What if Zenimax disables the shared DPS API?

wolfie1.0.

Tradewind wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I'd just report the harassers and go on with my day. You have nothing to be embarrassed about if you have low dps. There's always some sweaty fool who tries to belittle others but mute/block him and go enjoy yourself.

"My rotation is really bad, so I don't play with Dragonknight because of my low DPS. I have a Necromancer, but no one lets me join trials\dungeons because of my low DPS. I don't play my Warden because others shame me for my low DPS, even though I like the class. I don't play Sorcerer because players say I need to use pets to have more DPS, and they prefer other Sorcerers over me. I don't play Templar either because of my low DPS and inability to make rotations."

* If Zenimax completely removes all DPS sharing, no one will see how bad my DPS is, i can play with any class and I can focus on not dying and doing mechanics. And belive me, i know all the mechanics of every single trial and almost every dungeon, so I can be a valuable asset to any group if Zenimax removes all DPS sharing. What's more beautiful than this?

Soarora wrote: »

Again, it literally wouldn’t do anything. If people don’t want to share their dps in Hodor they can just not opt-in. If people don’t want to share their dps in logs then don’t turn anonymous mode off and run a common class. If people don’t want to have their dps inferred… well that can happen in 4man even without a single sharing of dps.

1. If all other players from the group have anonymous disabled, they will find out in the logs who doesn't have enough DPS.
2. We all know that for harder content such as HM/Trifectas, you need Discord and in Discord you will share your parse or you will not go anywhere.
3. For joining any prog group you have to enable anonymous and you're forced to share your DPS

It is important to ensure that players with real-life disabilities or those who struggle with rotations are not excluded from joining groups solely based on their low DPS. In addition, there is no need for anyone to know about their disabilities. Noone have too! These players should not feel obligated to plead with others, saying 'please let me join.' and asking for pitty.

Honestly, I think your looking to address the symptoms here and not cure the disease.

Removing dps sharing won't solve your issue. In fact it likely will make it worse.

Before combat dummies or combat addons were a thing to get into harder content you had to prove you could do certian content solo or in dous by having someone follow you along. You also were required to run certian gear sets and have builds made a certian way. At least now if you have a non bis build, you can prove you have good dps.

Removing access to the sharing of dps stats won't change the fact that groups for harder content have dps thresholds that have to be met, in order to get certain content completed. This often requires everyone to pull equally. If someone doesn't then someone else has to pick up the slack, in some cases it works, in others it doesn't because not enough people are pulling. This is why if you want to buy an achievement run it costs an arm, two legs, and your soul. They are doing the run with effectively 11 people instead of 12 for trials, and 3 people instead of 4 for dungeons.

Sure zos can remove dps sharing from the api, but groups will still require you to post dummy results (a core in game feature now and since it's crown related not likely to change) into Discord. They will lock down what builds you use and gear you have (ie ban Oakensoul) or other more restrictive actions.

Honestly, I think your asking the wrong question. Instead of asking why do I need to share my dps, you should be asking instead this:

Why does ZOS put such emphasis on dps mechanics and efficiency than they do other possible mechanics?

Often, with bosses and mobs in pve content the common way to avoid doing mechanics is to dps race them down, and ZOS allows this in most cases. So if you really want to avoid sharing dps, or get dps thresholds lower, then convince ZOS to change how PVE content works

Tradewind

From the first moment, you, me, or anyone can buy one run. None of this makes sense:

JamesForums wrote: »

not everyone is supposed to play the hardest content. it is designed to challenge those who are at the top of their game.

I can agree with you if there's some kind of "personal achievements." Something where you will be rewarded alone... oh wait, we have solo arenas and rankings for that. It's perfectly fine for me. I don't ask for the top DPS to be nerfed just because I can't deal the same amount of damage.
The game gives you absolutely nothing for being the best "alone," but it rewards you for being greatest as a team.

jmacclureb14_ESO

what if your bank stopped showing your balance?

Sarannah

Noone is asking for the DPS top end to change, nor for the top end content to be changed, nor for the combat mechanics to change. All I am asking for is to massively raise the floor. So the DPS difference is 10-20k tops, not a 100k difference. And this is a game, asking for massive amounts of work and massive amounts of hours to be put in to even begin the MMO aspects of the game is just too much to ask for. Gaming is for fun, not for a second job. Therefor it is simple, the top end must be more accessible. Just because your grandfather had to walk barefooted over two mountians in the snow during a blizzard for a glass of water, does not mean you have to. But that is exactly how the top end seems to want the lower end to be, to suffer like they did. Which as it turns out barely anyone wants to do, so these players leave/quit the game(or stick to overland).

Higher content being more accessible for more players only means more players will do that content, more players can then enjoy more parts of the game. More players being able to do PvE endgame also means more groups/guilds will form, more players will stick around for content they would otherwise not be able to enjoy. More players who would stick with the game entirely, when they otherwise would not. More players in PvE endgame also means more players may try PvP, as the damage difference would be more forgiving as well.

Trying to keep the endgame available only for the elite players, will be bad for the game. And it already is, as the MMO part of the game is near death(both PvE and PvP). While overland flourishes, as it does not have the same 'work' requirement.

PS: Add the bad dungeon experiences in normal dungeons to this(because of seasoned veterans), and it is a wonder so many players even stick around at all.

Tradewind

JamesForums wrote: »

the one thing we agree on.

higher dps (and working toward acceptable levels of it) are how the game works.

if you can’t meet the requirements, don’t participate in the “end-game” content for 12 and 4 man instances.

this is a feature of the game, not something needing fixed. don’t play a game expecting it to cater to your whims. find ways to play this game that you enjoy or find another game.

the things you complain of are what other people have enjoyed for years. we don’t want to see our game reworked for one squeaky wheel.

You are mistaken. If someone cannot meet the requirements to participate in the end-game with a specific build (2 bars), they should have the right to change their build to something like HA(or anyother) that allows them to participate. However, you and many others do not accept this and do not recognize that they have the same right as you to participate in the end-game with any kind of build that allows them to do so.

edit:
Of course, they must be able to carry their own weight and have knowledge of mechanics, like anyother player. HA users can carry themselves and sometimes they even carry those who use 2 bars with very poor rotation.
Penalizing HA users for the incompetence of others in weaving is so wrong. It seems unfair to punish HA users for something they have no control over, and it also fails to address the root cause of the problem.

Krymsyn_Panda

If you are having trouble finding a guild without DPS requirements, have you considered making your own guild? That way you can set all the requirements, or rather lack thereof, yourself!

Tradewind

Krymsyn_Panda wrote: »

If you are having trouble finding a guild without DPS requirements, have you considered making your own guild? That way you can set all the requirements, or rather lack thereof, yourself!

Six pages of comments can be quite a lot to read and can be overwhelming at times. I completely understand you.

Krymsyn_Panda

Sorry for trying to help. I suppose ranting at others to let you play with them is more enjoyable. To each their own I suppose.

Tradewind

Krymsyn_Panda wrote: »

Sorry for trying to help. I suppose ranting at others to let you play with them is more enjoyable. To each their own I suppose.

I tried to crete my Guild, but nobody join because I was using two bars with low DPS. So, I switched to HA, and even though our guild didn't have enough players, we asked for people to join us. Sadly, some players didn't want to join because we were good with HA.
We almost complete vHRC one time, but someone destroyed the statues on the last boss, so we couldn't pass HM. That day was really difficult for me, and I cried all day.

Being a guild leader is not an easy task. If you ever create one, I would be interested in joining. PC-EU please.

Tradewind

Krymsyn_Panda wrote: »

Sorry for trying to help. I suppose ranting at others to let you play with them is more enjoyable. To each their own I suppose.

Well, one thing I know for sure. Herrament, kicking or making fun of others just because they play differently is not "enjoyable" for me. Maybe it's "enjoyable" for you, but as you say: " To each their own I suppose".

N00BxV1

I don't need to see a DPS meter to tell if the group is doing enough damage or not. I've played this game long enough to know just by seeing how long it takes for things to die. And I can pretty much gauge a group just by watching them (I tank).

For example (true story). In veteran Scrivener's Hall, if it takes the DPS a whole minute to kill the first group of adds then I can pretty much tell how the rest of the dungeon will go. And if it takes them two minutes to kill the second group of adds then I know it's time for me to just bail out, because they'll most likely not make it past the first boss...

While some people are toxic, that's not always the case. When the group is doomed to fail then I wanna know sooner than later so I'm not wasting more time. And that's pretty much why people want to see DPS metrics and stuff so they're not wasting unnecessary time. If you want to play in an organized group then you should try to meet their expectations. It's really no different than any professional sport asking for tryouts or a business asking for resumes. There's nothing wrong with wanting to know what a person is or is not capable of before you spend time with them.

Edit: Wanted to add that I don't play in organized groups. I always solo PUG and just deal with whoever I get grouped with. Which can sometimes be unnecessarily difficult...

Krymsyn_Panda

If guild recruitment is tough, personally, I’d try messaging the people on the forums here who are worried about the possible upcoming HA nerfs or other people that have expressed concern of being left out from guilds due to being a HA user.

I agree though, being a guild leader is tough, but I don’t believe in asking others to do something I’m not willing to do myself.

Tradewind

JamesForums wrote: »

"There are no “rights”

I agree that the 2 bars build deserves to have the best DPS since they have put in a lot of effort to achieve it. However, if there are no "rights" or rules in place, then it becomes a complicated matter.

JamesForums wrote: »

Participating with any build you want is not how it works.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Zastrix

TL;DR: Sharing DPS not required by game to do content; Raid leaders have a choice whether they socially require DPS sharing.

If you have a pug group you don't need to share your DPS, it doesn't matter. You will either fail or not fail. Or people will see that the group DPS is so low that they quit.

If you are doing a vSS run which is NOT a prog run, sharing DPS doesn't matter, you will either fail or not fail. Or people will see that the group DPS is so low that they quit.

If you're doing a prog group, but, like, a REAL prog group doing veteran DLC HM trials, you can bet that sharing DPS is required as you can see who made which mistakes and to address issues if some DPSs are lacking in gear, or mechanics.

You don't need to share DPS to do content, but you do have to realize that this game is a Multiplayer game. It's not a solo game. Teamwork is required and personal choices of the raid leaders matter. If you don't like them form your own group.

Personally I share my DPS and like to see shared DPS because I can see if someone has way higher DPS than me, then I can ask for their builds, rotation or general tips.

I didn't start this game with a 100k parse...

Edit:

Also another reason why to share DPS:

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

Krymsyn_Panda wrote: »

Sorry for trying to help. I suppose ranting at others to let you play with them is more enjoyable. To each their own I suppose.

I tried to crete my Guild, but nobody join because I was using two bars with low DPS. So, I switched to HA, and even though our guild didn't have enough players, we asked for people to join us. Sadly, some players didn't want to join because we were good with HA.
We almost complete vHRC one time, but someone destroyed the statues on the last boss, so we couldn't pass HM. That day was really difficult for me, and I cried all day.

Being a guild leader is not an easy task. If you ever create one, I would be interested in joining. PC-EU please.

This right here should tell you that what you want is not what the community wants. People DO care about dps-- as they should, because as you discovered in HRC hm, without enough damage everything becomes much harder.

Although if you can't find 11 other people to do the easiest trial in the game, it's possible the problem is not with your dps and is actually with the fact that you are stubborn and can't be reasoned with.

Zastrix

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

This right here should tell you that what you want is not what the community wants. People DO care about dps-- as they should, because as you discovered in HRC hm, without enough damage everything becomes much harder.

Although if you can't find 11 other people to do the easiest trial in the game, it's possible the problem is not with your dps and is actually with the fact that you are stubborn and can't be reasoned with.

My man ain't pulling no punches, but that was a good dose of a reality check!

FantasticFreddie

Zastrix wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

This right here should tell you that what you want is not what the community wants. People DO care about dps-- as they should, because as you discovered in HRC hm, without enough damage everything becomes much harder.

Although if you can't find 11 other people to do the easiest trial in the game, it's possible the problem is not with your dps and is actually with the fact that you are stubborn and can't be reasoned with.

My man ain't pulling no punches, but that was a good dose of a reality check!

What's mind boggling to me.is this dude ran face first into the point and still missed it.

He MADE a group that didn't care about dps! He had what he wanted! And they couldn't clear the content!! And he managed to not learn a single thing from the experience!

Tradewind

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Although if you can't find 11 other people to do the easiest trial in the game, it's possible the problem is not with your dps and is actually with the fact that you are stubborn and can't be reasoned with.

You don't have a single clue about my DPS. You have no idea if it's low, high, better, or worse than yours. Even so... Do you really believe I can't even complete nFungal Grotto 1? I can do it relax. But there are so many players who struggle with their rotation and cannot complete it. This is because so many other players, like you maybe, will not play with them or join their team only because they have worse DPS than you. And if they change to something like HA, you will reject them because they have better DPS than you (Not because they are stronger, but because others are not as good).
All of this is really sad for me. The way so many players discriminate against others only because of their DPS and for no reason at all.


Funny, isn't it?

FantasticFreddie

Tradewind wrote: »

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

Although if you can't find 11 other people to do the easiest trial in the game, it's possible the problem is not with your dps and is actually with the fact that you are stubborn and can't be reasoned with.

You don't have a single clue about my DPS. You have no idea if it's low, high, better, or worse than yours. Even so... Do you really believe I can't even complete nFungal Grotto 1? Funny, isn't it?

Well you said the reason people did you want to join your groups was your low dps. If that's not the case then, well.....

And you've lost track of your threads-- this one is about disabling UI.

TimeWizard

Tradewind wrote: »

edit:
You can't even imagine how happy I am for those with real-life disabilities or for those who struggle with rotations just to think about this possibility.

as someone with several disabilities, I hate disabilities always being brought up as a reason that we should dumb down the game, simplify rotations, or lose valuable tools to improve gameplay.

knowing what dps group members are pulling does not make toxicity happen. Toxic players will bully and harass regardless. Instead it allows examination of best practices in a particular fight. It allows RLs to focus on helping those who are struggling and give them special attention. It allows for players to push themselves further as they strive to climb the list up to the top, and pushes them look into why they might be struggling.

Zastrix

Tradewind wrote: »

All of this is really sad for me. The way so many players discriminate against others only because of their DPS and for no reason at all.

Having a minimum DPS requirement to either pass a DPS check or not waste multiple hours on a fairly easy trial sounds like a pretty good reason to 'disciminate' against DDs who can't pull their weight mate. (I'm talking only about having a minimum requirement, not harassing etc)

So with that logic job posting discriminates because they expect people to have a specific skillset and/or experience?

Tradewind

TimeWizard wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

edit:
You can't even imagine how happy I am for those with real-life disabilities or for those who struggle with rotations just to think about this possibility.

as someone with several disabilities, I hate disabilities always being brought up as a reason that we should dumb down the game, simplify rotations, or lose valuable tools to improve gameplay.

knowing what dps group members are pulling does not make toxicity happen. Toxic players will bully and harass regardless. Instead it allows examination of best practices in a particular fight. It allows RLs to focus on helping those who are struggling and give them special attention. It allows for players to push themselves further as they strive to climb the list up to the top, and pushes them look into why they might be struggling.

Soon Zenimax will contribute to all this generosity with a nerf for everyone who uses HA. I sincerely believe that if this nerf is not enough, these players will continue to ask for more and more in exchange for pretty words about how the rotation should be done perfectly. Because that's all they have to offer.

peacenote

Tradewind wrote: »

How many other guilds discriminate against players like this one? Is it a requirement for all players to have a DPS of 50k or more to complete the vTrial?
But if players parse 90k with HA, Zenimax nerf it... this is amazing.

Once again, sharing DPS does nothing better then discriminate against players

OP, I gave two reasons as to why removing DPS sharing would be bad for the game, and those same two reasons were two good points as to why it has a place for something other than "discrimination." Those two points were people having fun, in a game which the point is to have fun, and increased efficiency for trial leaders because they have limited time. I gave lots of supporting details and arguments and you seemed to have completely overlooked these points with this conclusion.

It is ok to agree to disagree, but at least acknowledge the points if you're going to make such definite statements! I gave two good reasons... those aren't "nothing."

Nevertheless I actually have something else to add to this discussion.

Many threads in U35 mentioned how there appeared to be a disconnect between the combat team and the content design team, where ZOS says it wants to raise the floor and lower the ceiling, but new content has a higher and higher ceiling to give people who want a challenge, a challenge.

This is the real problem.

Not DPS sharing, not the buffing and nerfing of different builds to make different metas which has been happening since the beginning of ESO and, really, the advent of MMOs. So in my opinion you are targeting the wrong thing here.

As long as certain numbers are required to have smooth runs and clear content, these requirements will exist, regardless of whether there are tools to measure them or players have to resort to real life testing scenarios (also described in my previous post) to determine DPS. If ZOS designed the new content for groups who averaged, say, 30/40k DPS per damage dealer, with only specialized achievements requiring higher numbers, the "discrimination" you describe (although I don't agree it is discrimination) would be less common and only exist for groups trying to do certain achievements. The problem is not the DPS sharing tools but the content that drives the desired level of skill that causes the behavior and requirements we sometimes see for groups.

That said, it is definitely another path we could go down that frankly edges towards entitlement if people think they should be able to do "anything." I can't pole vault so it isn't discrimination to not be allowed to compete in the Olympics as a pole vaulter. It is not necessarily bad that some content has higher requirements in ESO, and that not everyone can complete it. I'll never get the PvP Emperor dye or achievement and I'm ok with that. There is SO MUCH to do in this game that it is kind of a flawed premise to say that people are being excluded from content because of DPS meters because it isn't ALL content. Not by a long shot. And insisting that this is still discrimination by going down that road, is kind of an "everyone must be able to do everything" stance which is kind of an unreasonable stance. We all have strengths and weaknesses. Not everyone can do everything. I can't drive a car in the Indy 500 or be hired to fly a plane or be a Spanish translator because I don't have those skills!

But if you want to be an advocate for more accessible content, content design is the place to advocate. I think ZOS has actually made progress in this space, particularly when it comes to adding hard modes to each boss, so instanced PvE content now has normal, veteran, and veteran hard mode as choices for each fight... but there is probably more they can do here. Removing DPS meters won't solve anything and will ruin a lot of people's enjoyment of the game in the process.

VaranisArano

Tradewind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

edit:
You can't even imagine how happy I am for those with real-life disabilities or for those who struggle with rotations just to think about this possibility.

as someone with several disabilities, I hate disabilities always being brought up as a reason that we should dumb down the game, simplify rotations, or lose valuable tools to improve gameplay.

knowing what dps group members are pulling does not make toxicity happen. Toxic players will bully and harass regardless. Instead it allows examination of best practices in a particular fight. It allows RLs to focus on helping those who are struggling and give them special attention. It allows for players to push themselves further as they strive to climb the list up to the top, and pushes them look into why they might be struggling.

Soon Zenimax will contribute to all this generosity with a nerf for everyone who uses HA. I sincerely believe that if this nerf is not enough, these players will continue to ask for more and more in exchange for pretty words about how the rotation should be done perfectly. Because that's all they have to offer.

If that nerf happens, it won't be because players complained.

It'll be because the Devs are closely monitoring how prevalent HA builds perform, and decided they were overperforming compared to how the Devs want them to perform.

Why is it so hard to believe that ZOS uses the actual combat data they have access to from all the trial runs across the player base to decide whether HA builds need a nerf or not?

isadoraisacat

jmacclureb14_ESO wrote: »

what if your bank stopped showing your balance?

What if your bank told you could no longer use their service because you had a low income ?

FantasticFreddie

isadoraisacat wrote: »

jmacclureb14_ESO wrote: »

what if your bank stopped showing your balance?

What if your bank told you could no longer use their service because you had a low income ?

....do you not know about minimum balance requirements, service fees, overdraft penalties, etc etc etc?

isadoraisacat

Tradewind wrote: »

TimeWizard wrote: »

Tradewind wrote: »

edit:
You can't even imagine how happy I am for those with real-life disabilities or for those who struggle with rotations just to think about this possibility.

as someone with several disabilities, I hate disabilities always being brought up as a reason that we should dumb down the game, simplify rotations, or lose valuable tools to improve gameplay.

knowing what dps group members are pulling does not make toxicity happen. Toxic players will bully and harass regardless. Instead it allows examination of best practices in a particular fight. It allows RLs to focus on helping those who are struggling and give them special attention. It allows for players to push themselves further as they strive to climb the list up to the top, and pushes them look into why they might be struggling.

Soon Zenimax will contribute to all this generosity with a nerf for everyone who uses HA. I sincerely believe that if this nerf is not enough, these players will continue to ask for more and more in exchange for pretty words about how the rotation should be done perfectly. Because that's all they have to offer.

The problem is the questers and solo players are ignored too. Some people are trying to solo world bosses and do things solo which doesn’t affect any of these groups. I’m one of those people. I will
Play with a. Small group of friends who are far from “elite” and my playing will
Never affect these people. But the nerfs affect my playing when I’m trying to reach my own goals.

Deltias gaming just did a pool asking what people are most excited for and everyone picked the new class and not the new story.

It’s clearly people play for mechanics and challenge and those of us elder scrolls fans who are trying to enjoy the story content and their own solo goals are Ignored. HA is perfect solo build… they keep forgetting these nerfs affect those who will
Never affect the elite groups as they will
Never play with them be part of it or even selected anyway.

I’m all for screening making sure someone meets the dps for a challenge that’s fine what I don’t support is them not allowing someone based on the build. If they hit the dps requirement spamming crystal frags and light attacks than that’s how they do it. If they get it from heavy lighting attacks they get it that way. Who cares the job still gets done.

Tradewind

VaranisArano wrote: »

If that nerf happens, it won't be because players complained.

It'll be because the Devs are closely monitoring how prevalent HA builds perform, and decided they were overperforming compared to how the Devs want them to perform.

Why is it so hard to believe that ZOS uses the actual combat data they have access to from all the trial runs across the player base to decide whether HA builds need a nerf or not?

• Why is it so hard to believe that HA users are being penalized because of low DPS in 2 bars?
• Why is it so hard to understand that many players simply can't parse 110k with 2 bars due to disabilities or any other reason?
• Why do so many players think that anyone who can't parse 120k doesn't deserve things like Godslayer? It's a hard and top-tier achievement, yes, but why don't some players deserve to complete it with 1-bar builds if they simply can't parse with 2 bars? All players pay the same price for the game, plus and new chapters.

This is Elder Scrolls Online, a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. "multiplayer".

One more time. DPS sharing does nothing better then promote discrimination between players.

FantasticFreddie

"Deserve" has nothing to do with getting difficultachievements. Either you can, or you can't.

heng14rwb17_ESO

No 100k Deeps no TALK