Flurry vs Surprise Attack - Major Imbalance in Damage

DDuke · May 2016

Ahzek wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.

I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.

*** these forums, always play fotm

Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.

Do you feel the mob of Stamina Sorcs glaring at you?

They're a myth and currently don't exist

But after next patch, even they will deal more damage than stamina NBs in PvE

I feel like I very much exist already, thank you very much.

Jo, you are an exception

But tbh I was talking about PvE there, in PvP there are some stamina sorcs (you & maybe 2 others

)

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Killing people in Imperial City - right. But where are the duels & fights against good stam DKs, magicka sorcs, magicka templars?

As I said, I don't really care about how much 1vX potential a class has if it has to run from 1v1s against other good players.

I can do all that on my templar and fight anyone in 1v1. A NB cannot.

ZOS_DaryaK · May 2016

We've again removed a few posts that were not relevant to this discussion. Keep it civil, folks.

Emma_Overload · May 2016

I hope the point of this thread isn't to nerf Flurry, just when they finally fixed it so Sorcs can use it.

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Killing people in Imperial City - right. But where are the duels & fights against good stam DKs, magicka sorcs, magicka templars?

As I said, I don't really care about how much 1vX potential a class has if it has to run from 1v1s against other good players.

I can do all that on my templar and fight anyone in 1v1.

i said pick any video you want, the cyrodil stuff is even better.
I tell you what ur templar can't and thats escape. Nightblades can.
What do you really want man? I don't get it. Nobody can kill a tanky healtemplar in a 1v1 but if someone has good chances, it's a Nightblade and especially in the coming patch he might maybe be the only one. So that point is gone.

Yea well pve wise u might not compete with a stam dk but almost nobody can. If u want an ability as strong and dps like as rapid strikes, feel free to use it but otherwise a NB surely lacks nothing since he is superior in most of the things.

Silver_Strider · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Liked the music lol.

Docmandu · May 2016

Seems a lot of the side effects are being "forgotten" when talking about Surprise Attack, ie. Major Fracture, stun from stealth and set off balance, effects of the passives for Shadow skills (4 seconds increased resists and 3% extra health)

Can't just compare 1 component of a skill, in this case the raw DPS number.

As for channeled abilities.. they can be blocked / evaded and you can get stunned, meaning for Flurry, you'll miss that 300% boost... (valid for PvP and PvE).

ManDraKE · May 2016

Surprise attack is a really good skil, don't need any buff at all. About flurry making more DPS, well, nerf flurry and done.

susmitds · May 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Seems a lot of the side effects are being "forgotten" when talking about Surprise Attack, ie. Major Fracture, stun from stealth and set off balance, effects of the passives for Shadow skills (4 seconds increased resists and 3% extra health)

Can't just compare 1 component of a skill, in this case the raw DPS number.

As for channeled abilities.. they can be blocked / evaded and you can get stunned, meaning for Flurry, you'll miss that 300% boost... (valid for PvP and PvE).

Which significant enemy in PvE dodges or blocks?

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2016

Docmandu wrote: »

Seems a lot of the side effects are being "forgotten" when talking about Surprise Attack, ie. Major Fracture, stun from stealth and set off balance, effects of the passives for Shadow skills (4 seconds increased resists and 3% extra health)

Can't just compare 1 component of a skill, in this case the raw DPS number.

As for channeled abilities.. they can be blocked / evaded and you can get stunned, meaning for Flurry, you'll miss that 300% boost... (valid for PvP and PvE).

Yeah, if you don't only look at raw dps but also at utillity / support, stamblades are so great. They can't slot chains, they don't heal other people with their dps rotation, they can't heal themselves without sacrificing damage, they don't have a single unique buff / debuff, they can't do decent dps from range. Did I miss something?

I can understand that people fear surprise attacks getting buffed in pvp, but what about other nb skills that won't effect pvp much? If you change relentless focus so it gets reactivated when you use the spectral bow, it would be a nice dps increase. Additionally you could change the dark shades morph to be usefull for stamina and add a reason to use it together with SA in pve. Maybe add this to SA: Increases the damage the target takes from pets by x% for xx sec, stacks up to xx times.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Killing people in Imperial City - right. But where are the duels & fights against good stam DKs, magicka sorcs, magicka templars?

As I said, I don't really care about how much 1vX potential a class has if it has to run from 1v1s against other good players.

I can do all that on my templar and fight anyone in 1v1.

i said pick any video you want, the cyrodil stuff is even better.
I tell you what ur templar can't and thats escape. Nightblades can.
What do you really want man? I don't get it. Nobody can kill a tanky healtemplar in a 1v1 but if someone has good chances, it's a Nightblade and especially in the coming patch he might maybe be the only one. So that point is gone.

Yea well pve wise u might not compete with a stam dk but almost nobody can. If u want an ability as strong and dps like as rapid strikes, feel free to use it but otherwise a NB surely lacks nothing since he is superior in most of the things.

And where you gonna escape to when they add arenas & BGs?!

You can't balance a class to only be good in 1vX killing less skilled players & instagib ganking and then suck at everything else, especially PvE.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with NB being the "only one able to burst down a tankier player"., most classes in the game deal more burst damage out of stealth than Nightblades and this has always been the case.

Nor am I talking about heal templars alone, I'm talking about all classes with access to Major Mending and/or lots of heals/shields (next patch, that means every class except NB).

You do duels (sometimes), you should know this by now.

Also, saying NBs are superior in most things is just hilarious. List one thing they are superior at that isn't ganking.

Ra'Shtar · May 2016

ManDraKE wrote: »

Surprise attack is a really good skil, don't need any buff at all. About flurry making more DPS, well, nerf flurry and done.

That is not how balance works....

DDuke · May 2016

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Surprise attack is a really good skil, don't need any buff at all. About flurry making more DPS, well, nerf flurry and done.

That is not how balance works....

Yes, agreed.

Flurry is fine as it is, since it's balanced with the magicka DPS.

What isn't balanced with magicka DPS or Flurry DPS is Surprise Attack.

I don't know why people don't understand this. I've posted maths, videos - what else can I do?

ManDraKE · May 2016

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Surprise attack is a really good skil, don't need any buff at all. About flurry making more DPS, well, nerf flurry and done.

That is not how balance works....

Looking at raw dps numbers is not how you do balance. Surprise attack is a high burst instant cast dps that grants major fracture and can be weaved and canceled, buffing SA will be a major problem for PvP, is already really strong. You dont balance the game just by looking the dps mini-metter

Mumyo · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Killing people in Imperial City - right. But where are the duels & fights against good stam DKs, magicka sorcs, magicka templars?

As I said, I don't really care about how much 1vX potential a class has if it has to run from 1v1s against other good players.

I can do all that on my templar and fight anyone in 1v1.

i said pick any video you want, the cyrodil stuff is even better.
I tell you what ur templar can't and thats escape. Nightblades can.
What do you really want man? I don't get it. Nobody can kill a tanky healtemplar in a 1v1 but if someone has good chances, it's a Nightblade and especially in the coming patch he might maybe be the only one. So that point is gone.

Yea well pve wise u might not compete with a stam dk but almost nobody can. If u want an ability as strong and dps like as rapid strikes, feel free to use it but otherwise a NB surely lacks nothing since he is superior in most of the things.

And where you gonna escape to when they add arenas & BGs?!

You can't balance a class to only be good in 1vX killing less skilled players & instagib ganking and then suck at everything else, especially PvE.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with NB being the "only one able to burst down a tankier player"., most classes in the game deal more burst damage out of stealth than Nightblades and this has always been the case.

Nor am I talking about heal templars alone, I'm talking about all classes with access to Major Mending and/or lots of heals/shields (next patch, that means every class except NB).

You do duels (sometimes), you should know this by now.

Also, saying NBs are superior in most things is just hilarious. List one thing they are superior at that isn't ganking.

Sustain(ressource management) and CC(fear strongest cc in game) as escaping but i mean the shades here and not cloak since that stuff is really really broken.

BohnT · May 2016

I'm sorry but SA is still better than rapid strikes for pvp and in pve it was never a competitor to RS. You are complaining about what is arguably the best stam skill in the game. It has no cast time reduces the enemies armour and increases yours and it increases your health by 3%. That is everything you could ask for if you want a really good ability. RS on the other side has the superior damage but you have to use dw and you have the cast time of .6 sec.
And most of the damage is dealt with the last hit most good players will CC you or dodge it.
I play a lot with my stamnb and I don't think SA needs a buff. There are other skills which could be changed to improve our PvE damage

BohnT · May 2016

Double post sorry

Saturn · May 2016

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

Derra · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Ra'Shtar wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Surprise attack is a really good skil, don't need any buff at all. About flurry making more DPS, well, nerf flurry and done.

That is not how balance works....

Yes, agreed.

Flurry is fine as it is, since it's balanced with the magicka DPS.

What isn't balanced with magicka DPS or Flurry DPS is Surprise Attack.

I don't know why people don't understand this. I've posted maths, videos - what else can I do?

Suprise attack simply provides to many buffs and debuffs for a one ability use to also be on par dps wise with the best singletarget stam ability in the game.
It does not need a buff.

Stamblade needs a dot to increase their singletarget dps in pve without increasing burst.

@Mumyo I sadly have to agree with Deci on the vid of liberate. It´s scrubfarming that´s being shown. NB excells at that. There is nothing to be seen and i know lib is pretty good at playing his NB.
In arenas mobility will most likely be largely irrelevant and NB and sorc as a result will be in for a harsh reality check because they lack the standing power of DK and Templar.

Erock25 · May 2016

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

I guess that depends on your definition of sustained pve dps because sorc pve dps plummets outside of overload.

DDuke · May 2016

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

caperon wrote: »

Adapt and move on...

You are looking from the wrong perspective...

GO *** YOURSELF (inbefore 3 deleted post and forum ban).

I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by yelling at me.

I'm not going to reroll stamina DK if that is what you mean by adapting.

That's a way to waste a forum account btw, I'd edit the post if I were you.

Rerolling if it gets not super ez mode is not an answer.
Try to play NB on another level, Liberate is doing insanely fine and he does way better in Cyrodil then i do.
I also know what it feels like not being the easiest class (trust me, as stamplar i went through hell but i made it as i enjoyed it).
NB is absolutely viable and is a crazy killer class with insane burst capabilities and nobody can deny that.
U passively get the major armor and breach buff by just using ur main dmg ability which is insane... u also have the highest burst potential in pvp and its going to be way stronger. Next to that ur sustain is just incredible... free 15% regen is the best passive when it comes to ressourcemanagement and ur costs aren't high anyway... its also the lowest.

Not having major mending is just fair because u have everything else there is! And don't forget about shades, it's maybe the best ability for survival a class can have.

Now you are upset because there is a dps ability that you can use aswell.

Mumyo... you are looking at this from PvP perspective only. Furthermore, ganking perspective only.

NB has never been "ez mode" (well, except maybe when the 3s cast time Snipes literally one shot people).

Have you ever dueled as a Nightblade? It was doable, it was enjoyable - back when cloak worked. You weren't the strongest class (magicka sorcs were), but you'd be able to beat anyone if you were good enough.

Nowadays, you stand a snowball's chance in hell of beating any good player from other classes (stam DK, magicka sorc, magicka templar especially). Go fight Dusk, Fahad, LMage etc as a stamina NB & let me know how it went...

Meanwhile, I can log my magicka templar - I can 1vX, I can duel & fight anyone without thinking "I have no chance". I don't remember the last time I lost to a nightblade, they are by far the easiest class to beat.

Be real please. I don't deny that nightblades are really strong for ganking, perhaps even too strong. But when it comes to other aspects of the game... it's not pretty.

There you go.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TATzuO8fQ

Pick whatever video of him you want, he does this all day long when i'm dead allready.
Every video of his is showcasing him outsustaing outplaying and nightblading the crap out of his enemies.
So actually exactly the thing you don't believe to exist.

Killing people in Imperial City - right. But where are the duels & fights against good stam DKs, magicka sorcs, magicka templars?

As I said, I don't really care about how much 1vX potential a class has if it has to run from 1v1s against other good players.

I can do all that on my templar and fight anyone in 1v1.

i said pick any video you want, the cyrodil stuff is even better.
I tell you what ur templar can't and thats escape. Nightblades can.
What do you really want man? I don't get it. Nobody can kill a tanky healtemplar in a 1v1 but if someone has good chances, it's a Nightblade and especially in the coming patch he might maybe be the only one. So that point is gone.

Yea well pve wise u might not compete with a stam dk but almost nobody can. If u want an ability as strong and dps like as rapid strikes, feel free to use it but otherwise a NB surely lacks nothing since he is superior in most of the things.

And where you gonna escape to when they add arenas & BGs?!

You can't balance a class to only be good in 1vX killing less skilled players & instagib ganking and then suck at everything else, especially PvE.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about with NB being the "only one able to burst down a tankier player"., most classes in the game deal more burst damage out of stealth than Nightblades and this has always been the case.

Nor am I talking about heal templars alone, I'm talking about all classes with access to Major Mending and/or lots of heals/shields (next patch, that means every class except NB).

You do duels (sometimes), you should know this by now.

Also, saying NBs are superior in most things is just hilarious. List one thing they are superior at that isn't ganking.

Sustain(ressource management) and CC(fear strongest cc in game) as escaping but i mean the shades here and not cloak since that stuff is really really broken.

Sorry to break it to you, but resource management is pretty much meaningless. You can stack 5k weapon dmg & 40k stamina as Redguard and never run out of stamina. You can even play stamblade with 1,5k stamina regen & never run out.
Sustain doesn't matter at all in this game.

As for CC, I don't agree with Fear being the strongest. It's extremely short range & easily dodged, nor does it synergize well with melee builds as people often just run out of your SA range while feared. Yet, it's the only option available for NBs... I'd gladly trade it for Fossilize. On my ranged magicka NB, I use Invigorating Drain instead - which is light years better.

On escaping I don't disagree - that kind of falls into the ganking category I mentioned. Stamina DKs for example can get much more burst damage, but they can't escape. This is the only reason they're worse in ganking than stam NBs.

NB simply doesn't have any survivability to stay in fights, not with cloak broken & other classes having Major Mending & outhealing/shielding everything while outdpsing all your heals with their powerful class DoTs.

This is also a big cause to why most nightblades have to play the toxic "instagib & escape" routine in PvP which most people hate.

Derra · May 2016

Saturn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

NB has the same problem the sorc class has.

NB is about stealthed burst combos.
Sorc is about burst setup combos.

Both kinda good in pvp with high dmg compared to enemy HP. Both completely worthless in sustained DPS pve encounters. The class design doesn´t make sense pve wise for both of them.

There are a lot of very skilled PvE sorcerers and nightblades that will disagree with you on that, lol.

I have not seen sorcs pulling truely competetive dps in vMOL nor heared of ideal setup ideas involving more than one sorcerer tbh. But if you have other insight please do enlighten me.

The NB comment was only about stamblade (as the topic suggests - sry for any room for misinterpretation here).

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

And then toss in two vMA daggers... mmm.

While the Flurry boost is nice (too nice?), it does mean that stamblades--at least in PvE--is just like any other stam class when it comes to their choice of main DPS spammable.

vMA Dagger and a Master Dagger is a killer Combo.

SanTii.92 · May 2016

The problem is stam dk dps out of control, I am counting on some of them being dunmers tho haha but since it won't be too hard to just reroll a new one now, they need to go down, no doubt.
I am curious and a bit worried about rapid strike > killer's blade, I've never heard about that before. How are you actually calculating this, are you weaving attacks in ther?

DDuke · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

The problem is stam dk dps out of control, I am counting on some of them being dunmers tho haha but since it won't be too hard to just reroll a new one now, they need to go down, no doubt.
I am curious and a bit worried about rapid strike > killer's blade, I've never heard about that before. How are you actually calculating this, are you weaving attacks in ther?

Just by tooltips. I have the math on the op.

However, it might be that the tooltips are bugged (or inaccurate) - I analyzed a clip I recorded & it seems the channel duration is still closer to 1s (not 0.6s as stated by tooltip).

I came to this conclusion by going frame to frame from beginning of an attack animation to the end of it (when animation ends & floating dmg number pops up) - so it's not necessarily accurate though.

Maybe someone can figure out a better way to find out the duration of the channel?

Attackopsn · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

Why do I keep reading in these forums?
Great thing you report dps values based on the global ability cooldown. especially, since you very well know about la->skill->bash weaves etc.
Apart from that, landing all flurry hits on a moving target isn't that easy, for special fun try it vs a Dk spammign talons and using a major expedition pot / poison / skill.

I'm really annoying, because I'm sure your numbers are not produced by a lack of knowledge but by a clear nerf/buff agenda you want to push.

*** these forums, always play fotm

Look, it's common knowledge that stamina NB is the weakest class in PvE.

You deal about 50% of the damage stamina DKs & magicka builds deal, because there is nothing in the class skills that helps with it.

In PvP, I couldn't care less if they nerfed stamina NB burst dmg - as long as they fixed cloak or gave us something else to survive with. Vigor does not outheal DK DoTs where as their Major Mending+Vigor heals everything you do, so you're kind of dead when those DoTs get applied to you. If I could negate them & survive with cloak - fine - except it doesn't work.

I have no hidden agenda here. I know the strengths & weaknesses of NB and I couldn't care less if the strengths got toned down a bit (ganking), where the weaknesses got fixed/buffed.

After all, what does any of the 1vX capacity the class has matter, if you have to run from 1v1s you can't win.

That's bad balance - in both ways.

The biggest complaints here are pvp oriented, I don't see why it would be so hard to make adjustments that made this class ability more viable in pve. Ambush has a cc in pve, in pvp it doesn't, it would be that simple to make a change for many abilities in pve and pvp that call for adjustments. The op isn't pushing some agenda, he's showing you an unbuffed surprise attack compared to an unbuffed flurry in terms of pve dps. This difference is even more dramatic when using the maelstrom daggers/axes. There is a clear problem here, a method of separation that the developers have done before, and an easy solution. The reality is whenever a problem that is genuine is posted, almost everyone on these forums comes here, ironically since the OP was accused of this, to push their own agenda in terms of game balance. If we as a community actually want balanced changes, we can't have these kinds of biases when something like this is posted because it dilutes the feedback for the devs. The solution here is simple, buff it without carrying those buffs to pvp, this should have already been the way many changes were implemented for all class and non class abilities.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

Hello,

This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.

Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).

Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:

8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.

0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=

14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.

To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).

So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.

My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?

Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.

What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2016

DDuke wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

The problem is stam dk dps out of control, I am counting on some of them being dunmers tho haha but since it won't be too hard to just reroll a new one now, they need to go down, no doubt.
I am curious and a bit worried about rapid strike > killer's blade, I've never heard about that before. How are you actually calculating this, are you weaving attacks in ther?

Just by tooltips. I have the math on the op.

However, it might be that the tooltips are bugged (or inaccurate) - I analyzed a clip I recorded & it seems the channel duration is still closer to 1s (not 0.6s as stated by tooltip).

I came to this conclusion by going frame to frame from beginning of an attack animation to the end of it (when animation ends & floating dmg number pops up) - so it's not necessarily accurate though.

Maybe someone can figure out a better way to find out the duration of the channel?

Channel seems to be 0.9 sec. I did multiple tests with ~1min fight duration each and couldn't get below 0.91 sec per cast.

DDuke · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Hello,

This is currently a major problem in Live for stamina nightblades in PvE (one of the weakest classes there), and if things don't change it'll be a problem in PvP as well with the new 0.6s cast time or Rapid Strikes (which by itself is a good change). I just don't see a reason to slot Surprise Attack anymore. Anywhere.

Currently, Surprise Attack is extremely weak in terms of DPS when you compare it to Rapid Strikes (or even the new healing morph, Bloodthirst).

Here are some screenshots & math illustrating the problem:

8454 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since you have a 1 second global cooldown after using instant cast abilities.

0.6s cast time
1086+(1086+3%)+(1118.58+3%)+(1152.13+3%)+(1186.7+303%)=

14 921.28 DPS (not counting mitigation/crits) - since channeled abilities do not proc the global cooldown (please keep it that way).
Even if you were to cast one Rapid Strikes & one Surprise Attack & leave it at that, the Rapid Strikes would deal an average of 9325.8 dmg, while the Surprise Attack dealt the 8454 dmg - a difference of 9.8%.

To make things even worse, these tests were conducted with only 10 points in Thaumaturge. Normally I'd have 33 there, meaning the difference would be another 6.5% (now a total of 16.3%).

So yeah, hopefully we can all see the problem here.

My question is: are there any buffs to Nightblade DPS in the pipeline, @Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom ?

Pretty sure Surprise attack isn't intended as a sustained DPS skill.
It's supposed to be... well, a surprise attack. A first hit, from stealth, frontload damage and stun your foe attack.
If you're using it for sustained dps in PvE you're using it wrong.

What Surprise attack -does- do, though, is damage the armor of your opponent, allowing your future hits with other skills to do higher damage. You use surprise attack for the debuff and big first hit, then use other skills until the debuff needs to be reapplied.

Going down the memory lane, back to the days of AA/Hel Ra, Sanctum Ophidia... Surprise Attack was actually best DPS skill for Nightblades for sustained damage. Back then, there were very few stamina morphs, no Maelstrom daggers etc... and stamina nightblade was the top PvE DPS.

Fast forward to present - stamina nightblade is the worst PvE DPS (stam sorcs don't exist in PvE atm) due to lack of class DoTs and anything that increases dmg & thaumaturge/vMSA axe+dagger boosted DPS outperforming Surprise Attack. With the current changes, even stam sorcs will be better (their passive changes are a huge boost to their DPS, same as Hurricane).

Point is, the game used to be balanced when Nightblades had access to strongest single target spammable, that made up for the lack of... well, everything else.
The game isn't balanced anymore and that needs to be fixed - whether it means buffing Surprise Attack back to its former glory, or doing something different.