What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

KiltMaster wrote: »

oh no! A guild has requirements!

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

I agree with the requirements. If you're bad, you are out; if you can manage yourself, you will be nerfed. Yeah, it makes sense.

50k is a really low requirement. Beginner worthy. When I made my first DPS build it was rather bad and I got like 55k. I don't care what build someone's using I don't want to run with a DPS that's doing 5k dps when everyone else is doing 60k. They're not pulling their weight. I don't think you're understanding the problem with HA. It has nothing to do with wanting to harm the people who use it and everything to do with how easy the build is and what it can accomplish. It has nothing to do with the parses and everything to do with trifecta completion. If HA didn't have infinite sustain, wasn't literally 1-3 buttons, didn't have 100% uptimes on buffs including defensive buffs unavailable to traditional dps... and instead there was struggle and skill in keeping buff uptimes due to the slow rotation or something rather then HA would be fine to perform how it is. But how it is now is that you can choose to press 1 button, survive, and heal or you can do a rotation and weave. If you only need 90k DPS to complete the content and you are able to do either build... which one are you doing? The HA build. I am seeing this in endgamers. Heck, I'm seeing runs that require you to run HA oakensoul sorc. HM and even Trifecta runs at that (and not just Asylum Sanctorium). While normally things should not be balanced around the high end, the build has too much potential for how easy it is to the point where it has become the META in some circumstances.

Anyways, if this is really about "don't nerf HA" then don't pin it on DPS sharing. Because the jump you made between "don't discriminate because I don't do enough damage" to "HA is nerfed because it does enough damage" doesn't make any sense.

Tradewind

I need to make this clear. I have guilds, and I have possibly completed the most challenging HM trials and dungeons (although I have not completed some of them yet). I can parse at a high level and I am part of the same Discord groups as many players who are considered elite. However, this is not about me. As I mentioned earlier, you can call me to go anywhere and I will join on PC-EU.
This is not about me. This is about others, and I strongly believe that all forms of discrimination happening in ESO are completely wrong.
Furthermore, when I see players engage in discriminatory behavior, it appears that Zenimax does not take action to prevent it, and in some cases, their actions may even exacerbate the issue.

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

I need to make this clear. I have guilds, and I have possibly completed the most challenging HM trials and dungeons (although I have not completed some of them yet). I can parse at a high level and I am part of the same Discord groups as many players who are considered elite. However, this is not about me. As I mentioned earlier, you can call me to go anywhere and I will join on PC-EU.
This is not about me. This is about others, and I strongly believe that all forms of discrimination happening in ESO are completely wrong.
Furthermore, when I see players engage in discriminatory behavior, it appears that Zenimax does not take action to prevent it, and in some cases, their actions may even exacerbate the issue.

If you bring 2 healers who insist that healers only heal, 2 tanks who have bad taunt uptimes and die a lot, and 9 dps who parse 50k to vDSR HM when all of them have not cleared a single trial or dungeon you are not going to finish that content no matter how long you try. There is no perfect world where anyone can do anything with ease with the skill level and gear they currently have. I have also had PUG dungeon runs fail because the healer wasn't healing enough, the tank was fake, or the DPS was too low and DPS checks were failed no matter what I did to try and get through it. Discrimination is not inherently evil.

Tradewind

Soarora wrote: »

If you bring 2 healers who insist that healers only heal, 2 tanks who have bad taunt uptimes and die a lot, and 9 dps who parse 50k to vDSR HM when all of them have not cleared a single trial or dungeon you are not going to finish that content no matter how long you try. There is no perfect world where anyone can do anything with ease with the skill level and gear they currently have. I have also had PUG dungeon runs fail because the healer wasn't healing enough, the tank was fake, or the DPS was too low and DPS checks were failed no matter what I did to try and get through it. Discrimination is not inherently evil.

However, if you assemble a group of skilled players comprising of 2 nice healers, 2nice tanks, and 5 dd with 2bars and 3 with HA, all of whom know their roles and responsibilities, you can effortlessly conquer Trifecta without any question.
In that group, HA may or may not be the strongest DPS.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is achieving the Trifecta, whereby all twelve players receive the achievement.

edit:
If the 5DD's are infact elite players, every single one of them will have more DPS (min 30k more) than HA in any boss or trash pack

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

Tradewind, I already posted sources saying what value ZOS sees in DPS sharing tools, proving that it does in fact do more than simply discriminate against players. It allows players to understand their own performance and make adjustments as desired. It allows players to theorycraft and evaluate builds with much greater ease than before. Used constructively, DPS sharing tools actually make it easier for players to meet Guild requirements, since it allows them to analyze their own performance and areas where they can improve. These guilds do not merely use parses and logs to exclude players who don't measure up; if they use them for vetting new members, they also use them to finetune their raid nights!

You are ignoring the benefits because you object to Guilds using DPS sharing tools to set requirements for their group activities.

If DPS sharing tools didn't exist (and I remind you, that parse is on the in-game Combat Dummy, no addons needed) then that guild would simply replace that requirement with something else that replicated the effect of a DPS parse.

"Kill Bloodspawn solo in X time" was the old version on Console prior to Combat Dummies.

You may not like it, but ZOS allows guilds to set various requirements within the TOS. "Needs to do more than 50k DPS" is not against the TOS. Players who do less than 50k DPS are not a protected class under the TOS.


Also, uh, you might consider that other trading guild entry in your screenshot. 25k weekly sales or a 5k deposit is also discriminatory against players who can't or won't do that. That too is allowed by ZOS because players who can't or won't do high volume trading or deposits aren't a protected class under the TOS either.

Remove Guild Histories now? After all, that's the tool the Trading Guild is using to discriminate against their members who don't measure up...

This is ridiculous.

Guilds are allowed to set their own rules (within the TOS).

The vast majority of players should be allowed to use the tools ZOS has given us constructively.

VictorDragonslayer

Tradewind wrote: »

I need to make this clear. I have guilds, and I have possibly completed the most challenging HM trials and dungeons (although I have not completed some of them yet). I can parse at a high level and I am part of the same Discord groups as many players who are considered elite. However, this is not about me. As I mentioned earlier, you can call me to go anywhere and I will join on PC-EU.
This is not about me. This is about others, and I strongly believe that all forms of discrimination happening in ESO are completely wrong.
Furthermore, when I see players engage in discriminatory behavior, it appears that Zenimax does not take action to prevent it, and in some cases, their actions may even exacerbate the issue.

Players are not equal, therefore raid leads prefer to take stronger ones, especially for vDSR HM. But let's imagine, that all players are equal - their performance is absolutely identical. Guess what will happen? You can still be replaced anytime, because the group won't lose anything. This mind experiment shows that something is missing in the equation. That something is a reason why other players would want to play with you. Ask yourself: why others should play with you?

Tradewind

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

Tradewind, I already posted sources saying what value ZOS sees in DPS sharing tools, proving that it does in fact do more than simply discriminate against players. It allows players to understand their own performance and make adjustments as desired. It allows players to theorycraft and evaluate builds with much greater ease than before. Used constructively, DPS sharing tools actually make it easier for players to meet Guild requirements, since it allows them to analyze their own performance and areas where they can improve. These guilds do not merely use parses and logs to exclude players who don't measure up; if they use them for vetting new members, they also use them to finetune their raid nights!

You are ignoring the benefits because you object to Guilds using DPS sharing tools to set requirements for their group activities.

If DPS sharing tools didn't exist (and I remind you, that parse is on the in-game Combat Dummy, no addons needed) then that guild would simply replace that requirement with something else that replicated the effect of a DPS parse.

"Kill Bloodspawn solo in X time" was the old version on Console prior to Combat Dummies.

You may not like it, but ZOS allows guilds to set various requirements within the TOS. "Needs to do more than 50k DPS" is not against the TOS. Players who do less than 50k DPS are not a protected class under the TOS.


Also, uh, you might consider that other trading guild entry in your screenshot. 25k weekly sales or a 5k deposit is also discriminatory against players who can't or won't do that. That too is allowed by ZOS because players who can't or won't do high volume trading or deposits aren't a protected class under the TOS either.

Remove Guild Histories now? After all, that's the tool the Trading Guild is using to discriminate against their members who don't measure up...

This is ridiculous.

Guilds are allowed to set their own rules (within the TOS).

The vast majority of players should be allowed to use the tools ZOS has given us constructively.

Honestly, I may (i really don't know) have exaggerated on that point. I apologize to everyone for that. The fact that some players are rejected for either being bad or nerfed for being not-so-good confuses me a lot.
The best thing to do is to wait and see what happens when the patch comes out and what Zenimax's response to the problems will be. We'll see! However, my decision is made. Any change that further harms those players who actually need it more will lead to my withdrawal from the game without a doubt.

Moderator, If I am allowed to request the topic to be closed, you may choose to close this topic or not. I have nothing more to say, and the replies from other players do not change my opinion about Sharing DPS. This function do nothing better then discriminate players.

Northwold

I don't think it's a question of ZOS "disabling" DPS info sharing. There is no such sharing as far as I understand it in the base game. But addons can work it out, after a fashion.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

Tradewind, I already posted sources saying what value ZOS sees in DPS sharing tools, proving that it does in fact do more than simply discriminate against players. It allows players to understand their own performance and make adjustments as desired. It allows players to theorycraft and evaluate builds with much greater ease than before. Used constructively, DPS sharing tools actually make it easier for players to meet Guild requirements, since it allows them to analyze their own performance and areas where they can improve. These guilds do not merely use parses and logs to exclude players who don't measure up; if they use them for vetting new members, they also use them to finetune their raid nights!

You are ignoring the benefits because you object to Guilds using DPS sharing tools to set requirements for their group activities.

If DPS sharing tools didn't exist (and I remind you, that parse is on the in-game Combat Dummy, no addons needed) then that guild would simply replace that requirement with something else that replicated the effect of a DPS parse.

"Kill Bloodspawn solo in X time" was the old version on Console prior to Combat Dummies.

You may not like it, but ZOS allows guilds to set various requirements within the TOS. "Needs to do more than 50k DPS" is not against the TOS. Players who do less than 50k DPS are not a protected class under the TOS.


Also, uh, you might consider that other trading guild entry in your screenshot. 25k weekly sales or a 5k deposit is also discriminatory against players who can't or won't do that. That too is allowed by ZOS because players who can't or won't do high volume trading or deposits aren't a protected class under the TOS either.

Remove Guild Histories now? After all, that's the tool the Trading Guild is using to discriminate against their members who don't measure up...

This is ridiculous.

Guilds are allowed to set their own rules (within the TOS).

The vast majority of players should be allowed to use the tools ZOS has given us constructively.

Honestly, I may (i really don't know) have exaggerated on that point. I apologize to everyone for that. The fact that some players are rejected for either being bad or nerfed for being not-so-good confuses me a lot.
The best thing to do is to wait and see what happens when the patch comes out and what Zenimax's response to the problems will be. We'll see! However, my decision is made. Any change that further harms those players who actually need it more will lead to my withdrawal from the game without a doubt.

Moderator, you may choose to close this topic or not. I have nothing more to say, and the replies from other players do not change my opinion on Sharing DPS is nothing more than a discriminatory tool.

Well, I'm glad that you've thought about it. I think we've all been confused at times as to why ZOS nerfs stuff we think is necessary and needs buffs or buffs stuff that we think is overused and overperforming. I'm sure most people can think of personal examples from updates past.

While we didn't agree in the end, it's been a fun discussion about the benefits and downsides of DPS sharing tools. Plus, I got to collate all my sources about DPS sharing tools into one comment for easy future reference, so I appreciate that.

Have a great day!

UNSeki

Tradewind wrote: »

UNSeki wrote: »

Also, I disagree that people don't need to know about your disability, if it's going to affect the group

Is there anything else you need to know about a player's life?

UNSeki wrote: »

Thus, it's perfectly in order that trifecta/HM groups require DPS shares.

This is what I need to understand: why?

UNSeki wrote: »

Unfortunately, you might have to do a little more work looking for the right guild to play with, or at least have a friend who can carry you with great DPS if that's needed, while you try to provide more support.

Now they have to ask for pity as well?

UNSeki wrote: »

Honestly, I believe most people would be at least a little more understanding if you immediately told them "disabled person here, but I'm doing my best". I imagine it's not nice to go around saying it, but it can be very important at times.

No, you cannot imagine how bad it is, and I cannot imagine it either. However, you and I can imagine how good it would be if we didn't need to talk about it.

UNSeki wrote: »

P.S.: you don't need to tell everyone in the group, just the raid leader/guild master.

Again? Is there anything else you think we should discuss about players lives?

I'm trying to understand the need for DPS sharing between players. And you belive you really need to know if someone has real-life disabilities or not? I don't believe that's fair.

The truth, once again, is that you only need to know if you can reject or avoid someone based on their DPS.

I've already explained that the group needs to be aware of how they are performing if they are to complete a veteran trial or are pushing score. If the group cannot perform well enough because of a single individual, then it makes sense that they would reject that individual, or at the very least hold that individual back until they improve. However, this is not the case for most runs and most groups in this game. There is a minimal percentage of players doing this kind of content and sweating so hard, so you're making the problem sound much more pervasive than it really is.

Not talking about things has never been a solution to anything.

Tradewind wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

Why? Because the eleven other people in the vKA HM prog team don't want to, and shouldn't have to, waste their time with people who can not carry their own weight in the trail

Finally, someone has spoken the truth of what's happening. Thank you.

So, according to your words, people with disabilities or imperfect rotations cannot join a team because the team doesn't want to carry them. I completely agree. That's why these players can use Oakensoul+HA builds, which will make them perfectly fine in any trial. The team won't have to carry them.

However, even with these builds, progression teams often do not allow them to join, even though they would be 100% fine everywhere.

What I don't understand is why Zenimax is planning on nerfing these builds. After the nerf, these players will not be able to participate because no one wants to carry a "dead weight". I completely agree with you that no one likes low DPS players.

After the nerf that Zenimax is planning, these players will have even lower DPS. And as you say, and I agree, no one likes low DPS, so they will be avoided and rejected. All of this is because Zenimax allows DPS sharing.

No one really cares what you are doing or if you are disabled if you're running an Oakensoul heavy attack build. I don't think the nerf changed that. I do agree that heavy attack builds are a good thing for accessibility that should be closely watched.

No one needs DPS. The only thing this function does is reject players and penalize them. Nothing more. Until now, no one has replied with anything other than 'DPS sharing equals rejection/avoidance.

This is just false in respect to how the game is, so I'll just take it as a critique of the combat system as a whole, which is probably what you intended. Fair enough, it's a point of view.

But the premise of this thread is still false. DPS does matter, and we need it to clear content. Removing the ability to share DPS would thus not be productive for the players.

virtus753

Tradewind wrote: »

I've read the entire topic and haven't seen a clear answer to the question:
how bad it would be to the game if Zenimax completely removed DPS sharing.

Please don’t lose sight of the full impact of this question. As several people have already explained, there is simply no way to “turn off” dps sharing alone. It doesn’t matter whether we think there should be a “dps sharing” switch for ZOS to turn on or off. It just doesn’t exist due to the way the game works.

In addition to removing logs and dummy parses printed to chat, ZOS would have to disable a huge amount of functionality beyond what you’re concerned about. ZOS can't take live dps sharing away without taking a lot of other combat and non-combat stuff that is only made possible through the same API. We wouldn’t be able to share any data (such as the state of our ultimates), see how far we are from different targets, block our own casts (e.g. Perfect Weave or synergy blockers), block interactions in general (like not stealing owned items or taking bugs in front of Mirri…), and a long list of other things that rely on map pings, whether combat-related or not.

You have a problem with how people use one part of the information the map ping API allows us to see (on an opt-in basis). But that doesn’t warrant disabling all that functionality for everyone who has access to add-ons, especially when shutting all that down wouldn’t actually change the behaviors you find problematic.

ZOS didn’t even want to take all that away when an add-on author used the API to implement a feature where the raid lead could literally remotely control group members’ skills, in clear violation of the ToS. Had the author not removed the feature, we might well have seen exactly what we’d be losing in losing all of the MapPings functions. But ZOS wasn’t willing to go there even for a case like that, and that should speak volumes about how bad it would be.

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

UNSeki wrote: »

Also, I disagree that people don't need to know about your disability, if it's going to affect the group

Is there anything else you need to know about a player's life?

UNSeki wrote: »

Thus, it's perfectly in order that trifecta/HM groups require DPS shares.

This is what I need to understand: why?

UNSeki wrote: »

Unfortunately, you might have to do a little more work looking for the right guild to play with, or at least have a friend who can carry you with great DPS if that's needed, while you try to provide more support.

Now they have to ask for pity as well?

UNSeki wrote: »

Honestly, I believe most people would be at least a little more understanding if you immediately told them "disabled person here, but I'm doing my best". I imagine it's not nice to go around saying it, but it can be very important at times.

No, you cannot imagine how bad it is, and I cannot imagine it either. However, you and I can imagine how good it would be if we didn't need to talk about it.

UNSeki wrote: »

P.S.: you don't need to tell everyone in the group, just the raid leader/guild master.

Again? Is there anything else you think we should discuss about players lives?

I'm trying to understand the need for DPS sharing between players. And you belive you really need to know if someone has real-life disabilities or not? I don't believe that's fair.

The truth, once again, is that you only need to know if you can reject or avoid someone based on their DPS.

Why is your dps so low?

If it's because of a physical/visual disability, it's unlikely you are at good at mechs as you claim, I actually DO have 2 disabled players on my team. One plays heavy attack sorc to negate the need for light attack weaving, the other I stick on support sets so he has a ready made reason to never do visually demanding mechanics.

Disabilities can be worked around with communication and creativity. No one else on the team knows about these players limitations and they don't need to know because their disabilities are being managed in a way that does not negatively impact the teams progress

What you want is for people to cripple their own progress because YOU don't want to own up to sandbagging the group. You can use all the flowery language you want, but YOU don't want to change the way you play, or work with your team.
The fair question to ask yourself is: "If all 12 people in the group were playing at my level, would we clear this content I want to do?"

If the answer is yes, make your own team! I'm sure if you make a group with no minimum requirements, no parses, and no logs, you'll find all kinds of like-minded people.

And if you don't want to do that, be honest about why not.

Tradewind

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Why is your dps so low?

If it's because of a physical/visual disability, it's unlikely you are at good at mechs as you claim, I actually DO have 2 disabled players on my team. One plays heavy attack sorc to negate the need for light attack weaving, the other I stick on support sets so he has a ready made reason to never do visually demanding mechanics.

Disabilities can be worked around with communication and creativity. No one else on the team knows about these players limitations and they don't need to know because their disabilities are being managed in a way that does not negatively impact the teams progress

What you want is for people to cripple their own progress because YOU don't want to own up to sandbagging the group. You can use all the flowery language you want, but YOU don't want to change the way you play, or work with your team.
The fair question to ask yourself is: "If all 12 people in the group were playing at my level, would we clear this content I want to do?"

If the answer is yes, make your own team! I'm sure if you make a group with no minimum requirements, no parses, and no logs, you'll find all kinds of like-minded people.

And if you don't want to do that, be honest about why not.

• Maybe because I feel kind of guilty for ...being not-so-bad!
• Maybe I'm one of those elite HA players who recognize that HA is indeed close to elite 2bar players, but even so, we're still far behind. And because a very restricted number of players, all HA users will pay the price.
• Maybe I understand better than many others, if you want to do competitive DPS vs Pro elite players with 2bars, you really need to press more than one button. Even so, you'll stay far behind.
• Maybe my good intentions and involvement in all of this, led Zenimax to take a promising aspect and transform it into something bad. I'm talking about nerfing HA.

edit:
Don't compare any HA builds/players with 2Bar players who can execute a 100% perfect rotation. They deserve more respect because there is no comparison between them.

Jamie_Aubrey

I wouldn't care, my DPS is trash anyway

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Why is your dps so low?

If it's because of a physical/visual disability, it's unlikely you are at good at mechs as you claim, I actually DO have 2 disabled players on my team. One plays heavy attack sorc to negate the need for light attack weaving, the other I stick on support sets so he has a ready made reason to never do visually demanding mechanics.

Disabilities can be worked around with communication and creativity. No one else on the team knows about these players limitations and they don't need to know because their disabilities are being managed in a way that does not negatively impact the teams progress

What you want is for people to cripple their own progress because YOU don't want to own up to sandbagging the group. You can use all the flowery language you want, but YOU don't want to change the way you play, or work with your team.
The fair question to ask yourself is: "If all 12 people in the group were playing at my level, would we clear this content I want to do?"

If the answer is yes, make your own team! I'm sure if you make a group with no minimum requirements, no parses, and no logs, you'll find all kinds of like-minded people.

And if you don't want to do that, be honest about why not.

• Maybe because I feel kind of guilty for ...being not-so-bad!
• Maybe I'm one of those elite HA players who recognize that HA is indeed close to elite 2bar players, but even so, we're still far behind. And because a very restricted number of players, all HA users will pay the price.
• Maybe I understand better than many others, if you want to do competitive DPS vs Pro elite players with 2bars, you really need to press more than one button. Even so, you'll stay far behind.
• Maybe my good intentions and involvement in all of this, led Zenimax to take a promising aspect and transform it into something bad. I'm talking about nerfing HA.

edit:
Don't compare any HA builds/players with 2Bar players who can execute a 100% perfect rotation. They deserve more respect because there is no comparison between them.

So.... what you are saying is.... you DO care about how much damage a player can do?

Tradewind

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

So.... what you are saying is.... you DO care about how much damage a player can do?

If they are reject, bully, or do whatever you want to call it, because of low DPS? Yes. I really care about them.

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

So.... what you are saying is.... you DO care about how much damage a player can do?

If they are reject, bully, or do whatever you want to call it, because of low DPS? Yes. I really care about them.

Well for one, YOU are talking down about HA builds.
For another, none of your arguments about not starting your own groups make any sense. If you don't track dps, how will the rest of your team know how much better you are than they are?
What does it matter about "competitive dps"? Your argument is we shouldn't have any way to track or know dps, so what does it matter? Isn't knowing mechanics the important thing?
How would anyone know your involvement with heavy attack builds if you aren't logging or asking for parses?
It sure does sound like you wouldn't want a bunch of HA peeps on your team, saying they aren't as good and are just making excuses.

Put your money where your mouth is. Make your own team, with 0 dps requirements, logs, parse checks, etc.

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

Wait, You are saying that setting requirement of 50k DPS on 21M trial dummy is a discrimination? it's actually extremly welcoming requirement. You can basically translate it as "if You have 160 CP and some 5 piece armor sets You can join us" because this is what You need to get 50k on a trial dummy.

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

I need to make this clear. I have guilds, and I have possibly completed the most challenging HM trials and dungeons (although I have not completed some of them yet). I can parse at a high level and I am part of the same Discord groups as many players who are considered elite. However, this is not about me. As I mentioned earlier, you can call me to go anywhere and I will join on PC-EU.
This is not about me. This is about others, and I strongly believe that all forms of discrimination happening in ESO are completely wrong.
Furthermore, when I see players engage in discriminatory behavior, it appears that Zenimax does not take action to prevent it, and in some cases, their actions may even exacerbate the issue.

Thing is that not letting people invite whoever they want and advocating to remove some informations from the game just to influence their decisionmaking is a form of discrimination. You discriminate their freedom of choice. People have right to invite anyone they want and create any DPS requirements they want. It's their playtime and they have right to spend it how they want to.

So You are fighting with discrimination by trying to discriminate others...

Aislinna

Tradewind wrote: »

Honestly, I may (i really don't know) have exaggerated on that point. I apologize to everyone for that. The fact that some players are rejected for either being bad or nerfed for being not-so-good confuses me a lot.
The best thing to do is to wait and see what happens when the patch comes out and what Zenimax's response to the problems will be. We'll see! However, my decision is made. Any change that further harms those players who actually need it more will lead to my withdrawal from the game without a doubt.

Why quit the game rather then be the solution to the problem?

You've said you have 90k DPS, you know the mechanics, have HM clears and feel bad for low DPS players, so why not form your own trial runs and get the clears for the players you feel bad for? As the leader, you would not be required to use any DPS measuring tools at all. Heck, you could even require that everybody be disabled and use a HA build, if that is how you want to run things. You say you're fighting this battle for people like me (disabled with lower dps), but I don't feel this is a battle to be fought. I like knowing my DPS so that I can work on improving.

IMO, stopping perceived injustices requires ACTION and not just complaining and threatening to quit. So, step up rather then quit.

TybaltKaine

I mean, just play a healer or tank. I have ridiculous arthritis in my hands, and still manage to clear most content because I decided to play healer/tank. Not just any healer/tank either, Nightblade Healer and Tank which is considered one of the harder classes to do those roles on. I do them well, I run Oakensoul, I tell my guildies upfront if it is a bad hand night, and no one bothers me over it.

When I do deign to DPS on more relaxed stuff, again, no one cares, because I tell people up front "Hey, I'm having a bad hand night, so I may be a little slower than usual". I run my completely self-made HA build and have a great time, and I don't care at all that a couple of my guildies keep logs and post them later for analysis. It helps me get better within the limits of my abilities.

I feel like plenty of people have made these points, but you continue to move the goalposts whenever someone does so. I've read this whole thread, all 5 pages, and haven't said anything, because most of what I have to say has been said.

At the end of the day, you have to confront whatever it is within that is holding you back from enjoyment and stop blaming others. I'm not trying to come off as rude, I'm just being blunt so that my meaning is not misconstrued.

If you cannot do the DPS required by the people forming the group, don't sign on as DPS, it's really that simple. If you feel that this isn't fair, start your own guild where you don't invoke this rule/idea.

That's all I got.

TaSheen

Sorry, healer/tank == not my idea of fun. I tanked in WoW, hated ever minute of it. Was thrilled when nephew finished school and could take over as tank for my friends and family guild. Loved raiding back then, hated tanking. Not ever doing it again.

Healing? Eww. Again, not my idea of fun. Fun is DD....

Amottica

Tradewind wrote: »

Joining an active and skilled guild is a great way to tackle challenging content and make progress as a team.
Of course, you need to enter our amazing Discord guild, and don't forget, you need to use the same name in Discord as in-game. This is 100% mandatory if you wish to participate and join in our amazing rides. Well... ok... i think!

Yes, Joining a guild is the best way to find players to group with.

However, I have never had a guild require my discord name to be the same as in-game. While guild leadership has every right to set their own requirements, such name requirement is not a big deal since we can set a name specific to that discord server.

Tradewind wrote: »

[*] Are they getting kicked out because they don't have enought DPS? Yes. Because doing around 100k in 2 bars is perfectly acceptable, but doing only 90k in HA is not. There are many players with more DPS than you, and they use both bars. Go learn the rotation\weaving and return when you feel comfortable. PS: Don't forget to send us the parse with 2 bars.

Raiding guilds with goals for their guild will have DPS requirements, and their raid teams may have even higher DPS requirements. Guilds are available for all play levels, and their goals and requirements will differ.

With that being said, no raid guild or raid team with solid leadership cares about the build a player is using as they are meeting the requirements. If that HA build or one bar build does the trick then they will not kick the player because of their build.

Ofc, if that HA or one bar build falls short of the requirements then the player may be removed but it is due to their DPS not meeting the mark, not the build.

The player knows what is required and it is up to them to do what they need to do. The guild has the right to remove a player that is not meeting the requirements and every guild I have been part of has given players help and time to improve.

So there is nothing wrong with any of this.

Amottica

Tradewind wrote: »

The main problem is not Oakensoul. It's all about DPS, kicking, avoiding, making fun, harassment, and all kinds of discrimination allowed by Zenimax. If Zenimax disabled all kinds of DPS sharing and made it impossible for anyone to find other players DPS, all this discrimination would end. If you can't find out how much DPS someone has, you will not harass them because bad rotation.

All players can say anything about DPS sharing, but they cannot say that "DPS sharing is not being used to discriminate against others" because this function does nothing better than promote discrimination.

Zenimax is firm about not permitting discrimination or harassment. If you find instances of this happening in-game report it to Zenimax. Take SS of what is happening and provide that by replying to the email Zenimax will send out after the report is submitted.

If it is merely being removed from a guild because the player does not meet the requirement the DPS requirement of the guild then that is not discrimination as the player knows the requirement and chooses to put in the effort to improve or not.

I recommend that everyone find a guild that they are a good fit for and that meets their needs. There are guilds for all player levels and it is better to find a guild where one's DPS capability fits with the requirements and goals of the guild.

thorwyn

As people have said before, disabling dps sharing via API would not prevent raid leads from requesting a proof of your DPS. So no, it would not give you a free ticket into Godslayer groups if DPS sharing would not exist. Raid groups have requirements. Some groups just have a DPS requirement and don't care what build you are using to get there, some groups outright ban oakensoul builds or 2bar builds, some groups don't care at all. Just find one that suits your play style.

Also, the theory that sharing DPS creates toxicity and discrimination is pretty far fetched. First off, if your DPS is too low for content and the group kicks you in the process, it's not discrimination, it's a logical consequence. Discrimination would be to kick you regardless of your DPS and that has nothing to do with sharing DPS. But I guess in 2023, everyone is obliged to feel discriminated against. Secondly, if sharing DPS would not exist and groups would fail to beat certain content, everyone would blame everyone else and there was no way to prove what exactly went wrong and where exactly the weakness is.

But after 5 pages of more or less pointless discussion, we seem to have established that this tread is just a stealth complaint about the upcoming HA nerfs. Rest assured that the DPS loss will not be that huge, so you will stil be able to pull your numbers, even with hodor enabled.

P.S. Why do I get the impression that OP is another Succuby iteration (this time with google translate skills)?

Sarannah

Reading through this topic shows how far out of reach the highest content is for many players, and how too big the expectation to learn all the game's combat mechanics actually is. At the same time, many players state they are no longer willing to teach others, as it takes too long.

This topic really proves the current game's combat mechanics need to massively change in order for the game to grow. The combat mechanics are too much, and need to become more accessible(without destroying what makes eso's combat so good). Especially when you see how the higher players feel about catch-up mechanics(HA build/oakensoul build/etc) to elevate other's DPS, and ask for those to be removed. Keeping the DPS-gap alive.

INM

Sarannah wrote: »

Reading through this topic shows how far out of reach the highest content is for many players, and how too big the expectation to learn all the game's combat mechanics actually is. At the same time, many players state they are no longer willing to teach others, as it takes too long.

This topic really proves the current game's combat mechanics need to massively change in order for the game to grow. The combat mechanics are too much, and need to become more accessible(without destroying what makes eso's combat so good). Especially when you see how the higher players feel about catch-up mechanics(HA build/oakensoul build/etc) to elevate other's DPS, and ask for those to be removed. Keeping the DPS-gap alive.

Endgame can't be for everyone by definition. You can't expect everyone to designate 8-10 hours per week for bashing their heads against the wall. And the only real way to make it more accessible is to make it easy, but it's not going to be an endgame anymore.
From my experience, many players who expressed their wish to participate in raiding weren't there for raiding itself, but rather for easy rewards and they were fading off after the first serious roadblock when they understood that there won't be any free rides. There is a lot to learn, for sure, but I can't teach someone who doesn't want to work in the first place, I'm not even talking about DPS, some people are simply refusing to "waste their time" on something simple as obtaining certain skills.

UtopianWarrior88

If ZOS was as strongly against discrimination as people claim in this thread, then they would not set up HMs with a firm DPS check.

Oakensoul allows those who cannot do 2-bar rotations to clear vet content rather easily now, why should HMs become available too using this (PB on oakensoul was ridiculous, but we got to remember that those were all good players on 2-bars as well).

DPS sharing is a way to ensure that those joining the group fulfill their role, and seeing that holds each other accountable. Too many bad players try to leech for skins, achievements etc. making it unnecessarily hard on their team mates.

When people have a disability they will most likely seek out a group that is fine with a discrepancy in DPS and will also find that thye're going to be supported there.
For other people, it is still good to remember that: time in -> DPS out, assuming you know what you're doing.

Sarannah

INM wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Reading through this topic shows how far out of reach the highest content is for many players, and how too big the expectation to learn all the game's combat mechanics actually is. At the same time, many players state they are no longer willing to teach others, as it takes too long.

This topic really proves the current game's combat mechanics need to massively change in order for the game to grow. The combat mechanics are too much, and need to become more accessible(without destroying what makes eso's combat so good). Especially when you see how the higher players feel about catch-up mechanics(HA build/oakensoul build/etc) to elevate other's DPS, and ask for those to be removed. Keeping the DPS-gap alive.

Endgame can't be for everyone by definition. You can't expect everyone to designate 8-10 hours per week for bashing their heads against the wall. And the only real way to make it more accessible is to make it easy, but it's not going to be an endgame anymore.
From my experience, many players who expressed their wish to participate in raiding weren't there for raiding itself, but rather for easy rewards and they were fading off after the first serious roadblock when they understood that there won't be any free rides. There is a lot to learn, for sure, but I can't teach someone who doesn't want to work in the first place, I'm not even talking about DPS, some people are simply refusing to "waste their time" on something simple as obtaining certain skills.

I get what you are saying, but the problem is endgame can't be for everyone. While at the same time, MMO's want as many players as they can, to be in that endgame. Making it "easy" isn't the only way to make endgame more accessible though, on this forum many players have posted suggestions: Crutch mechanics, removing combat mechanics, have combat mechanics barely make an impact, etc( I don't agree with some of them).

But as you say, the expectation from players to spend 8-10 hours a week(or more) to learn combat mechanics is unrealistic. Especially since every 3-6 months the game goes through major changes.

That first "roadblock" as you call it, may simply be the first realization from those players that there is too much work attached to their gaming activity. An activity which most players just do for fun.

So in my opinion the endgame needs to be easily accessible, but without destroying the combat system and without making it "easy". But that is on ZOS to figure out.

Amottica

Sarannah wrote: »

Reading through this topic shows how far out of reach the highest content is for many players, and how too big the expectation to learn all the game's combat mechanics actually is. At the same time, many players state they are no longer willing to teach others, as it takes too long.

This topic really proves the current game's combat mechanics need to massively change in order for the game to grow. The combat mechanics are too much, and need to become more accessible(without destroying what makes eso's combat so good). Especially when you see how the higher players feel about catch-up mechanics(HA build/oakensoul build/etc) to elevate other's DPS, and ask for those to be removed. Keeping the DPS-gap alive.

The most challenging content is out of reach to those who do not want to put the effort into it. That is ok as we all have different focuses with our game time.

Zenimax created the normal version of all challenging group content to bring such content into reach for the masses so everyone has the opportunity to see the content. It is a great solution for those who choose to be more casual about the playing.