Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage

cschwingeb14_ESO

Really can't care much about your Surprise Attack/NB issues with the way you want to flippantly ignore the fact that stam sorcs and magicka sorcs are below stam blade in PvE DPS for longer encounters. Stam sorc is on the bottom of the pile for every single endgame metric, and is getting worse with the Surge changes

DDuke

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Really can't care much about your Surprise Attack/NB issues with the way you want to flippantly ignore the fact that stam sorcs and magicka sorcs are below stam blade in PvE DPS for longer encounters. Stam sorc is on the bottom of the pile for every single endgame metric, and is getting worse with the Surge changes

Sorry to break it to you, but Magicka sorcs are leaps & bounds above stam NBs in terms of DPS currently (yes, even for longer encounters such as vMoL second bosses or Rakkhat - doesn't get longer than that currently).

And yes, stam sorc is currently on the bottom (even worse off than stamblade) - but I don't see what Surge has to do with anything, perhaps you can explain that.

Don't worry though, next patch you'll be somewhere between stamplars & stam DKs if I were to venture a guess, and stam NBs will be even further behind everyone than before patch.

Gilliamtherogue

sAnn92 wrote: »

I'd like to know how @Gilliamtherogue and @Jeckll feel about the state of stamblades compared to other classes and what they'd like to see added / changed if anything.

With the numbers I'm seeing and in comparison to Live the order of DPS will likely follow this in an end game, completely min maxed setup from top DPS to lowest in an average fight;

Stam DK, Caster DK, Caster Temp, Caster NB, Stam NB, Stam Temp, Stam Sorc, Caster Sorc. Keep in mind that Caster Sorc is still pulling insanely high numbers in certain scenario's, and isn't too far behind the other classes, with the exception of Stam DK. Stamina DK's are currently 5k+ DPS ahead of any other class minimum, and that gap will grow further as of next patch with the rework of their damage dealing sources and proper scaling, allowing CP allocation to benefit them much more by not having so many nodes to split through.

Obviously this order shifts greatly on a variety of perimeters, as on AoE pulls Caster Templars/Stam NB/Stam Sorc are currently much higher than the rest due to better ability or stat scaling with larger target pools. Stam NB has the highest crit chance obtainable, which scales far better in AoE than any stat, Stam Sorc's now have hurricane and a bonus execute passive when dealing physical damage that will make their AoE disgusting, and Caster Templars have some of the best AoE tools in game (lost Det but gained something even better, Ritual of Retribution) between synergizing with WoE and having Reflective.

Back to NB's however, on pure single target fights they will be some of the lowest DPS, as will Stam Sorc and Stam Templar be. NB's have solid passives but many of them lose all or most efficiency in PvE due to no stealth play, and lack of any class based damage abilities aside from an execute, the rest is support skills. No stam DoT, a stam AoE and spammable that are out performed by the Dual Wield skill line options, and the usual terrible sustain management after the Siphoning nerf.

acw37162

DDuke wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me ecstatic there is no end of instance scorecard in the game.

This thread holds the fascination of a train wreck for me I can't stop reading it and shaking my head.

Oh, is there something I'm wrong about? Please, do point out.

People already pointed out the fact there might be something off with the cast time of Rapid Strikes, so I've corrected that.

Rest should still be valid I believe?


I'm glad you find the thread fascinating - I find it fascinating too how far behind NBs are compared to other classes in terms of sustained DPS.

I find it absolutely fascinating and yes a scorecard is toxic.

Considering the amount of time and effort you've spent trying to convince the few in here that will debate with you SA needs a damage buff which is laughable.

And, projecting stam sorcs will do more damage then stamina NB's.

Any buff to rapid strikes stamina damage is a buff to NB damage as you can slot it if you so choose.

If you choose to run SA because you like it or because as a NB you have been spoiled like a rich child eating out of silver spoon with best in slot abilities for almost everything almost since the game launched then use it or don't.

Stamina NB's will provided more then enough damage in PVE to complete even the newest hardest content.

Now if your group of guildies, friends, or game companions won't take you because your not a stam sorc, well I believe that when I see it and it says more about whom you surround yourself with then the class abilities.

Which by the way are outstanding.

The NB toolkit is outstanding and SA does not need a buff. If you want surprise attack buffed start telling me what your going to give up

DDuke

acw37162 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

acw37162 wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me ecstatic there is no end of instance scorecard in the game.

This thread holds the fascination of a train wreck for me I can't stop reading it and shaking my head.

Oh, is there something I'm wrong about? Please, do point out.

People already pointed out the fact there might be something off with the cast time of Rapid Strikes, so I've corrected that.

Rest should still be valid I believe?


I'm glad you find the thread fascinating - I find it fascinating too how far behind NBs are compared to other classes in terms of sustained DPS.

I find it absolutely fascinating and yes a scorecard is toxic.

Considering the amount of time and effort you've spent trying to convince the few in here that will debate with you SA needs a damage buff which is laughable.

And, projecting stam sorcs will do more damage then stamina NB's.

Any buff to rapid strikes stamina damage is a buff to NB damage as you can slot it if you so choose.

If you choose to run SA because you like it or because as a NB you have been spoiled like a rich child eating out of silver spoon with best in slot abilities for almost everything almost since the game launched then use it or don't.

Stamina NB's will provided more then enough damage in PVE to complete even the newest hardest content.

Now if your group of guildies, friends, or game companions won't take you because your not a stam sorc, well I believe that when I see it and it says more about whom you surround yourself with then the class abilities.

Which by the way are outstanding.

The NB toolkit is outstanding and SA does not need a buff. If you want surprise attack buffed start telling me what your going to give up

Ok,

It's cute you believe NBs are blessed with "best in slot abilities for almost everything" & are "outstanding", but you've failed to provide any proof that any of this is true. Try to have a little more realistic view when judging class balance please.

If you want to see some actual proof, I've posted plenty of it on the topic. You know, maths, facts. Not opinions (which you certainly seem to have a lot).

You should form opinions based on facts, not vice versa.

And yes, stamina NBs have enough DPS to complete "newest hardest content" - that is not the point of this thread - the point is that you do not currently contribute as much as other classes, when you deal 50% of the DPS stamina DKs do.

But I'm getting the vibe you're more of a casual player who doesn't care about min-maxing & DPS & all that complicated stuff, so I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you.


Have a good day/night.

code65536

acw37162 wrote: »

Any buff to rapid strikes stamina damage is a buff to NB damage as you can slot it if you so choose.

In absolute terms, yes, it buffs any stamina class, including NBs. Relative to other stamina classes, though, it weakens them, and it brings into the spotlight the stamblade's weakness in PvE by eliminating what used to be a competitive advantage.

acw37162 wrote: »

If you choose to run SA because you like it or because as a NB you have been spoiled like a rich child eating out of silver spoon with best in slot abilities for almost everything almost since the game launched then use it or don't.

LOL. You evidently don't know the history of class balance.

acw37162 wrote: »

The NB toolkit is outstanding

It is. For PvP. (And, for magblades, solo PvE.) For group PvE, the NB toolkit is rather lackluster. I suspect much of your animosity against the NB class stems from PvP. But we're talking PvE here, where the NB's advantages in PvP are totally useless and irrelevant.

acw37162 wrote: »

and SA does not need a buff.

This part, I do agree with. First, because of concerns of PvP balance and second, because it's just not the best way to fix the problem. As I said earlier, I think it's better to tune the rest of the stamblade toolkit; e.g., turning the Debilitating Grasp morph into a stamina morph dealing disease damage (Grasp of Affliction?).

I think it's okay if Surprise Attack doesn't get used in group PvE any more. After all, most magblades don't use Concealed Weapon outside of PvP. And a number of competitive magblades have even dumped Funnel in group PvE and instead use the spammable from the destro staff. Like Concealed Weapon and Funnel Health, Surprise Attack will still remain useful and relevant--just in a somewhat narrower context (namely, PvP or in solo PvE where that debuff is really nice).

acw37162

Last I checked Mr Duke that is not the title of your thread was about flurry and surprise attack not about how god like or not a DK is.

Goodnight

Xsorus

DDuke wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

PvP and PVE wise templars will always use Jabs as well simply cause Burning Light.

DK's tend to use Flurry in PVE cause Maelstrom Daggers but you don't see it used in PvP often...I'm going to try and see how it works with my current setup in comparison to Ransack/Bash/Light Attack Combo with 1hd/shield... but i'm not sure it will be as good...Not to mention I like to put my Dots on the DW bar. You generally won't see Flurry used by many in PvP in general except for maybe Sorcs after this patch..even then i think R/B/L combo would probably even be better on Sorc.

but PvE he is correct, if you're dot based Maelstrom is just going to out dps most things if you're stamina.

There's a lot of top DK players in EU switching to DW rather than the usual 2H/S&B next patch

Mainly for the DK DoT+vMSA weapons synergy with the shorter cast time Rapid Strikes, but also for the insane buffed up DBOS you can get with vMSA daggers.

I'm going to try it out with my Blackrose/fury heavy armor setup, not sure how it'll work but we'll see.

I gotta farm up some VMSA weapons first though

Silver_Strider

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

Sublime

This post is PvP only, I've no idea how to play PvE.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I feel should be considered:

• SA has one advantage over Flurry, it's a class skill. I.e. you can use it alongside whatever weapon you like, opening up a whole lot of possibilities.
• I've seen arguments about specific setups (typically stam DK vs stam NB), and while I don't mind comparing, I want to emphasize that ESO is an MMORPG and therefore shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 matchups.

Strider_Roshin

Sublime wrote: »

This post is PvP only, I've no idea how to play PvE.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I feel should be considered:

• SA has one advantage over Flurry, it's a class skill. I.e. you can use it alongside whatever weapon you like, opening up a whole lot of possibilities.
• I've seen arguments about specific setups (typically stam DK vs stam NB), and while I don't mind comparing, I want to emphasize that ESO is an MMORPG and therefore shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 matchups.

Oh how I love the consistency of the forums.

Radiant Destruction OP? It's only OP in open world, not viable in a 1v1, therefore it's balanced.

Flurry is outperforming Surprise Attack? "We shouldn't be balancing based on 1v1 match ups"

Lol it's quite comical.

SublimeSparo

DDuke wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.

I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.

*** these forums, always play fotm

Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.

You deal about 50% of the damage stamina DKs & magicka builds deal, because there is nothing in the class skills that helps with it.

In PvP, I couldn't care less if they nerfed stamina NB burst dmg - as long as they fixed cloak or gave us something else to survive with. Vigor does not outheal DK DoTs where as their Major Mending+Vigor heals everything you do, so you're kind of dead when those DoTs get applied to you. If I could negate them & survive with cloak - fine - except it doesn't work.

I have no hidden agenda here. I know the strengths & weaknesses of NB and I couldn't care less if the strengths got toned down a bit (ganking), where the weaknesses got fixed/buffed.

After all, what does any of the 1vX capacity the class has matter, if you have to run from 1v1s you can't win.


That's bad balance - in both ways.

ummm, stam Sorcs might disagree with you there

Jeckll

sAnn92 wrote: »

I'd like to know how @Gilliamtherogue and @Jeckll feel about the state of stamblades compared to other classes and what they'd like to see added / changed if anything.

Pretty much what @Gilliamtherogue already pointed out. With Flurry being way superior now in terms of DPS compared to Surprise Attack, we're forced into the MSA Dot build that Stam DKs are already using so successfully.

But they have a class based dot to compliment this build. Stamblades will basically be the ugly little brother of Stam DK, doing a similar rotation but with worse DPS.

People are right when they think buffing SA would probably be a bad solution. Given the benefits SA grats (Shadow Barrier, 3% Max HP, Major Fracture and Breach plus Stun from stealth) it would be poor design to give SA the same DPS as Rapid has, a Skill that "only" deals Damage. But it's also true that basically none of the benefits of SA over RS does give you an edge in PvE end game (well, pretty sure I survived an AoE or two thx to Shadow Barrier but if I play correctly, I would not get hit in the first place). Having a ton of extra benefits does mean nothing if you cant use them. It's like having an interrupt on a skill but only fighting bosses that cant be interrupted.

To make things worse, a DOT based build nullifies the advange of Nightblades in terms of sustain as Siphoning doesnt procc on DOTs anymore. I personally do have a hard time sustaining vMoL at certain points and without Siphoning Attacks + Surprise Attack, I'd imagine it's going to be even harder. It will be pretty much an AoE exclusive advantage. But we never had issues with AoE DPS - we're struggling with Single Target DPS.

Nerfing RS or the MSA combo will only result in Magicka Builds being the only real option again (which they pretty much are now as well aside from Stam DK). So if you want a solid solution, I cant give you one on the fly. Making Relentless Focus scale on Stam/WD will only further increase the burst that PvP Players are so afraid of. Giving us a Stam based Path of Darkness will also not help our Single Target DPS.

I know where the hate from PvP Players in this thread comes from, but for PvE, it's just disencouraging to see the gap between the builds.

I loved my old play style with Surprise Attack and I'm sad it seems to find an end for now...at least in Group PvE.
/sadface I guess...

TheDarkShadow

I agree with someone on this thread who suggest ZOS should buff Dark Shades. This way Surprise Attack will still be the same, and NB ganker won't get buff in pvp, but stamblade will get better dps in pve.

Remove minor maim from this morph (people who want minor maim can get it from the other morph).
Shades do disease or poison or physical damage, scale off stamina, but still cost magicka to summon.
Buff Shades damage.

luxfreak

Silver_Strider wrote: »

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

Next: the Idea of changing Debiliate into a DoT would certainly be a great dps boost, especially combined with the MSA weapons. On the other hand, it would us make even more into a poor stam dk, where the only difference would be our incap strike and the fact that we dont have a benefit for aoe poison effects.
The same would be for SA. And adding it a DoT would it certainly make it strong, but i cant see how to balance it correctly to not loose its use in PVP/MSA, while beeing a good DoT, thats worth slotting over something else, or changing Bars and casting it as a DoT in group PVE

Derra

Why not make shades (the two melee ones) a nice physical dot fitting the NB theme.

Alcast

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

Really can't care much about your Surprise Attack/NB issues with the way you want to flippantly ignore the fact that stam sorcs and magicka sorcs are below stam blade in PvE DPS for longer encounters. Stam sorc is on the bottom of the pile for every single endgame metric, and is getting worse with the Surge changes

How can you say that without even testing the new changes? Also, you are wrong. The recent changes to Stam Sorc make the quite nice in PvE.

TheDarkShadow

luxfreak wrote: »

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

The bow shade is unique escape skill for magicka NB in pvp and is already favor over the other morph. I think it should be left that way. Instead, buff the 2 shades morph so it on pair with the bow shade. My suggest is let its damage scale off stam, but still cost magicka to summon, so mag tank can still use it to proc Siphoning, because that's the only use for it; no one slot it for the dps. I never see any magblade dps use this skill, it's a waste of a skill slot.

olsborg

Surprise atk needs no buff imo, its pretty good where its at. I wouldnt mind a class dot for stamblade tho, not for the sake of just getting a buff (we dont need that imo) but would be fun to have more options and build variety. My testing of rapid strikes on pts would incline its a tad OP, but no more then wb is at live atm, so guess the new "2h" will now be "DW"

luxfreak

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

The bow shade is unique escape skill for magicka NB in pvp and is already favor over the other morph. I think it should be left that way. Instead, buff the 2 shades morph so it on pair with the bow shade. My suggest is let its damage it scale off stam, but still cost magicka to summon, so mag tank can still use it to proc Siphoning, because that's the only use for it; no one slot it for the dps. I never see any magblade dps use this skill, it's a waste of a skill slot.

I know of magblades that slot shades in certain fights.
Ofc its dependend on the Boss, but if you have a slot open, it is worth the cast time in terms of dps.
It is not superior to other options you have, that should be slotted instead. But if you cant slot theese for whatever reason, i know that there are magblades, that i think are pretty good, that cast the dual shades.
in PVP the dual shades may loose to the the Bow Shade, but damagewise, the dual shades win.
And whats the bad point for magblades to use a Stamina cosing spell, if its main utility is escape and debuff, and costs only stamina on the inital cast?
Missing Stamina cant realy be a reason, with siphoning, or is that a nogo in pvp?

olsborg

They should rework either one of agonys morpsh or cripples morphs to do disease dmg or poison dmg and scale of stam/wep dmg. You dont see anyone using agony (either morph) these days, or ever...anyway.

mistermutiny89

Rapid Strikes = Channel
Just does damage.

Surprise Attack = Instant cast
Debuffs armour of opponent.
Buffs your armour.
Gives 3% extra health for being slotted.

Hmmm.

luxfreak

olsborg wrote: »

They should rework either one of agonys morpsh or cripples morphs to do disease dmg or poison dmg and scale of stam/wep dmg. You dont see anyone using agony (either morph) these days, or ever...anyway.

This skill is actually not that bad.
While i would never use it, even if it is a stamina spell.
Its just that its range of use is very limmited Nighblades that have a fear as well.
I use agony if i tank in ipc, to stun the healers in trash, as long as they dont stand to near to me.
That skill is 100% utility, its not a damage ability.

Saturn

Erock25 wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

I guess that depends on your definition of sustained pve dps because sorc pve dps plummets outside of overload.

A friend of mine is able to sustain 30k single target dps without Overload. It is true that Sorcerers are tied to their Overload, but it isn't impossible to sustain good dps without it.

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed a few posts that were derailing this discussion. To paraphrase Gold 5: Stay on topic!

Saturn

Derra wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

I have not seen sorcs pulling truely competetive dps in vMOL nor heared of ideal setup ideas involving more than one sorcerer tbh. But if you have other insight please do enlighten me.

The NB comment was only about stamblade (as the topic suggests - sry for any room for misinterpretation here).

I think that a lot of people have trouble with rotation for high sustained Sorcerer DPS, but a friend of mine is really good at it and makes it looks super easy, lol. On Bloodspawn without Overload he could pull 33k single target and 31k on the Tower DPS test.

One of the people capable of pulling the highest DPS on the NA PC server is a stamina Nightblade.

Just because both things require a bit more skill than others does not necessarily mean they are bad. I think your argument would really only make sense if you were refering to stamina sorcerers. They have nothing going for them at all (PvE wise), unfortunately.

I think Sorcerers need a good class spammable attack, every other class has one pretty much.

Silver_Strider

luxfreak wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

Next: the Idea of changing Debiliate into a DoT would certainly be a great dps boost, especially combined with the MSA weapons. On the other hand, it would us make even more into a poor stam dk, where the only difference would be our incap strike and the fact that we dont have a benefit for aoe poison effects.
The same would be for SA. And adding it a DoT would it certainly make it strong, but i cant see how to balance it correctly to not loose its use in PVP/MSA, while beeing a good DoT, thats worth slotting over something else, or changing Bars and casting it as a DoT in group PVE

Here's the thing about Dark shades, it SUCKS. HARD. While being able to proc SA is nice, so can the Shadow Image morph and that morph provides utility in the form of an escape tactic. Dark Shades may deal more damage in stationary fights where the boss is easy to hold still but in fights like Lord Warden, they deal next to no damage and thus barely proc SA or their debuff, whereas Shadow Image can apply it more consistently. Besides that, do magic NB even have sustain issues that would justify the use of SA and Dark Shades? Maybe in vMA where the stamina return could be useful but again, I could just use Shadow Image to not only escape a bad situation but for the exact same purpose as Dark Shades.

Changing the Bow morph to stamina would just make all the PvPers cry because Shadow Image sees regular play they as a means of escape for most so I don't see them changing that morph to stamina any time soon, I just thought that the lesser used morph could be the stamina version, just to help out Stamina sustain because they actually have that problem.

luxfreak

Silver_Strider wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

Next: the Idea of changing Debiliate into a DoT would certainly be a great dps boost, especially combined with the MSA weapons. On the other hand, it would us make even more into a poor stam dk, where the only difference would be our incap strike and the fact that we dont have a benefit for aoe poison effects.
The same would be for SA. And adding it a DoT would it certainly make it strong, but i cant see how to balance it correctly to not loose its use in PVP/MSA, while beeing a good DoT, thats worth slotting over something else, or changing Bars and casting it as a DoT in group PVE

Here's the thing about Dark shades, it SUCKS. HARD. While being able to proc SA is nice, so can the Shadow Image morph and that morph provides utility in the form of an escape tactic. Dark Shades may deal more damage in stationary fights where the boss is easy to hold still but in fights like Lord Warden, they deal next to no damage and thus barely proc SA or their debuff, whereas Shadow Image can apply it more consistently. Besides that, do magic NB even have sustain issues that would justify the use of SA and Dark Shades? Maybe in vMA where the stamina return could be useful but again, I could just use Shadow Image to not only escape a bad situation but for the exact same purpose as Dark Shades.

Changing the Bow morph to stamina would just make all the PvPers cry because Shadow Image sees regular play they as a means of escape for most so I don't see them changing that morph to stamina any time soon, I just thought that the lesser used morph could be the stamina version, just to help out Stamina sustain because they actually have that problem.

The thing wiht siphoning attacks on stamina is this one: it scales with Magika and Spell Damage(?).
It just restores way less on a stamina blade then on a Magika Blade.
so adding another 2 hits/sec wont help us much sustaining it.
Hell, i dont even keep Siphoning up all the time, as it doesnt pay out to switch bars just to recast it.
I only recast it when i cant realy do much else, like in vMol, when running to the towers right befor the explosion.
To realy resolve my stamina issues, i mainly need shards from out healers and templar dds, and in my current setup, a bloodspawn piece(Please dont start a discussion about gear now).
Back to the Shades: as Stamina player, i realy would not mind casting shadows, if the damage is good enought.
If they dont pay otu for Damage, i would only cast them the same as siphonings.

Another Issue i dont understand is, why Magikablades would hate it so much, if there escape costs stamina to cast?
If you need to spam a utility spell, you do something wrong in my mind.
And the releport cast does not cost any ressources.
Mind to explain me?

Anti_Virus

@DDuke

I agree with your OP but I still think SA with outperform simply because of the armor debuff. Major fracture/armor pen will be very effective with all the heavy armor changes you might see more heavy armor builds.

also SA is better because slotting a shadow ability increases max health as well as grant major resolve and major ward.

Anti_Virus

Silver_Strider wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

Next: the Idea of changing Debiliate into a DoT would certainly be a great dps boost, especially combined with the MSA weapons. On the other hand, it would us make even more into a poor stam dk, where the only difference would be our incap strike and the fact that we dont have a benefit for aoe poison effects.
The same would be for SA. And adding it a DoT would it certainly make it strong, but i cant see how to balance it correctly to not loose its use in PVP/MSA, while beeing a good DoT, thats worth slotting over something else, or changing Bars and casting it as a DoT in group PVE

Here's the thing about Dark shades, it SUCKS. HARD. While being able to proc SA is nice, so can the Shadow Image morph and that morph provides utility in the form of an escape tactic. Dark Shades may deal more damage in stationary fights where the boss is easy to hold still but in fights like Lord Warden, they deal next to no damage and thus barely proc SA or their debuff, whereas Shadow Image can apply it more consistently. Besides that, do magic NB even have sustain issues that would justify the use of SA and Dark Shades? Maybe in vMA where the stamina return could be useful but again, I could just use Shadow Image to not only escape a bad situation but for the exact same purpose as Dark Shades.

Changing the Bow morph to stamina would just make all the PvPers cry because Shadow Image sees regular play they as a means of escape for most so I don't see them changing that morph to stamina any time soon, I just thought that the lesser used morph could be the stamina version, just to help out Stamina sustain because they actually have that problem.

I actually would like the other morph(double shades) deal physical dmg it would help melee NBS potentially have 3 dps on a target and archer NBS a 'pet' that deals decent dmg and add pressure.

my 2 cents.