bars.

At this point it is less a balance flaw as it is a design flaw, worse, a concept flaw. If it is true what I've been reading, that the Developers, I assume @Wrobel, said Sorcerers will never get an ability to spam like every other class has and that he will never give stamina builds a morph for Crystal Shards, likely the most iconic Sorcerer skill left that does not involve pets, because giving us such options would make sorcerers too much like the other classes... Well, that says it all doesn't it? We are being singled out from every other class without any explanation as to why... And it is not what we want... I think Sorcerers can hold uniqueness and still become similar to the other classes, which at their very core are similar to eachother, with one being better at this aspect of the game and the other a little better at another.

The conclusion is, it is possible to maintain sorcerers unique while still giving as a flexible build path and kit that is similar or at comparable to other classes. @Wrobel, you don't want sorcerer's main trait and its unique touch be that class is the weakest in every aspect and the most rigid, not to mention un-fun to play. You can't possibly want that.

Tyrannitar

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

no it is bad. because it's a dull/boring change to the way the class plays. They could make it heal me for 10K a pop and i'd still prefer the surge on current live, because this change is boring.

i mean if stamina sorcs prefer this then at least leave power surge the way it is.

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I mean, even as a stam sorc, hell, even moreso as a stam sorc: crit surge was our ONE survivability tool.

This new form hurts us more than Magicka sorcs.... as we heal for 60% of an often higher crit rate as stam builds tend to run over 60% even on the low-side of the crit bell curve.

Grao

Digiman wrote: »

@Joy_Division Did you try using a pet? If so, which one? They increased max health by 8% if you had one up. Did it make a difference?

He couldn't even find him self a slot for Bound Aegis, I doubt he would have managed to slot a pet, no matter which, as they die too easily and don't do enough damage when compared to other skills as they are not affected by Champion Points and likely not affected by the Storm Calling passives.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

no it is bad. because it's a dull/boring change to the way the class plays. They could make it heal me for 10K a pop and i'd still prefer the surge on current live, because this change is boring.

i mean if stamina sorcs prefer this then at least leave power surge the way it is.

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

His reasoning was to try and force sorcerers to use Dark Exchange, a skill pretty much every sorcerer has hated since the release of the game, that has an overly long cast time and is generally not even worth comparing to direct heals the other classes have available to them. Even healing staff abilities are far superior to Exchange.

Also, it is very boring when your build doesn't allow for a single trace of uniqueness. Magicka Sorcerers right now don't even get to choose their weapons, we are tied to Force Pulse and thus to a Destruction staff and now thanks to the changes to Surge and our lack of sustain, we are also tied to a Restoration staff. Put them together and we have the cross Sorcerers are forced to carry around as the worse class in the game atm.

Digiman wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I expect that's why they have him on the special #2 they announced for today. Eitherway you are right, there is nothing they can do to change it.

Sadly what this may mean is a focused class overhaul of sorcerers for next DLC because of how badly they screwed up the class. Sadly that will be months.

Do you really think they will answer Sorcerer questions? The last time they were slippery like soap and dodged every question of significance.

Minalan wrote: »

Digiman wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I expect that's why they have him on the special #2 they announced for today. Eitherway you are right, there is nothing they can do to change it.

Sadly what this may mean is a focused class overhaul of sorcerers for next DLC because of how badly they screwed up the class. Sadly that will be months.

Sad part is they could undo one change and at least leave us PLAYABLE.

Honestly... I hope they don't undo the Surge change. If the class is playable they won't be forced to severely rework it and that is what sorcerers need it, a rework. It seems the concept toe Developers originally had for the class doesn't work. I don't know how they thought it could work as they knew from the start they'd need to balance both PvP ad PvE and a class that is based around high mobility, an excessive amount of CCs and extreme burst would clearly present balance issues in regard to PvP. We need them to sit and make a new plan as to what sorcerers are supposed to be, the role they fill in this game, what they are supposed to be best at, because our best trait can no longer be high burst and mobility as those have been nerfed again and again leaving the class unplayable PvE wise.

Mush55

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

You keep saying sorcerers will have to adapt and they will be fine ... but you have not offered any ideas

I've adapted and it's a sad day my sorc is now my crafting mule and my mage blade is my main.

Is this the answer to the problem No, but looks like it's the only way forward at the moment....

Thanks Zos and PvPers for spoiling my sorc in pve.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

Mush55 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@Solariken - I don't believe you have as keen grasp on sorcerers of you think you do. Your posts reveal more frustration fighting against them than actually playing them.

You say:

Sorcs finally have to make some sacrifices in choosing how they build rather than being maximally effective at self-healing, resource management, and damage mitigation while in full DPS mode

Sorcs? Tell me ... exactly what sacrifice do I have to make on my templar standing in my Focus/Ritual while puncturing sweeping stuff? Or a NB siphoning while in her path? And in those two cases, that is actual "full DPS" mode, far more self-healing than a sorc will get and better resource-management that a sorcerer can obtain (in particular the NB).

The fact of the matter is that Sorcerers are the *worst* of the magicka classes at self-healing while in full DPS mode and also the worst at healing themselves in general. In order for a sorcerer to mitigate incoming damage, they have to break "full DPS mode" and constantly reapply their shields, a step templars, NBs, and even DKs do not necessarily have to do.

What evidence can you forward that sorcerers are distinctive from other classes in that their "INSANELY effective" cookie-cutter build is "vastly over-performing" the other three classes? This sounds like an opinion to me. One that your entitled too, but if you are going to present it as a fact, it is your responsibility to substantiate it. How is a sorcerer over-performing relative to say the heavy armor puncturing sweeping, breath of lifing, and Jesus Beaming magicka templar? In the next patch, are you going to contend a stam DK decked out in Morag Tong won't also be insanely effective?

It's always easy for people who main other classes to tell the one getting nerfed, and there is no question the sorcerer is getting a net nerf, that they will be fine. If doing vMA is so easy on your sorcerer, why don't you do what I did and go onto the PTS and show us that they are indeed fine. It is completely unfair to dispute the actual evidence I am presenting and claim sorcerers will "fine" when you have done nothing on the PTS to demonstrate otherwise.

I want to be clear @Joy_Division that I wasn't refuting any of your evidence for the "net nerf" Sorcs are getting. I also said in the first sentence if my post that I'm not the sorc expert - however I don't appreciate those that try to invalidate others' opinions by saying "you don't have a max level sorc so gtfo." I felt compelled to respond even though I know I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Also, you aren't being fair with your apples-to-oranges comment about self-healing between classes. Templars and NB have great self-healing too, but have to break DPS to reposition incredibly often whereas Sorcs don't necessarily need to, and if they do, Streak gives them a huge upper hand in this too. Unless your self-healing metric is face-tanking some easy PvE garbage like Bloodspawn then I disagree that Sorcs have it the worst.

I remember when vMA/Orsinium first dropped, the sorc leaderboard was a mile long in the first two weeks while all other classes were slow to represent. I also know that the most effective PvP 1vX'ers that I still see are mSorcs and stam Dk's. You are right though, everything I have said is opinion without a long list of supporting evidence except that ZOS apparently agrees that Sorcs needed to be tuned down. I'm sorry if the nerf hurts, but I'll say again that you will adapt and find yourself in a good place on your sorc.

I wish I could chime in with specifics about the PTS, but my 1.5mbps T1 makes it not worth the effort to download PTS patches, sorry.

You keep saying sorcerers will have to adapt and they will be fine ... but you have not offered any ideas

I've adapted and it's a sad day my sorc is now my crafting mule and my mage blade is my main.

Is this the answer to the problem No, but looks like it's the only way forward at the moment....

Thanks Zos and PvPers for spoiling my sorc in pve.

Pretty much what I did, but then I remembered that I got other games and I just stopped playing eso to wait for Zenimax to maybe at least get one brain to share among all of them to fix sorcs someday.

Jar_Ek

I tried to run vma as a stamina sorcerer last night. I ran a dw build with bloodthirsty, blood craze, critical surge, caltrops, bound armour; and a back bar with bow abilities + Dark deal and hurricane or rally, charge, and hurricane.
I was wearing purple medium with 2pc heavy. Had about 20k health, 17k resists. 50% crit and 3.5k weapon power.

I breezed the first mobs up to the first boss, and then it began to hurt. Simply put critical surge on cool down + bloodthirst + blood craze could not keep up with the incomming damage when the boss creates 3 clones... and Dark deal isn't fast enough to save you when your health dips fast (ie 15k in 1sec) and you need an immediate survivability tool. Also I tended to have full magicka much of the time as there are so few decent utility spells and struggled to regenerate stamina (pots mostly). Now I had limited time so might have been able to do better with a barrier ultimate or the new absorption, but frankly with 4 skills working on healing and defensive skills active, I am not connvinced that I should be forced into defensive ultimates.

Just to add a stamina sorcerer view.

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

I tried to run vma as a stamina sorcerer last night. I ran a dw build with bloodthirsty, blood craze, critical surge, caltrops, bound armour; and a back bar with bow abilities + Dark deal and hurricane or rally, charge, and hurricane.
I was wearing purple medium with 2pc heavy. Had about 20k health, 17k resists. 50% crit and 3.5k weapon power.

I breezed the first mobs up to the first boss, and then it began to hurt. Simply put critical surge on cool down + bloodthirst + blood craze could not keep up with the incomming damage when the boss creates 3 clones... and Dark deal isn't fast enough to save you when your health dips fast (ie 15k in 1sec) and you need an immediate survivability tool. Also I tended to have full magicka much of the time as there are so few decent utility spells and struggled to regenerate stamina (pots mostly). Now I had limited time so might have been able to do better with a barrier ultimate or the new absorption, but frankly with 4 skills working on healing and defensive skills active, I am not connvinced that I should be forced into defensive ultimates.

Just to add a stamina sorcerer view.

Yes, I guessed you guys on the stamina side would be in an even worse state as don't even have the option of a Restoration Staff. I honestly don't know how ZOS expects any sorcerers to play in this patch at all. Maybe next large patch we will see improvements, but I think for now sorcerers will be left to do only dungeons, crafting and maybe some PvPing. End game PvE, at least in any competitive shape will be impossible.

STEVIL

So replace surge with LIGHTNING BREATH

think of the big beatie that plants feet for small cone lightning channel.

So for sorcer, it affects maybe 7m cones channel oner say 2-3 secs during which you are slow as heck and does decent shck dmg and heals you for some percent of the dmg done.

Maybe even conjure image overlay of the beastie when fired.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

STEVIL wrote: »

So replace surge with LIGHTNING BREATH

think of the big beatie that plants feet for small cone lightning channel.

So for sorcer, it affects maybe 7m cones channel oner say 2-3 secs during which you are slow as heck and does decent shck dmg and heals you for some percent of the dmg done.

Maybe even conjure image overlay of the beastie when fired.

I'd be ok with that, really. Anything to make sorcs more viable for PvE again.

Septimus_Magna

Tyrannitar wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

no it is bad. because it's a dull/boring change to the way the class plays. They could make it heal me for 10K a pop and i'd still prefer the surge on current live, because this change is boring.

i mean if stamina sorcs prefer this then at least leave power surge the way it is.

If its boring or not depends on your personal preference.
The fact is that Wrobel saw reasons to change Surge so it will probably not be changed back.

All we can do is provide feedback so it will be somewhat useful when the DB update goes live.

I mean, even as a stam sorc, hell, even moreso as a stam sorc: crit surge was our ONE survivability tool.

This new form hurts us more than Magicka sorcs.... as we heal for 60% of an often higher crit rate as stam builds tend to run over 60% even on the low-side of the crit bell curve.

I dont know if the changes hurt stam sorcs more at this point.
When the surge heals werent affected by the Battle Spirit Crit Surge was actually quite OP on PTS.

The healing value in pve and pvp (now that the surge heals are affect by the Battle Spirit) is just way too low.

Jar_Ek

The problem with the new critical surge is that it requires you to have a secondary means of survival whilst it does its thing... and stamina sorcerers don't have one and magicka sorcerers one is now far more limited. The flat value is also a really bad idea because it cannot be scaled either with number of opponents or number of criticals or with the slow power creep inherent to mmos.

So although it would be better if the heal were larger, it would also be better if it were tied to something... even total cps would be better than nothing but boy would that be rough on new 50s.

SwaminoNowlino

Fantastic @Joy_Division. Whether you agree or disagree with something, this is how you use the forums to discuss topics. You do comparative analysis using math and show repeat instances to validate results. People can quibble about what it all means, but this is an excellent model for anyone wanting to provide Dev feedback.

Too bad this kind of thing is reserved for our PC friends, us console guys really rely on you all to provide substance to these discussions.

Grao

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Fantastic @Joy_Division. Whether you agree or disagree with something, this is how you use the forums to discuss topics. You do comparative analysis using math and show repeat instances to validate results. People can quibble about what it all means, but this is an excellent model for anyone wanting to provide Dev feedback.

Too bad this kind of thing is reserved for our PC friends, us console guys really rely on you all to provide substance to these discussions.

And yet after he did two in depth analyzes of the sorcerer problem and situation, there is still no response from Zenimax...

SwaminoNowlino

@Grao Unfortunately, when you look at how toxic and nonconstructive a lot of these discussions are, can you really blame them? Can you imagine being @ZOS_GinaBruno and having to wake up in the morning knowing you have to come into work and read all the insults and threats? People are passionate about this game, which is a testament to this quality platform they have. We all can get disappointed about the lack of communication or questionable changes, but some of the rage and vitriol directed at folks who are just doing their job is not helpful to the overall community. If we had more posts like what @Joy_Division put together here, backed by logic and math, and less of the garbage, we may find that the Dev team would be much more willing to come on here and share information with us and engage in discussion.

Emma_Overload

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

Agree completely! By far, the simplest solution to the Surge issues is to raise the flat rate heal by a large amount. In my opinion, a 200% increase would silence most of the complaints in both PvE and PvP.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Grao Unfortunately, when you look at how toxic and nonconstructive a lot of these discussions are, can you really blame them? Can you imagine being @ZOS_GinaBruno and having to wake up in the morning knowing you have to come into work and read all the insults and threats? People are passionate about this game, which is a testament to this quality platform they have. We all can get disappointed about the lack of communication or questionable changes, but some of the rage and vitriol directed at folks who are just doing their job is not helpful to the overall community. If we had more posts like what @Joy_Division put together here, backed by logic and math, and less of the garbage, we may find that the Dev team would be much more willing to come on here and share information with us and engage in discussion.

People have just gotten tired after a complete lack of communication from the dev team for more than two years now. So many of the nice constructive posts have gone away as they just got ignored anyway and they're replaced with the toxic posts you see these days.

code65536

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Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

Agree completely! By far, the simplest solution to the Surge issues is to raise the flat rate heal by a large amount. In my opinion, a 200% increase would silence most of the complaints in both PvE and PvP.

Simplest, yes, and it would mitigate some of the pain. But just bumping up the flat value is not a good overall solution.

Grao

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Grao Unfortunately, when you look at how toxic and nonconstructive a lot of these discussions are, can you really blame them? Can you imagine being @ZOS_GinaBruno and having to wake up in the morning knowing you have to come into work and read all the insults and threats? People are passionate about this game, which is a testament to this quality platform they have. We all can get disappointed about the lack of communication or questionable changes, but some of the rage and vitriol directed at folks who are just doing their job is not helpful to the overall community. If we had more posts like what @Joy_Division put together here, backed by logic and math, and less of the garbage, we may find that the Dev team would be much more willing to come on here and share information with us and engage in discussion.

To be perfectly honest... Yes, I do blame them. During the first two weeks of feedback the great majority of the posts in the official thread were constructive, even if still filled with criticism as we don't agree with some of the changes being made to the Sorcerer Class. Not all of us went and took pictures of meters, etc, but we were quoting values from live to prove our point that the class was already in a complicated spot previous to this PTS changes and that the changes would only further damage an already hurting class.

The reason the community becomes more toxic is the lack of response from the Developers and even from the Forum Administrators. That frustration we are left with by being ignored is only made worse by yet more patching that not only do not solve the many issues we've been pointing out, but actually make the situation even worse. It is part of @ZOS_GinaBruno and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom 's job to handle the communication with the community and this case they have failed, they have failed to understand we at least needed them to give a word on those threads they created and reassure us that they were taking our concerns to @Wrobel. That was a mistake on their side, so yes... I do blame them for that and for the state this threads are left after 4 weeks of no response.

Grao

code65536 wrote: »

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Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

Agree completely! By far, the simplest solution to the Surge issues is to raise the flat rate heal by a large amount. In my opinion, a 200% increase would silence most of the complaints in both PvE and PvP.

Simplest, yes, and it would mitigate some of the pain. But just bumping up the flat value is not a good overall solution.

To be honest even reverting Surge to its previous incarnation would not save sorcerers. I don't have a ton of pictures to make this post, but all sorcerers playing PvE at the final stages of the game know the class has been in a bit of trouble for a while now.

Between lack of a particular identity, lack of build flexibility, lack of damages... There is much that needs to be done so Sorcerers are in par with the other three classes and at least some of those changes that need done, the Devs are apparently strongly against for it would make Sorcerers too much like the other classes.

Well, I would like to say I'd welcome sorcerers being a little bit more like the other classes! I would like to see sorcerers having their own spammable ability, giving magicka build's a choice on what weapon they actually want to use. I would like to see the most iconic sorcerer skill that does not involve pets, crystal shards, have a stamina morph. I would like to see the bugs with Overload finally fixed or the complete removal of heavy attacks from that ultimate, if fixing the bug is simply impossible. I would like to see Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments get an active ability similar to how the pets have active abilities. Speaking of the pets, I would like to see them being viable, I would like for Ward to heal pets and offer far more protection than it currently does. I would like to see pets actually survive in Raid fight for more than 20 seconds. I would like to see pets be affected by the n number of passives in our tree that don't affect them, I would like to see pets being affected by CPs as they should have been from the start as they are sorcerer spells... There is much that needs doing and it is frustrating to experience nerf after nerf while we are so very aware of all those problems that need fixing are being ignored...

code65536

Grao wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

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Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The idea for the new Surge isnt even that bad (especially for melee ranged stam sorcs).

The problem is the extremely low healing value, if the healing value is buffed sorcs will have a reliable self-heal as long as they keep landing crits.

Every other class has self-healing abilities so why shouldnt sorcs have one?

Agree completely! By far, the simplest solution to the Surge issues is to raise the flat rate heal by a large amount. In my opinion, a 200% increase would silence most of the complaints in both PvE and PvP.

Simplest, yes, and it would mitigate some of the pain. But just bumping up the flat value is not a good overall solution.

To be honest even reverting Surge to its previous incarnation would not save sorcerers. I don't have a ton of pictures to make this post, but all sorcerers playing PvE at the final stages of the game know the class has been in a bit of trouble for a while now.

Between lack of a particular identity, lack of build flexibility, lack of damages... There is much that needs to be done so Sorcerers are in par with the other three classes and at least some of those changes that need done, the Devs are apparently strongly against for it would make Sorcerers too much like the other classes.

Well, I would like to say I'd welcome sorcerers being a little bit more like the other classes! I would like to see sorcerers having their own spammable ability, giving magicka build's a choice on what weapon they actually want to use. I would like to see the most iconic sorcerer skill that does not involve pets, crystal shards, have a stamina morph. I would like to see the bugs with Overload finally fixed or the complete removal of heavy attacks from that ultimate, if fixing the bug is simply impossible. I would like to see Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments get an active ability similar to how the pets have active abilities. Speaking of the pets, I would like to see them being viable, I would like for Ward to heal pets and offer far more protection than it currently does. I would like to see pets actually survive in Raid fight for more than 20 seconds. I would like to see pets be affected by the n number of passives in our tree that don't affect them, I would like to see pets being affected by CPs as they should have been from the start as they are sorcerer spells... There is much that needs doing and it is frustrating to experience nerf after nerf while we are so very aware of all those problems that need fixing are being ignored...

I have a sorc at endgame, and yes, the sorc class as a whole is problematic.

But the bigger issues with sorcs are ones that can't be fixed before DB launches in a little over a week. That's simply unrealistic, and you know that. What we can do is champion for changes that are realistic--toning down the nerf to ward and partially reverting the Surge changes.

And from the perspective of endgame group PvE, which is where sorcs are weakest, I take no issue with the magicka sorc being tied to the destruction staff. In group PvE, magicka DKs double-bar destro staves, and Force Pulse actually outperforms Strife for magicka nightblades in terms of pure damage potential, and people in competitive raids have started to use that as their main spammable. The reliance on Force Pulse and destro staves is not the thing that's holding sorcs back in group PvE. Instead, the real problems are the Bound Armor toggle taking up bar space and a lackluster selection of DoTs.

Of those, the only thing that I can see reasonably addressed in a week is making Bound Armor's bonus a slot-on-your-bar bonus instead of a casted toggle, which will at least allow us to remove it from our back bar. (And even then, that would just be a partial solution--IMHO, the max stat bonus should just be a class passive and the ability should be replaced entirely.)

zeroIndex

After reading this post, along with many others, I have to say I wasn't thrilled about the update. So I decided to gear up and hop into vMSA on the pts.

I used the same gear I have on live and I used the same skills I use on live, other than empowered ward. I finished the arena in just over an hour.

My honest thoughts:

My score was a little lower due to not being used to the changes, lack of addons and only having 300 champion points. By changes I mean, no more precast of shields and no more burst overload / frag heals. I found that the precast was not needed due to the heals that surge would provide at the time the enemies spawn. Everything else was pretty much the same. I did notice that I was using more magicka than my normal run on live but I feel this could be prevented after a little time spent dealing with the slight change to a rotation. It would just mean breaking some habits. Some rounds were harder but some rounds were easier due to the new surge. The new surge is not bad.

I took the time to run the arena on pts. I suggest other sorcs who are nervous about the changes should do the same. The changes are not as bleak as they sound.

Im adding some pictures as proof. The picture with the leader board was taken just moments ago.