Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage

kadar

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons

PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.

SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)

You can weave fully charged heavy attacks with flurry though, can't you?

It's similar to how you do it with wrecking blow.

Yeap, Its not as viable as Surprise Attack/Light Attack/Bash but you can weave it

The bash wastes stamina though. Isn't that more of a 1h shield combo as you have the passive? Doing the bash combo with dw or 2h just seems too hungry for stamina.

Maybe for sustained damage you'd be wasting stam, but for burst it's beautiful. I've noted some nasty crits bash cancelling. And it's an extra chance to proc camo hunter.

XaXa

Did some more goofing off with Flurry weaving. A previous poster was correct in their guess that the weave style is similar to weaving Wrecking Blow with a heavy attack. Right after I cast Rapid Strikes I would hold down heavy attack. As the last Rapid Strikes hit connected I would release Heavy Attack and immediately hit Rapid Strikes again. Heavy attack would connect and be cancelled right into another Rapid Strikes.

dday3six

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@DDuke

I agree with your OP but I still think SA with outperform simply because of the armor debuff. Major fracture/armor pen will be very effective with all the heavy armor changes you might see more heavy armor builds.

also SA is better because slotting a shadow ability increases max health as well as grant major resolve and major ward.

Even with the debuff and passives. Surprise Attack just cannot compete with the raw damage of Rapid Strikes, and it's worse when you factor in Maelstrom DW for Rapid Strikes into Rending Slashes or Dawnbreaker synergy.

ryanborror

For pvp surprise attack still has its place. Rapid strikes is still hard to land on another player and SA doesn't do any less damage than it used to. For pve rapid strikes will be the go to now for all Stam builds especially with maelstrom daggers. Stam dk will probably break 40k dps easily with this and the changes to their class skills. For nightblade though it is a buff making them more competitive but it makes surprise attack kind of useless which is a shame because it's so much cooler than rapid strikes. Rapid strikes animation just looks stupid too kind of like someone doing the robot

Sublime

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

This post is PvP only, I've no idea how to play PvE.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I feel should be considered:

• SA has one advantage over Flurry, it's a class skill. I.e. you can use it alongside whatever weapon you like, opening up a whole lot of possibilities.
• I've seen arguments about specific setups (typically stam DK vs stam NB), and while I don't mind comparing, I want to emphasize that ESO is an MMORPG and therefore shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 matchups.

Oh how I love the consistency of the forums.

Radiant Destruction OP? It's only OP in open world, not viable in a 1v1, therefore it's balanced.

Flurry is outperforming Surprise Attack? "We shouldn't be balancing based on 1v1 match ups"

Lol it's quite comical.

Different people have different opinions. (and 1vX =/= open world)

luxfreak

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/NvOxZk9.png

night blades need what .......? a sustainable dps ability ......... lol please indulge me on how this is a relevant argument when you see this table in front of you and classes such as stam sorcs who don't even have an instant dps ability are still been shoved under the bus, well not lately stam sorc is being addressed which is great but honestly look at this table and ask yourself.... or go to a mirror first and revaluate your arguments that stam night blades need something to be more competitive.

(knowing big words and being competent at copy and paste doesn't make your argument valid anyone can do it lol)

no hate just putting a light on obvious facts that get overlooked by false claims.

Sooo, first of all, yes on live stam sorcs are even less viable then stam blades.
Next: on PTS Stam Sorcs are actually quite viable, since 2.4.2.
Additionally, Stamblades got a nerf on Incap Strike with 2.4.3, because of PVP players getting instakilled.(I belive the nerf will change nothing)
Right now i am realy thinking about trashing my Stam Blade for PVE, until it gets a PVE Buff, and only use it in PVP.
In PVE blades are nearly the same as Stam Sorces, even more after the Patch.
We only have the Assasin Bow, and Incap Strike, which i probebly will use nearly never due to Dawnbreaker beeing better when there are 2-3 enemys.
Assasin Bow may hit harder now, but Stam Sorcs got tons of buffs to them.
We only have Killers Blade, and even there its questionable if its realy a DPS Increase, if you can weave Flurry perfect.("20% extra dmg under 25% due to DW Passiv)
In PVE, a DoT, or any kind of similar DMG, is prefered over a instant Damage ability.
So Right Now, Stamblades are in quite the Heavy Spot, any maybe the weakest of all PVE classes.
In PVP we only REALY excell at ganking, and come on, MAG Blades with Fan+Deto+Tether+VD, tell me thats not the same, mayby even worse then what Stam Blades can Do.

lathbury

luxfreak wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

http://i.imgur.com/NvOxZk9.png

night blades need what .......? a sustainable dps ability ......... lol please indulge me on how this is a relevant argument when you see this table in front of you and classes such as stam sorcs who don't even have an instant dps ability are still been shoved under the bus, well not lately stam sorc is being addressed which is great but honestly look at this table and ask yourself.... or go to a mirror first and revaluate your arguments that stam night blades need something to be more competitive.

(knowing big words and being competent at copy and paste doesn't make your argument valid anyone can do it lol)

no hate just putting a light on obvious facts that get overlooked by false claims.

Sooo, first of all, yes on live stam sorcs are even less viable then stam blades.
Next: on PTS Stam Sorcs are actually quite viable, since 2.4.2.
Additionally, Stamblades got a nerf on Incap Strike with 2.4.3, because of PVP players getting instakilled.(I belive the nerf will change nothing)
Right now i am realy thinking about trashing my Stam Blade for PVE, until it gets a PVE Buff, and only use it in PVP.
In PVE blades are nearly the same as Stam Sorces, even more after the Patch.
We only have the Assasin Bow, and Incap Strike, which i probebly will use nearly never due to Dawnbreaker beeing better when there are 2-3 enemys.
Assasin Bow may hit harder now, but Stam Sorcs got tons of buffs to them.
We only have Killers Blade, and even there its questionable if its realy a DPS Increase, if you can weave Flurry perfect.("20% extra dmg under 25% due to DW Passiv)
In PVE, a DoT, or any kind of similar DMG, is prefered over a instant Damage ability.
So Right Now, Stamblades are in quite the Heavy Spot, any maybe the weakest of all PVE classes.
In PVP we only REALY excell at ganking, and come on, MAG Blades with Fan+Deto+Tether+VD, tell me thats not the same, mayby even worse then what Stam Blades can Do.

posted this idea in another thread what if heamorage passive also increased the effect of bleed dots considerably it would give a nb access to a strong dot and decentish heal from dw . without buffing mag blade who are ok or throwing pvp burst damage out of whack

khele23eb17_ESO

ryanborror wrote: »

For pvp surprise attack still has its place. Rapid strikes is still hard to land on another player and SA doesn't do any less damage than it used to. For pve rapid strikes will be the go to now for all Stam builds especially with maelstrom daggers. Stam dk will probably break 40k dps easily with this and the changes to their class skills. For nightblade though it is a buff making them more competitive but it makes surprise attack kind of useless which is a shame because it's so much cooler than rapid strikes.

If itll be used by everyone how does it make NBs more competitive?

I never understood whats so hard about balancing class dps. Almost every MMO ive played has fans who devise spreadsheets which calculate dps of classes with the accuracy of decimal points. Spreadsheets which let you input your gear, enchnats, skills, buffs and the type of rotation youre using and get an accurate dps number. If fans can do this in their spare time how are devs somehow unable to when being paid for it?

Refuse2GrowUp

Let's also not forget that SA is most likely the only skill you are going to have slotted from the Shadow skill line, especially in group play PvE, and therefore you will get 3% max health having it slotted. And a good SA weave will pretty much keep Major Ward and Major Resolve up 100% of the time. Yes, Flurry may put out more DPS, but the whole point is to have options.

At the end of the day, Stamblades are extremely powerful in PvP, and will be even more so once DB goes live. It will be very hard for the devs to buff SA or Killers Blade without consequently making the best burst gankers even stronger. Until the devs create separate PvP and PvE profiles, it simply is-what-it-is.

Simply, if you feel your Stamblade doesn't measure up in PvE, then keep him for PvP and level a new toon for PvE. I created a magicka and stamina of every class so that I can roll with the punches when the nerf/buff pendulum swings, and because I enjoy learning the strengths and weaknesses of each class and having options when I play. Doesn't mean your stamblade is dead or forsaken just because you roll another toon.

DDuke

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Let's also not forget that SA is most likely the only skill you are going to have slotted from the Shadow skill line, especially in group play PvE, and therefore you will get 3% max health having it slotted. And a good SA weave will pretty much keep Major Ward and Major Resolve up 100% of the time. Yes, Flurry may put out more DPS, but the whole point is to have options.

At the end of the day, Stamblades are extremely powerful in PvP, and will be even more so once DB goes live. It will be very hard for the devs to buff SA or Killers Blade without consequently making the best burst gankers even stronger. Until the devs create separate PvP and PvE profiles, it simply is-what-it-is.

Simply, if you feel your Stamblade doesn't measure up in PvE, then keep him for PvP and level a new toon for PvE. I created a magicka and stamina of every class so that I can roll with the punches when the nerf/buff pendulum swings, and because I enjoy learning the strengths and weaknesses of each class and having options when I play. Doesn't mean your stamblade is dead or forsaken just because you roll another toon.

What a perfectly misinformed opinion with the most optimal solution: reroll another class.

Thank you for your input.


I do have every class in stam/magicka apart from stam DK leveled up - that does not mean I wouldn't like to play my Stamina Nightblade (in both PvE & PvP, where they're weak).

Helluin

More than buff SA, it's Flurry that should be tuned down.

genjutsu_kami

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

ryanborror wrote: »

For pvp surprise attack still has its place. Rapid strikes is still hard to land on another player and SA doesn't do any less damage than it used to. For pve rapid strikes will be the go to now for all Stam builds especially with maelstrom daggers. Stam dk will probably break 40k dps easily with this and the changes to their class skills. For nightblade though it is a buff making them more competitive but it makes surprise attack kind of useless which is a shame because it's so much cooler than rapid strikes.

If itll be used by everyone how does it make NBs more competitive?

I never understood whats so hard about balancing class dps. Almost every MMO ive played has fans who devise spreadsheets which calculate dps of classes with the accuracy of decimal points. Spreadsheets which let you input your gear, enchnats, skills, buffs and the type of rotation youre using and get an accurate dps number. If fans can do this in their spare time how are devs somehow unable to when being paid for it?

devs only adrress issues that will bring new players in so new players can spend a little money

@Wrobel tell me I'm wrong......

Attackopsn

So the issue is pve group dps after db, what if instead of getting minor berserk from grim focus, they just received 8% damage in pve, and minor berserk in pvp? That would make their class buff a unique buff that increased their dps in trials after being targeted by combat prayer without buffing them in pvp.

Van_0S

DDuke wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Surprise Attack is currently pretty much the weakest stamina skill you can slot in terms of sustained DPS, and much worse than the PTS Rapid Strikes. I've posted the numbers to prove it, maybe you can post ones to prove me wrong?

You just posted some numbers...
...you didnt show how you got there + plus you dont have any evidence for your assumptions.

Please do a video where you cast Flurry 50 times in 30 seconds to show that there is no cooldown.

So here's a video showing Rapid Strikes indeed has no global cooldown between casts (like all channels):

https://youtu.be/bofY3o3tA2g


I must say, I do like the new version much better - it's just a shame that it's so much better than the one good thing Nightblades could have in PvE (but don't).

Cooooooooool!!!!!!!

Goodbye 2H!!
Welcome back DW!!

kaorunandrak

Asmael wrote: »

1086 * 1.00
+ 1086 * 1.03 (1118,58)
+ 1086 * 1.06 (1151.16)
+ 1086 * 1.09 (1183,74)
+ 4344 * 1.12 (4865,28)

---

= 9404,76 flurry damage per cast on average

Now, 8454 damage for SA, and a reduction of armor by 5280, which is equivalent to 10,56% damage increase against NPCs, since even for v16 mobs, 500 armor is the same as 1% mitigation (vs 663 for players). The actual SA damage is then 9347 supposing you reduce that amount on a mob.

Also, do note that the GCD of instant cast abilities is not 1 second, but closer to 0.85 - 0.9. So SA isn't near as bad as stated, but...

• In a realistic boss fight, the target will usually be debuffed by the tank (Pierce armor), making the major buff irrelevant, unless you agree that the tank will not use pierce armor (which is probably not recommended).
• SA, or just about any stam ability for that matter, will be absolutely CRUSHED by the current BiS for weapons: maelstrom weapons, and the Cruel Flurry proc. This alone is enough to make any other DPS ability completely irrelevant, if they have no synergy with Flurry and mael. procs.
• SA provides Major Ward / Resolve and a stun when cloaked, altho stun is irrelevant, considering heavy attack can stun from stealth as well.
• Flurry benefits from damage against low health targets, altho not that relevant, considering Killer's Blade in PvE.

TL;DR: Flurry beats SA in PvE, but Flurry beats pretty much everything else, and actually gets an EVEN STRONGER synergy with mael weapons. with DB DLC. Nothing new under the sun I guess.

And this along with many other reasons is why I keep saying there is not point in using any other weapon outside of dual wield. dual wield is too good for everything.

khele23eb17_ESO

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Let's also not forget that SA is most likely the only skill you are going to have slotted from the Shadow skill line, especially in group play PvE, and therefore you will get 3% max health having it slotted. And a good SA weave will pretty much keep Major Ward and Major Resolve up 100% of the time. Yes, Flurry may put out more DPS, but the whole point is to have options.

At the end of the day, Stamblades are extremely powerful in PvP, and will be even more so once DB goes live. It will be very hard for the devs to buff SA or Killers Blade without consequently making the best burst gankers even stronger. Until the devs create separate PvP and PvE profiles, it simply is-what-it-is.

Simply, if you feel your Stamblade doesn't measure up in PvE, then keep him for PvP and level a new toon for PvE.

Are you trying to say there is no way to buff sustained dps without buffing burst? Thats simply not true.

Refuse2GrowUp

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Let's also not forget that SA is most likely the only skill you are going to have slotted from the Shadow skill line, especially in group play PvE, and therefore you will get 3% max health having it slotted. And a good SA weave will pretty much keep Major Ward and Major Resolve up 100% of the time. Yes, Flurry may put out more DPS, but the whole point is to have options.

At the end of the day, Stamblades are extremely powerful in PvP, and will be even more so once DB goes live. It will be very hard for the devs to buff SA or Killers Blade without consequently making the best burst gankers even stronger. Until the devs create separate PvP and PvE profiles, it simply is-what-it-is.

Simply, if you feel your Stamblade doesn't measure up in PvE, then keep him for PvP and level a new toon for PvE.

Are you trying to say there is no way to buff sustained dps without buffing burst? Thats simply not true.

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Let's also not forget that SA is most likely the only skill you are going to have slotted from the Shadow skill line, especially in group play PvE, and therefore you will get 3% max health having it slotted. And a good SA weave will pretty much keep Major Ward and Major Resolve up 100% of the time. Yes, Flurry may put out more DPS, but the whole point is to have options.

At the end of the day, Stamblades are extremely powerful in PvP, and will be even more so once DB goes live. It will be very hard for the devs to buff SA or Killers Blade without consequently making the best burst gankers even stronger. Until the devs create separate PvP and PvE profiles, it simply is-what-it-is.

Simply, if you feel your Stamblade doesn't measure up in PvE, then keep him for PvP and level a new toon for PvE.

Are you trying to say there is no way to buff sustained dps without buffing burst? Thats simply not true.

As a general rule, if something does more damage over time, it does more damage in a short duration as well. Of course there are skills whose damage increase the longer it is applied, but I am answering your blanket statement with one as well.

That said, my comments about SA where not blanket or vague. Simply, if you increase the damage of SA, you increase the burst damage, or more accurately the burst potential, of Stamblades. I am sure this is something the devs take into account.

I will also agree that Flurry is a very powerful skill in its current state. It was rarely, if ever, used before Maelstrom weapons made the skill viable again; which I am sure was the intent of the Maelstrom buff. With the DB channel duration reduction, Flurry will become all that much more appealing. Yes, it will quite likely be utilized over SA, especially in PvE. So what. That is like me complaining Wall of Elements outperforms any other magicka based ground DoT with the use of Maelstrom Destros and asking for all other ground DoTs to be buffed. At the end of the day, we all have options, and that is never a bad thing.

kaorunandrak

I think the recent champion point additions + the maelstrom weapons are what revitalized and put flurry over the top. The fact that flurry is considered a dot and gets to double dip in champion points needs to be addressed Channeled abilities shouldn't be part of the damage over time champion buff. If those abilities aren't doing enough damage without it then their base damage needs to be increased (looking at you jabs/radiant). That said I don't think the answer to this problem is buffing SA it's nerfing dual wield which needs to be nerfed it's to strong in every way.

Strider_Roshin

kaorunandrak wrote: »

I think the recent champion point additions + the maelstrom weapons are what revitalized and put flurry over the top. The fact that flurry is considered a dot and gets to double dip in champion points needs to be addressed Channeled abilities shouldn't be part of the damage over time champion buff. If those abilities aren't doing enough damage without it then their base damage needs to be increased (looking at you jabs/radiant). That said I don't think the answer to this problem is buffing SA it's nerfing dual wield which needs to be nerfed it's to strong in every way.

Man I've been echoing this for a while, and yeah channeling moves are becoming way too powerful with the double dipping.