What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

Tradewind

@Ragnarok0130 both vCR+3 and vAS+2 completed!

Ragnarok0130

kringled_1 wrote: »

Also, if you're telling me that you parse 90k on a HA build, how much of that is from the heavies and how much from abilities? Most strategies for vka HM that I've been a part of end up with players doing a lot of blocking to survive mechanics, and that has a high potential to impact ha builds more than traditional la builds.

Exactly, and I think that may be why HA guys were excluded from the referenced experience and not out of spite or hatred for HA builds. All of the raid leads I know are only interested in clearing and not "gatekeeping" so if a class or build will work they're take them if they can.

Tradewind

And because of this kind of "off-topic" created by me, did anyone provide a clear explanation for why it's necessary to see others DPS? If yes, could you please post it again? I've read the entire topic and haven't seen a clear answer to the question:
how bad it would be to the game if Zenimax completely removed DPS sharing.

Ragnarok0130

Tradewind wrote: »

And because of this kind of "off-topic" created by me, did anyone provide a clear explanation for why it's necessary to see others DPS? If yes, could you please post it again? I've read the entire topic and haven't seen a clear answer to the question:
how bad it would be to the game if Zenimax completely removed DPS sharing.

The reason DPS sharing and metrics sharing in general is good is because it gives a group the needed information visibility to identify shortcomings and triage them to improve. Without that information a 6 week prog could turn into a much longer prog with the potential to dissolve as people get frustrated since you won't be able to diagnose shortcomings in rotation/build/gear etc quickly or efficiently.

I prefer to look at data to gauge performance rather than throwing the bones for an omen from the divines to figure out why we're not downing the boss we've been bashing our head against.

thesarahandcompany

Seeing other players DPS, HPS or T(threat)PS is all about accountability. That's what it comes down to.

Are you accountable for your EQUITABLE share of damage, healing and threat in a given engagement so that the engagement is completed?


Every player needs to perform within a range of DPS, HPS or TPS in order fulfil their role. Some DPS who run buffs sets (like a Z'ens DK) have small ranges, while other DPS in pure damage sets have higher ranges.

If you want a role where people aren't looking at DPS meters, play tank. You just need to do mechanics. If you don't want to do mechanics, then MMOs aren't for you and this is a you problem.

KiltMaster

Tradewind wrote: »

And because of this kind of "off-topic" created by me, did anyone provide a clear explanation for why it's necessary to see others DPS? If yes, could you please post it again? I've read the entire topic and haven't seen a clear answer to the question:
how bad it would be to the game if Zenimax completely removed DPS sharing.

People answered you multiple times - you just didn't like their answers.

It's called carrying your own weight and being able to see who's not carrying their own weight.

Tradewind

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Seeing other players DPS, HPS or T(threat)PS is all about accountability. That's what it comes down to.

Are you accountable for your EQUITABLE share of damage, healing and threat in a given engagement so that the engagement is completed?


Every player needs to perform within a range of DPS, HPS or TPS in order fulfil their role. Some DPS who run buffs sets (like a Z'ens DK) have small ranges, while other DPS in pure damage sets have higher ranges.

If you want a role where people aren't looking at DPS meters, play tank. You just need to do mechanics. If you don't want to do mechanics, then

MMOs aren't for you and this is a you problem.

If Zenimax really implements a nerf to HA builds, only because "these builds inch a little too close to some of the high-end builds", they are actually do nothing to helping players with real disabilities avoid being kicked or rejected (Because functions like DPS Share). The same goes for players with bad rotations who may also be rejected for the same reason. Players who pay the game like any other one in here!

By doing this, Zenimax is allowing some players to participate in the hardest content, while allow players rejecting others due to low DPS.
I cannot support Zenimax and their excuse of "it's all okay." It is not okay to hide behind empty apologies and claim to respect all players while still allowing discrimination. Zenimax created Oakensoul for all players, but it seems that Zenimax does not care about creating an inclusive and fair gaming environment for all players who really need it.

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying Zenimax doesn't care because at this moment things need more work, but it's not so bad. I'm saying, if they nerf it, they don't care.

edit:

When ZeniMax changed the Templar animations, I became really angry with them, and I even stopped playing with my main character because of that. I can't even look for Jabs anymore. Although I wasn't happy about it, I eventually accepted the change and moved on. I switched to a different class and never returned to that character again.

If changes like this go forward, you can be 100% sure that this "company" will not have my support.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

And because of this kind of "off-topic" created by me, did anyone provide a clear explanation for why it's necessary to see others DPS? If yes, could you please post it again? I've read the entire topic and haven't seen a clear answer to the question:
how bad it would be to the game if Zenimax completely removed DPS sharing.

TL;DR: According to ZOS, they believe that DPS sharing is desirable for players using the tool for constructive purposes, not nefarious ones.


Right, if you want more detail, buckle in. This is a long one.

First, let's talk about why ZOS created Encounter Logs. It's a PC-only option, presumably because getting Console providers to allow it would've been a nightmare not dissimilar to their opinion on add-on code. Here's how ZOS introduced it: "You may remember that years ago, our addon API unintentionally allowed the ability to show group combat data in real time. While we saw a merit in this as tool, we disabled that capability due to the potential for misuse with having this information readily accessible in the game and in real time. Encounter logging provides a deep look into the same data, but external to the game and not in true real time. We believe these distinctions will swing the balance back towards using a tool like this for constructive purposes rather than nefarious ones. Additionally, we have added a setting located in the Combat settings menu that hides your character name from encounter logs. This means any combat events that are logged while you are present will display anonymously."

I've excerpted a relevant bit, but you can review the rest here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/467949/encounter-logging/p1

So the short answer: Tools like Encounter Logs and DPS-displaying addons should be used for constructive purposes, not nefarious ones.

And what are those constructive purposes?

Players can individually and/or cooperatively evaluate their performance(s) in great detail to target areas where they can improve at pretty much any level of gameplay, solo or group.

Why do you need DPS sharing from other players to do that?

As clarified by the creator of Encounter Logs in that linked thread, it doesn't work without DPS sharing. While the data can be anonymized (think of how Combat Metrics shows the total group damage instead of each individuals'), it has to be collected and included in the final results somehow or else you just don't get the results you need to use the tool constructively.

Kihra wrote: »

Regarding anonymity, I have lots of options for what I can do in the report UI of my site.

At the moment, the data shows up, but the name is listed as Anonymous, and everything else is unchanged. It's important for the data to be collected for anonymous players, because the logs essentially break if data is missing. Absorbs tracking, buff tracking, etc. breaks down and doesn't really work if the data for a person who is overwriting someone else's buff is missing, for example.

For example if person A and person B both apply Minor Savagery, but B is anonymous, if B's data didn't get written out at all, the log essentially breaks.

That said, what I can show in the UI for anonymous players is flexible. I could simply exclude them from damage done/healing done tables completely while keeping buffs/debuffs intact. I could lump all anonymous players together into a single damage done bar that isn't drillable, etc. There are lots of options.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of FTC or Combat Metrics to know if the same is true of them, but I'd guess it's similar that missing data makes it hard to calculate correctly.


A few points that add context to the above:

1. From before Launch, ZOS intended for PC players to use the API to make additions to ESO as necessary. (If you want sources for that, I can link them too.) Therefore, you cannot look at the limited tools that Console players are left with and say that's how ZOS meant ESO to be played. Rather, you have to look at what they allow in the API. Currently, that's real-time anonymized DPS sharing i.e. you can see the total group DPS and your percentage of that, and Encounter Log's after-the-fact individualized DPS logs.

2. There was an addon that showed each group member's individual DPS. ZOS removed that part of the API but retained the ability of addons to show real-time anonymized DPS sharing.

If you are interested in reviewing the historical reasons for ZOS removing that functionality in the first place, here you go:

This thread summs up a lot of reasons, along with the debate over the issue. I particularly went looking for what ZOS said at the time they changed the original API. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/424995/more-transparency-about-dmg-in-dungeon/p6

Specifically:

So the change came in Patch 2.2.10
"Addons
Combat events that do not involve the player no longer have source unit IDs."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25575

There's a comment by a ZOS dev on the comments of the Group Damage add on (the one that had this function) stating it was an oversight and not intended: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1259&so=DESC&page=3#comments

As explained by Gina in this thread, this means that add-ons can't assign names of other players to combat events. Essentially, you can have a self-dps counter and a whole group counter, but the API functions that allowed the Group Damage add on to display individual DPS no longer work. (Apparently, the devs may have commented on this on ESO Live, but I can't check this or find specific info I'd be willing to quote) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2615322#Comment_2615322

Further down in that thread, Gina Bruno says:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241251/spy-addon-group-damage/p19
"Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others."

That thread should also give you an idea of the conversation around the time of the API function removal. Its not that different from our discussion now in 2018.


This thread discussing the practical API changes has a ZOS staff member discussing the reasons for removing the function and some of the alternatives they considered as well as why they decided those alternatives weren't used. Kicking people for low DPS and the fear people would be kicked for opting out of showing their DPS was part of their decisionmaking process: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6024



To summarize for anyone who doesn't want to wade through all the sources like I did:

The Group Damage add on allowed players to view individual DPS from each group member without player consent. Many players liked this, many players complained, for approximately the same reasons rehashed in this thread.

ZOS removed the function to assign names to combat events, only permitting the API to release self DPS counters and whole group DPS counters.

In the ZOS staff member's commentary, they stated that DPS counts aren't the whole of the fight, and allowing individual DPS counters without consent would lead to people being unfairly kicked for bad pulls or being below the group leader's idea of desired DPS. Additionally, they considered an option to opt out of DPS sharing, but ultimately decided that people would in practice by kicked/assumed to be bad if they opted out of showing their DPS.

3. If you review the rest of that Encounter Logs thread I linked, you will see a lot of players, including me, arguing that ZOS should make the Anonymity function anonymous by default. Do think about the fact that in ZOS' original plan, Encounter Logs was not anonymous by default. ZOS is less concerned with keeping DPS parses private than players are.


Now that that's all out of the way, I'd like to drop a personal note on my opinion.

ZOS is right. Tools like Encounter Logs and Combat Metrics are valuable when used constructively. Just because you have a problem with some players using them in way that you feel is nefarious is not an excuse to try to remove them for the many players who use those tools well.

Necrotech_Master

Tradewind wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Seeing other players DPS, HPS or T(threat)PS is all about accountability. That's what it comes down to.

Are you accountable for your EQUITABLE share of damage, healing and threat in a given engagement so that the engagement is completed?


Every player needs to perform within a range of DPS, HPS or TPS in order fulfil their role. Some DPS who run buffs sets (like a Z'ens DK) have small ranges, while other DPS in pure damage sets have higher ranges.

If you want a role where people aren't looking at DPS meters, play tank. You just need to do mechanics. If you don't want to do mechanics, then

MMOs aren't for you and this is a you problem.

If Zenimax really implements a nerf to HA builds, only because "these builds inch a little too close to some of the high-end builds", they are actually do nothing to helping players with real disabilities avoid being kicked or rejected (Because functions like DPS Share). The same goes for players with bad rotations who may also be rejected for the same reason. Players who pay the game like any other one in here!

By doing this, Zenimax is allowing some players to participate in the hardest content, while allow players rejecting others due to low DPS.
I cannot support Zenimax and their excuse of "it's all okay." It is not okay to hide behind empty apologies and claim to respect all players while still allowing discrimination. Zenimax created Oakensoul for all players, but it seems that Zenimax does not care about creating an inclusive and fair gaming environment for all players who really need it.

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying Zenimax doesn't care because at this moment things need more work, but it's not so bad. I'm saying, if they nerf it, they don't care.

edit:

When ZeniMax changed the Templar animations, I became really angry with them, and I even stopped playing with my main character because of that. I can't even perform Jabs anymore. Although I wasn't happy about it, I eventually accepted the change and moved on. I switched to a different class and never returned to that character again.

If changes like this go forward, you can be 100% sure that this "company" will not have my support.

this is way overboard hyperbole

-10% on the empower buff is hardly noticeable

storm master is only 1 potential HA set

sergeant is not being changed

if storm master is too hard to keep up, just switch to another HA set

• undaunted infiltrator
• undaunted unweaver
• noble duelist
• infallible aether

the undaunted sets actually have a slightly higher bonus than storm master (storm master is like 1548, undaunted sets are like 1600ish, almost 100 extra dmg on the HA than storm master)

you wouldnt even need oakensoul to run with this

one of the undaunted sets can proc with a magicka skill, and you get empower with mages guild skill, the duration of both effects is 10 sec, so you would be able to maintain your dmg and empower using 1 skill every 9 sec (roughly every 4th heavy attack)

this slight nerf has nothing to do with why some people arent meeting group expectations

Amottica

Tradewind wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Seeing other players DPS, HPS or T(threat)PS is all about accountability. That's what it comes down to.

Are you accountable for your EQUITABLE share of damage, healing and threat in a given engagement so that the engagement is completed?


Every player needs to perform within a range of DPS, HPS or TPS in order fulfil their role. Some DPS who run buffs sets (like a Z'ens DK) have small ranges, while other DPS in pure damage sets have higher ranges.

If you want a role where people aren't looking at DPS meters, play tank. You just need to do mechanics. If you don't want to do mechanics, then

MMOs aren't for you and this is a you problem.

By doing this, Zenimax is allowing some players to participate in the hardest content, while allow players rejecting others due to low DPS.
I cannot support Zenimax and their excuse of "it's all okay." It is not okay to hide behind empty apologies and claim to respect all players while still allowing discrimination.

The groups/teams that put in the effort required to clear the most challenging content earn the ability to clear that content. Teams (and players) who do not put the effort required are not able to clear the content because they have not reached that level of play.

Zenimax is not deciding who is worthy and who is not as that first comes down to the individual players and then the team rising to the occasion.

All Zenimax is doing is giving groups the tools to help find out where they are doing well and where they are coming up short.

Put it this way. Across many MMORPGs, in every group I have been part of that had the goal of clearing the most challenging content and accomplishing the more challenging achievements we have had requirements. DDs had DPS requirements they had to meet. If they came up short we would help. If they did not improve and especially if they ignored the help they would rightfully be booted from the team. The only people who were toxic were the ones who did not put in the effort to improve.

If running with a pug group and a player is on the receiving end of toxicity because their damage is low then the problem is they are running with a pug group. It is best to find a guild that is right for their play level and fits their needs. The groups one will find in such guilds will be far superior to the regular pug experience most of the time.

Choosing to run with pugs, and especially GF groups is asking for randomness in all areas and one will get exactly what they ask for.

thesarahandcompany

Tradewind wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Seeing other players DPS, HPS or T(threat)PS is all about accountability. That's what it comes down to.

Are you accountable for your EQUITABLE share of damage, healing and threat in a given engagement so that the engagement is completed?


Every player needs to perform within a range of DPS, HPS or TPS in order fulfil their role. Some DPS who run buffs sets (like a Z'ens DK) have small ranges, while other DPS in pure damage sets have higher ranges.

If you want a role where people aren't looking at DPS meters, play tank. You just need to do mechanics. If you don't want to do mechanics, then

MMOs aren't for you and this is a you problem.

If Zenimax really implements a nerf to HA builds, only because "these builds inch a little too close to some of the high-end builds", they are actually do nothing to helping players with real disabilities avoid being kicked or rejected (Because functions like DPS Share). The same goes for players with bad rotations who may also be rejected for the same reason. Players who pay the game like any other one in here!

By doing this, Zenimax is allowing some players to participate in the hardest content, while allow players rejecting others due to low DPS.
I cannot support Zenimax and their excuse of "it's all okay." It is not okay to hide behind empty apologies and claim to respect all players while still allowing discrimination. Zenimax created Oakensoul for all players, but it seems that Zenimax does not care about creating an inclusive and fair gaming environment for all players who really need it.

Just to make it clear, I'm not saying Zenimax doesn't care because at this moment things need more work, but it's not so bad. I'm saying, if they nerf it, they don't care.

edit:

When ZeniMax changed the Templar animations, I became really angry with them, and I even stopped playing with my main character because of that. I can't even look for Jabs anymore. Although I wasn't happy about it, I eventually accepted the change and moved on. I switched to a different class and never returned to that character again.

If changes like this go forward, you can be 100% sure that this "company" will not have my support.

I love how you think preventing people from holding you accountable to low DPS via DPS meters is suddenly going to make the game equitable. Why don't you just go ahead and admit it hurts your self-esteem to be told your DPS is too low? Seems like it would be easier and allow us to have a real conversation about the real issue.

Also, what is a "real" disability? Who decides that and how? What disabilities are preventing people from completing content in one way? I have two types of cognitive disability, but can complete content. Be specific.

Another thing: reasonable accommodations.

If changes like this go forward, you can be 100% sure that this "company" will not have my support.
Ummm, ok I guess? Lol weird angry flex attempt.

Galeriano

ESO logs are one of the best moves ZoS did for the game.

Logs improved gameplay on many levels. First now when something goes wrong raid leaders can see during the raid (if they have live log) or after the raid what was that and make proper adjustments way easier than before logs era.

People can learn what sets are the best in every specific boss and trash fights just by visiting the website and inspecting logs of others if they were made public. Even console players do this.

Logs are full of usefull options. For example there is an replay option where You can see how players were moving during the fights. There is an option to see who died from what which allows to know what peoiple are struggling the most with etc.

If someone asks me for advice and will provide the logs I can help that person by instecting logs and I will find all usefull informations up to a minute details. I will know uptimes of every buff on that person, their rotation, their setup, their movement during the fight, their activation of synergies their resource managment etc. I will literally be able to find every mistake they made and tell them how they can improve in that area. Without logs it would be way longer and way more tedious task.

Many of these things would be gone if ZoS would turn off the logs. The benefits of logs being in the game are way bigger than fact some people feel bad that others know their DPS.

Tradewind

@VaranisArano

When I sent my previous reply, I believed it would be the last one. However, I want to show you the respect and care you have shown me by responding to your message with equal attention.
I believe that you have already read everything that I have previously stated. Therefore, I will refrain from repeating myself. However, if there is a specific point where you require further explanation, please do not hesitate to ask, as I would be happy to provide it.

In order to avoid any confusion, allow me to clarify this:

If players are struggling to find a group in the in-game chat to complete a difficult task, such as vDSR HM, it's time to consider other options. Joining an active and skilled guild is a great way to tackle challenging content and make progress as a team.
Of course, you need to enter our amazing Discord guild, and don't forget, you need to use the same name in Discord as in-game. This is 100% mandatory if you wish to participate and join in our amazing rides. Well... ok... i think!

Then let's imagine that one day, the guild creates a roost for vSDR HM, and all guild members are eligible to sign up and participate. Sounds simple, right? Fantastic, everything seems to be going smoothly so far.

Then, you can sign up. Finally, you can try vDSR HM. Amazing!!

****Must have addons**** Raid Leader don't even care if you parse 150k. You will install and enable all addons ****

• Qcell's Dreadsail Reef Helper
• Hodor Reflexes
• CodesCombatAlerts
• etc...

But wait, don't forget that this guild has, for example, just 30 active players (Yes, I'm talking about a kind of guild that is only moderately active) and let's say 23 players sign up.

Now, raid leader has to pick who they will bring along because only 12 players can be selected. So far so good, right?

-All those 23 players who sign up, send printscreen with parse for Discord leader? let's say 3 don't. Great! They are automatically excluded. If they cannot send one screenshot, it is more than certain that they cannot parse or understand mechanics. They are out.
-Out of the remaining 20 players, who haven't sent a print screen to prove they have a clean vDSR HM.Let's say 8 (not everyone can complete it due to so many reasons). They are "semi" excluded because maybe someone has more DPS than the remaining 12 players.
-Out of these 12 players, who plays with HA? Let's say 2 players, because these guys can't handle 120k in 2 bars. But they can easily handle 80k with HA. ***And now selection is beginning*** From the previous, are there any semi-excluded players who can parse near 120k and want to try vDSR HM? Yes? Great welcome aboard!!! HA players just got a kick out of the game.

Why!? Why did they get kicked?

• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't send a parse? No.
• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't complete vDSR HM? No. They have completed.
• Are they getting kicked out because they don't have enought DPS? Yes. Because doing around 100k in 2 bars is perfectly acceptable, but doing only 90k in HA is not. There are many players with more DPS than you, and they use both bars. Go learn the rotation\weaving and return when you feel comfortable. PS: Don't forget to send us the parse with 2 bars.
• By the way, why are you playing with HA? You should try learning weaving instead. We can help you and there are a lot of tutorials on YouTube that can assist you. It's very easy, and we will help you with anything you need - anything.
• In the future, when this player sign up again, raid leader will ask if the he trainee and send the parse. If not, the raid leader may call him, but only if there's no one else available This dude is burned.

You know this is the truth. You may not like it, I don't like it, Zenimax surely doesn't like it. But it's the truth. You know this is exactly what's happening in Discord groups and you need Discord groups because there is no alternative for this.

But maybe you and Zenimax are forgetting that some players can't simply parse with two bars. They just can't. And because they can't parse, they are excluded. There's no alternative for these guys. There's nothing out there or in-game. Nothing!


@VaranisArano - I really appreciate the time you took to reply to me and all the work you did to explain certain points. But I cannot be any clearer than this.

thesarahandcompany

Tradewind wrote: »

@VaranisArano

When I sent my previous reply, I believed it would be the last one. However, I want to show you the respect and care you have shown me by responding to your message with equal attention.
I believe that you have already read everything that I have previously stated. Therefore, I will refrain from repeating myself. However, if there is a specific point where you require further explanation, please do not hesitate to ask, as I would be happy to provide it.

In order to avoid any confusion, allow me to clarify this:

If players are struggling to find a group in the in-game chat to complete a difficult task, such as vDSR HM, it's time to consider other options. Joining an active and skilled guild is a great way to tackle challenging content and make progress as a team.
Of course, you need to enter our amazing Discord guild, and don't forget, you need to use the same name in Discord as in-game. This is 100% mandatory if you wish to participate and join in our amazing rides. Well... ok... i think!

Then let's imagine that one day, the guild creates a roost for vSDR HM, and all guild members are eligible to sign up and participate. Sounds simple, right? Fantastic, everything seems to be going smoothly so far.

Then, you can sign up. Finally, you can try vDSR HM. Amazing!!

****Must have addons**** Raid Leader don't even care if you parse 150k. You will install and enable all addons ****

• Qcell's Dreadsail Reef Helper
• Hodor Reflexes
• CodesCombatAlerts
• etc...

But wait, don't forget that this guild has, for example, just 30 active players (Yes, I'm talking about a kind of guild that is only moderately active) and let's say 23 players sign up.

Now, raid leader has to pick who they will bring along because only 12 players can be selected. So far so good, right?

-All those 23 players who sign up, send printscreen with parse for Discord leader? let's say 3 don't. Great! They are automatically excluded. If they cannot send one screenshot, it is more than certain that they cannot parse or understand mechanics. They are out.
-Out of the remaining 20 players, who haven't sent a print screen to prove they have a clean vDSR HM.Let's say 8 (not everyone can complete it due to so many reasons). They are "semi" excluded because maybe someone has more DPS than the remaining 12 players.
-Out of these 12 players, who plays with HA? Let's say 2 players, because these guys can't handle 120k in 2 bars. But they can easily handle 80k with HA. ***And now selection is beginning*** From the previous, are there any semi-excluded players who can parse near 120k and want to try vDSR HM? Yes? Great welcome aboard!!! HA players just got a kick out of the game.

Why!? Why did they get kicked?

• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't send a parse? No.
• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't complete vDSR HM? No. They have completed.
• Are they getting kicked out because they don't have enought DPS? Yes. Because doing around 100k in 2 bars is perfectly acceptable, but doing only 90k in HA is not. There are many players with more DPS than you, and they use both bars. Go learn the rotation\weaving and return when you feel comfortable. PS: Don't forget to send us the parse with 2 bars.

You know this is the truth. You know this is exactly what's happening in Discord groups and you need Discord groups because there is no alternative for this.

But maybe you and Zenimax are forgetting that some players can't simply parse with two bars. They just can't. And because they can't parse, they are excluded. There's no alternative for these guys. There's nothing out there or in-game. Nothing!


@VaranisArano - I really appreciate the time you took to reply to me and all the work you did to explain certain points. But I cannot be any clearer than this.

OK if there's no alternative, then what in the hell are turning off logs going to do? Have ZOS make an alternative. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Aislinna

There are alternative reasons that a person isn't invited back into a group and it isn't their DPS amount or build style.
Good luck.

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

@VaranisArano

When I sent my previous reply, I believed it would be the last one. However, I want to show you the respect and care you have shown me by responding to your message with equal attention.
I believe that you have already read everything that I have previously stated. Therefore, I will refrain from repeating myself. However, if there is a specific point where you require further explanation, please do not hesitate to ask, as I would be happy to provide it.

In order to avoid any confusion, allow me to clarify this:

If players are struggling to find a group in the in-game chat to complete a difficult task, such as vDSR HM, it's time to consider other options. Joining an active and skilled guild is a great way to tackle challenging content and make progress as a team.
Of course, you need to enter our amazing Discord guild, and don't forget, you need to use the same name in Discord as in-game. This is 100% mandatory if you wish to participate and join in our amazing rides. Well... ok... i think!

Then let's imagine that one day, the guild creates a roost for vSDR HM, and all guild members are eligible to sign up and participate. Sounds simple, right? Fantastic, everything seems to be going smoothly so far.

Then, you can sign up. Finally, you can try vDSR HM. Amazing!!

****Must have addons**** Raid Leader don't even care if you parse 150k. You will install and enable all addons ****

• Qcell's Dreadsail Reef Helper
• Hodor Reflexes
• CodesCombatAlerts
• etc...

But wait, don't forget that this guild has, for example, just 30 active players (Yes, I'm talking about a kind of guild that is only moderately active) and let's say 23 players sign up.

Now, raid leader has to pick who they will bring along because only 12 players can be selected. So far so good, right?

-All those 23 players who sign up, send printscreen with parse for Discord leader? let's say 3 don't. Great! They are automatically excluded. If they cannot send one screenshot, it is more than certain that they cannot parse or understand mechanics. They are out.
-Out of the remaining 20 players, who haven't sent a print screen to prove they have a clean vDSR HM.Let's say 8 (not everyone can complete it due to so many reasons). They are "semi" excluded because maybe someone has more DPS than the remaining 12 players.
-Out of these 12 players, who plays with HA? Let's say 2 players, because these guys can't handle 120k in 2 bars. But they can easily handle 80k with HA. ***And now selection is beginning*** From the previous, are there any semi-excluded players who can parse near 120k and want to try vDSR HM? Yes? Great welcome aboard!!! HA players just got a kick out of the game.

Why!? Why did they get kicked?

• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't send a parse? No.
• Are they getting kicked out because they didn't complete vDSR HM? No. They have completed.
• Are they getting kicked out because they don't have enought DPS? Yes. Because doing around 100k in 2 bars is perfectly acceptable, but doing only 90k in HA is not. There are many players with more DPS than you, and they use both bars. Go learn the rotation\weaving and return when you feel comfortable. PS: Don't forget to send us the parse with 2 bars.
• By the way, why are you playing with HA? You should try learning weaving instead. We can help you and there are a lot of tutorials on YouTube that can assist you. It's very easy, and we will help you with anything you need - anything.
• In the future, when this player sign up again, raid leader will ask if the he trainee and send the parse. If not, the raid leader may call him, but only if there's no one else available This dude is burned.

You know this is the truth. You may not like it, I don't like it, Zenimax surely doesn't like it. But it's the truth. You know this is exactly what's happening in Discord groups and you need Discord groups because there is no alternative for this.

But maybe you and Zenimax are forgetting that some players can't simply parse with two bars. They just can't. And because they can't parse, they are excluded. There's no alternative for these guys. There's nothing out there or in-game. Nothing!


@VaranisArano - I really appreciate the time you took to reply to me and all the work you did to explain certain points. But I cannot be any clearer than this.

vDSR HM is an absolutely awful example for your point. Most endgamers can't even get a group for it, I've only seen like 3 rosters for it ever, personally. It's one of, if not the hardest hardmode in the game. Of course people are going to look for the highest DPS. Since it's so hard to find a group, I haven't done it myself even, but it's also possible that HA just won't work well for the mechanics. Honestly, I don't even know if I can do the HM, required parses could be 110k-120k, I wouldn't be surprised.

Edit: Also might I add that, as I stated earlier, there's at LEAST two DPS checks that will 100% wipe the group if you fail and that's just on non-hm, there might be more on HM.

thesarahandcompany

Tradewind wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

There's nothing to explain.

You have to be accountable for how much DPS you do when it's required for everyone hit thresholds to complete the hardest content in the game. There's no blanket discrimination or exclusion. There's reasonable accommodations that you can participate in most content with a HA build or other non-competitive build.

[edited to remove quote]

Kirawolfe

I'm not sure why this is concerning. I do middling dps and have done vet dungeons and vet trials. Not in a prog group or anything because I just don't care. But in some low-key guilds where they are really not fussed.

I love seeing my dps - even as meh as it is - stacked up against others. I like seeing other people's numbers, and I enjoy seeing what skills they've slotted, what they're making work, and what they aren't, because it helps me understand how I can get better.

I don't take it as an invasion of privacy. I also get why groups who are serious about storming through content want to know these things. It's important to them, they want to do the best they can - they as a group want to see where there is room for improvement.

Ratzkifal

I can sympathize with the sentiment of not counting HA parses because if you want to recruit people for your guild, you want people who are going to stay in your guild and not drop out after 3 months. That HA builds can deal proper damage is kind of a new development and ZOS likes to make wild adjustments to balance, so as a guild leader you really can't tell whether HA builds are going to be sticking around or not and for that matter you cannot tell whether people who completed the parse requirement using a HA build will stick around either.
I think ZOS is committed to keeping HA builds viable, so their parses should count, but it's undeniable that you can't be sure that something that works in ESO today will still be anywhere near viable in 3 months from now. Elfbane didn't stick around either on DKs even though that was the most fun I was having with a DK to this day and it was universally agreed upon that it was a good change.

kringled_1

You're kind of all over the place here, Tradewind.
I no longer know if this is about your guilds vdsr prog group, or a hypothetical vka hm group; if its about dps or HA builds or what.
A few bottom line principles, though:
As long as ZOS includes a significant number of dps checks in the harder content, there will always be reasons for groups to look at player damage to figure out why they are failing checks.
Raid leads will pick their own groups. Their reasons may be soundly based in data, or irrational. You're not going to be able to get ZOS to change that. Even if you got a lot of people to agree with you in this thread, it won't get you into that vdsr HM group.
Not all difficult content is for everyone. There are going to be people who will not be able to do certain HMs. Most of us think this is ok.

hrothbern

Tradewind wrote: »

How bad would it be if ZOS disables this API?
Why do players need to see and know other players' DPS? In my opinion, this creates more conflict between players than anything else. It's only because players can see other players' DPS that they harass, bully, and make fun of those who have lower DPS. In your opinion, how bad would this be for the game and why?

To consider:

Whatever we do in this game regarding good or bad social behavior... it will reflect RL social behavior.

And just like in RL handling situations develops a consensus on what is ok or not and socialises us, most of us, to some extent towards a more agreeable, less repulsive code of behavior.
Children fighting over the most desired toys in a kindergarten learn actually to give and take, to negotiate, etc.
Nearby parents or employees trying to intervene, control, restrict, regulate too much mostly remove the social learning.

VaranisArano

@Tradewind

None of what you just said addressed any of the points I made re: what harm would be done to ESO if ZOS removed DPS sharing from the API.

ZOS believes that the merits of most players using DPS sharing tools constructively outweigh the problems potentially caused by a few players using them nefariously. I have provided sources to this effect, not hypotheticals.

I also remind you that even on console, ZOS has provided the Combat Dummies that most endgame Guilds use as their standard for comparing parses and has actively adjusted it to better reflect the buffs available in those guild raids. Even without DPS sharing addons, players are still able to share and evaluate their DPS.

Don't blame the tool just because a few fools might be using it to discriminate without cause. Removing DPS sharing tools and Combat Dummies won't solve that problem, while it will harm the many players who use it constructively.

Ratzkifal

VaranisArano wrote: »

@Tradewind

None of what you just said addressed any of the points I made re: what harm would be done to ESO if ZOS removed DPS sharing from the API.

ZOS believes that the merits of most players using DPS sharing tools constructively outweigh the problems potentially caused by a few players using them nefariously. I have provided sources to this effect, not hypotheticals.

I also remind you that even on console, ZOS has provided the Combat Dummies that most endgame Guilds use as their standard for comparing parses and has actively adjusted it to better reflect the buffs available in those guild raids. Even without DPS sharing addons, players are still able to share and evaluate their DPS.

Don't blame the tool just because a few fools might be using it to discriminate without cause. Removing DPS sharing tools and Combat Dummies won't solve that problem, while it will harm the many players who use it constructively.

Not to mention that before we had all these tools we could still do dps tests. Anyone remember having to do Bloodspawn solo? If we know the boss's health and we simply count the seconds it takes to defeat, then we can calculate the dps.

rpa

My previous mmo of choice (which was targeted to "hardcore" players at launch which was one of the reasons it did not get bigger success) had tools to check dps and log fights of everyone in group and one also could inspect gear of any non-enemy player. It was super useful for anyone wanting to improve their build.

FeedbackOnly

Then it will just be kicked the lowest champion point player

rpa

By the way, I'm casual enough I do not remember my CP other than it may be over 1700 and every time I google up how I'm supposed to set CP for a class/role I get points left unused. It is a measure how much time someone has wasted playing the game, not how advanced or good they are.

Dr_Con

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Then it will just be kicked the lowest champion point player

at some point, the number of CP doesnt matter (i want to say soft 660, hard 1.1k). CP isn't any sort of indicator of skill, but it is a check, new players with 160 cp won't be able to do the same content as new players with 700 cp

Sarannah

There is no need for anyone to see another player's DPS, you can see if the group works when everything dies quick enough. Personally I want this removed, especially as this is all some players focus on. Low DPS players barely ever happen, and when they do happen it is usually the fault of the one staring at the DPS meter. Players have gotten too used to judge others, where they should only be judging themselves.

We should be able to exclude our accounts from other players their add-ons completely. It only creates toxicity, and there is no need to have this in the game.

Did a dungeon recently as a tank, on a new build. This build already had enough defences and everything else, so I choose to equip an oakensoul for the bonusses instead, as I always play singlebar anyways. Immediately upon entering the normal dungeon someone felt the need to insult me for using oakensoul. So yes, add-ons that spy on other players do only create toxicity.

I miss the time where players were actually gamers, and played for fun. And not this current group of meta-chasing people playing games to belittle others for what they think others should be/do/wear. To me, these are not gamers. Sadly because of add-ons, this is the playerbase ZOS caters to. In my opinion add-ons are a problem for the game not a solution, and should all be removed.

So to answer your question, what would happen if ZOS removes players seeing other players their DPS: Less toxicity. While it would not change the gameplay in any way. Groups that underperform can see the issue(s), and those players would still be kicked, regardless of DPS add-ons showing anything or not.

kringled_1

Sarannah wrote: »

There is no need for anyone to see another player's DPS, you can see if the group works when everything dies quick enough. Personally I want this removed, especially as this is all some players focus on. Low DPS players barely ever happen, and when they do happen it is usually the fault of the one staring at the DPS meter. Players have gotten too used to judge others, where they should only be judging themselves.

We should be able to exclude our accounts from other players their add-ons completely. It only creates toxicity, and there is no need to have this in the game.

Did a dungeon recently as a tank, on a new build. This build already had enough defences and everything else, so I choose to equip an oakensoul for the bonusses instead, as I always play singlebar anyways. Immediately upon entering the normal dungeon someone felt the need to insult me for using oakensoul. So yes, add-ons that spy on other players do only create toxicity.

I miss the time where players were actually gamers, and played for fun. And not this current group of meta-chasing people playing games to belittle others for what they think others should be/do/wear. To me, these are not gamers. Sadly because of add-ons, this is the playerbase ZOS caters to. In my opinion add-ons are a problem for the game not a solution, and should all be removed.

So to answer your question, what would happen if ZOS removes players seeing other players their DPS: Less toxicity. While it would not change the gameplay in any way. Groups that underperform can see the issue(s), and those players would still be kicked, regardless of DPS add-ons showing anything or not.

All DPS sharing in addons requires participation on the part of all players. If you are running an addon that shares dps and you don't like that feature, either turn the feature off or uninstall the addon. Boom, there is no live dps sharing. People can infer something your dps from group dps and their own but thats a different thing.
Literally there is absolutely no way for any addon to see what gear someone else has equipped. Full stop. Noone saw you were using oakensoul via an addon. It's possible if they had a log running and went to analyze it live, but I've never seen anyone do that either for a random dungeon. Its far easier to guess that you were running the ring because you never ever bar swapped.

danno8

Sarannah wrote: »

There is no need for anyone to see another player's DPS, you can see if the group works when everything dies quick enough.

And if stuff doesn't die quick enough? What then? Why did it happen? Who were the low DPS that need improvement/replacement?

Sarannah wrote: »

Low DPS players barely ever happen, and when they do happen it is usually the fault of the one staring at the DPS meter.

Low DPS is primarily caused by DPS addons? What? Low DPS is primarily caused by poor gear/rotation or lack of knowledge of the content causing confusion and/or death.

I don't understand why people who have this "no DPS requirements" attitude don't just combine and form their own guild/groups. Sounds like a perfect solution.