What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

INM

You know, before dps sharing and logs existed, RL could simply ask everyone to post fight DPS from FTC in chat to see who's slacking. Even more, experienced players can see that you're performing poorly simply by looking at you. People will be parsing Bloodspawn with a secundomer once again if no other option will be available. And look at FF14, there is no API for dps meters (on any other addons as I'm aware), but people still find their way to measure DPS.

If you don't want to share DPS, don't share, it's optional. If you think that people treat you unfairly, think how you treat other 11 people, no-one is obliged to take you in a group just because you're a cool guy. Start your own group at last with your own rules. No-one likes when 11 people are doing their job and one person is waiting to be carried.

Amottica

UNSeki wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

@tomofhyrule, @Dr_Con, @kringled_1
I understand all your points, but none of them really address my question or the topic's motives.
How bad would it be if Zenimax completely disable DPS sharing? How bad will this be for groups or players with real-life disabilities or those who struggle with rotations?

I can tell why it's unfair for those players. Just because they can't execute perfect rotations, they are denied the opportunity to experience the same sense of accomplishment as everyone else who completes challenging content. And the reason they are often excluded is because they are considered 'bad' players and they are considered 'bad' players because they don't have DPS and everyone see that. However, they are not bad players because they lack the same level of skill as others. They are simply not as physically able to perform at the same level and because they are "forced" to share DPS, they are 'bad'.

Honestly, I believe most people would be at least a little more understanding if you immediately told them "disabled person here, but I'm doing my best". I imagine it's not nice to go around saying it, but it can be very important at times.

With good people in a group that is not pushing the leaderboard this does happen. I have played with disabled people over the years and in ESO.

With a deaf healer (whom I healed with) one member of the group would complain because the deaf player did not get into comms which was required. Obviously, it would have been pointless and that player was just being ignorant and intolerant. We let them know their opinion was not welcome in the guild. They chose to shut up as we had a good raiding group.

Played with another player in ESO that had Parkinson's. They learned to make adjustments to make it easier for them to perform their role and do what was needed in the raids. We knew of their condition and no one ever questioned my judgment or complained about the player.

KiltMaster

UNSeki wrote: »

Thus, it's perfectly in order that trifecta/HM groups require DPS shares.

This is what I need to understand: why?

I mean .. not to be blunt, but if someone doing low DPS hold back the group from completing their goal, then it holds back the group.

They shouldn't be toxic about it, but it's just a fact. There are DPS checks in the game and everyone needs to carry their weight. It's just how the content is.


Edit: again that's not a reason to be toxic. I think everyone can be helped to produce great DPS.

Ratzkifal

What even is this discussion. You want to do veteran trials? Then you need the damage to complete it. The most important thing in trials is dealing enough damage, because the more damage you deal, the less time there is for the human players in the trial to make a mistake and wipe. So more damage leads to more success which leads to less time wasted on failed attempts.

There are 12 people in one group - two are tanks (usually), two are healers, eight are damage dealers. Some mechanics require you to break a shield in a certain amount of time or else everyone dies instantly. If the shield has the size X and lasts
t seconds before the group gets oneshot then in order to have a chance to complete the trial you need to deal a total sum of at least X/t damage per second for that thing to break. Divide that by 8 and you get the total damage contribution every damage dealer needs to bring to the table. That is the DPS requirement. If you lower that DPS requirement then you might be able to complete the trial if another dps can compensate for the lack of damage, but you are lost if all 8 of your damage dealers only barely meet that lower requirement. You will be unable to complete that trial.

Blame ZOS for making dps checks their favorite mechanic and making the penalty for not meeting the check a party-oneshot. If that wasn't the case a group with lower DPS could complete these challenges as well, it would just be more work for them. The way it is now many trials are simply impossible to complete with low dps.

Btw, for context, my personal dps record has never been above 68k, so I'm certainly not part of the elite.

Galeriano

Tradewind wrote: »

SickleCider wrote: »

For what it's worth we don't have any of these fancy tools on console and we still find ammunition to bully each other with.

No one can harass, reject, or make jokes about my low DPS due to my real-life disabilities

Noone can harass You that's for sure.

When it comes to making jokes it depends wheter You are fine with it or not.

When it comes to rejecting You people are free to do so. You can't force someone to play with You no matters the reasons.

Tradewind

Aislinna wrote: »

Why? Because the eleven other people in the vKA HM prog team don't want to, and shouldn't have to, waste their time with people who can not carry their own weight in the trail

Finally, someone has spoken the truth of what's happening. Thank you.

So, according to your words, people with disabilities or imperfect rotations cannot join a team because the team doesn't want to carry them. I completely agree. That's why these players can use Oakensoul+HA builds, which will make them perfectly fine in any trial. The team won't have to carry them.

However, even with these builds, progression teams often do not allow them to join, even though they would be 100% fine everywhere.

What I don't understand is why Zenimax is planning on nerfing these builds. After the nerf, these players will not be able to participate because no one wants to carry a "dead weight". I completely agree with you that no one likes low DPS players.

After the nerf that Zenimax is planning, these players will have even lower DPS. And as you say, and I agree, no one likes low DPS, so they will be avoided and rejected. All of this is because Zenimax allows DPS sharing.

No one needs DPS. The only thing this function does is reject players and penalize them. Nothing more. Until now, no one has replied with anything other than 'DPS sharing equals rejection/avoidance.

RealLoveBVB

They made HA-builds for you.

Tradewind

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They made HA-builds for you.

It's amazing for trash, but for boss fights? No, thank you.

KiltMaster

Tradewind wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

No one needs DPS. The only thing this function does is reject players and penalize them. Nothing more. Until now, no one has replied with anything other than 'DPS sharing equals rejection/avoidance.

if no one needs dps why did zos implement content that has DPS checks then

Amottica

KiltMaster wrote: »

UNSeki wrote: »

Thus, it's perfectly in order that trifecta/HM groups require DPS shares.

This is what I need to understand: why?

I mean .. not to be blunt, but if someone doing low DPS hold back the group from completing their goal, then it holds back the group.

They shouldn't be toxic about it, but it's just a fact. There are DPS checks in the game and everyone needs to carry their weight. It's just how the content is.


Edit: again that's not a reason to be toxic. I think everyone can be helped to produce great DPS.

Toxicity is a choice a player makes in how they deal with a situation. Since it has more to do with a person's problem with the person begin toxic rather than a player's substandard performance it is not really the issue outside of someone choosing to play with jerks.

So the real question is, why would anyone want to prevent a group from improving? When the group is repeatedly failing to meet the stated goals they need to know where the weak links are so they can improve as a group.

I was in a raid group of casual players and we were not able to kill a boss. I whispered to a player I knew that I was doing almost 30% of the group's damage. They noted they were doing 25% and the raid leader was doing 20%. That meant the other six players were only doing a collective 25% of the group's damage which is pretty bad.

There was no toxicity but we are able to convince the raid/guild leader that minimum requirements were needed for people to raid with that group. After dictating those requirements we offered help so those players could improve. In the end, the same people were able to clear that content and those players because of much better players. Not leaderboard quality but they could get the job done.

KiltMaster

Dang, sorry that formatting got messed up .. but question still stands - if no one needs DPS why did ZOS implement content that has DPS checks then

Aislinna

Tradewind wrote: »

Aislinna wrote: »

Why? Because the eleven other people in the vKA HM prog team don't want to, and shouldn't have to, waste their time with people who can not carry their own weight in the trail

Finally, someone has spoken the truth of what's happening. Thank you.

So, according to your words, people with disabilities or imperfect rotations cannot join a team because the team doesn't want to carry them. I completely agree. That's why these players can use Oakensoul+HA builds, which will make them perfectly fine in any trial. The team won't have to carry them.

However, even with these builds, progression teams often do not allow them to join, even though they would be 100% fine everywhere.

What I don't understand is why Zenimax is planning on nerfing these builds. After the nerf, these players will not be able to participate because no one wants to carry a "dead weight". I completely agree with you that no one likes low DPS players.

After the nerf that Zenimax is planning, these players will have even lower DPS. And as you say, and I agree, no one likes low DPS, so they will be avoided and rejected. All of this is because Zenimax allows DPS sharing.

No one needs DPS. The only thing this function does is reject players and penalize them. Nothing more.

LOL, no. Not being able to see a person's DPS number will not relieve the group of having to carry "dead weight".

Again, form your own group.
Or pay a carry group to carry you.

KiltMaster

@Amottica exactly - I don't think they should be nixxed from the group, but they should be helped to improve DPS. But until then, completing the content just isn't feasible.

Ragnarok0130

Tradewind wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Uh...there isn't a shared dps API, so the question isn't meaningful.
DPS can be shared via Hodor, which uses map pings to do that. There's no specific API support for this.
CMX you can infer other people's dps from group dps as a whole (which afaik is measured against boss health). Again, no api support.
Logs shares but it's not part of the addon API.

Ok, Whether with or without an API, why doesn't Zenimax solve this problem by disabling DPS sharing? Players don't need to see each other's DPS to understand how to improve their mechanics or why they are dying. Seeing only their own DPS will be enough to determine if it's sufficient or not.

Logs are welcome to help players find areas where they need to improve their mechanics, and they are essential for helping other players as well. However, there isn't even one valid reason to share DPS. Not even one.

What's the point of sharing your amazing 100k DPS if the group wipes because you can't enter the tomb? In vCR, how does sharing DPS help if the group wipes because i didn't swap bars? If people can use logs to understand why the group wiped, then how does sharing DPS help with understanding the mechanics involved, and how does it teach mechanics to others?

You're making a lot of assumptions and blanket statements without providing reasons for your position. What content do you participate in that concerns you so much about others seeing your DPS to gauge your and your group's performance? If you are doing dungeons and trials you should want to know your and other group members' DPS so you can see if you need to improve or if you need to cover a bit for others' DPS shortfalls. If you're in a guild or formal group this can help your lead help you to improve your DPS by working with you outside of the trial or dungeon.

You mentioned tombs, are you running vSS? If you can't enter the tomb for any reason you call for a tomb backup. If I as a healer am failing to sufficiently heal one or both tombs on vSS HM others seeing my HPS and my entire log can help identify an issue with my performance, rotation, build, or gear that can be mitigated thereby helping the group progress instead of being a dead weight holding the group back.

Tradewind

KiltMaster wrote: »

Dang, sorry that formatting got messed up .. but question still stands - if no one needs DPS why did ZOS implement content that has DPS checks then

If everyone in the group enables anonymous mode and no one logs the fight, can you still do that content? I'm not sure about this one, and maybe I'm wrong. After all, maybe we need to share DPS. Which content is that? What dungeon/trial/quest are you talking about? So, console players can't access that content? That's so unfair.

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

KiltMaster wrote: »

Dang, sorry that formatting got messed up .. but question still stands - if no one needs DPS why did ZOS implement content that has DPS checks then

If everyone in the group enables anonymous mode and no one logs the fight, can you still do that content? I'm not sure about this one, and maybe I'm wrong. After all, maybe we need to share DPS. Which content is that? What dungeon/trial/quest are you talking about?

Lots of dungeons and trials have DPS checks. Falgraven final floor is a DPS check, you can’t make healers heal with all their might for 10 minutes. Dreadsail reef 2nd (reef hearts) and 3rd (mages) boss fights have DPS checks. Sunspire last boss portals is a DPS check. Sunspire fire dragon is a dps check (albeit quite a low one). Cloudrest portals is a dps check. Moongrave fane there’s a dps check with a boss’s shield. Graven deep 2nd boss is a dps check, Fang Lair has at least two bosses with dps checks (guy+ghost execute, caluurion execute)… like if you do not meet the dps requirements in all of these you will all flat out die.

Edit: and there’s definitely more, that’s just some of them.

KiltMaster

@Tradewind I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by 'dps checks'

What I mean is content that requires the group to perform a certain amount of DPS in a limited time until it's a group wipe.

Tradewind

@Ragnarok0130, I will play your game.

I'm parsing 90k in HA, and no one selects me only because I play with HA. I have completed many HM Trials, while for others, I try with PUGs because I can't find a prog team to join. No one likes me because I play with HA and only parse 90k, but I know every single HM trial, and I have watched many YouTube tutorials. Can I join your team? Can you help me find one? Remember, I play with HA and parse only 90k.

Will you or your team help me finish the trials that I'm missing? I'm not sure which ones they are, so I think you'll have to help me with all of them The team only need 1 minute to see if I know the mechanics or not, and I can share my DPS if i must.

edit:
Lets skip vCR+3 because that one is done (with 2 bars).But we can go again, of course!

Soarora

Tradewind wrote: »

@Ragnarok0130, I will play your game.

I'm parsing 90k in HA, and no one selects me only because I play with HA. I have completed many HM Trials, while for others, I try with PUGs because I can't find a prog team to join. No one likes me because I play with HA and only parse 90k, but I know every single HM trial, and I have watched many YouTube tutorials. Can I join your team? Can you help me find one? Remember, I play with HA and parse only 90k.

Will you or your team help me finish the trials that I'm missing? I'm not sure which ones they are, so I think you'll have to help me with all of them

If you’ve completed HM trials people are selecting you. PUGs are not so friendly and never will be, decisions should not be based upon pugs, that’s where bullies who get kicked out of guilds roam. 90k is not a low number. 80k isn’t either. 75k is like… minimum for trials, not even for dungeons.

Ragnarok0130

Tradewind wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

What specific sharing are you asking to be disabled? Without that, answering your question isn't meaningful. Most of what I suspect you're experiencing as negative feedback/comments in content is probably much more a result of people inferring your dps, not sharing. And I don't know how that's avoidable except by only doing solo content.

What are you trying to say? Can't Zenimax disable the DPS share function? Of course, they can, unless they don't know how... which would be unfortunate, but not surprising.

• What I'm asking in this topic is to understand why I need to share my DPS with anyone to have the opportunity to join vKA HM prog team. Why? Why do you, me, or any other player, need to know how much damage I do inside a trial or dungeon?

@Tradewind The real answer to this question is one you will inevitably not like. Groups that run veteran trial content, and even more veteran hard mode trial content set base line requirements to join the group whether it's just a gear run or a formal prog group such as minimum champion point level, DPS is X thousand, tanks and healers must have X skills and sets or sometimes even mandate classes for certain roles because those are the minimum requirements to have a solid expectation of clearing the content. When you run group content it is about the communal group experience and not the individual experience so ensuring the group's success comes first before individual desires so basic standards to participate in content are necessary.

Often a group of competent raiders can carry one or a couple of low level or low DPS players but there is a definite limit to how many players can be carried depending on the trial (vRG is a vastly different animal than vAA) and group. Also those who have low DPS are likely starting out in group content and may need to dial in their gear, rotation, and class knowledge in addition to learning other raiding skills such as blocking, roll dodging, LoSing, addons, etc which will be a further hindrance to group progressing if you're progging the floor instead of the boss. The newer players are typically better served in the long run by progressing through the Craglorn trials through HM then starting on the DLC trials in order to learn their class and raiding in a crawl/walk/run format rather than being thrust straight into vKA HM and getting a really bad taste in their mouth for raiding if the group gets frustrated. Nefas' Project Vitality was doing just this before U35 cut it off at the knees. There are still learning trials happening there if you want to try the crawl walk run method over on the ESOU discord. I can also connect you with a group who is new raider friendly if you would like to raid in a very patient environment with copious explanations of mechanics before pulling each boss. DM me if you're interested.

Ratzkifal

Tradewind wrote: »

KiltMaster wrote: »

Dang, sorry that formatting got messed up .. but question still stands - if no one needs DPS why did ZOS implement content that has DPS checks then

If everyone in the group enables anonymous mode and no one logs the fight, can you still do that content? I'm not sure about this one, and maybe I'm wrong. After all, maybe we need to share DPS. Which content is that? What dungeon/trial/quest are you talking about? So, console players can't access that content? That's so unfair.

If everyone in the group enables anonymous mode and no one logs the fight but you somehow keep failing that content and don't know why even though everyone swears on their mom that they did everything right, then you will never be able to complete that trial. If it is logged you can point out the mistakes that one person made and then either they can learn from that or they can't. If they can't, then someone has to leave the group. Either the person who is failing to meet the requirement or someone who does meet the requirement so that someone better can come in to compensate for the person who can't. Why would a raid lead choose the person who can carry their weight to drop out over the person who can't? It's easier to find people who can pull just their weight than people who can pull their weight and then some. Why do you think carry prices are so high?
At the end of the day raid leaders are only human and trying to make successful runs happen.

zaria

As I understand

kringled_1 wrote: »

Uh...there isn't a shared dps API, so the question isn't meaningful.
DPS can be shared via Hodor, which uses map pings to do that. There's no specific API support for this.
CMX you can infer other people's dps from group dps as a whole (which afaik is measured against boss health). Again, no api support.
Logs shares but it's not part of the addon API.

Combat metric only shows group damage on enemies you do damage to. So say in BC2 HM tank will not see group dps if holding the daedrot. But group dps is useful as it show how capable the group is.

danno8

Ratzkifal wrote: »

What even is this discussion.

I can't figure this out either. It think it's a misunderstanding of certain terms, game functions and how some addons work that is confusing the OP.

Tradewind

If for some reason you or anyone feels any kind of shame in inviting me in public (here), please send me a private message and we can talk. I'm really curious to see how many players will help me complete HM trials or why they will not. I'm trying to understand why many of you need the DPS sharing function just to avoid others. But I can make it better. I will gladly join anyone with my HA build and my knowledge of mechanics to see how this will end.

KiltMaster

That's what I was thinking lol ...

kringled_1

Also, if you're telling me that you parse 90k on a HA build, how much of that is from the heavies and how much from abilities? Most strategies for vka HM that I've been a part of end up with players doing a lot of blocking to survive mechanics, and that has a high potential to impact ha builds more than traditional la builds.

Ragnarok0130

Tradewind wrote: »

@Ragnarok0130, I will play your game.

I'm parsing 90k in HA, and no one selects me only because I play with HA. I have completed many HM Trials, while for others, I try with PUGs because I can't find a prog team to join. No one likes me because I play with HA and only parse 90k, but I know every single HM trial, and I have watched many YouTube tutorials. Can I join your team? Can you help me find one? Remember, I play with HA and parse only 90k.

Will you or your team help me finish the trials that I'm missing? I'm not sure which ones they are, so I think you'll have to help me with all of them The team only need 1 minute to see if I know the mechanics or not, and I can share my DPS if i must.

edit:
Lets skip vCR+3 because that one is done (with 2 bars).But we can go again, of course!

@Tradewind I'm not playing a game just stating facts. One bar does hinder you in some trials such as vCR but it's actually a preferred build for DPS in vAS. It's always up to the raid lead to set requirements for their run but I've seen many excellent raid leads not exclude one bar heroes. If your DMs are open I'll send you a message and get you linked up with the correct people.

See you in discord!

Amottica

KiltMaster wrote: »

exactly - I don't think they should be nixxed from the group, but they should be helped to improve DPS. But until then, completing the content just isn't feasible.

I agree with a caveat. I have also known players who had no interest in changing. They liked their build and wanted to stick with it. When a player is unwilling to change or try to improve then they should be replaced. Heck, knew someone in ESO who was doing less than 20k on a test dummy. I offered to get them in touch with the top DD on the server for their class and they responded they were happy with what they are doing now

So unless they are lifelong friends there is no reason for the group to hold themselves back because one person does not want to put in the effort.

We all make choices. Being toxic because someone is not performing or being toxic because a group replaced you is never the answer.

RealLoveBVB

Tradewind wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

They made HA-builds for you.

It's amazing for trash, but for boss fights? No, thank you.

???

Did you miss the past months? Since HA builds came out, it's the easiest time to do triples. You can even pug immortal redeemer with that.

KiltMaster

@Amottica yes, that is a fair point. And honestly that kind of sounds like what's goin on w the OP too IMO ..