Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage

DDuke · May 2016

Hello,

This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.

Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).

Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:

8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.

0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=

14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).

EDIT: After some tests in PTS, it seems the real cast time of this ability could be 0.9s instead, indicating a wrong tooltip.

If that is the case, then the DPS would be approximately 10.257.5.

Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.

To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).

So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.

My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?

Ashamray · May 2016

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Derra · May 2016

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

RAGUNAnoOne · May 2016

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

Nifty2g · May 2016

using rapid strikes in pve youll see a dps increase cause of cp layout and what not
should be happy

DDuke · May 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

EsoRecon · May 2016

Eh who does pve anyways?

luxfreak · May 2016

The good point about Surprise Attack is that it applies the major armor Debuff.
Its also faster then Flurry, even if that difference is quite small after the Flurry changes.
Back to the Debuff:
The debuff will make SA hit harder against any target, making up quite a bit about the difference you told.
Due to the Debuff, all physical damage dealing skills will hit harder as well.

For me, Surprise Attack is the skill i use when im going alone and in PVP, while Flurry is my attack of choices when im going with a Tank, who uses the meele taunt.

In PvP, Surprise Attack excels way more at Ganking and Burstin then Flurry. Using Pierce Mark isnt a real Option as well, as anyone will start blocking and will be prepared for you gank.

RAGUNAnoOne · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Really on live I bashed a templars face in once and it sure as heck interrupted him if that is true than WHY do they have interrupt moves if nothing can be interrupted?

DDuke · May 2016

EsoRecon wrote: »

Eh who does pve anyways?

I do. And Surprise Attack is about to become useless in PvP as well for pretty much everything.

Heavy Attack+Rapid Strikes = more burst than Heavy Attack+Surprise Attack. Those Rapid Strikes even get +15% more damage (7% more than you get from Major Fracture) against people you stun with a sneak heavy attack & 0.6 seconds isn't enough time for your opponent to break free & survive.

The only saving grace of Surprise Attack is the synergy with Cloak. A skill that is so bugged it doesn't work most of the time.

DDuke · May 2016

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Really on live I bashed a templars face in once and it sure as heck interrupted him if that is true than WHY do they have interrupt moves if nothing can be interrupted?

The two Templar skills you can interrupt are jbeam & Dark Flare. Jabs/Sweeps haven't been interruptable for the past year or so.

But please, this isn't a thread about Templars.

Strider_Roshin · May 2016

Ah I see, and since flurry can double dip; it will be significantly more powerful than SA once we're allowed acquire more champion points.

You know, this wouldn't even be an issue if ZOS didn't consider such moves to be a DoT. Personally rather than buffing SA, I would prefer them to not consider channeling abilities as DoTs.

DDuke · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Ah I see, and since flurry can double dip; it will be significantly more powerful than SA once we're allowed acquire more champion points.

You know, this wouldn't even be an issue if ZOS didn't consider such moves to be a DoT. Personally rather than buffing SA, I would prefer them to not consider channeling abilities as DoTs.

Well, even with only 10 points in Thaumaturge Rapid Strikes puts 55.33% more DPS on a target than using Surprise Attack.

That's a pretty big difference I'd say....

With the other morph, you get a 1,5-2k heal as well with the last hit. Every 0.6 seconds.

I don't honestly see a compelling reason to use Surprise Attack anymore.

code65536 · May 2016

And then toss in two vMA daggers... mmm.

While the Flurry boost is nice (too nice?), it does mean that stamblades--at least in PvE--is just like any other stam class when it comes to their choice of main DPS spammable.

ADarklore · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Hello,

This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.

Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).

OMG... heaven forbid more OPTIONS are given to players instead of forcing them to use 'cookie-cutter' builds. Why the heck are you complaining, just use Flurry if you think it's that much better. Or is it that other classes now have an ability that is on par with NB's SA?!? Again, heaven forbid we'd add some improvements to other Stamina classes besides NBs.

DDuke · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

And then toss in two vMA daggers... mmm.

While the Flurry boost is nice (too nice?), it does mean that stamblades--at least in PvE--is just like any other stam class when it comes to their choice of main DPS spammable.

Yes, exactly. Except they have no class DoTs or anything to make them competitive in DPS.

They have execute, but that is only 1/4th of the fight and is now actually worse than Rapid Strikes in execute too.

12 402 DPS (50% more than Surprise Attack)

Rapid Strikes (see picture above): 14 921.28 DPS +20% (Dual Wield passive when target is below 25% health) = 17,905.536 DPS

DDuke · May 2016

ADarklore wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Hello,

This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.

Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).

OMG... heaven forbid more OPTIONS are given to players instead of forcing them to use 'cookie-cutter' builds. Why the heck are you complaining, just use Flurry if you think it's that much better. Or is it that other classes now have an ability that is on par with NB's SA?!? Again, heaven forbid we'd add some improvements to other Stamina classes besides NBs.

The problem is that where all classes can use Rapid Strikes, some of them also have DoTs & other skills that make them stronger DPS than Nightblades.

Nightblades have absolutely nothing worth using.

Asmael · May 2016

1086 * 1.00
+ 1086 * 1.03 (1118,58)
+ 1086 * 1.06 (1151.16)
+ 1086 * 1.09 (1183,74)
+ 4344 * 1.12 (4865,28)

= 9404,76 flurry damage per cast on average

Now, 8454 damage for SA, and a reduction of armor by 5280, which is equivalent to 10,56% damage increase against NPCs, since even for v16 mobs, 500 armor is the same as 1% mitigation (vs 663 for players). The actual SA damage is then 9347 supposing you reduce that amount on a mob.

Also, do note that the GCD of instant cast abilities is not 1 second, but closer to 0.85 - 0.9. So SA isn't near as bad as stated, but...

In a realistic boss fight, the target will usually be debuffed by the tank (Pierce armor), making the major buff irrelevant, unless you agree that the tank will not use pierce armor (which is probably not recommended).
SA, or just about any stam ability for that matter, will be absolutely CRUSHED by the current BiS for weapons: maelstrom weapons, and the Cruel Flurry proc. This alone is enough to make any other DPS ability completely irrelevant, if they have no synergy with Flurry and mael. procs.
SA provides Major Ward / Resolve and a stun when cloaked, altho stun is irrelevant, considering heavy attack can stun from stealth as well.
Flurry benefits from damage against low health targets, altho not that relevant, considering Killer's Blade in PvE.

TL;DR: Flurry beats SA in PvE, but Flurry beats pretty much everything else, and actually gets an EVEN STRONGER synergy with mael weapons. with DB DLC. Nothing new under the sun I guess.

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

DDuke · May 2016

In fact, if you want to compare Killer's Blade to other things...

They have the same skillcoefficient apparently, unless the 2H execute damage scales higher as ranks go up (I only have it at rank 1)

The difference is that 2H Execute starts dealing decent damage after 50%, where as Killer's Blade requires target to be below 25%. And in the end, 2H Execute deals 35% more damage.

2H Execute: 13 849 damage
Killer's Blade: 12 402 damage

11% difference in favor of Executioner, that you can start using after 50% rather than 25%.

How is this balanced in any imaginable way?

I mean, people can hate Nightblades & their stealth burst all they want. But when it comes to things other than ganking in PvP, there are some serious issues as you can see by the numbers.

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

So you don't want to boost the nb instagib gankbuilds but want a dps push for the strongest nb burststuff and propably one of the best burstabilities in game and you think nightblade is just good for ganking?

I must be on a *** of drugs to see awesome nb's rocking hard everyday... oh wait, Liberate or Sabal maybe just look like Nightblades but must be something else.
Sorry for being sarcastic but srsly man... you are aiming for a 100% oneshot Cyrodil.

And if you want every ability to have the same strengths there shouldn't be classes at all... maybe some weaknesses are intended and absolutely reasonable.

And i never saw you play anything apart from gankstuff on ur Nightblade.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

So you don't want to boost the nb instagib gankbuilds but want a dps push for the strongest nb burststuff and propably one of the best burstabilities in game and you think nightblade is just good for ganking?

I must be on a *** of drugs to see awesome nb's rocking hard everyday... oh wait, Liberate or Sabal maybe just look like Nightblades but must be something else.
Sorry for being sarcastic but srsly man... you are aiming for a 100% oneshot Cyrodil.

No, I'm not. In fact if you read my other posts you'd know that I would very much prefer if everyone had 10x more health than they currently have.

Also, I don't want to derail this thread, but I don't see anyone "rocking hard" outside ganking some siegers - you put a NB against an equally skilled stam DK or magicka sorc and he's toast.
I don't even remember when I last lost to a NB on my magicka templar.

Surprise Attack is currently pretty much the weakest stamina skill you can slot in terms of sustained DPS, and much worse than the PTS Rapid Strikes. I've posted the numbers to prove it, maybe you can post ones to prove me wrong?

As I said, you can hate instagib NBs all you want - I'm not too fond of them either (or instagibs from any other class).

But when it comes to sustained DPS which is all that matters in PvE and duels vs good, tankier players - stamblades have serious issues.

code65536 · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

In fact, if you want to compare Killer's Blade to other things...

They have the same skillcoefficient apparently, unless the 2H execute damage scales higher as ranks go up (I only have it at rank 1)

The difference is that 2H Execute starts dealing decent damage after 50%, where as Killer's Blade requires target to be below 25%. And in the end, 2H Execute deals 35% more damage.

2H Execute: 13 849 damage
Killer's Blade: 12 402 damage

11% difference in favor of Executioner, that you can start using after 50% rather than 25%.

How is this balanced in any imaginable way?

I mean, people can hate Nightblades & their stealth burst all they want. But when it comes to things other than ganking in PvP, there are some serious issues as you can see by the numbers.

At least Nightblades have an execute that they can use in PvE. While the 2H execute is better, it means that you have to use 2H in PvE instead of the DW/bow combo. It's why many stamina players in PvE don't even execute--2H is so undesirable in PvE that it's not worth it for that one ability.

Jhunn · May 2016

@DDuke has a valid point, but I'd not want surprise attack buffed until stealth has been nerfed and insta-gibbing builds thrown away.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

So you don't want to boost the nb instagib gankbuilds but want a dps push for the strongest nb burststuff and propably one of the best burstabilities in game and you think nightblade is just good for ganking?

I must be on a *** of drugs to see awesome nb's rocking hard everyday... oh wait, Liberate or Sabal maybe just look like Nightblades but must be something else.
Sorry for being sarcastic but srsly man... you are aiming for a 100% oneshot Cyrodil.

And if you want every ability to have the same strengths there shouldn't be classes at all... maybe some weaknesses are intended and absolutely reasonable.

And i never saw you play anything apart from gankstuff on ur Nightblade.

I did a lot of duels on my Nightblade, back when it was still good.

https://youtu.be/fEjhVhSLKN4?t=8m10s

These are from last September I think. That's how long it has been since NB was playable outside ganking.

Yeah, my UI was kinda messy back then

If those fights in the video happened in today's ESO - I can guarantee that every single one of those cloaks would break prematurely & I'd be wasting magicka, trying to outheal damage that I dont have the tools to outheal (unlike other classes).

Alcast · May 2016

PvE wise if you want max dps you need Flurry anyway due to the maelstrom daggers + the changes to thaumaturge which basically make DoT builds way superior than anything else.

Surprise attack is still a decent damage ability tho.

And in PvP it is nowhere close to useless. True is that DoT builds got a lot stronger which i like. No more 1 button spamming.

Also I do think Flurry+maelstrom daggers quite OP atm in both PvE and PvP.

On other classes, everyone is using flurry also, Jabs? Nah, its worse dps than flurry. Flurry is most likely OP and maybe it should be tuned down a bit?

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

The benefit of SA is that you can use it with every weapon type.

If you want to use Rapid Strikes in pvp you're forced to use DW. Most stamina pvp builds run Rally so that removes the option to have a bow. You could go DW/Bow but that would restrict healing because you cant slot Rally.

Rapid Strikes in pvp means that you either have a limited ranged option (Flying Blade) with DW/2H or you have limited healing due to the lack of Rally.

In my opinion 2H/bow is a more well-rounded setup because Rally is a very important heal and I prefer Bombard over Steel Tornado for AOE.

zerosingularity · May 2016

For the record, about the Executioner vs Killer's Blade issue. Which one is far cheaper to cast and can nerf healing should it fail to kill?

About Surprise Attacks vs Rapid Strikes issue. Which one debuffs the enemy for EVERYONE, is much easier to hit with, and gives you Major Ward/Resolve? (Not to mention can be animation cancelled much easier.)

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

So you don't want to boost the nb instagib gankbuilds but want a dps push for the strongest nb burststuff and propably one of the best burstabilities in game and you think nightblade is just good for ganking?

I must be on a *** of drugs to see awesome nb's rocking hard everyday... oh wait, Liberate or Sabal maybe just look like Nightblades but must be something else.
Sorry for being sarcastic but srsly man... you are aiming for a 100% oneshot Cyrodil.

No, I'm not. In fact if you read my other posts you'd know that I would very much prefer if everyone had 10x more health than they currently have.

Also, I don't want to derail this thread, but I don't see anyone "rocking hard" outside ganking some siegers - you put a NB against an equally skilled stam DK or magicka sorc and he's toast.
I don't even remember when I last lost to a NB on my magicka templar.

Surprise Attack is currently pretty much the weakest stamina skill you can slot in terms of sustained DPS, and much worse than the PTS Rapid Strikes. I've posted the numbers to prove it, maybe you can post ones to prove me wrong?

As I said, you can hate instagib NBs all you want - I'm not too fond of them either (or instagibs from any other class).

But when it comes to sustained DPS which is all that matters in PvE and duels vs good, tankier players - stamblades have serious issues.

The NBs i play with do very well and they don't gank but boosting a burst ability so it may become a better sustain dps ability makes what?

And Liberate is surely not a ganker and is just doing great on his Nightblade. I also fought many good NB duelists who do just well but many stamblades cry after they need some skill to take someone down. Well that will change again after db.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main

Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.

Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

So you don't want to boost the nb instagib gankbuilds but want a dps push for the strongest nb burststuff and propably one of the best burstabilities in game and you think nightblade is just good for ganking?

I must be on a *** of drugs to see awesome nb's rocking hard everyday... oh wait, Liberate or Sabal maybe just look like Nightblades but must be something else.
Sorry for being sarcastic but srsly man... you are aiming for a 100% oneshot Cyrodil.

No, I'm not. In fact if you read my other posts you'd know that I would very much prefer if everyone had 10x more health than they currently have.

Also, I don't want to derail this thread, but I don't see anyone "rocking hard" outside ganking some siegers - you put a NB against an equally skilled stam DK or magicka sorc and he's toast.
I don't even remember when I last lost to a NB on my magicka templar.

Surprise Attack is currently pretty much the weakest stamina skill you can slot in terms of sustained DPS, and much worse than the PTS Rapid Strikes. I've posted the numbers to prove it, maybe you can post ones to prove me wrong?

As I said, you can hate instagib NBs all you want - I'm not too fond of them either (or instagibs from any other class).

But when it comes to sustained DPS which is all that matters in PvE and duels vs good, tankier players - stamblades have serious issues.

The NBs i play with do very well and they don't gank but boosting a burst ability so it may become a better sustain dps ability makes what?

You don't necessarily have to give it more damage, but for example something like

"after 3 seconds, deals X poison damage. Stacks up to 3 times."

Or just a regular DoT, or anything that boosts its sustained DPS - which is garbage at the moment.

Even for ganking Rapid Strikes/Bloodthirst will be better than Surprise Attack next patch, but I guess I'll have to make a video about it before people can trust me.