FFS ZOS... AGAIN PTS PATCH NOTES!

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

Veteran Dungeons

Veteran Imperial City Prison
Decreased the amount of damage that monsters do throughout this dungeon.
Reduced the health of the Flesh Sculptor’s Flesh Atronachs.
The Flesh Sculptor’s sprinting inmates now move slower.
The Flesh Sculptor now summons fewer inmates.
Veteran White-Gold Tower
Decreased the amount of damage that monsters do throughout this dungeon.

i wont add anything... please discuss...:

Malmai · October 2015

Very nice

Arkadius · October 2015

Like it.

Ezareth · October 2015

I've run ICP with some of the best players in the game and I'll say the Flesh Sculptor fight is just too hard and too RNG to the point I wont even run ICP because it just isn't fun, even when it is the undaunted daily. There is absolutely zero loot acquired in ICP that you can't aready get in a WGT which I though was balanced pretty well (The bug fixes on the pinion was needed though).

OmniDevil · October 2015

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is with players getting upset over changes like this. Seriously, I don't understand and would like to. Is it the idea of being in a 1%er category that can beat something difficult? Is everything too easy that you want something to be overly difficult?

I like challenge and do my best to min/max my builds with what I have available to ensure I'm dumping out as much DPS as possible, however. There are plenty of players that are still struggling with these two dungeons alone, while others have a difficult time getting past the first boss in Imperial Prison (nothing concrete past what I've heard around in-game and other forums sources). Vet Crypt of Hearts was pretty difficult the first time I ventured in there. When IC hit, it seemed even more difficult, though could still be done. It was challenging, but not to the extent that I felt like that hours of farming I put into being able to craft the gear I have did little to nothing for me. Going into IP or WGT, now, that's how it feels. It's difficulty isn't challenging, it's frustrating.

Is it a "stop catering to casuals" mindset? Why? Who started this idea that games should only be catered to those that can dedicate 6+ hours to a game a day/night? I'm lucky if I can play more than 5 hours in a week, 12 on the weekends. So, does that mean I'm not "allowed" to be able to enjoy group content because Jack puts in more time or Sally can play every day for as long as she wants? That's by choice, not necessity. However, by the "hardcore" standards you see in most MMOs, guilds should be requiring you to play certain builds/classes the way they deem fit for the guild, not your enjoyment.

Is it a "I don't want casuals to have my gear! I'm a snowflake!" reason? Again, why? What does someone else having the gear you have do to your game time? Nothing. It doesn't prevent the game from working, nor does it prevent dungeons from working.

Again, I'm not trying to harass or belittle, I just want to understand why changes like this are "bad".

Personofsecrets · October 2015

Well, the dungeons weren't not going to undergo a nerf.

omfgitsbatman · October 2015

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Good thing. Those 2 dungeons are really a bit too difficult at VR16.

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO · October 2015

@omfgitsbatman Totally agree with your post.

To be honest the nerfs aren't a shocker to me coz it happens in every MMO, but zos should have waited a little bit more to nerf the new content.

When the IC patch came in, it took us like 11 hrs each to complete the new vet dungeons, but now they've become much more easier coz we've done it so many times and have a good group chemistry. In fact me(DPS) and my friend (Tank), we 2 manned molag kena on vet mode the other day. So, in no way i would say that it's too difficult. It's just a matter of getting a group together and learning new dungeons with THAT group.

jakeedmundson · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

Malmai · October 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

Yep

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO · October 2015

He did mention it was the first time that took 6 hours. And it's because it takes time to learn new mechanics on the first run. I'm not an elitist or play the game whole day coz i can only log in at night after i come home. I'm just saying that there needs to be some difficult content unlike the old vet dungeons which most of the people can run through without any difficulty.

OmniDevil · October 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

I'm not sure I could have put it better, even if I tried. 100% agree.

omfgitsbatman · October 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

That's what normal is for.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

That's what normal is for.

Nope.
Because
1/ normal is way too easy for most "standard good" players (= boring)
2/ normal doesn't drop the same loot (VR15 only)

yes, I know, you'll come up with "but, deserved, blablah"...

The answer is : NO. The game shouldn't be designed around the 1% elite. It should be designed for the 25% "best" at the higher difficulty. I wouldn't mind if there were a "crazy" difficulty for people who enjoy crazy challenges, there could even be a leaderboard or whatever for it to "show your glory", but the drop should be the same. I don't mind people being offered an extra challenge for the fun or the glory but it should all be vanity / cosmetics. Item sets should not be gated behind too extreme difficulty.

NB : I already cleared both dungeons with my group.

paulsimonps · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

That's what normal is for.

Agreed that is what normal is for, I bet if we convinced the devs to give us a "Hardcore mode" so we could still get challenging content for us that want it, the casuals would complain that its to hard and demand they nerf it. You cannot only cater to the casuals and you can't only cater to the hardcore's, that's why we have different modes to separate the two, but everyone wants all the achievements and complete everything so they want it catered to themselves and that means if they can't complete then its to unfair and "PLOX NERF BAD DEVS!!!"

kojou · October 2015

I am all for challenging content, but when I try to get a Vet ICP group together and nobody wants to do it because it is too big of a pain in the ass, then there is a problem. Hopefully this will be enough that I can actually get people to run it with me.

redspecter23 · October 2015

ZOS, helping to create an endgame that more than 1% of the players can enjoy.

I'm totally in favor of changes like this. That being said, I'm also not against an ultra hard mode for bragging rights and possibly leaderboard status. Making your entire endgame (including gear progression) cater to the top 1% was never a good idea.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

paulsimonps wrote: »

Agreed that is what normal is for, I bet if we convinced the devs to give us a "Hardcore mode" so we could still get challenging content for us that want it, the casuals would complain that its to hard and demand they nerf it. You cannot only cater to the casuals and you can't only cater to the hardcore's, that's why we have different modes to separate the two, but everyone wants all the achievements and complete everything so they want it catered to themselves and that means if they can't complete then its to unfair and "PLOX NERF BAD DEVS!!!"

Nope. Again.
I could never complete Sanctum Ophidia on Hard Mode but I never asked for it to be nerfed. That's for better players than me and my groups and that's fine.
However, if specific set items had been gated behind that hard mode, I would have asked for it to be nerfed. Simple as that.

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO · October 2015

I can't even imagine the number of "plz nerf Maelstrom arena" posts in forum after it's released.

jakeedmundson · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

That's what normal is for.

i disagree... normal is to get acquainted with a dungeon. you get to know how it runs and you get starter gear drops.
normal mode isn't "casual only" content just like veteran mode isn't "elite player" only content. This game is like any other product...it needs to appeal to the majority to be successful and make money.
Everyone reaches "veteran" status by playing past the end of their faction's content. if you get to v16, have decent gear, and know your build... you should be able to group with friends and work your way through the vet content... but that's not how it works is it?
Too many times where dps is never enough... or the tank isn't tough enough... healer can't heal enough... it all seems to come down to champion points... someone can look up a build, put together gear, learn a rotation... but if you dont' have 400 cp, you won't beat certain parts of the game.... and thats stupid.... sorry, but it is.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

abhimat1999rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I can't even imagine the number of "plz nerf Maelstrom arena" posts in forum after it's released.

If after one months it has been beaten by only 2% or even 5% or the players on vet mode, yes, it will have to be nerfed. And that's normal.

OmniDevil · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Agreed that is what normal is for, I bet if we convinced the devs to give us a "Hardcore mode" so we could still get challenging content for us that want it, the casuals would complain that its to hard and demand they nerf it. You cannot only cater to the casuals and you can't only cater to the hardcore's, that's why we have different modes to separate the two, but everyone wants all the achievements and complete everything so they want it catered to themselves and that means if they can't complete then its to unfair and "PLOX NERF BAD DEVS!!!"

That bold part, right there, is defined by the exact attitude you have about this so called "Casual" player. You can't be a special snowflake if players who don't no-life a scenario in-game can obtain it to. Priorities must be difficult.

In the end, we all paid for the game, to some extent, therefore equal opportunity should be permitted to all players, regardless of "casual" or "hardcore" play styles.

By your definition of what a "Hardcore" player is and what a "Casual" isn't, you should all be participating in these eSports making hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournaments. Unless you are, then hey. Great.

Rayste · October 2015

The change needed to happen. ZOS has metrics ... They probably saw that only a small percentage of the population was completing said content.

What sense does it make to bother with new content when most of the population is unable to complete it? Just food for thought.

anitajoneb17_ESO · October 2015

Rayste wrote: »

The change needed to happen. ZOS has metrics ... They probably saw that only a small percentage of the population was completing said content.

What sense does it make to bother with new content when most of the population is unable to complete it? Just food for thought.

Most "elite" players don't care about others, all they care about is themselves and their "shine". They don't even care about the game really. It's just all competition to them. Nerfing stuff removes competition a bit.

tengri · October 2015

jakeedmundson wrote: »

the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it.

Don't worry, they don't.
Surely they think they do and there are a lot loudmouths from this category on here creating the illusion they matter most - but all things considered they are a rather insignificant little club.
And even @ZOS knows that... they only need some time to gather their data and adjust as needed.

Scyantific · October 2015

Wouldn't have been a problem in the first place if ZOS hadn't decided that "Veteran" mode was just turning everything into Bullet Sponges that hit like a truck.

code65536 · October 2015

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

I see both ends of the spectrum here. People want to experience all of the content, and others want a challenge. There are 2 difficulty modes for a reason. Normal is the mode for everyone and you can get all of the same gear just 1 level lower. Vet is the challenging mode. I thoroughly enjoyed the difficulty of Vet ICP and Vet WGT. My first clear of vet prison took well over 6 hours, and that wasn't even the first time I was there. The second they make their most "challenging" content so that anybody at all can do it is the second players start quitting out of boredom. In my honest opinion, the difference between vet 15 and 16 gear is a reward for the players that accepted the challenge offered to them and dedicated the time to conquer it.

The two things i highlighted in bold do not go together... and they should not go together.
there is a huge difference between accepting a challenge and dedicating large amounts of time to complete something.

Would i accept the challenge to beat vWGT? yep...
CAN i dedicate the amount of time required to complete it? not usually.
People seem to want some kind of... "forever" video game... and they get that "if you're not in it for the long haul then just gtfo!" baditude.
Here's an idea for you "elitists".... try doing something else for a while. Don't live on a game... Try branching out a little bit... play other games, or even crazier.... go outside. it's insane that you think a game should be catered to you because you have nothing better to do for 8 hours a day.

We all purchased this game... the top 10% shouldn't be the ones calling the shots on how everyone else plays it. You wanna talk about people getting annoyed/bored and leaving? it's already happening to a larger crowd because they CANT complete end game content. (me and 5 friends started this game around the same time... i'm the only one left) noone wants to spend 6 hours trying to pass a dungeon ONE time just to find out they didn't get any worth-while item to drop.
If they want difficult... great... but make the completion worth it and allow a much better chance for items.
if they want repeatable content... great... but make the content quicker/easier to get through so you can try it more than one time a week.
Don't try to do both... it doesn't work. THAT will make people quit.

That's what normal is for.

No. Normal is too damned easy. We breeze through normal without even trying.

The problem is that the "new" vet dungeons are so out of whack with the original vet dungeons in terms of difficulty. They should've tuned vet to what people have come to expect from a vet dungeon (er, perhaps a bit harder than that) and created a new hardcore mode for people who think it's fun to spend half of their waking hours in a day to clear a single dungeon.

Yea, I've cleared the new dungeons on vet mode to say that I can do it. But it's such a colossal waste of my time--time that I'd much rather spend on something else--and such a source of frustration (e.g., flesh grenades that require a clunky synergy key press and an even clunkier aiming method) that it's just not fun, and not worth doing on a regular basis, as is required for pledges.

Nifty2g · October 2015

Wait theres a mechanic on flesh sculptor?

If ZOS didn't spoonfeed half of the community then we would stop seeing nerfs like this, the "hardcore" players are the ones who have been around since the start and have dealt and played the hard content before ZOS decided to change their philosophy and cater largely to the weaker audience; 32 life trials, death penalties, time trials that were hard to get, trial hardmodes that took months.

Now we dont get death penalties and 72 life trials and easily beaten within 8 minutes or less. Not having a death penalty promotes an extremely bad playstyle.

Only way to fix this would be to add in what I like to call a mode for Veteran players and players who want to challenge themselves to better themselves at the game called Nightmare which increases the damage significantly and health to test your builds out and sustain etc etc, another thing players need to do is stop being so stubborn on their builds and acknowledge that it's not the best they can do, I see this so much in ESO people REFUSE to have help and get offended when you tell them they can do better than they are.

For example; this was posted over a month ago (September 14th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qSrkb8n9YY

This was posted 5 days ago (October 22nd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFkWuiJJvU

PBpsy · October 2015

Good job.

SienneYviete · October 2015

Nifty2g wrote: »

Wait theres a mechanic on flesh sculptor?

If ZOS didn't spoonfeed half of the community then we would stop seeing nerfs like this, the "hardcore" players are the ones who have been around since the start and have dealt and played the hard content before ZOS decided to change their philosophy and cater largely to the weaker audience; 32 life trials, death penalties, time trials that were hard to get, trial hardmodes that took months.

Now we dont get death penalties and 72 life trials and easily beaten within 8 minutes or less. Not having a death penalty promotes an extremely bad playstyle.

Only way to fix this would be to add in what I like to call a mode for Veteran players and players who want to challenge themselves to better themselves at the game called Nightmare which increases the damage significantly and health to test your builds out and sustain etc etc, another thing players need to do is stop being so stubborn on their builds and acknowledge that it's not the best they can do, I see this so much in ESO people REFUSE to have help and get offended when you tell them they can do better than they are.

For example; this was posted over a month ago (September 14th)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qSrkb8n9YY

This was posted 5 days ago (October 22nd)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFkWuiJJvU

While I agree that there should be an even harder difficulty, the fact that these dungeons are daily pledges is a fairly large part of why people want a nerf. Changing builds yeah i'm fine with that and did so to get through vwgt (still no prison yet, finding it really hard to get a group) the fact of the matter is most players even fairly decent ones don't have the time nor patience to roll hours and hours to get themselves through these dungeons.

Also of note is your group is not the average, well well above average in fact and you need to understand that the majority of the player base will never be able to pull the numbers you guys can.

Once again I would definitely be in favour of some type of hardcore mode and nerf the vet because the normal is just stupidly easy and for most current players the vet is just too difficult. Just my two cents.