What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

danno8

kringled_1 wrote: »

Literally there is absolutely no way for any addon to see what gear someone else has equipped. Full stop. Noone saw you were using oakensoul via an addon. It's possible if they had a log running and went to analyze it live, but I've never seen anyone do that either for a random dungeon. Its far easier to guess that you were running the ring because you never ever bar swapped.

I don't remember if base game can see buffs when you look at someone but with any buff tracker addon you can see the buffs of other players.

Oakensoul would be obvious due to the huge line of buffs you get.

SeveN085

kringled_1 wrote: »

Literally there is absolutely no way for any addon to see what gear someone else has equipped. Full stop. Noone saw you were using oakensoul via an addon. It's possible if they had a log running and went to analyze it live, but I've never seen anyone do that either for a random dungeon. Its far easier to gue
ss that you were running the ring because you never ever bar swapped.

You can't see the gear, but some UI addons can show you buffs/debuffs of the target of your crosshair. Oaken users are easily noticeable with it because they will look like this :



Idk what it depends on, but sometimes it shows only a couple of those buffs(most of the time actually) :


Funny stuff, with those addons you can see that literally every second person in crag is now oaken user

peacenote

@VaranisArano - very awesome post. Not quoting it because it takes up so much space in my window when typing out my own reply.

First off, I'm going to say something very shocking. There are other roles to play than DPS. BOOM! Wow, I know, it's difficult to comprehend.

If someone finds themselves in a situation, be it because of disability, lack of skills, lack of enjoyment of parsing, or substandard network/computer, where they can't pull enough DPS to regularly be included in the groups they want to join, because of damage requirements, they have another option, even beyond seeking out other guilds which do not have these requirements - they can take up tanking and/or healing. Instead of blaming the DPS meters for being excluded, do something about it. I find it completely ridiculous that this topic is so narrow, boiled down to "pros and cons of DPS meters," when in reality it is a case which is being built against DPS meters due to exclusion. Can't DPS? Do something else!!!

I can speak strongly about this because I am in this situation. I mostly heal, although I have many characters covering all roles. I greatly dislike parsing and I have a repetitive stress injury which keeps me from having my DPS characters as my primary role. Once, I tried to make a werewolf light attack build when they were buffed, since I love werewolves, so I thought it would be fun. After 30 minutes I had to stop playing for the rest of the weekend, because it HURT... back to healing it was, for me. Also, I have taken HA build sorcs into all kinds of content pre and post Oakensoul. I can honestly say that not once have I been not welcomed, or was I ever bullied or kicked out of a group, so while I don't doubt that the OP's experiences aren't as described, I can vouch, having been around for nine years, that they are not universal.

Second, to answer the question of what if DPS sharing was disabled. I have two answers to this question.

1: For many folks, the game would become less fun. That includes me. I always, always, ALWAYS have my DPS sharing on, whether I am tanking, healing, or playing a DPS role. So do my friends.

I have a dungeon group where we are working through all of the hard achievements and we have so much fun with it. Things like... when we are repeating a dungeon because we keep wiping on a no death, we'll find the add pull that allows the highest amount of damage logged in that dungeon, due to the position and number of adds, and try to get that number higher each time. Our two damage dealers compete in a fun way to see who is on top. I will put DPS abilities on my back bar for trash and tease them if I "win" a pull. Sometimes we have wipes where only the tank stays alive and he does 3k damage and we joke about how impressive it is. Joking around about the numbers make the play sessions more fun and trust me, it is not toxic and no one is in any danger of getting excluded or kicked.

I actually put this reason first because this is a game, and it is about having fun, and sometimes people forget that we all have fun in different ways. I know that it isn't fun to be excluded or feel like you are being targeted, but the solution isn't always to take away something that many other people enjoy because that's actually kind of a selfish view point. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean others don't. Maybe there is another solution besides "take it away from EVERYONE." (In fact, I've mentioned two already in this post.)

Plus, the cause isn't the tools. The cause is people. Human behavior. And there will always be people who go more negative than positive. That's life. Disabling the DPS meters is like trying to put guard rails on the game... like locking your streaming app to the child profile to protect your kids. But this is a game for adults and frankly, as adults, it is more mature to walk away from a situation and move on than it is to demand that the environment bends around you to your will so YOU can have things exactly the way you want. We try to shield children from the world but at some point they are going to have their own streaming apps and access to the adult content. And, to take this analogy a little further, if there is content we don't like on the apps, we don't demand that it is removed. Instead, we don't watch it.

2: Less groups would run and clear content. This is a more tangible outcome and I will explain.

Trick question: What's the hardest role to find and fill in a trial?

Well, usually a DPS is a pie or mudball toss away. Healers are less common (especially now). But you probably said tank, as they are almost always the hardest to find.

But that's the wrong answer. The right answer: a trial lead.

It is a tough and often thankless job to be a trial lead. I know I couldn't do it. I don't know the content well enough, I don't have enough extra time to coordinate putting a group together, be it on Discord or a pick up group in Crag, and I certainly wouldn't want to deal with all of the people who are ready to be back seat drivers, criticizing my process for filling a group and creating team qualifications.

This, by the way, is another solution for you. Don't like the requirements other groups are putting out there? Go lead your own. Take your HA sorc and start a trial group and lead it and let in whoever you want. In fact, make a whole guild!

But I digress. My point is, there seems to be some underlying assumptions being made that all trial leads who have requirements for DPS are out to "get" the people who can't play a certain way. And that's ridiculous and unfair. The trial leads don't know if someone has a disability, or is a new player, or just likes heavy attacking. And mostly, they don't care about any of that. What they care about is successfully leading a group through content, so they can clear and have fun along the way. And often, the trial lead has specific requirements because they have limited time, which I would think everyone can understand. Again, this is a game, and therefore a hobby. People do it for fun, on the side, in between their real life responsibilities (except for perhaps streamers where it becomes their job). There are different types of trial runs. Training runs, drunken naked runs, progs, farms. If a trial lead has certain requirements, it's usually because there is a certain goal for the run and a certain amount of time available to meet that goal.

DPS sharing (and logs in general) allow trial leads to put together groups more quickly and assess problems more quickly. Take away the DPS sharing, and of the few people out there in the community willing to lead trials (few compared to the rest of us), many of them probably would not have the extra time that would be needed to work around not having those tools. It's an efficiency thing. Not everyone has time to fill a group blindly, with no requirements, and coach everyone up so that they can clear. That's why requirements are used as a substitute.

So first, there would be less groups run, because some trial leaders would probably just stop doing it. Of the ones that were left, they would take longer to diagnose causes of wipes in a group, leading to slower clears, more unsuccessful runs, and therefore less people getting to clear the content overall.

It feels like in all of these threads talking about "gatekeeping," no one ever considers the perspective of the trial lead, or respects this person's time and efforts. It is a big job. If it wasn't, they would be much, much easier to find. Why is it so wrong that some of them have requirements for their teams? They are doing the hard work of running the group! And I again can speak from personal experience, where I often have had large groups of people wanting to raid on a certain night, ready to go, but there was no one available or capable of leading. What's a worse scenario: no trial leaders to run the trials, or a few people excluded from time to time due to DPS requirements of some runs?

The other thing that would happen is that alternate ways of vetting players would become more prevalent, instead, and THOSE ways are also more time consuming. As a healer, no one wants my parse as a requirement for joining groups. They want screenshots of all my gear and clears and sometimes, they want me to perform in a dungeon as a test, where the players deliberately fail to see how I react. This happens with tanks too. Without DPS meters, some groups would resort to this method for letting you into their groups. Take a prospective damage dealer into a dungeon, but everyone purposely does low damage to see how fast things melt with the new recruit. Then, in that scenario, they are also judging your ability to follow instructions, work with mechanics, etc. I have to say... that's a lot more effort and time on your part to get into a group than just parsing. In the scenarios where groups have requirements, it would probably get HARDER to get into those groups, not easier. Be careful what you wish for.

Finally, I'd just like to comment and say that the logic of "console doesn't have these things, so PC shouldn't" is also childish, in my opinion. I am a huge, huge advocate for ZOS bringing popular add-on functionality to console as OOB features (look at my post history), but again it is wrong to take something away from everyone because some folks can't have it. I chose to play PC on purpose and partially it is because I like add-ons. And people running trials may have specifically chosen PC to make it quicker and easier to run trials. Console is a different thing, and as much should be added to those platforms as possible, but taking things away from PC players is just silly and I believe a selfish stance. What's next? Demanding that everyone gets a hardware check and if their PC is "too good" they can't be allowed into the server? I can see an argument to be made for no add-ons in an eSports competition or something like that, but that's it.

Anyway, the TL:DR is: the game would be less fun for many and we would see a reduction in trial runs and trial clears if DPS sharing was removed. However, there are many other options available for players who are being told they can't join a group due to not being able to meet a damage threshold, including choosing a healing or tanking role instead, finding a different group or guild which has different requirements, running their own group or guild, or swapping to console, and none of those options require taking away functionality than many enjoy and use in a positive way to benefit themselves or others in the game today.

Tradewind

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

KiltMaster

People said it before but I'll say it again - if we get rid of DPS sharing, people will still find ways to exclude those with low dps. There are other ways to test and see how much DPS someone is doing that isn't an addon.

Ratzkifal

Tradewind wrote: »

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others. It's used to help groups improve the completion rate of the hardest content.

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

It will literally never be impossible to find another player’s DPS. Even without logs, even without combat dummies, even without combat metrics, even without hodors… how do you think people on console go about DPS measuring? Even if every single way of measuring dps is taken away it’s as simple as timing and watching someone solo a boss, in person or over a stream/video. It’s as simple as “I know I do 90k parse and it feels like this other dps in the dungeon isn’t pulling their weight”. It’s as simple as “that add that person has to solo isn’t dying very quickly”. It’s as simple as “why are they light attacking with a bow”. Disabling DPS sharing would do NOTHING for what you want it to do.

KiltMaster

I would say that some people use DPS meters to discriminate against others - but from what I have seen, that is few and far between.

Mostly, people use DPS meters to help players as well as determine how well they are doing collectively for different fights.


EDIT: should people be toxic towards people because of their DPS? No, of course not. But removing DPS meters won't stop those people from being toxic. They will always find a way.

CP5

It wouldn't though, as long as dps is the job of a dps, how much dps they do will matter. I spent a long time pugging as a pure tank and healer and saw plenty of things during that time. I run a lot of addons, and of them one tracks what percent of the group's dps I am doing. I do this to make sure I'm pulling my weight in content, but when I dps'ed in trials I was always in the bottom third, because the other people practiced their rotations and had well optimized builds.

One time when I was in a dungeon pug on my nightblade healer, running sets that provide my allies with resources and damage, and using skills that only did damage on the side, I was doing 30-40% of the dps in some fights. This was in Moon Hunter Keep, and during the hedge maze boss fight the tank and I were the ones to go into the maze to kill the spriggans, because the dps were focused purely on damaging the boss who was being healed. I don't need an addon telling me the dps of each group member when enemies are getting killed as quickly by me as they are by the buffed damage dealers.

And when I was in trials, knowing my group members did more damage than me, I always did the side objectives during fights, so they could focus more on doing what they do best. I genuinely enjoy doing those things too, but it was about team play there. Dungeons, and especially trials, are group efforts. If someone is not doing what their role is for, they're putting more strain on everyone else.

People are a lot more receptive to someone who is honest than someone who is guarded, they'd rather someone ask questions than to have someone who takes offense when questions are asked, and the mindset that 'I'm fine and everyone else is wrong' makes group play difficult, which is something most raid leads don't have the time to manage, and the 11 other people in the group won't take kindly to their time being poorly spent.

caesarvs

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

orgin_stadia

I would say that dps sharing isn't the problem. The problem is that the game itself doesn't teach or give any meaningful feedback to players on how they are performing and how to improve.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

The main problem, as far as I can tell, is that you think that players shouldn't ever be allowed to discriminate based on DPS, experience, or gear...and ZOS is fine with that so long as guilds and players don't violate the TOS. (A reminder that discriminate is not necessarily a negative word.)

ZOS doesn't allow insults and harassment. You know that because a forum mod popped into your other thread to encourage you to report insults and harassment. If you see/hear it on Discord, report it on Discord too.


Your crusade against DPS sharing tools won't solve your problem for two reasons.

1. Endgame Guilds have valid reasons to discriminate based on DPS, gear, and experience.

2. As we know from Console players prior to the advent of Combat Dummies, you can remove every DPS sharing/parsing tool in ESO and players will still find ways to evaluate and discriminate based on DPS, gear, and experience.

So all you've accomplished is taking away those tools from everyone who uses them constructively.

Tradewind

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this.

Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

I completely agree with you. However, the reason why players with good rotation use this tool to discriminate against others is concerning.

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense.

People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Of course not. They select the best players in rotation, avoid all players with real disabilities and the ones who can't parse better, to complete vSO in 15 minutes. Once again, I can't agree more with you.

But if players with real-life disabilities or players who can't parse complete vSO in 14 minutes with HA builds, good players in rotation ask to nerf the build. And why does all of this happen? Because of DPS sharing!

edit:
I may have not explained my point clearly earlier, it is unacceptable complete vSO or any other trial faster than a 2bars run.
But i will believe that you understand what I am trying to say

Sarannah

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Players like me, who do not like having their privacy invaded, also care about other players seeing their DPS(and other stuff). Unless I specifically share something about my account/character with another player, they have no right knowing about it. Besides privacy and toxicity there are probably even more reasons for not wanting to share DPS.

And for the record, my DPS is terrible... as I always tank in groupcontent.

PS: I'm not using add-ons, so if there is an option to turn off other players seeing my DPS, where is it??

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this.

Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

I completely agree with you. However, the reason why players with good rotation use this tool to discriminate against others is concerning.

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense.

People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Of course not. They select the best players in rotation, avoid all players with real disabilities and the ones who can't parse better, to complete vSO in 15 minutes. Once again, I can't agree more with you.

But if players with real-life disabilities or players who can't parse complete vSO in 14 minutes with HA builds, good players in rotation ask to nerf the build. And why does all of this happen? Because of DPS sharing!

Suprisingly people were also excluded from trials before DPS sharing was a thing. People are also excluded from trials on consoles where DPS sharing was never a thing. Dissapearing of DPS sharing doesn't mean that everyone will be magically invited into every group.

It's actualy the best way to make joining groups even harder for less skilled people because many groups would start requesting some proff of DPS before even inviting someone to the team. Some groups would close themselves to strangers because they wouldn't want to risk taking too many new players into the same run.

Tradewind

Galeriano wrote: »

Suprisingly people were also excluded from trials before DPS sharing was a thing. People are also excluded from trials on consoles where DPS sharing was never a thing. Dissapearing of DPS sharing doesn't mean that everyone will be magically invited into every group.

It's actualy the best way to make joining groups even harder for less skilled people because many groups would start requesting some proff of DPS before even inviting someone to the team. Some groups would close themselves to strangers because they wouldn't want to risk taking too many new players into the same run.[/spoiler]

I understand everyone's perspective and agree with some points, as long as we consider the context.
However, it's clear that players with low DPS won't be selected for certain activities (because DPS sharing). So, why will Zenimax nerf HA builds? These builds are not top-tier and never have been. While I agree they may never become top-tier, it's unfair to nerf the only build that gives some players a chance to participate in certain activities. It's completely unjustified

VaranisArano

Sarannah wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Players like me, who do not like having their privacy invaded, also care about other players seeing their DPS(and other stuff). Unless I specifically share something about my account/character with another player, they have no right knowing about it. Besides privacy and toxicity there are probably even more reasons for not wanting to share DPS.

And for the record, my DPS is terrible... as I always tank in groupcontent.

PS: I'm not using add-ons, so if there is an option to turn off other players seeing my DPS, where is it??

You are anonymous by default in ESO's Encounter Log. As explained in my long comment about DPS sharing tools above, your contributions to the fight have to be recorded (though anonymized) in order for the tool to work as intended for the players who are using it.

You may not like it, but ZOS decided that the ability of players to use Encounter Logging in overland content, world boss fights, dungeons, etc. and get usable data to improve their own performance outweighed your desire to opt out completely. Effectively, we can't veto other players getting usable data when we're involved in the fight, but we'll be anonymized.

Yes, we discussed it at the time that the your DPS was still identifiable if you were the only member of the group to remain anonymous, but ZOS made no changes based on that feedback. Fortunately, there's been next to no reports of players using Encounter Logging to harass anonymous players (at least that I'm aware of.) I'm sure that can be attributed to its main use among endgame Guilds who agree ahead of time that they'll be sharing parses and logs.


As far as other addons go, other players won't see your DPS unless you share it. They see their DPS as a percentage of the group's DPS.

My main tank, Varanis Arano, usually does 6-8k DPS in most dungeon boss fights. If I'm doing 10-20% of the group DPS, I can tell my group's DDs are doing fine. If I'm doing 30-40% of the group DPS...well, to be honest I could already tell from the feel of the fight that things were going slow, so the add-on just puts a number to it. I still find it useful because sometimes it let's me know sooner that I might otherwise notice if I need to drop some of my CC and go into a more damage-focused rotation to make up for a slower group.

In short, its just easier to tell when your groupmates aren't pulling their weight by implication, i.e. the common situation is when one of two DDs says something like "I'm doing 70% of the damage, what's up with that?" However, it's not like removing DPS sharing tools would prevent a toxic group member from getting toxic because it's just not that hard to tell when someone's doing the lion's share of the work, you know?

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this.

Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

I completely agree with you. However, the reason why players with good rotation use this tool to discriminate against others is concerning.

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense.

People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Of course not. They select the best players in rotation, avoid all players with real disabilities and the ones who can't parse better, to complete vSO in 15 minutes. Once again, I can't agree more with you.

But if players with real-life disabilities or players who can't parse complete vSO in 14 minutes with HA builds, good players in rotation ask to nerf the build. And why does all of this happen? Because of DPS sharing!

edit:
I may have not explained my point clearly earlier, it is unacceptable complete vSO or any other trial faster than a 2bars run.

As someone who wants HA nerfed it’s nothing to do with DPS sharing and everything to do with real game performance. Which like… completing vSO in 14 minutes is not DPS sharing. There’s no DPS number here… it’s the length it took to complete the trial…
I don’t specifically care about the number of dps the build does, I care about it’s insane survivability, the behavior of players who use the build, and its viability in that its able to do even trial trifectas to the point that I have seen several good endgamers switch to the build out of laziness (because its an objectively easier build). It’s not healthy for the game to have an easy build at the same level as a harder one. The difficulty should be rewarded. And as for disabilities, no ones forcing you to dps. Healing or tanking would likely be a lot less strain and not inherently less fun.

Sarannah wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Players like me, who do not like having their privacy invaded, also care about other players seeing their DPS(and other stuff). Unless I specifically share something about my account/character with another player, they have no right knowing about it. Besides privacy and toxicity there are probably even more reasons for not wanting to share DPS.

And for the record, my DPS is terrible... as I always tank in groupcontent.

PS: I'm not using add-ons, so if there is an option to turn off other players seeing my DPS, where is it??

The only ways people are seeing your DPS are through inference or through logs. If you have anonymous mode on, your character name and user won’t show in a log. Although someone may be able to find out your dps through either method, they will not remember it was you and if they found out through logs, if it is a pug, they will not be able to even contact you about it. As for inference, that’s just impossible to avoid. Even with absolutely no way of measuring anything people can still use their brains. Your DPS will never be absolutely hidden because it’s what you’re doing. If DPS were absolutely hidden then the game would have to randomize a DPS for you so that you do higher damage than you should and at that point that’s just having a good build.
You cannot control how other people think of you, not in ESO, not in real life. But they won’t remember you, they won’t remember your DPS, they aren’t going to judge you until the end of time. The people who do say something are either jerks (if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all) or trying to help you. That’s all. I wouldn’t stress over it, it’s just one of the facts of life. People will judge you, you have to not care.

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

@Tradewind

None of what you just said addressed any of the points I made re: what harm would be done to ESO if ZOS removed DPS sharing from the API.

ZOS believes that the merits of most players using DPS sharing tools constructively outweigh the problems potentially caused by a few players using them nefariously. I have provided sources to this effect, not hypotheticals.

I also remind you that even on console, ZOS has provided the Combat Dummies that most endgame Guilds use as their standard for comparing parses and has actively adjusted it to better reflect the buffs available in those guild raids. Even without DPS sharing addons, players are still able to share and evaluate their DPS.

Don't blame the tool just because a few fools might be using it to discriminate without cause. Removing DPS sharing tools and Combat Dummies won't solve that problem, while it will harm the many players who use it constructively.

It is correct that Zenimax sees merit in sharing damage information. So much so they made it so the game client will log all damage information for a group. Even though we can be “anonymous” in the logs it’s easy to figure out which player is doing what.

This is something that will not be changing as a lot of work has gone into this effort and it brings a lot of benefit to the game.

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Suprisingly people were also excluded from trials before DPS sharing was a thing. People are also excluded from trials on consoles where DPS sharing was never a thing. Dissapearing of DPS sharing doesn't mean that everyone will be magically invited into every group.

[soiler]It's actualy the best way to make joining groups even harder for less skilled people because many groups would start requesting some proff of DPS before even inviting someone to the team. Some groups would close themselves to strangers because they wouldn't want to risk taking too many new players into the same run.[/soiler]

I understand everyone's perspective and agree with some points, as long as we consider the context.
However, it's clear that players with low DPS won't be selected for certain activities (because DPS sharing). So, why will Zenimax nerf HA builds? These builds are not top-tier and never have been. While I agree they may never become top-tier, it's unfair to nerf the only build that gives some players a chance to participate in certain activities. It's completely unjustified

Players with low DPS will not be taken into certain activities because of low DPS. Even without DPS sharing there would be ways to figure out their DPS and exclude them if there would be some requirements and they wouldn't meet them. You can't force raid leaders to take everyone into their groups no matter what You do. It's their time and since they are group leaders they decide wheter they want to spend it with some people who do lower DPS or not

Zenimax is nerfing HA builds because You can reach similar numbers with 1-2 buttons and close to no practice like other average two bar users are getting after weeks or months of practice. Fact that build is not top tier means only that it wont be used by top tier players who can squeeze way more from other build due to their high mastery and experience. It doesn't mean it won't ruin the balance in low and mid end of the game where simplicity of rotation plays a big role in final outcome.

It's been proven numerous times already that after the nerf people will be able to complete eveyrthing they are able to complete right now.

Nothing is stopping You from making Your own team. With so many people not being taken into these 15 minutes vSO runs You've mentioned earlier You should find plenty of people to join Your team. As a group leader You can even make a rule to turn off DPS sharing during Your raids or kick everyone who is laughing at others for doing less DPS. Win win win scenario.

Amottica

Tradewind wrote: »

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

Before the logging was available raid groups that had DPS requirements required members to use a specific app which allowed them to post their dps.

This was a requirement for those groups. Not optional.

So nothing has changed.

Even with this there are groups out there for all play levels. Of course some will not be clearing the most challenging content but they will be doing content the group is capable of managing.

Find the right guild.

Tradewind

@Galeriano
And why don't all good players in rotations, like you, ignore those who use HA builds and let them become Godslayers with their own groups? What about all the top-tier players who focus on DPS sharing, teach one another by using logs and DPS sharing tools, and let other players play the game and go after Godslayers? We all pay for the game, just like you did. What about that?

You can get Godslayer in 13 minutes? Great. Let others take 29.99 minutes to achieve it. However, you do not have the right to exclude anyone. Zenimax should not allow you to do this.

edit:
Even better, let's ask Zenimax to create another activity like the "Dungeon Finder," but with two additional options: "Only LA/weaving 2-bar players" and "Only 1-bar/Oakensoul players." This would be excellent for players like you. [snip]

[edited for inappropriate content]

kringled_1

Tradewind wrote: »

@Galeriano
And why don't all good players in rotations, like you, ignore those who use HA builds and let them become Godslayers with their own groups? What about all the top-tier players who focus on DPS sharing, teach one another by using logs and DPS sharing tools, and let other players play the game and go after Godslayers? We all pay for the game, just like you did. What about that?

You can get Godslayer in 13 minutes? Great. Let others take 29.99 minutes to achieve it. However, you do not have the right to exclude anyone. Zenimax should not allow you to do this.

This isn't even coherent.
There is no good argument for, and you will never get an effective "I should be able to get into any group whether or not the raid lead wants me there" policy. Which is what it sounds like you want.
As everyone points out, no player actually gatekeeps vet trial content, they can only control their groups. At any time, you have the liberty to find 11 other like minded players and try to put together your own group. Yes, it's a lot of work. Which is why existing raid leads try to manage their groups so that they work well together as a team, and make reasonable progress towards their goals. If you aren't willing to put in that work yourself, and you aren't willing/able to meet the requirements of the raid leads who are willing to do that work, then yes, you're not going to get through it. It's not a "Zenimax allows" thing.

kringled_1

Sarannah wrote: »

caesarvs wrote: »

Only people that don't know how to do good dps complain about this. Use the tools at your disposal to improve, or make groups with like-minded people. Requesting its removal doesn't make any sense. People don't want to spend 2hr for clearing a, lets say, vSO, because they have no clue on how to perform their roles well enough

Players like me, who do not like having their privacy invaded, also care about other players seeing their DPS(and other stuff). Unless I specifically share something about my account/character with another player, they have no right knowing about it. Besides privacy and toxicity there are probably even more reasons for not wanting to share DPS.

And for the record, my DPS is terrible... as I always tank in groupcontent.

PS: I'm not using add-ons, so if there is an option to turn off other players seeing my DPS, where is it??

Just to add to the points made by VaranisArano : if anyone is complaining about your DPS in group content that you're actually tanking, you probably should just ignore everything they say.
Tanking difficult content requires a lot in ESO, but damage is not typically a part of it. Taunting, resource management, positioning, add management, mechanics, buff and debuffs...but not damage.

Tradewind

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

CP5

Galeriano is explicitly saying for you to do just that, to make your own raid, set your own rules, and play the game you like. But if you're trying to have other people, other raid leaders, who already have a major task in organizing everything, change their group to suit your desires without taking into account your impact on the group, the 11 other people aren't obligated to work around that. It isn't the job of random other players to just always help others, it is their choice to be here, and there is no difference between them removing a dps who isn't cooperating from the group and them all leaving the group to reform it without them.

I was in an Arx Corinium run once, the first snake boss coils itself and makes a large aoe that heals itself if it damages players. I was the healer, and the two dps stood in it every time, healing the boss to full. I tried to tell them what was happening, and they didn't listen, and to this day they'd still be there if it wasn't for server maintenance. I left, there wasn't anything more I could do to help them aside from gambling time until they finally listened. Other people aren't obligated to give their time to help others who aren't willing to help their group, and you are entirely in your right to make your own group to do what you want, but that will likely make you understand why raid leaders put out requirements in the first place.

KiltMaster

oh no! A guild has requirements!

Tradewind

KiltMaster wrote: »

oh no! A guild has requirements!

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

I agree with the requirements. If you're bad, you are out; if you can manage yourself, you will be nerfed. Yeah, it makes sense.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here​.

Thank you for your understanding.

TaSheen

I kind of think games like MMOs are quite far outside the "legal" real world definition of discrimination. This is the third MMO I've played, and the raid requirements by guilds and raid leaders aren't that much different from those in WoW and RIFT.

Because there were numerous friends and family that played those two games with me, and because raid slots were hard to come by (especially for me with mega ping) I made my own friends and family guilds just so we could all raid together. For a long time in WoW, I was the tank on my hunter main. I didn't like tanking (and I never heal - ick) and when my nephew finally finished school and took over as tank I was literally in tears with gratitude.

I DPS - that's what's fun for me. In this game, i don't raid - no reason to any more, long over finding any fun in it. If I wanted to raid in ESO, I'd have to con family and friends into playing in order to have a group which didn't mind my high ping and bad reflexes.

It never occurred to me in the other games to request their developers do away with something the devs specifically added (logging programs so raid leads and guild leads could have DPS checks), and it wouldn't occur to me to do so here if I wanted to raid.

It's not real world discrimination, and the only thing you can really do about it is form your own guild or group with your own requirements - or lack thereof.