More transparency about dmg in dungeon?

Bobby_V_Rockit

Yes, add dps % meter

Facefister wrote: »

What's the legit reason for not having a tool which further helps group composition and gameplay? "Toxicity" and "elitism" are no proper reasons. I want to hear proper reasons why we shouldn't have that.

Because it will lead to a numerically based exclusion of a large portion of the player base based on what is considered “acceptable” as opposed to the current trend of what is “achievable”.

DPS can be quite low and still enough to “achiece” the objective, however, if players place the “acceptable” dps at a much higher scale (likely based on streamer parses), then it is detrimental to the game.

Wifeaggro13

VaranisArano wrote: »

There used to be add-ons that did this. That ability got removed because it was abused by people to be jerks to other players perceived as not pulling their weight. ZOS isn't going to re-enable something that was used for griefing in the past.

People. We're why we cant have nice things.

then maybe devs should reconsider their dumb idea of competitive leaders boards in PVE based on DPS/ Fastest time. All DPS meters really did was help people to find broken Builds and exploit them. unfortunately, zos went down a path in their group dynamics that cannot be undone. truthfully i wish they would have gone with vertical progression and firmer roles . i cannot even pay the game in its current state id rather play a single player online RPG because 95 % of the game is designed that way. and for the MMO part of the game its very very bland and average.

KingMagaw

Don’t know / care

ZOS and transparency dont mix mate.



Additionally, given time like ZOS have done before, they will add the most popular addon's hobbyists have made to the game, most likely stealing the code as well lol

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

KingMagaw wrote: »

ZOS and transparency dont mix mate.



Additionally, given time like ZOS have done before, they will add the most popular addon's hobbyists have made to the game, most likely stealing the code as well lol

Yes, zos do hate transparency. Like what cp affect what dmg.

VaranisArano

No, don’t add meter

Facefister wrote: »

What's the legit reason for not having a tool which further helps group composition and gameplay? "Toxicity" and "elitism" are no proper reasons. I want to hear proper reasons why we shouldn't have that.

The legit reason we dont have that ability anymore is that we lost it because players used it to break the TOS by griefing players because of perceived low DPS.

That's the legit reason ZOS removed this function from the API. You may not like it, but that's how it went down.

KingMagaw

Don’t know / care

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's the legit reason ZOS removed this function from the API. You may not like it, but that's how it went down.

If that was the legit reason (I never seen ZOS say this, please link) - Then it was a stupid change.


Almost any decent trial group runs Damage Share add on, especially when playing with new players or at the minimum has the player post a parse they done on a dummy before joining.


Plenty of players have/are paying for HM VET clears, so linking achievements means nothing. Or they exploited the achievement, cue RAKKHAT.

DPS counters and death counters are used in almost every trial i do/see. The goal to grouping up is mutual benefit, not to carry some tool.

Varana

No, don’t add meter

For vet trials, progression groups, leaderboards, and similar activities, we have addons on PC that allow their results to be shared. If you want to be in such a group, you can and should share your DPS voluntarily. Adding a personal DPS meter to console is a justified request.

This is different for PUGs doing Undaunted dailies and such. For that, the disadvantages of a public DPS meter outweigh the benefits - unless people somehow become nice to each other. I wouldn't hold my breath.

idk

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

Radox0

See the value of it, but if people were griefing other's with it in the past, then fair they removed it.

With Vet dungeon's its pretty apparent to me in a PUG if we are not dealing enough damage and quick observation will usually summarise who may not be pulling their weight. At that point, either leave, or I am sure at the point at which you care about such tool's / utilities, your someone who likely is in guilds / friends, so run with some of them who you know are reliable.

DocFrost72

Don’t know / care

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

So what is the correct threshold of not enough damage? Should you not kick a person who is 10k just because another guy is carrying by doing 50k? Is that fair?

If the requirement to finish the dungeon is 20k dps (group) and you pull 10.1k dps, it is my belief that you are pulling your weight. You may well disagree.

What if the requirement is 60k, would you kick 10k player when someone is doing 50k?

Which dungeon has a 60k group dps check?

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

DocFrost72 wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Chrysa1is wrote: »

Adding this would introduce more toxicity. If you are in a group with elitists, they will kick you for not doing what they deem as enough damage.

So what is the correct threshold of not enough damage? Should you not kick a person who is 10k just because another guy is carrying by doing 50k? Is that fair?

If the requirement to finish the dungeon is 20k dps (group) and you pull 10.1k dps, it is my belief that you are pulling your weight. You may well disagree.

What if the requirement is 60k, would you kick 10k player when someone is doing 50k?

Which dungeon has a 60k group dps check?

Falkreath hold, bloodroot forge

Hallothiel

No, don’t add meter

But on console so we do things differently

VaranisArano

No, don’t add meter

KingMagaw wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's the legit reason ZOS removed this function from the API. You may not like it, but that's how it went down.

If that was the legit reason (I never seen ZOS say this, please link) - Then it was a stupid change.


Almost any decent trial group runs Damage Share add on, especially when playing with new players or at the minimum has the player post a parse they done on a dummy before joining.


Plenty of players have/are paying for HM VET clears, so linking achievements means nothing. Or they exploited the achievement, cue RAKKHAT.

DPS counters and death counters are used in almost every trial i do/see. The goal to grouping up is mutual benefit, not to carry some tool.

You wanted the links, so I found some. Interesting reading.

So the change came in Patch 2.2.10
"Addons
Combat events that do not involve the player no longer have source unit IDs."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25575

There's a comment by a ZOS dev on the comments of the Group Damage add on (the one that had this function) stating it was an oversight and not intended: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1259&so=DESC&page=3#comments

As explained by Gina in this thread, this means that add-ons can't assign names of other players to combat events. Essentially, you can have a self-dps counter and a whole group counter, but the API functions that allowed the Group Damage add on to display individual DPS no longer work. (Apparently, the devs may have commented on this on ESO Live, but I can't check this or find specific info I'd be willing to quote) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2615322#Comment_2615322

Further down in that thread, Gina Bruno says:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241251/spy-addon-group-damage/p19
"Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others."

That thread should also give you an idea of the conversation around the time of the API function removal. Its not that different from our discussion now in 2018.


This thread discussing the practical API changes has a ZOS staff member discussing the reasons for removing the function and some of the alternatives they considered as well as why they decided those alternatives weren't used. Kicking people for low DPS and the fear people would be kicked for opting out of showing their DPS was part of their decisionmaking process: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6024



To summarize for anyone who doesn't want to wade through all the sources like I did:

The Group Damage add on allowed players to view individual DPS from each group member without player consent. Many players liked this, many players complained, for approximately the same reasons rehashed in this thread.

ZOS removed the function to assign names to combat events, only permitting the API to release self DPS counters and whole group DPS counters.

In the ZOS staff member's commentary, they stated that DPS counts aren't the whole of the fight, and allowing individual DPS counters without consent would lead to people being unfairly kicked for bad pulls or being below the group leader's idea of desired DPS. Additionally, they considered an option to opt out of DPS sharing, but ultimately decided that people would in practice by kicked/assumed to be bad if they opted out of showing their,DPS.



So, @KingMagaw there's the history of the change. In commentary, Gina Bruno specifically points to concerns of players being spied on without their consent and being discriminated against. In the context of a discussion that hasn't changed much in the last 2 and a half years and the additional commentary, it seems pretty clear to me that ZOS does not want individual DPS visible to other players without consent and does not want to create an addon where players are effectively forced to opt in to showing their DPS or be kicked.

You can disagree with the wisdom of that decision, in which case you and I are going to have to disagree.

But unless you can suggest an alternative that meets ZOS' concerns about the add on that led to the API function being removed, you are unlikely to make any headway in convincing then to reinstate that function. Because from where I sit, the concerns about players being named-and-shamed, player consent and players being unfairly kicked haven't changed. Sometimes we lose a good tool because ZOS can't trust people to use it well.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

VaranisArano wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's the legit reason ZOS removed this function from the API. You may not like it, but that's how it went down.

If that was the legit reason (I never seen ZOS say this, please link) - Then it was a stupid change.


Almost any decent trial group runs Damage Share add on, especially when playing with new players or at the minimum has the player post a parse they done on a dummy before joining.


Plenty of players have/are paying for HM VET clears, so linking achievements means nothing. Or they exploited the achievement, cue RAKKHAT.

DPS counters and death counters are used in almost every trial i do/see. The goal to grouping up is mutual benefit, not to carry some tool.

You wanted the links, so I found some. Interesting reading.

So the change came in Patch 2.2.10
"Addons
Combat events that do not involve the player no longer have source unit IDs."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25575

There's a comment by a ZOS dev on the comments of the Group Damage add on (the one that had this function) stating it was an oversight and not intended: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1259&so=DESC&page=3#comments

As explained by Gina in this thread, this means that add-ons can't assign names of other players to combat events. Essentially, you can have a self-dps counter and a whole group counter, but the API functions that allowed the Group Damage add on to display individual DPS no longer work. (Apparently, the devs may have commented on this on ESO Live, but I can't check this or find specific info I'd be willing to quote) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2615322#Comment_2615322

Further down in that thread, Gina Bruno says:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241251/spy-addon-group-damage/p19
"Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others."

That thread should also give you an idea of the conversation around the time of the API function removal. Its not that different from our discussion now in 2018.


This thread discussing the practical API changes has a ZOS staff member discussing the reasons for removing the function and some of the alternatives they considered as well as why they decided those alternatives weren't used. Kicking people for low DPS and the fear people would be kicked for opting out of showing their DPS was part of their decisionmaking process: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6024



To summarize for anyone who doesn't want to wade through all the sources like I did:

The Group Damage add on allowed players to view individual DPS from each group member without player consent. Many players liked this, many players complained, for approximately the same reasons rehashed in this thread.

ZOS removed the function to assign names to combat events, only permitting the API to release self DPS counters and whole group DPS counters.

In the ZOS staff member's commentary, they stated that DPS counts aren't the whole of the fight, and allowing individual DPS counters without consent would lead to people being unfairly kicked for bad pulls or being below the group leader's idea of desired DPS. Additionally, they considered an option to opt out of DPS sharing, but ultimately decided that people would in practice by kicked/assumed to be bad if they opted out of showing their,DPS.



So, @KingMagaw there's the history of the change. In commentary, Gina Bruno specifically points to concerns of players being spied on without their consent and being discriminated against. In the context of a discussion that hasn't changed much in the last 2 and a half years and the additional commentary, it seems pretty clear to me that ZOS does not want individual DPS visible to other players without consent and does not want to create an addon where players are effectively forced to opt in to showing their DPS or be kicked.

You can disagree with the wisdom of that decision, in which case you and I are going to have to disagree.

But unless you can suggest an alternative that meets ZOS' concerns about the add on that led to the API function being removed, you are unlikely to make any headway in convincing then to reinstate that function. Because from where I sit, the concerns about players being named-and-shamed, player consent and players being unfairly kicked haven't changed. Sometimes we lose a good tool because ZOS can't trust people to use it well.

Yes, instead of do it without permission through an add on. I say it’s better to build it in so everyone can see and know others can see then.

Joy_Division

Nvm. If a person has poor DPS, experienced players can tell without such an add-on

VaranisArano

No, don’t add meter

LeagueTroll wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's the legit reason ZOS removed this function from the API. You may not like it, but that's how it went down.

If that was the legit reason (I never seen ZOS say this, please link) - Then it was a stupid change.


Almost any decent trial group runs Damage Share add on, especially when playing with new players or at the minimum has the player post a parse they done on a dummy before joining.


Plenty of players have/are paying for HM VET clears, so linking achievements means nothing. Or they exploited the achievement, cue RAKKHAT.

DPS counters and death counters are used in almost every trial i do/see. The goal to grouping up is mutual benefit, not to carry some tool.

You wanted the links, so I found some. Interesting reading.

So the change came in Patch 2.2.10
"Addons
Combat events that do not involve the player no longer have source unit IDs."
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/25575

There's a comment by a ZOS dev on the comments of the Group Damage add on (the one that had this function) stating it was an oversight and not intended: http://www.esoui.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=1259&so=DESC&page=3#comments

As explained by Gina in this thread, this means that add-ons can't assign names of other players to combat events. Essentially, you can have a self-dps counter and a whole group counter, but the API functions that allowed the Group Damage add on to display individual DPS no longer work. (Apparently, the devs may have commented on this on ESO Live, but I can't check this or find specific info I'd be willing to quote) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2615322#Comment_2615322

Further down in that thread, Gina Bruno says:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241251/spy-addon-group-damage/p19
"Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others."

That thread should also give you an idea of the conversation around the time of the API function removal. Its not that different from our discussion now in 2018.


This thread discussing the practical API changes has a ZOS staff member discussing the reasons for removing the function and some of the alternatives they considered as well as why they decided those alternatives weren't used. Kicking people for low DPS and the fear people would be kicked for opting out of showing their DPS was part of their decisionmaking process: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6024



To summarize for anyone who doesn't want to wade through all the sources like I did:

The Group Damage add on allowed players to view individual DPS from each group member without player consent. Many players liked this, many players complained, for approximately the same reasons rehashed in this thread.

ZOS removed the function to assign names to combat events, only permitting the API to release self DPS counters and whole group DPS counters.

In the ZOS staff member's commentary, they stated that DPS counts aren't the whole of the fight, and allowing individual DPS counters without consent would lead to people being unfairly kicked for bad pulls or being below the group leader's idea of desired DPS. Additionally, they considered an option to opt out of DPS sharing, but ultimately decided that people would in practice by kicked/assumed to be bad if they opted out of showing their,DPS.



So, @KingMagaw there's the history of the change. In commentary, Gina Bruno specifically points to concerns of players being spied on without their consent and being discriminated against. In the context of a discussion that hasn't changed much in the last 2 and a half years and the additional commentary, it seems pretty clear to me that ZOS does not want individual DPS visible to other players without consent and does not want to create an addon where players are effectively forced to opt in to showing their DPS or be kicked.

You can disagree with the wisdom of that decision, in which case you and I are going to have to disagree.

But unless you can suggest an alternative that meets ZOS' concerns about the add on that led to the API function being removed, you are unlikely to make any headway in convincing then to reinstate that function. Because from where I sit, the concerns about players being named-and-shamed, player consent and players being unfairly kicked haven't changed. Sometimes we lose a good tool because ZOS can't trust people to use it well.

Yes, instead of do it without permission through an add on. I say it’s better to build it in so everyone can see and know others can see then.

Unless you address the concerns about player consent, players being unfairly kicked, and players being effectively forced to opt in or be kicked which caused the removal of this in the first place, ZOS isn't likely to officially add this to the UI, with or without an add-on.

The concerns that led to the API function removal haven't changed. Without a solution, I dont expect ZOS to add the API function back as an add on or an official UI function.

I certainly don't agree that ZOS should force everyone to show their DPS, which sounds like what you are suggesting.

oghannon_ESO

No, don’t add meter

jabrone77 wrote: »

Games that have this functionality are toxic as anything.
No way it needs to be a part of this game again.
It didn't work out well when this was possible. Why do you think it will be any different now?
No thanks.

Let's see..most toxic mmo that I've ever played in a dungeon setting? FFXIV. In that game, you can see EVERYTHING about EVERYONE, even how well (or not so well) they've kept up on their crafting skills. That's the #1 reason why I uninstalled that toxic game. Don't want a repeat of that here, where the first few minutes in a random dungeon involves inspecting every other player and booting the ones you don't think will be a benefit to you.

*** that.

VaranisArano

No, don’t add meter

Joy_Division wrote: »

Nvm. If a person has poor DPS, experienced players can tell without such an add-on

Agreed. I certainly can tell who are the capable and incapable players when I do random dungeon groups. I also tend to go with the minimum requirement of "Are we good enough to complete the dungeon?" when it comes to my minimal standards for random groupmates. If I wanted a minimum DPS, I should have formed my own group from guildies.

I'm not in favor of being able to view individual DPS numbers of other players. Its not necessary for the success of groups or even for experienced players to identify who's got the low DPS.

phillyproduct

Yes, add dps % meter

Grabmoore wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Some players are too obsessed with numbers.

Those numbers decide whether you're able to complete or fail the ecounter. Witchcraft!

No they are not. There are next to no damage checks in this game. The only I could think of are trial bosses.

Implementing percentages only adds toxicity. People already can share their numbers via add ons (console doesn't matter anyways). I do 45k+ on magicka and still don't want this added. It's just bad and we should be happy to live without it.

This is the type of sh** that makes me so mad pc players give zero fks about console and it feels like zos doesn't either all i want is to play a game with a actual ui.

This game on console had no chat no numbers what so ever and the only way to test stuff was bloodspawn or guessing.

It doesn't half 2 be perfect maybe if you chose 2 look the group gives up the right to kick idk idc i just want more information.

What type of dark ages are we living in if we fear information

KingMagaw

Don’t know / care

VaranisArano wrote: »

So, @KingMagaw there's the history of the change. In commentary, Gina Bruno specifically points to concerns of players being spied on without their consent and being discriminated against. In the context of a discussion that hasn't changed much in the last 2 and a half years and the additional commentary, it seems pretty clear to me that ZOS does not want individual DPS visible to other players without consent and does not want to create an addon where players are effectively forced to opt in to showing their DPS or be kicked.

You can disagree with the wisdom of that decision, in which case you and I are going to have to disagree.

But unless you can suggest an alternative that meets ZOS' concerns about the add on that led to the API function being removed, you are unlikely to make any headway in convincing then to reinstate that function. Because from where I sit, the concerns about players being named-and-shamed, player consent and players being unfairly kicked haven't changed. Sometimes we lose a good tool because ZOS can't trust people to use it well.

You have given me some reading i appreciate it, i vaguely remember this being mentioned. Additionally i quickly asked my trial guild and was informed the GroupDamageShare add on was working weeks ago, although this shouldn't be taken as fact because i never seen it.

I will also point out that taking it away from the base game is solid idea but if players have to download and authorise this add on now, they are consenting to its use, so no problems should arise from this. I believe it was wise to take away from base game but unwise to disable this totally.


I will disagree with unfairly kicked, at least from my experience. I group up, with the only intention of mutual gain. Mutual is key here. If i am doing 35k DPS and my 'team mate' is doing 10k DPS, apologies but i am not here to breast feed nor carry anyone. Additionally the content in ESO is so brain numbingly easy that it does not necessarily make the content harder in this example, jsut longer and by risk of sounding selfish, someone feeding off my time i will not permit it, in game or IRL.

Another example would be score runs for LB's. There needs to be a way to gauge players who want to group up for mutual benefit. If ZOS takes away base game function and disables API for group damage share, then players will have to submit a parse on a dummy to take part, it is that simple from the way i am seeing it.


Again, many thanks for taking the time to post this information. I will re-read it and see if i learn any

LadyNalcarya

Yes, add dps % meter

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

pod88kk

Yes, add dps % meter

I play on console & would love a bitta combat metrics or constellations. More to learn what I'm doing wrong & get better but obviously there'll be people who won't let other in their groups unless they're pulling certain numbers

VaranisArano

No, don’t add meter

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

VaranisArano wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

Yes, content also don’t require healer for healing ppl in red or use any orbs. And ofc you get ppl complain about those.

Healer often get kicked by garb dd (most likely the ones do 10k dps) even when perform up to standard. This system make healer underprivileged.

Septimus_Magna

Yes, add dps % meter

VaranisArano wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

I dont think people doing dungeons with the group finder expect 25k+ dps, especially for non-dlc dungeons. If the entire group thinks 25k is not enough dps and vote kick the 'bad' DD there's a good chance they get someone with lower dps in return.

In the end people just want a good dungeon run, including the people who are struggling to pull decent numbers. If everyone can see what you produce it might motivate players to do some research because they dont want to look bad.

When I queue with my tank 1/3 times the DDs just dont have a clue what to do, they spam their skills, run out of resources and light attack the rest of the fight. Seeing 8k dps might give them an indication they're doing something wrong. All they have to do is search their class on YT and practice the rotation a bit so they can hit 20k dps, everyone can do it so there's no excuse imo.

Agenericname

No, don’t add meter

LeagueTroll wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

Yes, content also don’t require healer for healing ppl in red or use any orbs. And ofc you get ppl complain about those.

Healer often get kicked by garb dd (most likely the ones do 10k dps) even when perform up to standard. This system make healer underprivileged.

If healers are underprivileged it's because of their role, not because they don't have access to the damage information of other players.

If people are blaming the healer for not healing them through this, a meter wouldn't change that. That meter isn't going to magically move them.

Simply reject the vote.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

Agenericname wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

Yes, content also don’t require healer for healing ppl in red or use any orbs. And ofc you get ppl complain about those.

Healer often get kicked by garb dd (most likely the ones do 10k dps) even when perform up to standard. This system make healer underprivileged.

If healers are underprivileged it's because of their role, not because they don't have access to the damage information of other players.

If people are blaming the healer for not healing them through this, a meter wouldn't change that. That meter isn't going to magically move them.

Simply reject the vote.

A meter will clearly give dd less privilege. It gives group more reasons to kick bad dd who claims healer is bad. Instead of “healer’s fault”, it becomes clear “10k dd’s fault adds got out of hand”.

Grabmoore

No, don’t add meter

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It would be a great way to figure out who's the fake DPS.

Do you realize that "fake dps" depends on who the other dps is. For some the guy pulling less than 50k dps might be the fake dps. For others it might be that guy pulling less than 60k dps.

It is all in the eye of the beholder.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Transparency is always a good thing. If the L33Ts want to use it as the end all be all thats fine. Atleast people without add ons can finally have a true way to figure out their dps

Based on your comment I am assuming you are on console since it would not make sense to not want to use combat metrix to see your damage on PC but want Zos to add something to the base UI to share your DPS with everyone in the group.

Zos has already chosen to not share damage between players. They have confirmed this since and have only allowed it in the very specific situation I already stated. It seems players are ignoring this which means no one in this thread really has an interest in making this happen.

How many 60k dps people are using group finder? And why a pug healer and tank would kick a 50k dps dd? Let's not forget that a group kick requires 3 votes.
Also, why are you guys trying to exagerrate it harder and harder every page? First 50k, then 60k. It's gonna be 100k when we reach 10th page I guess. I wonder why healers and tanks don't wanna queue in group finder if there's so many awesome dds.
No one in their right mind would kick a 50k dps dd if he's not a complete idiot. If anything, that dd will probably get a ton of friend requests after using group finder.

Yeah, thats kinda ridiculous. I'm more concerned about people kicking the DDs because they are doing 10-15k DPS instead of 20k+ DPS on content that doesn't require 20k+ DPS. Or the DD doing 20k DPS when the group wants 25k or 30k DPS even though that's not required to complete the content. I think those are far more likely scenarios.

Or as the ZOS commentary I linked above indicated, they were concerned that a bad parse might lead to someone being kicked who could otherwise perform up to snuff for the content.

Yes, content also don’t require healer for healing ppl in red or use any orbs. And ofc you get ppl complain about those.

Healer often get kicked by garb dd (most likely the ones do 10k dps) even when perform up to standard. This system make healer underprivileged.

If healers are underprivileged it's because of their role, not because they don't have access to the damage information of other players.

If people are blaming the healer for not healing them through this, a meter wouldn't change that. That meter isn't going to magically move them.

Simply reject the vote.

A meter will clearly give dd less privilege. It gives group more reasons to kick bad dd who claims healer is bad. Instead of “healer’s fault”, it becomes clear “10k dd’s fault adds got out of hand”.

This is just wrong. Noone should get kicked. At this point I'd rather support the removal of the votekick feature.

Seriously, what's wrong with your groups? Maybe, get friends?

Merlin13KAGL

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Some players are too obsessed with numbers.

Those numbers decide whether you're able to complete or fail the ecounter. Witchcraft!

No they are not. There are next to no damage checks in this game. The only I could think of are trial bosses.

Implementing percentages only adds toxicity. People already can share their numbers via add ons (console doesn't matter anyways). I do 45k+ on magicka and still don't want this added. It's just bad and we should be happy to live without it.

You are supporting denying information to the tank and healer. And yes there are lots of dps checks, just most can be done with a 40k group dps. You know who is doing what dmg don’t mean tank and healer have a clue. Keep tank and healer in the dark is not fair. If tank and healer are getting judged on, so should all the dd.

Uhm, that's what I meant. Why judge people at all, if content is easy enough anyways?
I don't support blaming tanks nor healers. This should not happen either. If it actually happens, no dps meter would change this.

You are free to ask the DDs to post dps, but I don't get what this could achieve besides throwing more weapons in the mosh pit.

Right, do nothing about tank and healer being judged, and say ‘why judge at all’.

Why do the tank and healer NEED to know dps? Is the boss/mob dying? Y/N

Because dd can see if tank and healer are bad. Tank and healer should have the right to see if dd are bad too.

Here's a hint: If you need a meter to determine the second, then the first is most likely true.

Again, if you have experience, you have an idea how long things should take. I stopped a DCII run once before we even got to the first boss, because it's was group consensus that it wasn't gonna happen.

Stuff dies in a reasonable amount of time, or it doesn't. And unless I'm remembering it way wrong, neither of the dungeons you mention require 60k group, at least not single target, especially with all the other mechanics going on at any given moment.

If this is really a concern, sick the DPS on two different stacks of mobs, see which burns faster. You can also 'lose taunt' for a sec. A solid DD will be able to deal with it briefly without issue. A fake one will panic and die.

If you're a tank, tank. If you're a healer, heal. Leave the killing to the DPS, as there are not many actual dps checks in the game.

If DPS is still too low, then simply try another group. All this will serve to do is isolate people before they have a chance to improve. They'll quit before they get started.

It's intended to be group content. Maybe work through it as a group, instead of having so much insistence on who gets the blame?

EDIT: I'm calling *** here because I've gotten groups through content they were not technically ready for. There's almost always more to it than just the DPS race.

LeagueTroll

Yes, add dps % meter

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

LeagueTroll wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Some players are too obsessed with numbers.

Those numbers decide whether you're able to complete or fail the ecounter. Witchcraft!

No they are not. There are next to no damage checks in this game. The only I could think of are trial bosses.

Implementing percentages only adds toxicity. People already can share their numbers via add ons (console doesn't matter anyways). I do 45k+ on magicka and still don't want this added. It's just bad and we should be happy to live without it.

You are supporting denying information to the tank and healer. And yes there are lots of dps checks, just most can be done with a 40k group dps. You know who is doing what dmg don’t mean tank and healer have a clue. Keep tank and healer in the dark is not fair. If tank and healer are getting judged on, so should all the dd.

Uhm, that's what I meant. Why judge people at all, if content is easy enough anyways?
I don't support blaming tanks nor healers. This should not happen either. If it actually happens, no dps meter would change this.

You are free to ask the DDs to post dps, but I don't get what this could achieve besides throwing more weapons in the mosh pit.

Right, do nothing about tank and healer being judged, and say ‘why judge at all’.

Why do the tank and healer NEED to know dps? Is the boss/mob dying? Y/N

Because dd can see if tank and healer are bad. Tank and healer should have the right to see if dd are bad too.

Here's a hint: If you need a meter to determine the second, then the first is most likely true.

Again, if you have experience, you have an idea how long things should take. I stopped a DCII run once before we even got to the first boss, because it's was group consensus that it wasn't gonna happen.

Stuff dies in a reasonable amount of time, or it doesn't. And unless I'm remembering it way wrong, neither of the dungeons you mention require 60k group, at least not single target, especially with all the other mechanics going on at any given moment.

If this is really a concern, sick the DPS on two different stacks of mobs, see which burns faster. You can also 'lose taunt' for a sec. A solid DD will be able to deal with it briefly without issue. A fake one will panic and die.

If you're a tank, tank. If you're a healer, heal. Leave the killing to the DPS, as there are not many actual dps checks in the game.

If DPS is still too low, then simply try another group. All this will serve to do is isolate people before they have a chance to improve. They'll quit before they get started.

It's intended to be group content. Maybe work through it as a group, instead of having so much insistence on who gets the blame?

EDIT: I'm calling *** here because I've gotten groups through content they were not technically ready for. There's almost always more to it than just the DPS race.

Why should mediocre tank leave group and subpar dd stay?