What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

Katheriah

Well I want to be a doctor even though I'm not koalafied to be one.

Tradewind

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

"Deserve" has nothing to do with getting difficultachievements. Either you can, or you can't.

What does that even mean to you? Should all players have the same DPS? Why do you have perfect and non-perfect item sets if all those who use the perfect version don't deserve (according to your thoughts) to have more DPS?!

[snip]

edit:
Unless you're proposing that Zenimax implements more challenging mechanics and balances DPS across all builds, whether they use two bars or just one, your point is unclear.

[edited for baiting]

MachineGod

Tradewind wrote: »

This is Elder Scrolls Online, a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. "multiplayer".

One more time. DPS sharing does nothing better then promote discrimination between players.

No it doesn't. The sooner you accept whatever it is that happened to you the better.

Also you don't even need DPS sharing to see what other people's DPS is especially from a second DD standpoint. I can simply measure my own and extrapolate what the rest of the group is doing. Do you think I should not be able to see my own DPS in that case? It's very easy to do as well.

Do you think we should even see our own damage numbers?

I wonder what the end goal here is because so far almost no one agrees with you. Just an observation.

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

"Deserve" has nothing to do with getting difficultachievements. Either you can, or you can't.

What does that even mean to you? Should all players have the same DPS? Why do you have perfect and non-perfect item sets if all those who use the perfect version don't deserve (according to your thoughts) to have more DPS?!

[snip]

[snip]

Look sometimes people can put an enormous amount of effort into something and still be bad at it. If you don't have the dps, if you miss the block and die, if you can't master the hardmode mechanics, it doesn't matter how hard you work or how much time you put into your build or how creative you are-- you don't get the achievement, period.

[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

CompM4s

Reality is not everyone gets to win. Its like back in school; not everyone can make the varsity team. It may seem insensitive, but disabled people don’t make varsity either. At least zos makes some great accommodations for disabled players and provides plenty of content they can complete. Just not Vet Hm Trials.

Tradewind

MachineGod wrote: »

No it doesn't. The sooner you accept whatever it is that happened to you the better.

This happened to me, and of course, I have to accept it, but I don't agree, and ZeniMax should not tolerate such a thing.

MachineGod wrote: »

Also you don't even need DPS sharing to see what other people's DPS is especially from a second DD standpoint.

I agree, that's why I say this DPS function should be removed.

MachineGod wrote: »

Do you think we should even see our own damage numbers?

If you want to increase your damage output, it's important to monitor your DPS. So, yes you should!

MachineGod wrote: »

I wonder what the end goal here is because so far almost no one agrees with you. Just an observation.

This is a "free" forum, where I, you, or anyone else can create a topic to talk or discuss about any subject related to the game. I'm not seeking for votes, otherwise I would have made a Poll. My idea is to show my displeasure with something that I consider a complete absurdity and understand your points of view. It's true that nobody agrees with me, well, I don't agree with you either.

edit:
As long as I have the right to create a topic about something that I believe should be discussed with everyone, I will do so. [snip]

[edited for minor bashing]

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

MachineGod wrote: »

No it doesn't. The sooner you accept whatever it is that happened to you the better.

This happened to me, and of course, I have to accept it, but I don't agree, and ZeniMax should not tolerate such a thing.

MachineGod wrote: »

Also you don't even need DPS sharing to see what other people's DPS is especially from a second DD standpoint.

I agree, that's why I say this DPS function should be removed.

MachineGod wrote: »

Do you think we should even see our own damage numbers?

If you want to increase your damage output, it's important to monitor your DPS. So, yes you should!

MachineGod wrote: »

I wonder what the end goal here is because so far almost no one agrees with you. Just an observation.

This is a "free" forum, where I, you, or anyone else can create a topic to talk or discuss about any subject related to the game. I'm not seeking for votes, otherwise I would have made a Poll. My idea is to show my displeasure with something that I consider a complete absurdity and understand your points of view. It's true that nobody agrees with me, well, I don't agree with you either.

edit:
As long as I have the right to create a topic about something that I believe should be discussed with everyone, I will do so. But I wouldn't be surprised if things changed to something like: "You can only create topics to discuss things that the majority agrees on.

Your story is just... all over the place.

At various points you've claimed that you have high dps and have done "most" hardmodes, you aren't low dps or disabled just speaking on behalf of and sometimes over the top of players who are.

But here is a thread started by you claiming to be 250 CP and getting bullied in Selene's web for having low dps, and you've also claimed in this thread that you couldn't clear vHRC because someone hit hardmode.
My advice? Take a step back from the forum and actually play the game. Farm some mythic items, learn a proper rotation and branch out into other roles. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Tradewind

CompM4s wrote: »

Reality is not everyone gets to win. Its like back in school; not everyone can make the varsity team. It may seem insensitive, but disabled people don’t make varsity either. At least zos makes some great accommodations for disabled players and provides plenty of content they can complete. Just not Vet Hm Trials.

Let's talk a little more seriously, although I bet this topic will be blocked.

Do you agree that all players should pay the same price for the game, expansions, and subscription and then only some can fully enjoy the game?
Players who have difficulties in gameplay should not necessarily be better or equal to players who have no problems. But these players fully deserve the right to achieve the same end goals as any other player. Even Zenimax agrees with this, and that's why they created Oakensoul. But you all reject these players simply because they can't parse or play the way you want them to. They paid the same price as everyone else.

And the worst part is the fact that they are excluded when they pay the same price as everyone else. And no, I'm not saying they sloud pay less or more, I'm saying they pay the same and:

• They deserve same respect from both the community and Zenimax. And no, they don't have it.
  

Katheriah

No, time and effort is also part of the price.

thorwyn

All players pay the same price for the game, plus and new chapters.

And all players get exactly the same thing: access to the game and whatever expansion they are paying for. Nothing more, nothing less. Everything beyond that is the player's choice.
Paying for the game does not automatically include a Godslayer title and it does not include a ticket to happiness and 100% enjoyment of the content. Titles are an achievement you have to earn. It simply IS NOT POSSIBLE to make every aspect of the game accessible for everyone unless they turn it into Candy Crush, at which point they might as well hand out trifecta titles as daily login rewards.

Katheriah

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

"Deserve" has nothing to do with getting difficultachievements. Either you can, or you can't.

What does that even mean to you? Should all players have the same DPS? Why do you have perfect and non-perfect item sets if all those who use the perfect version don't deserve (according to your thoughts) to have more DPS?!

[snip]

[snip]

Look sometimes people can put an enormous amount of effort into something and still be bad at it. If you don't have the dps, if you miss the block and die, if you can't master the hardmode mechanics, it doesn't matter how hard you work or how much time you put into your build or how creative you are-- you don't get the achievement, period.

[snip]

Are you missing the point where multiple people state they used the shared information so it's possible to pinpoint what goes wrong (build, rotation, et cetera) and where OP claims he doesn't need anything like that?

[edited to remove quote]

TaSheen

@Tradewind: you are conflating the entirety of the game's population with a few groups of players doing dungeons, trials etc. The people you have issues with are not ALL the people who play the game.

You should probably take a few deep breaths and give this stuff a rest for a bit. At the moment you're beating your head against a brick wall to no real purpose....

Tradewind

CompM4s wrote: »

But here is a thread started by you claiming to be 250 CP and getting bullied in Selene's web for having low dps

I was bullied because I had 30k DPS with a 2bar HA build, while the other guy, who had CP 2k+ 27k .
He is like many others who cannot parse well, so he tried to harass me about how bad I was, etc...

CompM4s wrote: »

also claimed in this thread that you couldn't clear vHRC because someone hit hardmode.

I tried so hard that day...

CompM4s wrote: »

learn a proper rotation and branch out into other roles.

Of course, I have to learn a proper rotation; otherwise, I will never be as good as others.

CompM4s wrote: »

You are coming across increasingly foolish in your posts here, and your contradictions are starting to make you look outright dishonest.

They don't make me as honorable as you? That's fine, I can live with that.

FantasticFreddie

isadoraisacat wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

"Deserve" has nothing to do with getting difficultachievements. Either you can, or you can't.

What does that even mean to you? Should all players have the same DPS? Why do you have perfect and non-perfect item sets if all those who use the perfect version don't deserve (according to your thoughts) to have more DPS?!

[snip]

[snip]

Look sometimes people can put an enormous amount of effort into something and still be bad at it. If you don't have the dps, if you miss the block and die, if you can't master the hardmode mechanics, it doesn't matter how hard you work or how much time you put into your build or how creative you are-- you don't get the achievement, period.

[snip]

Helping people reach their full potential is VASTLY made easier by.... access to their damage and build.
Which is EXACTLY what OP takes issue with.

And yes, I do help people get better. I've run multiple trainer and beginner groups, helped people farmed mythics, bought gear runs for specific items, worked with their settings to find a UI setup that worked best for them, screen shared myself parsing, etc etc etc.
Some of them improved and went on to get trifectas!
And some of them simply cannot play at that level, be it nerves or age or disability. And some people are too stubborn and set in their ways to be helped in the first place. It is what it is.

[edited to remove quote]

Tradewind

TaSheen wrote: »

@Tradewind: you are conflating the entirety of the game's population with a few groups of players doing dungeons, trials etc. The people you have issues with are not ALL the people who play the game.

You should probably take a few deep breaths and give this stuff a rest for a bit. At the moment you're beating your head against a brick wall to no real purpose....

I have expressed this before, but I believe it is worth repeating.
Perhaps I have had the privilege of being part of some of the best Discord groups, where many top-tier elite players reside, and because of this, perhaps I have a unique perspective on what is happening... (but i never did vHRC HM)
However, it could be possible that my observations are flawed, and maybe you might not comprehend what I am trying to convey. Regardless, I have grown tired of the current state of affairs, and I am eager to see changes implemented.

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

But here is a thread started by you claiming to be 250 CP and getting bullied in Selene's web for having low dps

I was bullied because I had 30k DPS with a 2bar HA build, while the other guy, who had CP 2k+ 27k .
He is like many others who cannot parse well, so he tried to harass me about how bad I was, etc...

As stated previously on this thread that has everything to do with bullies being bullies and what they say doesn’t matter. Being attacked like that isn’t a unique experience for HA players. There’s people out there that refuse to accept they’re the problem and will start blaming other people (ever heard of “blame the healer?”).

Tradewind

Soarora wrote: »

As stated previously on this thread that has everything to do with bullies being bullies and what they say doesn’t matter. Being attacked like that isn’t a unique experience for HA players. There’s people out there that refuse to accept they’re the problem and will start blaming other people (ever heard of “blame the healer?”).

Of course, we tend to blame the healer first because if we blame the tank, it could lead to everyone dying.
ps: You never blame DDs, you kick them out.

FantasticFreddie

Soarora wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

But here is a thread started by you claiming to be 250 CP and getting bullied in Selene's web for having low dps

I was bullied because I had 30k DPS with a 2bar HA build, while the other guy, who had CP 2k+ 27k .
He is like many others who cannot parse well, so he tried to harass me about how bad I was, etc...

As stated previously on this thread that has everything to do with bullies being bullies and what they say doesn’t matter. Being attacked like that isn’t a unique experience for HA players. There’s people out there that refuse to accept they’re the problem and will start blaming other people (ever heard of “blame the healer?”).

Tank: gets one shot because they weren't blocking, stood in a puddle of fire and are getting chewed on by dogs
Also tank: "[snip] why did you let me die?!

[edited for profanity bypass]

Katheriah

Tradewind wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

@Tradewind: you are conflating the entirety of the game's population with a few groups of players doing dungeons, trials etc. The people you have issues with are not ALL the people who play the game.

You should probably take a few deep breaths and give this stuff a rest for a bit. At the moment you're beating your head against a brick wall to no real purpose....

I have expressed this before, but I believe it is worth repeating.
Perhaps I have had the privilege of being part of some of the best Discord groups, where many top-tier elite players reside, and because of this, perhaps I have a unique perspective on what is happening... (but i never did vHRC HM)
However, it could be possible that my observations are flawed, and maybe you might not comprehend what I am trying to convey. Regardless, I have grown tired of the current state of affairs, and I am eager to see changes implemented.

Respectfully, if you have 250CP, do 30k DPS but have done several vet trial HM's, and thus were carried in several HM's, you got lucky or someone was trying to teach you.

Tradewind

Katheriah wrote: »

Respectfully, if you have 250CP, do 30k DPS but have done several vet trial HM's, and thus were carried in several HM's, you got lucky or someone was trying to teach you.

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

alcoraptor

This thread is honestly all over the place - I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to say here.

If your point is that DPS sharing should be disabled because some players use it to be toxic, as many people have pointed out above, it is a useful tool that a lot of teams use for non-toxic purposes. Why is it fair to take that away because some people are toxic?
It also wouldn't help - the toxic players will still be toxic, they'll just find other ways. It's easy to see who's doing what level of DPS in a trial or dungeon by watching, and seeing how fast the boss dies.
As a side note, I once got kicked from a trading guild because the GM looked through the listing history and decided I'd not made enough sales that week - is that also discriminatory/toxic, and should we remove the sales history?

If your point is about the upcoming nerf to 1-bar builds, it really isn't all that significant.
I have a 1-bar sorc build (Sergeant/Storm Master) that currently parses at 94k. On the current PTS, that same build parses around 81k.

If your point is about 1 bar builds not being allowed in trial teams, surely that's up to the trial lead? They have the absolute right to decide who runs in the team, as well as which sets and builds are to be used.
There are some pretty relaxed teams out there - I've done plenty of trials with 1 bar builds, some successfully and others not so much.
However - it is absolutely not discrimination if the trial lead says "No 1 bars please", or tells you what build or which sets you need to run and refuses to let you join if you can't run them.

Trials, particularly HM ones, are not just about raw DPS. They're about buffs and debuffs just as much, if not more.
Therefore, a lot of groups optimise the classes and sets they want in the run in order to get the maximum damage and uptime on all of the buffs.
1-bar HA builds are, inherently, selfish. Yes they do pretty consistent damage, but they don't provide any buffs for anyone else in the team - so the team actually ends up with lower net damage overall (unless you run 8x 1-bars).

At the end of the day, some teams are ok with that - and some are not.
The ones that aren't are not being discrimitory - they are stating their requirements to run with them.

thorwyn

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

You seem to be a big fan of alt accounts. ^^

Bithabus

There is no such thing as "dps sharing".

Katheriah

Tradewind wrote: »

Katheriah wrote: »

Respectfully, if you have 250CP, do 30k DPS but have done several vet trial HM's, and thus were carried in several HM's, you got lucky or someone was trying to teach you.

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

I excluded the option of you being an experienced player because of your following question and your lack of understanding of other people's explanation of why why seeing other people's builds and DPS are impactful:

Tradewind wrote: »

does anyone personally gain anything by using two bars or just one?

Experienced players who have actually played their part in good groups, know that everyone has to pull their weight when it comes to bringing the right sets (buffs), their best social behaviour and their practiced rotation to a progression group. Hence the two remaining options: you were carried or someone wanted to teach you.

Tradewind

alcoraptor wrote: »

However - it is absolutely not discrimination if the trial lead says "No 1 bars please", or tells you what build or which sets you need to run and refuses to let you join if you can't run them.

Okay, let's focus on this.

Create the perfect team for, let's say, vRG HM with 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, and 8 DDs.
Make one list, in order, of all the sets each player should use to cover the maximum possible buffs.

I'll give you some help. If you create this "perfect team," two players will have nothing to offer the group. Nothing! So why exclude players with 2 or just one bar?

Do you know how sellers sell vCR HM GH? One player starts the trial dead. Do you know why that's not important at all? Because no one needs them. The best they can offer is DPS, and these guys really don't need them.

When you or any other player replies to me with this information, then I'll return to the topic.

FantasticFreddie

thorwyn wrote: »

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

You seem to be a big fan of alt accounts. ^^

Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If that nerf happens, it won't be because players complained.

It'll be because the Devs are closely monitoring how prevalent HA builds perform, and decided they were overperforming compared to how the Devs want them to perform.

Why is it so hard to believe that ZOS uses the actual combat data they have access to from all the trial runs across the player base to decide whether HA builds need a nerf or not?

• Why is it so hard to believe that HA users are being penalized because of low DPS in 2 bars?
• Why is it so hard to understand that many players simply can't parse 110k with 2 bars due to disabilities or any other reason?
• Why do so many players think that anyone who can't parse 120k doesn't deserve things like Godslayer? It's a hard and top-tier achievement, yes, but why don't some players deserve to complete it with 1-bar builds if they simply can't parse with 2 bars? All players pay the same price for the game, plus and new chapters.

This is Elder Scrolls Online, a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. "multiplayer".

One more time. DPS sharing does nothing better then promote discrimination between players.

Because ZOS clearly said that HA builds were being nerfed because they were approaching high end 2-bar builds or in rare cases outperforming them, not that they were being nerfed because of low DPS 2-bar builds.

If you don't believe ZOS, just say so.

As for the rest, we'll just use the hypothetical 110k DPS check for a bit.

If there's content that the Devs designed with a DPS check where players need to do 110k DPS or else they fail, and a player can't do 110k DPS, then it doesn't matter WHY they can't do it. They'll fail.

It could be disability, build, rotation, laziness, whatever. If the Devs required 110k DPS to pass the encounter, anything less for any reason will fail.

DPS sharing allows guilds to determine if the group can theoretically meet the DPS checks before they roll into the trial and either pass or waste their time failing. If the guild didn't have DPS sharing, and they brought players who couldn't pass the 110k DPS check, they'd just fail.

So you're calling down discrimination on Guilds for the fact that so few players meet the requirements for an achievement like Godslayer instead of realizing that it's the Devs' design choices that created those requirements. The Devs picked requirements that very few players can meet intentionally, you know? The Devs themselves made the pass/fail conditions. Guilds are obviously going to exclude those who fail, regardless of the reason why.

And moreover, you're acting rather entitled to a spot in a Godslayer prog group. These are not public services, you know? They are not in fact obligated to take on everyone who meets the min requirements for Godslayer. Yes, I paid the same price for ESO as a Godslayer, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to one of the twelve spots in their prog group.

Tradewind

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

You seem to be a big fan of alt accounts. ^^

Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that.

If I recall correctly, I have 4 game accounts and I switch from one to the other when I need to for different reasons.

Zastrix

Tradewind wrote: »

I'll give you some help. If you create this "perfect team," two players will have nothing to offer the group. Nothing! So why exclude players with 2 or just one bar?

Mate if I had a perfect team where everyone was focusing to provide all of the buffs for maximum damage, I'd expect maximum damage. Not for 2 DDs to act like they're privileged to play 1bar builds. Everyone is giving their best and unless you are not, get out of the group.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

TaSheen

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Or perhaps this account with 250 CPoints is not my main account?

You seem to be a big fan of alt accounts. ^^

Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that.

Well, I'm a big fan of alt accounts too - currently have 3, play both PC megaservers, all are CP of various levels, from just under 1 k down to the newest on PC EU with just under 260 k. And I have tons of characters, because I'm an altoholic of course.

But I don't really care about the whole 1 bar HA thing, or the "shared DPS" nonsense, because I just solo - my mains (except for one) use Oakensoul with the bar setup with class skills and a weapon spammable - I'm not about to ask people to group with 750+ mega-ping.... And I got past wanting to do endgame stuff back in WoW and RIFT.

I don't see the minor nerf incoming as insurmountable. Just like when U35 dropped I was a little disturbed to begin with, but with a few gear tweaks and Oakensoul I'm actually doing better than prior to U35 when it comes to combat. So.... I just don't get the angst.

I don't use HA because I've never found HA fun. Yeah, I know - each to her own!