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Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage
-
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
Channel seems to be 0.9 sec. I did multiple tests with ~1min fight duration each and couldn't get below 0.91 sec per cast.The problem is stam dk dps out of control, I am counting on some of them being dunmers tho haha but since it won't be too hard to just reroll a new one now, they need to go down, no doubt.
I am curious and a bit worried about rapid strike > killer's blade, I've never heard about that before. How are you actually calculating this, are you weaving attacks in ther?
Just by tooltips. I have the math on the op.
However, it might be that the tooltips are bugged (or inaccurate) - I analyzed a clip I recorded & it seems the channel duration is still closer to 1s (not 0.6s as stated by tooltip).
I came to this conclusion by going frame to frame from beginning of an attack animation to the end of it (when animation ends & floating dmg number pops up) - so it's not necessarily accurate though.
Maybe someone can figure out a better way to find out the duration of the channel?
Thank you for testing it, seems like another case of tooltip gone wrong :P
I will update the original post with new calculations.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hello,
This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.
Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).
Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:
8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.
0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=
14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.
To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).
So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.
My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?
Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.
What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.
Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.
Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).
Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.
All I'm seeing here is that you liked it better when Surprise Attack was best because everything else was broken.
If slotting Surprise Attack for it's intended use doesn't appeal to your build, then don't use it. What's the problem?"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?4 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hello,
This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.
Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).
Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:
8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.
0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=
14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.
To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).
So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.
My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?
Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.
What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.
Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.
Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).
Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.
All I'm seeing here is that you liked it better when Surprise Attack was best because everything else was broken.
If slotting Surprise Attack for it's intended use doesn't appeal to your build, then don't use it. What's the problem?
How do you get that impression from what I said?
Not everything was broken - stamina nightblade was just competitive in DPS with other builds. Other stamina builds were probably a little too weak, but now it's the other way around.
Stamina NBs: 30k~ DPS if they really push it in vMoL
Stamina Templars: 30-40k DPS
Stamina DKs: 45-50k DPS.
All magicka builds: 35k+
^
That is the problem.3 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hello,
This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.
Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).
Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:
8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.
0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=
14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.
To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).
So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.
My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?
Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.
What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.
Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.
Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).
Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.
All I'm seeing here is that you liked it better when Surprise Attack was best because everything else was broken.
If slotting Surprise Attack for it's intended use doesn't appeal to your build, then don't use it. What's the problem?
How do you get that impression from what I said?
Not everything was broken - stamina nightblade was just competitive in DPS with other builds. Other stamina builds were probably a little too weak, but now it's the other way around.
Stamina NBs: 30k~ DPS if they really push it in vMoL
Stamina Templars: 30-40k DPS
Stamina DKs: 45-50k DPS.
All magicka builds: 35k+
^
That is the problem.
My version of memory lane remembers all Stamina builds being lack-luster which is the only reason Surprise Attack was able to push NBs to the top.
I'm not saying that a buff to Stamina NB dps wouldn't be nice (I play one, so yeah, do it) I just don't know that Surprise Attack is where I'd put it.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a PvE perspective, though I'm considering PvP. If you buff Surprise Attack, you're increasing the ganking potential in PvP, which leads to whining, which leads to nerfs elsewhere.
I'm not the min/maxing type, I don't stress over every percentage point. From a PvE standpoint, I don't feel like I -need- to be topping the charts in dps. What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
It's usually the tank's job to debuff the target's resistance.ShedsHisTail wrote: »What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
But I do agree that the solution isn't to buff SA. It's to buff stamblades elsewhere, like turning Debilitating Grasp (magblades almost always use Crippling Grasp instead) into a stamina morph so that stamblades have a good DoT to work with.Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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Tyrannitar✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »
Do you feel the mob of Stamina Sorcs glaring at you?Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.
I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.
*** these forums, always play fotm
Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.
They're a myth and currently don't exist
But after next patch, even they will deal more damage than stamina NBs in PvE
This isn't even close to halfway true and I'm sorry.
Extravagant claims require extravagant evidence bruh
and stam sorcs are essays if not novels further behind you guys in terms of PvE dps.My Cat Two Chainz (Main) - AD Stam Sorc
Post Malone - AD Mag Blade
Ba'al Sahk- AD Stam DK
Vampy Cat- AD Perma-WW Templar
610 CP as of 12/12/20163 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a PvE perspective, though I'm considering PvP. If you buff Surprise Attack, you're increasing the ganking potential in PvP, which leads to whining, which leads to nerfs elsewhere.
I'm not the min/maxing type, I don't stress over every percentage point. From a PvE standpoint, I don't feel like I -need- to be topping the charts in dps. What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
Tanks already apply the same Major Fracture debuff by simply taunting, and you'd get 20%+ DPS by slotting Rapid Strikes instead.
I do understand that buffing the burst damage could create imbalance - what I'm saying is that it could get a delayed DoT or similar effect to make it viable PvE without increasing the burst in PvP.
This could also fix some of the issues stamina nightblades have in 1v1 in PvP, without buffing the already strong aspects.0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
It's usually the tank's job to debuff the target's resistance.ShedsHisTail wrote: »What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
But I do agree that the solution isn't to buff SA. It's to buff stamblades elsewhere, like turning Debilitating Grasp (magblades almost always use Crippling Grasp instead) into a stamina morph so that stamblades have a good DoT to work with.
This is also something that could work, though Surprise Attack would still stay outside NB PvE rotations.Tyrannitar wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Do you feel the mob of Stamina Sorcs glaring at you?Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.
I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.
*** these forums, always play fotm
Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.
They're a myth and currently don't exist
But after next patch, even they will deal more damage than stamina NBs in PvE
This isn't even close to halfway true and I'm sorry.
Extravagant claims require extravagant evidence bruh
and stam sorcs are essays if not novels further behind you guys in terms of PvE dps.
Next patch, you have practically the same skills as NB in PvE (well, no Killer's Blade - but you get Hurricane), but stronger passives for DPS than Nightblades have.
Rapid Strikes at 15% health should be dealing insane damage as stamina sorcerer, proccing Implosion almost every second (Rapid Strikes 5 hits every second+DW bleed+Rending Slashes+Hurricane).
To put it simply: Stamina sorcerers will be leaps & bounds better DPS than stamblades next patch (no, I'm not saying too strong - stam sorcs probably still wont reach stam DK numbers)Edited by DDuke on May 12, 2016 10:44PM0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a PvE perspective, though I'm considering PvP. If you buff Surprise Attack, you're increasing the ganking potential in PvP, which leads to whining, which leads to nerfs elsewhere.
I'm not the min/maxing type, I don't stress over every percentage point. From a PvE standpoint, I don't feel like I -need- to be topping the charts in dps. What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
Tanks already apply the same Major Fracture debuff by simply taunting, and you'd get 20%+ DPS by slotting Rapid Strikes instead.
I do understand that buffing the burst damage could create imbalance - what I'm saying is that it could get a delayed DoT or similar effect to make it viable PvE without increasing the burst in PvP.
This could also fix some of the issues stamina nightblades have in 1v1 in PvP, without buffing the already strong aspects.
I must have missed your mention of a DoT before; like a bleed or something?
I could get behind that.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Tyrannitar✭✭✭
It's usually the tank's job to debuff the target's resistance.ShedsHisTail wrote: »What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
But I do agree that the solution isn't to buff SA. It's to buff stamblades elsewhere, like turning Debilitating Grasp (magblades almost always use Crippling Grasp instead) into a stamina morph so that stamblades have a good DoT to work with.
This is also something that could work, though Surprise Attack would still stay outside NB PvE rotations.Tyrannitar wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Do you feel the mob of Stamina Sorcs glaring at you?Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.
I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.
*** these forums, always play fotm
Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.
They're a myth and currently don't exist
But after next patch, even they will deal more damage than stamina NBs in PvE
This isn't even close to halfway true and I'm sorry.
Extravagant claims require extravagant evidence bruh
and stam sorcs are essays if not novels further behind you guys in terms of PvE dps.
Next patch, you have practically the same skills as NB in PvE (well, no Killer's Blade - but you get Hurricane), but stronger passives for DPS than Nightblades have.
Rapid Strikes at 15% health should be dealing insane damage as stamina sorcerer, proccing Implosion almost every second (Rapid Strikes 5 hits every second+DW bleed+Rending Slashes+Hurricane).
To put it simply: Stamina sorcerers will be leaps & bounds better DPS than stamblades next patch (no, I'm not saying too strong - stam sorcs probably still wont reach stam DK numbers)
Yo... It's a 6% proc. It doesn't happen every second, not to mention you guys get passives from skills like minor force and crit boosting skill passives.
What do we have besides what you mentioned?
EDIT: ....Not to mention that once a boss is at 15%, 1 second is about 1/3rd of the fight at that point... if you think a 6k proc once every two seconds is a significant increase in terms of overall dps in endgame content..... bruhEdited by Tyrannitar on May 12, 2016 10:50PMMy Cat Two Chainz (Main) - AD Stam Sorc
Post Malone - AD Mag Blade
Ba'al Sahk- AD Stam DK
Vampy Cat- AD Perma-WW Templar
610 CP as of 12/12/20161 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a PvE perspective, though I'm considering PvP. If you buff Surprise Attack, you're increasing the ganking potential in PvP, which leads to whining, which leads to nerfs elsewhere.
I'm not the min/maxing type, I don't stress over every percentage point. From a PvE standpoint, I don't feel like I -need- to be topping the charts in dps. What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
Tanks already apply the same Major Fracture debuff by simply taunting, and you'd get 20%+ DPS by slotting Rapid Strikes instead.
I do understand that buffing the burst damage could create imbalance - what I'm saying is that it could get a delayed DoT or similar effect to make it viable PvE without increasing the burst in PvP.
This could also fix some of the issues stamina nightblades have in 1v1 in PvP, without buffing the already strong aspects.
I must have missed your mention of a DoT before; like a bleed or something?
I could get behind that.
Well, if you give Surprise Attack a DoT it'd just be more de facto burst damage, since DoTs tick almost instantly.
What could work is something like "applies a lethal poison to your opponent that bursts after 6 seconds, dealing X damage over X seconds. Stacks up to 5 times."
But I'm just spitballing ideas here.Edited by DDuke on May 12, 2016 10:49PM0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Please keep in mind that I'm speaking from a PvE perspective, though I'm considering PvP. If you buff Surprise Attack, you're increasing the ganking potential in PvP, which leads to whining, which leads to nerfs elsewhere.
I'm not the min/maxing type, I don't stress over every percentage point. From a PvE standpoint, I don't feel like I -need- to be topping the charts in dps. What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
Tanks already apply the same Major Fracture debuff by simply taunting, and you'd get 20%+ DPS by slotting Rapid Strikes instead.
I do understand that buffing the burst damage could create imbalance - what I'm saying is that it could get a delayed DoT or similar effect to make it viable PvE without increasing the burst in PvP.
This could also fix some of the issues stamina nightblades have in 1v1 in PvP, without buffing the already strong aspects.
I must have missed your mention of a DoT before; like a bleed or something?
I could get behind that.
Well, if you give Surprise Attack a DoT it'd just be more de facto burst damage, since DoTs tick almost instantly.
What could work is something like "applies a lethal poison to your opponent that bursts after 6 seconds, dealing X damage over X seconds. Stacks up to 5 times."
But I'm just spitballing ideas here.
Just make it so the DoT doesn't apply until the stun wears off.
If they are immune to the stun, DoT applies instantly.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tyrannitar wrote: »
It's usually the tank's job to debuff the target's resistance.ShedsHisTail wrote: »What makes Surprise Attack valuable, to me, in my PvE rotation is the debuff. Lowering the targets armor, not only increases my dps, but the dps of my whole group. Which makes everyone's life easier.
Isn't that what group content is about? Succeeding as a group?
But I do agree that the solution isn't to buff SA. It's to buff stamblades elsewhere, like turning Debilitating Grasp (magblades almost always use Crippling Grasp instead) into a stamina morph so that stamblades have a good DoT to work with.
This is also something that could work, though Surprise Attack would still stay outside NB PvE rotations.Tyrannitar wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »
Do you feel the mob of Stamina Sorcs glaring at you?Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.
I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.
*** these forums, always play fotm
Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.
They're a myth and currently don't exist
But after next patch, even they will deal more damage than stamina NBs in PvE
This isn't even close to halfway true and I'm sorry.
Extravagant claims require extravagant evidence bruh
and stam sorcs are essays if not novels further behind you guys in terms of PvE dps.
Next patch, you have practically the same skills as NB in PvE (well, no Killer's Blade - but you get Hurricane), but stronger passives for DPS than Nightblades have.
Rapid Strikes at 15% health should be dealing insane damage as stamina sorcerer, proccing Implosion almost every second (Rapid Strikes 5 hits every second+DW bleed+Rending Slashes+Hurricane).
To put it simply: Stamina sorcerers will be leaps & bounds better DPS than stamblades next patch (no, I'm not saying too strong - stam sorcs probably still wont reach stam DK numbers)
Yo... It's a 6% proc. It doesn't happen every second, not to mention you guys get passives from skills like minor force and crit boosting skill passives.
What do we have besides what you mentioned?
Rapid Strikes alone has 30% chance of proccing it. Arrow Barrage ticking every 0,5 seconds adds another 12% chance of proccing (now up to 42%). Add in Rending Slashes, DW Bleed ticking every 2 seconds (48%).
It's not proccing every second, but pretty damn often considering the amount of dmg it deals...
Again, I'm not saying it's broken - stam sorcs didn't have an execute & stam DKs are still most likely going to deal more DPS with all their DoTs, but there's no chance a NB can compete with that.
Also, the Energized passive increasing Physical damage by 5% is huge. This is equal to 400 weapon damage and is actually the strongest passive for any stamina build at the moment.
5% base damage=10%++ crit damage when DPSing with Beast Trap, Warhorn etc.
& if you compare to Templar +6% weapon damage... a templar would have to get over 6k weapon damage to get the same benefit in terms of flat dmg.0 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If a stam nightblade gets sustained dps in pve, then give magicka DK's burts dps in pvp.
:) PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OrphanHelgen wrote: »If a stam nightblade gets sustained dps in pve, then give magicka DK's burts dps in pvp.:)
They do have that - only those builds aren't very viable compared to other ones out there.
Molten Armaments->Inferno Staff Heavy Attack+Meteor+Shattering Rocks (this morph for Off Balanced & +50% dmg on heavy attack).
Elegance set for +20% Heavy Attack damage next patch.
The main issue with that isn't burst, you can instagib people easily by landing that combo - the problem with that kind of build is survivability. I have had a dunmer ranged magicka DK I've wanted to play for a long time, but I cant quite figure out how to make her survive and deal that burst. Got some ideas for next patch though 1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Tyrannitar wrote: »EDIT: ....Not to mention that once a boss is at 15%, 1 second is about 1/3rd of the fight at that point... if you think a 6k proc once every two seconds is a significant increase in terms of overall dps in endgame content..... bruh
6k proc
...
6k?
This is not even full DPS gear and I'm completely unbuffed.0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons
PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.
SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons
PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.
SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)
Valid.
"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
acw37162✭✭✭✭✭
✭Reading this thread makes me ecstatic there is no end of instance scorecard in the game.
This thread holds the fascination of a train wreck for me I can't stop reading it and shaking my head.3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons
PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.
SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)
Yeah, I did test both in PvP & I'll have to agree that Surprise Attack will still see use there.
My initial impressions were that Rapid Strikes would deal 55% more DPS, but turns out the cast time is around 0.9-1s instead of the 0.6 indicated in the tooltip. So it isn't enough of a DPS increase to really tip the scales.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Reading this thread makes me ecstatic there is no end of instance scorecard in the game.
This thread holds the fascination of a train wreck for me I can't stop reading it and shaking my head.
Oh, is there something I'm wrong about? Please, do point out.
People already pointed out the fact there might be something off with the cast time of Rapid Strikes, so I've corrected that.
Rest should still be valid I believe?
I'm glad you find the thread fascinating - I find it fascinating too how far behind NBs are compared to other classes in terms of sustained DPS.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons
PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.
SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)
Yeah, I did test both in PvP & I'll have to agree that Surprise Attack will still see use there.
My initial impressions were that Rapid Strikes would deal 55% more DPS, but turns out the cast time is around 0.9-1s instead of the 0.6 indicated in the tooltip. So it isn't enough of a DPS increase to really tip the scales.
Incidentally, I re-read the patch notes and it -does- say 0.6 seconds.
But, like @Xsorus was saying, you don't have to wait on the global cool down to drop in a light attack right after your SA. There's other things you can be doing in the time that a Flurry is finishing up.Edited by ShedsHisTail on May 12, 2016 11:58PM"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvP and PVE wise templars will always use Jabs as well simply cause Burning Light.
DK's tend to use Flurry in PVE cause Maelstrom Daggers but you don't see it used in PvP often...I'm going to try and see how it works with my current setup in comparison to Ransack/Bash/Light Attack Combo with 1hd/shield... but i'm not sure it will be as good...Not to mention I like to put my Dots on the DW bar. You generally won't see Flurry used by many in PvP in general except for maybe Sorcs after this patch..even then i think R/B/L combo would probably even be better on Sorc.
but PvE he is correct, if you're dot based Maelstrom is just going to out dps most things if you're stamina.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
This game is plagued by problems with animations, animation canceling, and attack weaving. They don't balance the game around this but it creates balance disparty between classes especially in difficult content and I'm speaking specifically about PVP and veteran trials so it creates haves and have nots.
They need to take a hard look at this but I doubt it. Game has been out 2 years now and they're still balancing the classes.
Edited by davidautry_ESO on May 13, 2016 12:10AM1 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Where do you get these numbers from?ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hello,
This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.
Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).
Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:
8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.
0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=
14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.
To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).
So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.
My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?
Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.
What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.
Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.
Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).
Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.
All I'm seeing here is that you liked it better when Surprise Attack was best because everything else was broken.
If slotting Surprise Attack for it's intended use doesn't appeal to your build, then don't use it. What's the problem?
How do you get that impression from what I said?
Not everything was broken - stamina nightblade was just competitive in DPS with other builds. Other stamina builds were probably a little too weak, but now it's the other way around.
Stamina NBs: 30k~ DPS if they really push it in vMoL
Stamina Templars: 30-40k DPS
Stamina DKs: 45-50k DPS.
All magicka builds: 35k+
^
That is the problem.
#MOREORBS2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PvP and PVE wise templars will always use Jabs as well simply cause Burning Light.
DK's tend to use Flurry in PVE cause Maelstrom Daggers but you don't see it used in PvP often...I'm going to try and see how it works with my current setup in comparison to Ransack/Bash/Light Attack Combo with 1hd/shield... but i'm not sure it will be as good...Not to mention I like to put my Dots on the DW bar. You generally won't see Flurry used by many in PvP in general except for maybe Sorcs after this patch..even then i think R/B/L combo would probably even be better on Sorc.
but PvE he is correct, if you're dot based Maelstrom is just going to out dps most things if you're stamina.
There's a lot of top DK players in EU switching to DW rather than the usual 2H/S&B next patch
Mainly for the DK DoT+vMSA weapons synergy with the shorter cast time Rapid Strikes, but also for the insane buffed up DBOS you can get with vMSA daggers.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Where do you get these numbers from?ShedsHisTail wrote: »ShedsHisTail wrote: »Hello,
This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.
Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).
Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:
8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.
0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=
14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.
To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).
So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.
My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?
Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.
What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.
Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.
Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).
Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.
All I'm seeing here is that you liked it better when Surprise Attack was best because everything else was broken.
If slotting Surprise Attack for it's intended use doesn't appeal to your build, then don't use it. What's the problem?
How do you get that impression from what I said?
Not everything was broken - stamina nightblade was just competitive in DPS with other builds. Other stamina builds were probably a little too weak, but now it's the other way around.
Stamina NBs: 30k~ DPS if they really push it in vMoL
Stamina Templars: 30-40k DPS
Stamina DKs: 45-50k DPS.
All magicka builds: 35k+
^
That is the problem.
Just our daily vMoL runs as well as videos I watch on youtube
Why, is there something odd with them?Edited by DDuke on May 13, 2016 12:15AM1 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'd like to know how @Gilliamtherogue and @Jeckll feel about the state of stamblades compared to other classes and what they'd like to see added / changed if anything.
Edited by SanTii.92 on May 13, 2016 12:33AMWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'd like to know how @Gilliamtherogue and @Jeckll feel about the state of stamblades compared to other classes and what they'd like to see added / changed if anything.
You just listed (afaik) two of the three Stamina Nightblades (I'm the 3rd) to ever have completed vMoL, what does that tell you
Well, to be fair I dont think any stam sorc has ever completed it, so I guess they're even worse off...Edited by DDuke on May 13, 2016 12:42AM1