Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage

SanTii.92

At this point I think we can confidently say that first, stam dks dps is way out of proportion, no argument here. And second, the simple fact that we don't have any skill to use for damage, until the execute phase, speaks for itself, we are as generic as we could possibly be. My proposal, a skill that revolves around crit chance, which apparently is our theme. Something like, after 5 crits procc this, a big hit.

I do understand this is part of a different balance cycle, but it has to be adressed at some point

AfkNinja

If NB gets another stamina morph for a DOT, which I am not against, I think it's only fair Sorc and Templar get another stamina morph as 3 is just not enough. Or hell, I'd take major fracture and a bleed on Binding Javelin and be happy.

Silver_Strider

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

luxfreak wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

They just need to make a handful of changes to NB abilities so that they'd have more sustain damage.

Changing Debilitate into a stamina morph would be really beneficial as a start.

Changing Dark Shades to a stamina morph that deals disease damage and altering the way they behave would also help. Currently, they run towards their target which makes them use up a large bit of their short timer. Come on, they're rouges, they should be able to teleport strike towards their target and start wailing on them asap, not be some easy to kite nuisance.

I wouldn't mind a DoT added to Surprise attack but lets look at the other skills in the NB's arsenal that need a buff before going and making an already good attack even more powerful.

While i think it could be a nice idea fot the Shades to deal Physical Damage, i think this would be quite a nerf to Magika Players, and magika tanks. Thats because the shades damage dont count as DoT, so can proc siphoning attacks.
They also deal quite some Damage for the Magika builds and are for certain situations a realy good choice, when you can eg not stay close to your target and it moves around much.

If they change the Shades, i would hope more for the Bow shade to deal physical damage(that would fit the image of a stamina player so much better)

Next: the Idea of changing Debiliate into a DoT would certainly be a great dps boost, especially combined with the MSA weapons. On the other hand, it would us make even more into a poor stam dk, where the only difference would be our incap strike and the fact that we dont have a benefit for aoe poison effects.
The same would be for SA. And adding it a DoT would it certainly make it strong, but i cant see how to balance it correctly to not loose its use in PVP/MSA, while beeing a good DoT, thats worth slotting over something else, or changing Bars and casting it as a DoT in group PVE

Here's the thing about Dark shades, it SUCKS. HARD. While being able to proc SA is nice, so can the Shadow Image morph and that morph provides utility in the form of an escape tactic. Dark Shades may deal more damage in stationary fights where the boss is easy to hold still but in fights like Lord Warden, they deal next to no damage and thus barely proc SA or their debuff, whereas Shadow Image can apply it more consistently. Besides that, do magic NB even have sustain issues that would justify the use of SA and Dark Shades? Maybe in vMA where the stamina return could be useful but again, I could just use Shadow Image to not only escape a bad situation but for the exact same purpose as Dark Shades.

Changing the Bow morph to stamina would just make all the PvPers cry because Shadow Image sees regular play there as a means of escape for most so I don't see them changing that morph to stamina any time soon, I just thought that the lesser used morph could be the stamina version, just to help out Stamina sustain because they actually have that problem.

I actually would like the other morph(double shades) deal physical dmg it would help melee NBS potentially have 3 dps on a target and archer NBS a 'pet' that deals decent dmg and add pressure.

my 2 cents.

That's what I'm suggesting, to change Dark Shades (double morph) into the stamina morph because right now Shadow Image (Archer Morph) out preforms Dark shades in almost every way. It is always dealing damage because Shadow Image is ranged, whereas the Dark Shades morph has to RUN to their target before they can start dealing damage. That's fine when you're already on top of a target but then why give it such a far range if the shades have to chase after their target immediately after summoning them and waste what little time the shades have on their timer. That's also why I'm suggesting to change the Dark Shades morph so that they can teleport strike to their target and constantly be attacking instead of having them run a marathon to get maybe 1 or 2 hits in before they expire.

Derra

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

I have not seen sorcs pulling truely competetive dps in vMOL nor heared of ideal setup ideas involving more than one sorcerer tbh. But if you have other insight please do enlighten me.

The NB comment was only about stamblade (as the topic suggests - sry for any room for misinterpretation here).

I think that a lot of people have trouble with rotation for high sustained Sorcerer DPS, but a friend of mine is really good at it and makes it looks super easy, lol. On Bloodspawn without Overload he could pull 33k single target and 31k on the Tower DPS test.

One of the people capable of pulling the highest DPS on the NA PC server is a stamina Nightblade.

Just because both things require a bit more skill than others does not necessarily mean they are bad. I think your argument would really only make sense if you were refering to stamina sorcerers. They have nothing going for them at all (PvE wise), unfortunately.

I think Sorcerers need a good class spammable attack, every other class has one pretty much.

Problem with these is always - they´re over too fast. The only thing interesting is vMOL dps compared to other classes.
Also idk why sorc dps would be harder than other classes?

ShedsHisTail

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed a few posts that were derailing this discussion. To paraphrase Gold 5: Stay on topic!

Nerd.

dsalter

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

This post is PvP only, I've no idea how to play PvE.

Two things I haven't seen mentioned yet, and I feel should be considered:

• SA has one advantage over Flurry, it's a class skill. I.e. you can use it alongside whatever weapon you like, opening up a whole lot of possibilities.
• I've seen arguments about specific setups (typically stam DK vs stam NB), and while I don't mind comparing, I want to emphasize that ESO is an MMORPG and therefore shouldn't be balanced around 1v1 matchups.

Oh how I love the consistency of the forums.

Radiant Destruction OP? It's only OP in open world, not viable in a 1v1, therefore it's balanced.

Flurry is outperforming Surprise Attack? "We shouldn't be balancing based on 1v1 match ups"

Lol it's quite comical.

on that off topic note, the only thing wrong with radiant is the 50% "execute" range. way to high

Septimus_Magna

DDuke wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

If a stam nightblade gets sustained dps in pve, then give magicka DK's burts dps in pvp. :)

They do have that - only those builds aren't very viable compared to other ones out there.

Molten Armaments->Inferno Staff Heavy Attack+Meteor+Shattering Rocks (this morph for Off Balanced & +50% dmg on heavy attack).

Elegance set for +20% Heavy Attack damage next patch.


The main issue with that isn't burst, you can instagib people easily by landing that combo - the problem with that kind of build is survivability. I have had a dunmer ranged magicka DK I've wanted to play for a long time, but I cant quite figure out how to make her survive and deal that burst. Got some ideas for next patch though

Magicka DK could be pretty tanky with Igneous Shield, Healing Ward and Dampen Magic (plus Burning Embers healing) in the DB update.

Dampen Magic will have roughly the same shield size as Hardened Ward with 5pc light armor and it absorbs both magic and physical dmg.

Junkogen

This is because people constantly whine about surprise attack and how "OP" it is. This is what happens all the time. Abilities get ruined.

Pepper8Jack

DDuke wrote: »

In fact, if you want to compare Killer's Blade to other things...



They have the same skillcoefficient apparently, unless the 2H execute damage scales higher as ranks go up (I only have it at rank 1)

The difference is that 2H Execute starts dealing decent damage after 50%, where as Killer's Blade requires target to be below 25%. And in the end, 2H Execute deals 35% more damage.

2H Execute: 13 849 damage
Killer's Blade: 12 402 damage

11% difference in favor of Executioner, that you can start using after 50% rather than 25%.

How is this balanced in any imaginable way?

---

I mean, people can hate Nightblades & their stealth burst all they want. But when it comes to things other than ganking in PvP, there are some serious issues as you can see by the numbers.

Simple, cost.

Executioner costs twice as much as Killers blade.

Executioner = higher burst potential
Killer's Blade = higher sustained DPS potential

Options.

And I know you want to make nightblades more capable outside of ganking, but you can't choose to ignore the impacts a buff to SA would have on that playstyle. SA and Incap as they are on PTS will already be leading to many an instakill in PvP, so buffing SA will only exacerbate the issue.

If you want to make SA better in PvE DPS, it'll need a rework so as not to influence the already very capable PvE burst it produces.

SpazzmanNDQ

Dont think you should be making a thread complaining because a skill got buffed and is now causing you to decide if its better than SA. This comes off as a reason the game gets out of balance because players want to complain that their favorite skill isn't the strongest option. Who cares if rapid strikes is better than SA now for so long no one used the move cause the channel time was too slow.

If you want to continue using SA then use it if you want to use the stronger skill in Rapid strikes then use it but dont ask them to balance SA and Rapid strikes cause it wasn't balanced before now people who don't want to use SA have an option.

DDuke

SpazzmanNDQ wrote: »

Dont think you should be making a thread complaining because a skill got buffed and is now causing you to decide if its better than SA. This comes off as a reason the game gets out of balance because players want to complain that their favorite skill isn't the strongest option. Who cares if rapid strikes is better than SA now for so long no one used the move cause the channel time was too slow.

If you want to continue using SA then use it if you want to use the stronger skill in Rapid strikes then use it but dont ask them to balance SA and Rapid strikes cause it wasn't balanced before now people who don't want to use SA have an option.

Look, the problem here isn't simply that one skill available to everyone is stronger than the Nightblade specific skill.

The problem is that this Nightblade specific skill used to (long time ago) be the one thing that made NBs competitive DPS in PvE.

Nightblades don't have the strong DK DoTs that take DPS to a whole another level, we don't have the cleave AoE damage of stamina templars (or the +6% weapon dmg they get over us), we don't get the insanely strong passives stamina sorcerers are getting, nor the DPS boosting Hurricane ability.

We simply do not have tools that put us on the same level with other classes.

Now, you don't want to buff Surprise Attack because it's still useful in PvP, then fine. I posted a big list of QoL changes & suggestions that would help stamina nightblade DPS reach where it should be - without increasing the burst potential of Nightblades.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261852/official-feedback-thread-for-nightblades/p7

I'll just copy/paste it here:

Some suggestions for improving the situation of nightblades (in both PvE & PvP)
Veil of Blades

Make this a Physical (or Poison/Disease) Damage dealing morph, so stamina nightblades have another option outside Ice Comet/Shooting Star as their offensive ultimate.

This will not increase the burst damage of stamblades & will help their highly sub-par DPS in PvE. Note: I am aware that it is sometimes used in Trials to help survive some mechanics. Making this a Physical Damage dealing ultimate would also perhaps provide Bow using NBs a nice area denial, which is what bow builds sorely lack at the moment.

Optional: increase the radius too by a little.

This would not affect magicka nightblades too much, because they're already using Ice Comet/Shooting Star as well as damaging ultimate, and Veil of Blades rarely sees use in PvP (Soul Tether & Soul Harvest are the go-to ultimates there).

Bolstering Darkness could remain as the tanking ultimate.


Another option: give the Nightblade using the ultimate invisibility while within the Veil of Blades, similar to Batswarm. This would also make it more appealing thanks to the bonus damage you get while in stealth/invisible. In PvP, it could be countered by throwing AoE at the Veil, or shooting a Flare there. Also, you'd only have the invisibility within the circle.


Agony & Morphs

Make them not break from damage over time - that makes them nigh unusable in all content & has some serious anti-synergy with other Nightblade skills (Cripple, Soul Tether etc), as well as simply having a weapon enchant (status effect procs will break Agony instantly).

Shadow Cloak & Morphs

Please. Please fix this skill. It is still breaking from incoming projectiles/damage over time effects, as well as from your own DoTs.
If you need further details please pm me, I'll be happy to provide videos & do further testing to help you fix this.

Shadow Image

Make this skill unusable if you are out of range of the Shade (similar to how Cloak gets greyed out when you are hit by a Flare or similar effect). Nothing is more frustrating than using this skill & then absolutely nothing happening.

Grim Focus & Morphs

Make recasting this skill not reset the count of how many light/heavy attacks you've landed for Assassin's Will.

Optional: make it refresh the duration when you land an Assassin's Will.

Blur & Morphs

Make this skill competitive with Shuffle by making it give you Minor Evasion as well.

Killer's Blade

Boost the damage, it is currently not on par with 2H Executioner (or alternatively allow it to start executing at higher percentage).

Power Extraction

Make it give Major Brutality whether you hit a target or not. The stealth focused class of this MMO being the only one unable to buff their weapon damage while stealthed (without slotting a 2H weapon) is silly & makes no sense. It also pigeonholes NBs into one weapon type (2H).

genjutsu_kami

[snip]

night blades need damage to be toned down not addressed to be buffed. [snip]

i have played all classes except DKs I've been killed by every class and I've killed every class and let me tell you
nightblades burst damage is overacheiveing this is me speaking from my own v16 maxed gear night blade, and being killed by one.

when a sorc kills me its understandable, burst damage timing is fair and understandable but obviously shields are obnoxious thats a whole different discussion.

DKs kill me understandable, they're tanky hard to kill mitigate a lot of damage....overall fair

Templar kills you, again fair tanky great at healing good fair damage. (but radiant destruction needs toning down at least its range)

nightblade kills you ...... [snip] broken. damage output overachieving, the amount of CC's .....stupid, healing debuffs spamable .... overall buffs more than any another class.... damage out put overachieving.

its actually depressing speaking about how much night blades over achieve.... we don't even care anymore they can keep all the broken overachieving rubbish. just do us players one favour.... just tone the damage down, just tone it down please!

[edited for flaming]

DDuke

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

night blades need damage to be toned down not addressed to be buffed.

i have played all classes except DKs I've been killed by every class and I've killed every class and let me tell you
nightblades burst damage is overacheiveing this is me speaking from my own v16 maxed gear night blade, and being killed by one.

when a sorc kills me its understandable, burst damage timing is fair and understandable but obviously shields are obnoxious thats a whole different discussion.

DKs kill me understandable, they're tanky hard to kill mitigate a lot of damage....overall fair

Templar kills you, again fair tanky great at healing good fair damage. (but radiant destruction needs toning down at least its range)

nightblade kills you ...... broken. damage output overachieving, the amount of CC's .....stupid, healing debuffs spamable .... overall buffs more than any another class.... damage out put overachieving.

its actually depressing speaking about how much night blades over achieve.... we don't even care anymore they can keep all the broken overachieving rubbish. just do us players one favour.... just tone the damage down, just tone it down please!

Every class in this game can build for high burst damage, not only NBs.

https://youtu.be/8UIs4TfhSck

So by all means, go make your "nerf burst damage" post, I might even back it up [snip] - but don't make it a Nightblade specific thing.

[edit for quote and bait]

genjutsu_kami

DDuke wrote: »

Every class in this game can build for high burst damage, not only NBs.

https://youtu.be/8UIs4TfhSck

So by all means, go make your "nerf burst damage" post, I might even back it up - but don't make it a Nightblade specific thing.

[snip] To think that one minute night blades do not perform well or should i correctly say over achieve well against abilities such as flurry... [snip] i mean really do you think for one second anyone is going to fall for the "night blades don't perform well against flurry" when you have concealed weapon and surprise attack that can tool tip for 9k and over 12k cries and its a instant dps with a relative low cost, come on....just un-delude your self for one second and be honest with the rest of the community.... night blades currently have more buffs than any other class in the game excluding race buffs..... [snip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8trYroh2k

oh theres a link to evidence stamblades don't need help in any way ......(we can show videos to back up our arguments as well you know nothing special)

[edited for flaming]

DDuke

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

To think that one minute night blades do not perform well or should i correctly say over achieve well against abilities such as flurry... i mean really do you think for one second anyone is going to fall for the "night blades don't perform well against flurry" when you have concealed weapon and surprise attack that can tool tip for 9k and over 12k cries and its a instant dps with a relative low cost, come on....just un-delude your self for one second and be honest with the rest of the community.... night blades currently have more buffs than any other class in the game excluding race buffs.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8trYroh2k


oh theres a link to evidence stamblades don't need help in any way ......(we can show videos to back up our arguments as well you know nothing special)

A video of a stamblade 1vXing lesser skilled players.

Where have I seen this before? Oh, right - on videos of literally every other class and build. What exactly are you trying to prove? Find me a good stamina nightblade who beats a good stamina dk or magicka templar in 1v1, I'll wait.

You thought only stamblades can deal high burst damage - I proved you wrong with a video. Now you come up with nonsense because you can't admit you're wrong. Classic.

Also, your numbers are off. If you have a tooltip of only 9k on your Surprise Attack, you're doing something wrong.

Here's a proper tooltip, and this isn't even a gank build:




Meanwhile, here's a Wrecking Blow:



And here's a freaking Silver Leash with proper setup:




So can we get back to reality and stop with the mindless NB hate?

[minor edit for quote]

genjutsu_kami

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

this is absolutely hilarious ........ hahah night blades surprise attack and concealed weapon is weak ? hahaha when its an instant dps ? and tool tip can scale up to 9k damage with upto 12k crit hahahahah this is hilarious. i wish you could vote to delete posts. cause this post would be delete instantly.

night blades need damage to be toned down not addressed to be buffed. my god the delusion in some people who play stam night blade is unbearable.

i have played all classes except DKs I've been killed by every class and I've killed every class and let me tell you
nightblades burst damage is overacheiveing this is me speaking from my own v16 maxed gear night blade, and being killed by one.

when a sorc kills me its understandable, burst damage timing is fair and understandable but obviously shields are obnoxious thats a whole different discussion.

DKs kill me understandable, they're tanky hard to kill mitigate a lot of damage....overall fair

Templar kills you, again fair tanky great at healing good fair damage. (but radiant destruction needs toning down at least its range)

nightblade kills you ......hahahahahahhahaa broken. damage output overachieving, the amount of CC's .....stupid, healing debuffs spamable .... overall buffs more than any another class.... damage out put overachieving.

its actually depressing speaking about how much night blades over achieve.... we don't even care anymore they can keep all the broken overachieving rubbish. just do us players one favour.... just tone the damage down, just tone it down please!

Every class in this game can build for high burst damage, not only NBs.

https://youtu.be/8UIs4TfhSck

So by all means, go make your "nerf burst damage" post, I might even back it up if it's more intelligently written than that one - but don't make it a Nightblade specific thing.

without being insulting and inconsiderately making comments to point out how stupid your initial post was..... laughable.... your post was laughable to think that one minute night blades do not perform well or should i correctly say over achieve well against abilities such as flurry is so laughable it does not deserve a well thought out comment hahaha. i mean really do you think for one second anyone is going to fall for the "night blades don't perform well against flurry" when you have concealed weapon and surprise attack that can tool tip for 9k and over 12k cries and its a instant dps with a relative low cost, hahaha come on....just un-delude your self for one second and be honest with the rest of the community.... night blades currently have more buffs than any other class in the game excluding race buffs..... when you can admit this FACT maybe i will make an intelligent comment on a different post you make in the future but until then.......hahahahahahahhahaha shut up man night blades do not need any help whatsoever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8trYroh2k



mindless nightblade hate ? hahaha dude i have a nightblade and even i am not deluded to think there is nothing wrong with the damage output.

wrecking blow ... you have to actually time that for it to hit.... concealed weapon- spam with light and medium weaves till hit lol

who uses silver lash...

and who are you to say they are unskilled players in that video ..... god of eso? the most egotistic comment i have ever seen wow.

and notice how the night blade instant dps ability on the picture you have shown highlights as 'INSTANT" and the cost is the lowest out of the 3 abilities not to mention it is a class ability.

no one is hating on stam night blades but I'm not going to be deluded enough to realise that they are not over performing.

why do you desperately want night blades to get a buff?? like do you honestly hand on heart telling me that night blades are not the strongest and most efficient burst class in the game, key word 'EFFICIENT"


haha or maybe your salty I've turned your claim of night blades needing help inside out and exposed the false cry for buffs for the night blade class. i think maybe its that.......







oh theres a link to evidence stamblades don't need help in any way ......(we can show videos to back up our arguments as well you know nothing special)

A video of a stamblade 1vXing lesser skilled players.

Where have I seen this before? Oh, right - on videos of literally every other class and build. What exactly are you trying to prove? Find me a good stamina nightblade who beats a good stamina dk or magicka templar in 1v1, I'll wait.

You thought only stamblades can deal high burst damage - I proved you wrong with a video. Now you come up with nonsense because you can't admit you're wrong. Classic.

Also, your numbers are off. If you have a tooltip of only 9k on your Surprise Attack, you're doing something wrong.

Here's a proper tooltip, and this isn't even a gank build:




Meanwhile, here's a Wrecking Blow:



And here's a freaking Silver Leash with proper setup:




So can we get back to reality and stop with the mindless NB hate?

genjutsu_kami

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

this is absolutely hilarious ........ hahah night blades surprise attack and concealed weapon is weak ? hahaha when its an instant dps ? and tool tip can scale up to 9k damage with upto 12k crit hahahahah this is hilarious. i wish you could vote to delete posts. cause this post would be delete instantly.

night blades need damage to be toned down not addressed to be buffed. my god the delusion in some people who play stam night blade is unbearable.

i have played all classes except DKs I've been killed by every class and I've killed every class and let me tell you
nightblades burst damage is overacheiveing this is me speaking from my own v16 maxed gear night blade, and being killed by one.

when a sorc kills me its understandable, burst damage timing is fair and understandable but obviously shields are obnoxious thats a whole different discussion.

DKs kill me understandable, they're tanky hard to kill mitigate a lot of damage....overall fair

Templar kills you, again fair tanky great at healing good fair damage. (but radiant destruction needs toning down at least its range)

nightblade kills you ......hahahahahahhahaa broken. damage output overachieving, the amount of CC's .....stupid, healing debuffs spamable .... overall buffs more than any another class.... damage out put overachieving.

its actually depressing speaking about how much night blades over achieve.... we don't even care anymore they can keep all the broken overachieving rubbish. just do us players one favour.... just tone the damage down, just tone it down please!

Every class in this game can build for high burst damage, not only NBs.

https://youtu.be/8UIs4TfhSck

So by all means, go make your "nerf burst damage" post, I might even back it up if it's more intelligently written than that one - but don't make it a Nightblade specific thing.

without being insulting and inconsiderately making comments to point out how stupid your initial post was..... laughable.... your post was laughable to think that one minute night blades do not perform well or should i correctly say over achieve well against abilities such as flurry is so laughable it does not deserve a well thought out comment hahaha. i mean really do you think for one second anyone is going to fall for the "night blades don't perform well against flurry" when you have concealed weapon and surprise attack that can tool tip for 9k and over 12k cries and its a instant dps with a relative low cost, hahaha come on....just un-delude your self for one second and be honest with the rest of the community.... night blades currently have more buffs than any other class in the game excluding race buffs..... when you can admit this FACT maybe i will make an intelligent comment on a different post you make in the future but until then.......hahahahahahahhahaha shut up man night blades do not need any help whatsoever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8trYroh2k



mindless nightblade hate ? hahaha dude i have a nightblade and even i am not deluded to think there is nothing wrong with the damage output.

wrecking blow ... you have to actually time that for it to hit.... concealed weapon- spam with light and medium weaves till hit lol

who uses silver lash...

and who are you to say they are unskilled players in that video ..... god of eso? the most egotistic comment i have ever seen wow.

and notice how the night blade instant dps ability on the picture you have shown highlights as 'INSTANT" and the cost is the lowest out of the 3 abilities not to mention it is a class ability.

no one is hating on stam night blades but I'm not going to be deluded enough to realise that they are not over performing.

why do you desperately want night blades to get a buff?? like do you honestly hand on heart telling me that night blades are not the strongest and most efficient burst class in the game, key word 'EFFICIENT"


haha or maybe your salty I've turned your claim of night blades needing help inside out and exposed the false cry for buffs for the night blade class. i think maybe its that.......







oh theres a link to evidence stamblades don't need help in any way ......(we can show videos to back up our arguments as well you know nothing special)

A video of a stamblade 1vXing lesser skilled players.

Where have I seen this before? Oh, right - on videos of literally every other class and build. What exactly are you trying to prove? Find me a good stamina nightblade who beats a good stamina dk or magicka templar in 1v1, I'll wait.

You thought only stamblades can deal high burst damage - I proved you wrong with a video. Now you come up with nonsense because you can't admit you're wrong. Classic.

Also, your numbers are off. If you have a tooltip of only 9k on your Surprise Attack, you're doing something wrong.

Here's a proper tooltip, and this isn't even a gank build:




Meanwhile, here's a Wrecking Blow:



And here's a freaking Silver Leash with proper setup:




So can we get back to reality and stop with the mindless NB hate?

mindless nightblade hate ? hahaha dude i have a nightblade and even i am not deluded to think there is nothing wrong with the damage output.

wrecking blow ... you have to actually time that for it to hit.... concealed weapon- spam with light and medium weaves till hit lol

who uses silver lash...

and who are you to say they are unskilled players in that video ..... god of eso? the most egotistic comment i have ever seen wow.

and notice how the night blade instant dps ability on the picture you have shown highlights as 'INSTANT" and the cost is the lowest out of the 3 abilities not to mention it is a class ability.

no one is hating on stam night blades but I'm not going to be deluded enough to realise that they are not over performing.

why do you desperately want night blades to get a buff?? like do you honestly hand on heart telling me that night blades are not the strongest and most efficient burst class in the game, key word 'EFFICIENT"


haha or maybe your salty I've turned your claim of night blades needing help inside out and exposed the false cry for buffs for the night blade class. i think maybe its that.......

SpazzmanNDQ

I have never seen a wrecking blow hit for 23k so this is obviously either bugged or loaded with cp how can a WB hit as hard as an ultimate. I main a Night blade and SA has always been strong plus it's the fastests dps in the game and can be animation canceled flawlessly like someone said earlier.

The real argument should be why is your WB tool tip 23k and if that is true you should switch to 2H and not worry about SA anymore.

DDuke

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

this is absolutely hilarious ........ hahah night blades surprise attack and concealed weapon is weak ? hahaha when its an instant dps ? and tool tip can scale up to 9k damage with upto 12k crit hahahahah this is hilarious. i wish you could vote to delete posts. cause this post would be delete instantly.

night blades need damage to be toned down not addressed to be buffed. my god the delusion in some people who play stam night blade is unbearable.

i have played all classes except DKs I've been killed by every class and I've killed every class and let me tell you
nightblades burst damage is overacheiveing this is me speaking from my own v16 maxed gear night blade, and being killed by one.

when a sorc kills me its understandable, burst damage timing is fair and understandable but obviously shields are obnoxious thats a whole different discussion.

DKs kill me understandable, they're tanky hard to kill mitigate a lot of damage....overall fair

Templar kills you, again fair tanky great at healing good fair damage. (but radiant destruction needs toning down at least its range)

nightblade kills you ......hahahahahahhahaa broken. damage output overachieving, the amount of CC's .....stupid, healing debuffs spamable .... overall buffs more than any another class.... damage out put overachieving.

its actually depressing speaking about how much night blades over achieve.... we don't even care anymore they can keep all the broken overachieving rubbish. just do us players one favour.... just tone the damage down, just tone it down please!

Every class in this game can build for high burst damage, not only NBs.

https://youtu.be/8UIs4TfhSck

So by all means, go make your "nerf burst damage" post, I might even back it up if it's more intelligently written than that one - but don't make it a Nightblade specific thing.

without being insulting and inconsiderately making comments to point out how stupid your initial post was..... laughable.... your post was laughable to think that one minute night blades do not perform well or should i correctly say over achieve well against abilities such as flurry is so laughable it does not deserve a well thought out comment hahaha. i mean really do you think for one second anyone is going to fall for the "night blades don't perform well against flurry" when you have concealed weapon and surprise attack that can tool tip for 9k and over 12k cries and its a instant dps with a relative low cost, hahaha come on....just un-delude your self for one second and be honest with the rest of the community.... night blades currently have more buffs than any other class in the game excluding race buffs..... when you can admit this FACT maybe i will make an intelligent comment on a different post you make in the future but until then.......hahahahahahahhahaha shut up man night blades do not need any help whatsoever

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk8trYroh2k



mindless nightblade hate ? hahaha dude i have a nightblade and even i am not deluded to think there is nothing wrong with the damage output.

wrecking blow ... you have to actually time that for it to hit.... concealed weapon- spam with light and medium weaves till hit lol

who uses silver lash...

and who are you to say they are unskilled players in that video ..... god of eso? the most egotistic comment i have ever seen wow.

and notice how the night blade instant dps ability on the picture you have shown highlights as 'INSTANT" and the cost is the lowest out of the 3 abilities not to mention it is a class ability.

no one is hating on stam night blades but I'm not going to be deluded enough to realise that they are not over performing.

why do you desperately want night blades to get a buff?? like do you honestly hand on heart telling me that night blades are not the strongest and most efficient burst class in the game, key word 'EFFICIENT"


haha or maybe your salty I've turned your claim of night blades needing help inside out and exposed the false cry for buffs for the night blade class. i think maybe its that.......







oh theres a link to evidence stamblades don't need help in any way ......(we can show videos to back up our arguments as well you know nothing special)

A video of a stamblade 1vXing lesser skilled players.

Where have I seen this before? Oh, right - on videos of literally every other class and build. What exactly are you trying to prove? Find me a good stamina nightblade who beats a good stamina dk or magicka templar in 1v1, I'll wait.

You thought only stamblades can deal high burst damage - I proved you wrong with a video. Now you come up with nonsense because you can't admit you're wrong. Classic.

Also, your numbers are off. If you have a tooltip of only 9k on your Surprise Attack, you're doing something wrong.

Here's a proper tooltip, and this isn't even a gank build:




Meanwhile, here's a Wrecking Blow:



And here's a freaking Silver Leash with proper setup:




So can we get back to reality and stop with the mindless NB hate?

mindless nightblade hate ? hahaha dude i have a nightblade and even i am not deluded to think there is nothing wrong with the damage output.

wrecking blow ... you have to actually time that for it to hit.... concealed weapon- spam with light and medium weaves till hit lol

who uses silver lash...

and who are you to say they are unskilled players in that video ..... god of eso? the most egotistic comment i have ever seen wow.

and notice how the night blade instant dps ability on the picture you have shown highlights as 'INSTANT" and the cost is the lowest out of the 3 abilities not to mention it is a class ability.

no one is hating on stam night blades but I'm not going to be deluded enough to realise that they are not over performing.

why do you desperately want night blades to get a buff?? like do you honestly hand on heart telling me that night blades are not the strongest and most efficient burst class in the game, key word 'EFFICIENT"


haha or maybe your salty I've turned your claim of night blades needing help inside out and exposed the false cry for buffs for the night blade class. i think maybe its that.......

Now you are just getting desperate. Go home, grab a drink. Relax. Sometimes the reality is different than how we conceive it.

I meant no disrespect towards the players in Sypher's video, but I think it is quite common knowledge that 1vX montages (including my own ones) aren't about fighting multiple skilled players, there's dueling videos for that.

If you think the enemies in that video played their classes optimally then well, idk what to tell you...

Also, if you think Wrecking Blow has to be "timed", then I must wonder what game you have been playing for the past half a year or so. The skill requires spamming, not timing. When it connects, you simply animation cancel an instant DBOS and there's your instagib burst damage - no Nightblade required. You're welcome.


Please stop making comments about ability costs as well - they don't matter when everyone has infinite resources anyway.


If you played a NB in PvE, or tried something other than ganking with one - you'd know the problems they face. NB is the 2nd lowest (stam sorc being the lowest) DPS in PvE and in PvP all you can do is gank people & kill easier opponents. If you face a skilled stam DK or magicka templar - you lose, end of story.

But much to your delight, I'm not saying stamina Nightblades need more burst damage. What they need is more sustained damage and fixes to their core defensive skills so they can survive as well.

DDuke

SpazzmanNDQ wrote: »

I have never seen a wrecking blow hit for 23k so this is obviously either bugged or loaded with cp how can a WB hit as hard as an ultimate. I main a Night blade and SA has always been strong plus it's the fastests dps in the game and can be animation canceled flawlessly like someone said earlier.

The real argument should be why is your WB tool tip 23k and if that is true you should switch to 2H and not worry about SA anymore.

That's what I've been trying to tell for a while now.

The problem is universal (not NB specific) and it's all about gank builds & the burst damage they deal with these tooltips.


You can get that tooltip with: 5x Alchemist, 1x Kena, 3x Agi, vMSA 2H & 3x Leki - it's what I could get my hands on (there are better setups for ganking) + Major Empower from Magelight.


It's all about how you build your character - not about what class you are.

Attackopsn

Okay, I'm going to do my best to ignore the really irrelevant and clearly toxic conversation above when I say this. The OP is talking about PvE. Stamina Nightblade's asset is Surprise Attack for sustained damage in PvE. Surprise Attack is being heavily outperformed by a non class ability in PvE. Buffs like minor berserk and major fracture are irrelevant for damage dealers in a setting where support roles are applying these buffs to everything and anyone anyways. Again, the whole complaint here rises from stamina nightblade dps being significantly lower than other classes in sustained dps situations inside of group content making them undesirable for things like VMoL. They do not have class DoTs or passives that compliment this group setting as well as other classes since their buffs are not unique or stacking in these situations. The OP is asking for a PvE group content buff, and shouldn't even need to provide the numbers he has in previous posts because it's more than obvious when you see parses between classes in this area of content that they clearly do not synergize as well here. The area where this class is underperforming is group PvE, so if you were to provide a group PvE buff, make it a buff that does not effect other areas of the game. Other abilities have already seen this treatment, and it should be no issue to do this for either Surprise Attack or another ability in a way that causes beneficial changes only inside of PvE. PvP should never have been apart of this discussion and should not be affected by whatever change occurs.

mr_wazzabi

Xsorus wrote: »

PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons

PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.

SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)

You can weave fully charged heavy attacks with flurry though, can't you?

It's similar to how you do it with wrecking blow.

Xsorus

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons

PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.

SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)

You can weave fully charged heavy attacks with flurry though, can't you?

It's similar to how you do it with wrecking blow.

Yeap, Its not as viable as Surprise Attack/Light Attack/Bash but you can weave it

Attackopsn

I'd imagine with the duration change only light attacks will work now, could be wrong

XaXa

I was testing on the PTS and managed to get heavy attacks to weave.

Attackopsn

XaXa wrote: »

I was testing on the PTS and managed to get heavy attacks to weave.

Thanks for the clarification

kadar

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Nightblades do not need a DPS buff signed a nightblade main


Plus flurry unlike WB can leave you open because someone can just bash your face in to interrupt it and counter.

No, Flurry cannot be interrupted as a matter of fact. It functions similar to Sweeps & Jabs in that regard.

Ashamray wrote: »

Maybe just use Flurry in pve?)
SA is already so cool in pvp.

Or maybe I should just reroll a DK? I don't get powerful DoTs with my class or anything that would make me deal similar DPS. The DKs even benefit more from using Rapid Strikes, since they can use them to buff up their DoTs.

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

Yes, sadly those burst combos don't matter when your opponent outheals them in 0,1 second with Major Mending, Rally+Vigor .
I'd like my class to be capable of more than instagib ganking. in both PvE & PvP.

Are you asking for a surprise attack buff?

Yes.

Or a strong class DoT or anything to make NBs competitive & playable outside ganking in PvP.


Killer's Blade needs a buff too for it to compare positively with Rapid Strikes. An execute that only works below 25% is currently dealing less damage than a spammable 100%->0% DPS skill that procs vMSA enchant & axe bleeds all the time.

I'm only 1 page in, and I'm sure others have pointed this out: I will be God in Cryodiil if they buff surprise attack. Talk about certain skills making other skills obsolete. Why would I wrecking blow when my surprise attack hits harder?

genjutsu_kami

http://i.imgur.com/NvOxZk9.png

night blades need what .......? a sustainable dps ability ......... lol please indulge me on how this is a relevant argument when you see this table in front of you and classes such as stam sorcs who don't even have an instant dps ability are still been shoved under the bus, well not lately stam sorc is being addressed which is great but honestly look at this table and ask yourself.... or go to a mirror first and revaluate your arguments that stam night blades need something to be more competitive.

(knowing big words and being competent at copy and paste doesn't make your argument valid anyone can do it lol)

no hate just putting a light on obvious facts that get overlooked by false claims.

kadar

And what makes it so awesome?

The only thing that used to make it awesome on Live oh so long ago is broken and doesn't work (hint: cloak).

Otherwise, you're better off using Rapid Strikes 100% of time.

@DDuke
I think SA will remain superior in Cyrodiil (unless you're got Mael weaps prolly), simply because Rapid Strikes is a channel that must be aimed in order to hit for the full duration. I haven't been hit with the full duration of Jabs in ages. Same thing for Rapid Strikes.

Have you taken into account the DPS added with light attack weave when using SA? It's a lot harder to weave with Flurry.

EDIT: I made it through the whole thread. Ok maybe I skimmed some parts. Super interesting and rather informative. Especially concerning the bugged tooltip on flurry. I never thought it made sense to have a channel that was less than the GCD, anyway. So after testing, it's about 0.9 seconds-- the same as the GCD? If so, that means that you could possibly weave it similar to SA?

EDIT 2: Does Flurry hit through dodge roll?

mr_wazzabi

Xsorus wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

PVE wise, Flurry is going to be superior for dot based builds simply cause Maelstrom Weapons

PvP Wise between Flurry and SA specifically, SA is going to beat it out 100% of the time.

SA has way to many benefits, and one of the most import ones is Weaving, you can weave in Light Attack/Bash with SA while you can't do that with Flurry (you can weave it in at the end of the Channel)

You can weave fully charged heavy attacks with flurry though, can't you?

It's similar to how you do it with wrecking blow.

Yeap, Its not as viable as Surprise Attack/Light Attack/Bash but you can weave it

The bash wastes stamina though. Isn't that more of a 1h shield combo as you have the passive? Doing the bash combo with dw or 2h just seems too hungry for stamina.