Heavy Attack Builds

jecks33

Schared wrote: »

The damage numbers reached by said build make groups that fully commit to stacking that setup 8 times competetive with damage reached by some of the best players still playing eso.
Now the generally get outperformed by classic setups but the difference in setups has become so close that it is negletible.

there is a 138k Necro parse on youtube dropped today with a meta 2bar build, 37% more than the best HA one bar parse.

I saw the same guy on stream doing 440k in aoe in vKA, his whole group burned the second boss in seconds, everyone had between 106 and 147k dps single target.


This is the reward for playing builds with high risks than oaken-1bar-HA, best dps, best scores, best achievements

Auldwulfe

If Oakensoul was the problem, we'd see it on 2-Handed weapon builds, and Duel Wield builds....
It is ONLY on Lightning Staff with Sergeant's Mail that we see issues, and as has been repeatedly demonstrated, you can do it without Oakensoul, and get the same results.....

Maybe the issue isn't the mythic, but rather the way Lightning Staves interact with other enhancements.

Auldwulfe

Katlefiya

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Maybe the issue isn't the mythic, but rather the way Lightning Staves interact with other enhancements.

Auldwulfe

Just because lightning staves suddenly became a valid alternative to flame staves for certain builds, doesn't mean there is a problem.

blktauna

Soarora wrote: »

I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears people not die and comment on not dying to mechanics they would’ve if they were not wearing oakensoul. Minor protection could be the reason over minor aegis but I can’t argue against minor protection because, like you said, it’s a buff that actually makes sense to have on oakensoul. Dropping minor aegis wouldn’t even effect most people. If they’re still doing mechanics (or not even touching dungeons, trials, and arenas) then they will see no difference.

The only things I can come up with is that they have tuned something in their build to add major mending and that with the minor buff together just keeps them up, The added bit of recovery gives them one extra block, the resistance buff just gets them over the hurdle, things of that sort.

Auldwulfe

Katlefiya wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Maybe the issue isn't the mythic, but rather the way Lightning Staves interact with other enhancements.

Auldwulfe

Just because lightning staves suddenly became a valid alternative to flame staves for certain builds, doesn't mean there is a problem.

I understand that... but let's look, everyone complains about Oakensoul and the lightning staff,.... yet, I KNOW of Oakensoul DK tanks with sword and board, I have met 2Handed weapon players that use Oakensoul, and I have seen Duel Wield players who use Oakensoul... there is NO complaint about that with the usual stamping feet, and tantrums, over how it needs this nerf, or that nerf......

Every Single Complaint about Oakensoul is Oakensoul and a Lightning Staff with Sergeant's Mail.... and I have seen complaints about Lightning Staves and Sergeant's Mail where the person didn't have Oakensoul......

Maybe the complaint is something else, but people are confused and thinking it's just Oakensoul.......

Auldwulfe

katorga

Auldwulfe wrote: »

If Oakensoul was the problem, we'd see it on 2-Handed weapon builds, and Duel Wield builds....
It is ONLY on Lightning Staff with Sergeant's Mail that we see issues, and as has been repeatedly demonstrated, you can do it without Oakensoul, and get the same results.....

Maybe the issue isn't the mythic, but rather the way Lightning Staves interact with other enhancements.

Auldwulfe

To be honest, I don't understand why doing 25-30% less damage than the top parses is a problem in the first place.

Nilandia

Wise_Will wrote: »

Haven't seen any HA Builds in vRG HM and vDSR HM

jecks33 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

The damage numbers reached by said build make groups that fully commit to stacking that setup 8 times competetive with damage reached by some of the best players still playing eso.
Now the generally get outperformed by classic setups but the difference in setups has become so close that it is negletible.

there is a 138k Necro parse on youtube dropped today with a meta 2bar build, 37% more than the best HA one bar parse.

I saw the same guy on stream doing 440k in aoe in vKA, his whole group burned the second boss in seconds, everyone had between 106 and 147k dps single target.


This is the reward for playing builds with high risks than oaken-1bar-HA, best dps, best scores, best achievements

If you're referring to CPCharles' stamcro parse, that is using the PTS version of runecarver's blaze that did not go into the live patch. The version on the live servers does not do nearly so much damage, so I would not use that parse as a point of comparison.

axi

katorga wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

If Oakensoul was the problem, we'd see it on 2-Handed weapon builds, and Duel Wield builds....
It is ONLY on Lightning Staff with Sergeant's Mail that we see issues, and as has been repeatedly demonstrated, you can do it without Oakensoul, and get the same results.....

Maybe the issue isn't the mythic, but rather the way Lightning Staves interact with other enhancements.

Auldwulfe

To be honest, I don't understand why doing 25-30% less damage than the top parses is a problem in the first place.

Not everything is a dummy parse. Funnily enough there are real fights where oakensoul beats regular two bar rotations in terms of DPS. For example in update 36 logs for vAS HM in top 10 DPS values there is 7 one bar heavy attack users with oakensoul and 1st and 2nd place are being taken by them. In real fights the distance between oakensoul and regular builds may sometimes shorten a lot because while oakensoul build have lower base single target damage output it have higher AoE, higher defense, better sustain , simplier rotation and comfot of being a range setup so in every fight where these features start to play important role, oakensoul setup starts to come closer to regular two bar setup in terms of DPS and in some cases may even become better.

This is also why oakensoul is so strong and popular in mid game right now. Because for less experienced players, mentioned earlier oakensoul benefits provide more DPS gain than two bar rotations could.

Turtle_Bot

Ahh, yes, oakensoul heavy attacks overperform in this one specific unique (and very old content now) trial that is designed completely differently from every other dungeon/trial in the game.

That's like saying that non heavy attack sorcerers are completely fine because they parse the same as a DK on a single target trial dummy that provides all the buffs/debuffs/sustain you could ever need for free and don't have to account for the cleave that you need in the vast majority of actual content.

These limited and extremely niche examples being used to attempt at getting builds people don't like nerfed are becoming a real issue here, no wonder the devs don't come to the forums if all they see is "I don't like this build/set/class/ability, nerf it now because everyone should be forced to play the same way I play".

axi

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Ahh, yes, oakensoul heavy attacks overperform in this one specific unique (and very old content now) trial that is designed completely differently from every other dungeon/trial in the game.

That's like saying that non heavy attack sorcerers are completely fine because they parse the same as a DK on a single target trial dummy that provides all the buffs/debuffs/sustain you could ever need for free and don't have to account for the cleave that you need in the vast majority of actual content.

These limited and extremely niche examples being used to attempt at getting builds people don't like nerfed are becoming a real issue here, no wonder the devs don't come to the forums if all they see is "I don't like this build/set/class/ability, nerf it now because everyone should be forced to play the same way I play".

Wow this post is I think is the biggest example of missing the point I've seen in a while.

Please show me excatly where I said that oakensoul one bar heavy attack setups overperform, that I don't like them or that they should be nerfed. All I said was that judging one bar heavy attacks effectiveness based on a dummy parses is not very productive way of approaching this subject and provided example and explanation why.

I understand You like that setup and don't want it to be nerfed but panically defending it even when it's not attacked is kinda silly.

Schared

As the new dungeons recently released I believe this post has become relevant again. When doing the 4 man content I was playing a on standard setup. To test things out I rotated between Magplar, Stamcro and MagDK while the other DD in my group was rocking an oakensorc. As you may be able to tell all the setups I attempted in there where largely melee and as such where locked out of dpsing for large periods of the fight. When our supports kept everything steady my builds where more than competetive DPS wise but as I mentioned a myriad of times in this posts history it is the kind of damage aswell as the tankiness that is problematic.

Teleporting Dungeon bosses or passive cleave fights make a classic setup recast the aoe's and lose dps while the sorc is heavyttacking. On trash fights the damage depended on if there was 1 large add that could be heavied for an extended period of time.
Additionally some mechanics are just blatantly ignorable as a oakensorc - namely the spider-webstring mechanic that stuns a player and the other one has to be broken free can be ignored entirely as the oakensorc has so many defensive buffs that it cannot oneshot the player.
As dungeon tanks generally run more aggressive setups than raid-tanks we had instances while blind running the dungeons where the tank died first to raidwide damage instead of the dds.

Alas shouting into the void~

Katlefiya

Well equipped chars can ignore many mechanics in four man content - that is not something that is only possible with the Oakensoul ring.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Auldwulfe

Oakensoul is the clickbait flavor of the month, and so many people are falling for it.....
Soon, we can hear how it cures blindness, and fixes baldness..... just make an Oakensoul build......

It is a useful tool of early players learning HOW the buffs and things work... it doesn't replace knowledge of mechanics, and it doesn't fix bad team play, or bad understanding of how things work... and those existed for a LONG time before Oakensoul was even in the game --- I had a build that ONLY used 3 buttons, did 85K dps, an used identical front and back bars, because I didn't want to swap, and I used it BEFORE HIGH ISLE was even announced... and am using it now..... still works, no Oakensoul, but it does exploint the synergy between lightning staves and HA attack sets......

RIght now, content creators are money hunting..... U35 hurt them a lot ..... they need something, and the Oakenphobes will click it to prove their greatest fear of something as new and scary as "change"... all while living in terror of getting Oakencooties.

And, meanwhile, DK go Brrrrr .... NB's still gank, and all the other classes are getting left hanging, so that the Arcanist can, hopefully, sell the next expansion.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

I think the biggest disconnect here, though, is that the people against it, don't use it, and have NO IDEA, really, of what they are talking about. They refuse to use it, and rely on what Billy Bob overhead from his sister / wife from her brother /boyfriend Jimmy Joe.

So, let's look at what it really does...... all the requirements in DLC and grinding have already been covered.... so let's talk.
I have used it as a healer... why? It let me keep up with the zerging duel bar dungeon rushers in Pug dungeons..... as I got really tired of being called a "Fake Healer" because you can't heal people through walls, and when you have 2 DPS people in 2 different spots...... well, there you go. That was the first place I actually used it..... then I decided to try it on my Duel Wield Templar.... just because I was getting frustrated with that character, as I couldn't get a good style for playing him in.... and yeah, it sort of helped, as long as All I wanted to do was flurry along.....so I took it off, as it was TOO limiting.
Most buff skills also give you effects.... with Oakensoul, you get the buff, but NONE of the effects that would also go along with it..... and with the right combo of sets, you CAN get, pretty much, everything Oakensoul gives, and STILL have 10 skill slots to work with.

Tried it on a nightblade... didn't even finish the first test run in the delve I was testing it in, before I took it off.....
My DK Fire Mage... nope
MY Warden Frost Mage... nope
I do use it, occasionally, on my DK Tank.... because in PUG dungeons, not everyone bothers to work with people, or bring their own buffs... and again, it gave me enough support there, but also limits me to ONE taunt... and a very small pool of skills.... so I either have to stop between fights, if I can, to swap to other skills, or must rely on being a one trick pony, and hope it works.

So, where does it seem to be overpowered....
One combo is the ONLY place it is an issue ... and that is with lightning staves, and heavy attack armor sets ....
AND, you can get the same exact abuse without it.... many of us have proven that, repeatedly.... and it is ridiculously easy to do so. For that matter, I can take a SORC, and only EVER use 3 buttons, and one of those, only once every 33 seconds, and get HIGHER DPS, that I get using the Oakensoul on that build... as well as a unique buff that you can't get from Oakensoul.

As another person put it, DPS is all that matters... well, I can hit HIGHER DPS with LESS work, without Oakensoul.....and do it while making two identical bars ... so even if I am swapping, there is nothing gained......

The issue has NOTHING to do with Oakensoul.... it's being used as an excuse..... because it's "NEW and SCARY"

What it does do, is allow people to come to terms with HOW the buffs work in game, and learn how things interact ... I learned more about set combinations, after I practiced with it, for a bit, than I ever knew before...... because NOW, I could see how those buffs worked in action.

The reason that people claim Oakensoul users DON'T have to manage resources is because NO HA style has to worry about resources.... take a bow, go hold your mouse button..... or a 2H weapon.... you get stamina BACK with each swing..... if that's all you do, you don't worry about resources..... pretty simple, to be honest.

And Empower is not the problem, as it would then be showing up with EVERY type of heavy attack. overpowering them, not just lightning..... and we are not seeing duel wields running around relying on empower, despite being the highest DPS weapon style... or fire staves, or ice staves, etc.....

The issue is that lightning is both single target AND AOE..
Sometimes the splash damage seems to hit a huge area, and other times, it doesn't hit the guy touching the target (I assume that is positional lag), but it is reliable, by itself in both situations.....

The abuse is strictly in the interaction with lightning staves and sets that boost heavy attacks ... but really isn't out of line with people combining Pillars of Nirn with other sets ..... or ball groups.... or Mara's Balm.... and so on.

What we have are horse and buggy people, angry that the car owner doesn't need to do all the maintenance to care for a horse.... I can imagine what hunter gatherers, using sticks to dig would think of modern engineered shovels......

Will it be abused?.... history shows that some people WILL abuse anything, given the opportunity.... look at medications.

And, honestly, I think the reason it's the rage with videos on youtube has NOTHING to do with how it works, or not....
The people hating on Oakensoul are falling for clickbait.... the "influencers" are suddenly realizing what HA players already knew... and hyping it to idiotic proportions in a bid to get back viewers they lost with U35...... and on some of these videos, seeing where things jump, I wonder how MANY edits they did to get what they claim they did.

At this point, nerfing Oakensoul would guarantee that the exodus this time, would make the U35 Exodus look like a leaky faucet next to an, in use, firehose. If we are really honest, we are playing a game that has been in BETA for nearly a decade..... with huge sweeping combat changes, at least once a year over it's history... and that has more and more competition popping up every month.

The game has really NEVER had combat balance (DK go Brrrrr), but I remember when Templars were king...... and NB ganking has yet to go out of style..... feel bad for Necros and Sorcs, right now, because they are being pushed into HA styles to keep up...... but that's probably so the Arcanist can sell the next expansion.

In the end, I would imagine a LOT of people are using it because, right now, it works..... not because they specifically want to. I would LOVE to have my Sorc out there, being a master of the magics in Tamriel.. tossing "Enemies Explode" from Oblivion, and so on... but they tied magic to "wizzy sticks" that anyone can wiggle for effect.... and the class skills are kind of meh..... and due to console limitations... you can't carry that many, anyways... combined with poor design choices when it comes to pet management.

If I truly wanted to be a damage king and play god... I'd go DK, with the lighting staff with fire glyph to help burn... 2 bars, and really lean into that whole burning focus..... imagine using Ash Cloud with it's 18 second snare at 70%, to control choke points, a quick firebreath to get the burning started, and then the lighting staff, on all those close together, snared targets..... and Occult Overload thrown in for a little extra love and joy.........Even with the change to Helping Hands, which a lot of us never relied on, much, anyways... you can STILL use a glyph to make Ashen Cloud a FREE DPS Snare that applies status...... and you worry about this single mythic......

Auldwulfe

Billium813

the ravenous defense of this one mythic is disturbing imo. Any compliment of oakensoul gets 100 likes, yet any, single critique gets piled on by players, shouted down with no discourse or discussion, and the poster gets PMs telling them to shut up. [snip] It's kinda insane tbh

[edited for inappropriate content]

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

the ravenous defense of this one mythic is disturbing imo. Any compliment of oakensoul gets 100 likes, yet any, single critique gets piled on by players, shouted down with no discourse or discussion, and the poster gets PMs telling them to shut up. [snip] It's kinda insane tbh

The rabid attacks against one item in the game is disturbing IMO..... it goes both ways. At this point, arguing about this ring is tantamount to arguing with the extremely religious about plants created by their own deity, in their own belief system. It's kind of insane TBH.

Maybe because it's not the mythic .... as noted, you can do the exact same thing without it, and do it more easily, as you don't have to go grinding for all the leads and parts......

There is an issue, but everyone screaming about Oakensoul is clouding that with noise......

The big issue is how Empower - whether from a ring, the mage guild skill, the Queen's Elegance set, etc... interacts with sets that enhance heavy attacks, and the way lightning staves work......

I have seen the clickbait videos for this Oakenbuild, or that one, done by the people online, in hope of getting back some of their pre-U35 viewers.... but they all suffer from the lack of a second bar, and rely on people NOT countering it... or specific situations to maintain the advantage....
We aren't seeing Oaken-Maul 2H builds, or Oaken-Dagger Duel wield builds, because those are automatically going to suffer, due to lack of secondary bar, and the NEED to use multiple skills to make them work.

The current meta is DK with Duel wield front, and 2H back ... can't do that one with Oakensoul, as you lose a bar.....

But, I can make a Lightning Staff HA build that matches Oakensoul builds for damage, and uses only 3 buttons.... and mirror front and back bars on it, with NO LOSS of any utility....

And I can do the exact same playstyle with that build.... and even lean further into the combo, and make it much more dangerous than Oakensoul builds.....

The issue is very much different than the Oakenphobes think it is.

Auldwulfe

[edited to remove quote]

Billium813

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

the ravenous defense of this one mythic is disturbing imo. Any compliment of oakensoul gets 100 likes, yet any, single critique gets piled on by players, shouted down with no discourse or discussion, and the poster gets PMs telling them to shut up. [snip] It's kinda insane tbh

The rabid attacks against one item in the game is disturbing IMO..... it goes both ways. At this point, arguing about this ring is tantamount to arguing with the extremely religious about plants created by their own deity, in their own belief system. It's kind of insane TBH.

Maybe because it's not the mythic .... as noted, you can do the exact same thing without it, and do it more easily, as you don't have to go grinding for all the leads and parts......

There is an issue, but everyone screaming about Oakensoul is clouding that with noise......

The big issue is how Empower - whether from a ring, the mage guild skill, the Queen's Elegance set, etc... interacts with sets that enhance heavy attacks, and the way lightning staves work......

I have seen the clickbait videos for this Oakenbuild, or that one, done by the people online, in hope of getting back some of their pre-U35 viewers.... but they all suffer from the lack of a second bar, and rely on people NOT countering it... or specific situations to maintain the advantage....
We aren't seeing Oaken-Maul 2H builds, or Oaken-Dagger Duel wield builds, because those are automatically going to suffer, due to lack of secondary bar, and the NEED to use multiple skills to make them work.

The current meta is DK with Duel wield front, and 2H back ... can't do that one with Oakensoul, as you lose a bar.....

But, I can make a Lightning Staff HA build that matches Oakensoul builds for damage, and uses only 3 buttons.... and mirror front and back bars on it, with NO LOSS of any utility....

And I can do the exact same playstyle with that build.... and even lean further into the combo, and make it much more dangerous than Oakensoul builds.....

The issue is very much different than the Oakenphobes think it is.

Auldwulfe

[edited to remove quote]

I appreciate you proving my point with your detailed, rambling response that immediately received likes

blktauna

Its not the ring, mate, its the staff combos.

I have a healer templar on lightening heavy that I do Maelstrom on. Its a single bar HA build and no oaken. Been doing it for ages. Many of my pvp setups are 2 one bar builds because swap fails constantly and I don't like being caught out.

One bar lightening HA is hardly new. Deadly and Sergeants work wonders with the right pots and channels

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

the ravenous defense of this one mythic is disturbing imo. Any compliment of oakensoul gets 100 likes, yet any, single critique gets piled on by players, shouted down with no discourse or discussion, and the poster gets PMs telling them to shut up. [snip] It's kinda insane tbh

[edited for inappropriate content]

I mean I'm not even sure how that's disturbing. Oakensoul helped a lot of people have fun and apparently hurt some people's feelings just by allowing people to enjoy the game in another way.

Basically anyone hating on Oakensoul is running up to a fun party and saying the guy who provided the mansion, bought everyone food/drinks, plays the best music in effect sucks because he makes it too easy to have fun.

So saying people are on Oakensouls side because it makes things more fun for them of course results in people defending having fun. The disturbing part is that we're talking about PVE and controlling someone else's experience because it doesn't jive with what makes you happy.

I can see this in PVP because at the end you might get squatted and whispered by the person that just beat you, I get it. With oakensoul someone could just choose to play the game, live and let live and complete the content and be just fine.

Now if you're talking about players that behave a certain way when they wear oakensoul well that's just an issue with that player and their approach to the game maybe not being one that you like. Other than that, as long as they are playing properly and performing their role, eh who cares. And even then if you want to have a particular shared experience that's what guilds are for. Join people that want to play the way you do and it's all good.

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

Its not the ring, mate, its the staff combos.

I have a healer templar on lightening heavy that I do Maelstrom on. Its a single bar HA build and no oaken. Been doing it for ages. Many of my pvp setups are 2 one bar builds because swap fails constantly and I don't like being caught out.

One bar lightening HA is hardly new. Deadly and Sergeants work wonders with the right pots and channels

It's the ring because people don't mind if you have Oakensoul dps and survivability, they just want to see you work hard while playing a video game lol ........IN PVE !!!!!!!!!

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Its not the ring, mate, its the staff combos.

I have a healer templar on lightening heavy that I do Maelstrom on. Its a single bar HA build and no oaken. Been doing it for ages. Many of my pvp setups are 2 one bar builds because swap fails constantly and I don't like being caught out.

One bar lightening HA is hardly new. Deadly and Sergeants work wonders with the right pots and channels

It's the ring because people don't mind if you have Oakensoul dps and survivability, they just want to see you work hard while playing a video game lol ........IN PVE !!!!!!!!!

Honestly, the ONLY way someone else using Oakensoul has any effect on another player is that, if they are happy, and subscibe, they help keep the servers up for the non-user..... that's it.

The only people who have any reason to be upset are gatekeepers and people charging for carries..... they'll have to learn another way to exploit players.

And since Oakensoul cannot even be used before a person hits 50/160.... no matter how much grinding they did on antiquities...it really doesn't stifle the learning, as it is expected you are pretty much set, once you hit that.

Auldwulfe

Schared

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

Schared

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I think the biggest disconnect here, though, is that the people against it, don't use it, and have NO IDEA, really, of what they are talking about. They refuse to use it, and rely on what Billy Bob overhead from his sister / wife from her brother /boyfriend Jimmy Joe.

So, let's look at what it really does...... all the requirements in DLC and grinding have already been covered.... so let's talk.
I have used it as a healer... why? It let me keep up with the zerging duel bar dungeon rushers in Pug dungeons..... as I got really tired of being called a "Fake Healer" because you can't heal people through walls, and when you have 2 DPS people in 2 different spots...... well, there you go. That was the first place I actually used it..... then I decided to try it on my Duel Wield Templar.... just because I was getting frustrated with that character, as I couldn't get a good style for playing him in.... and yeah, it sort of helped, as long as All I wanted to do was flurry along.....so I took it off, as it was TOO limiting.
Most buff skills also give you effects.... with Oakensoul, you get the buff, but NONE of the effects that would also go along with it..... and with the right combo of sets, you CAN get, pretty much, everything Oakensoul gives, and STILL have 10 skill slots to work with.

Tried it on a nightblade... didn't even finish the first test run in the delve I was testing it in, before I took it off.....
My DK Fire Mage... nope
MY Warden Frost Mage... nope
I do use it, occasionally, on my DK Tank.... because in PUG dungeons, not everyone bothers to work with people, or bring their own buffs... and again, it gave me enough support there, but also limits me to ONE taunt... and a very small pool of skills.... so I either have to stop between fights, if I can, to swap to other skills, or must rely on being a one trick pony, and hope it works.

So, where does it seem to be overpowered....
One combo is the ONLY place it is an issue ... and that is with lightning staves, and heavy attack armor sets ....
AND, you can get the same exact abuse without it.... many of us have proven that, repeatedly.... and it is ridiculously easy to do so. For that matter, I can take a SORC, and only EVER use 3 buttons, and one of those, only once every 33 seconds, and get HIGHER DPS, that I get using the Oakensoul on that build... as well as a unique buff that you can't get from Oakensoul.

As another person put it, DPS is all that matters... well, I can hit HIGHER DPS with LESS work, without Oakensoul.....and do it while making two identical bars ... so even if I am swapping, there is nothing gained......

The issue has NOTHING to do with Oakensoul.... it's being used as an excuse..... because it's "NEW and SCARY"

What it does do, is allow people to come to terms with HOW the buffs work in game, and learn how things interact ... I learned more about set combinations, after I practiced with it, for a bit, than I ever knew before...... because NOW, I could see how those buffs worked in action.

The reason that people claim Oakensoul users DON'T have to manage resources is because NO HA style has to worry about resources.... take a bow, go hold your mouse button..... or a 2H weapon.... you get stamina BACK with each swing..... if that's all you do, you don't worry about resources..... pretty simple, to be honest.

And Empower is not the problem, as it would then be showing up with EVERY type of heavy attack. overpowering them, not just lightning..... and we are not seeing duel wields running around relying on empower, despite being the highest DPS weapon style... or fire staves, or ice staves, etc.....

The issue is that lightning is both single target AND AOE..
Sometimes the splash damage seems to hit a huge area, and other times, it doesn't hit the guy touching the target (I assume that is positional lag), but it is reliable, by itself in both situations.....

The abuse is strictly in the interaction with lightning staves and sets that boost heavy attacks ... but really isn't out of line with people combining Pillars of Nirn with other sets ..... or ball groups.... or Mara's Balm.... and so on.

What we have are horse and buggy people, angry that the car owner doesn't need to do all the maintenance to care for a horse.... I can imagine what hunter gatherers, using sticks to dig would think of modern engineered shovels......

Will it be abused?.... history shows that some people WILL abuse anything, given the opportunity.... look at medications.

And, honestly, I think the reason it's the rage with videos on youtube has NOTHING to do with how it works, or not....
The people hating on Oakensoul are falling for clickbait.... the "influencers" are suddenly realizing what HA players already knew... and hyping it to idiotic proportions in a bid to get back viewers they lost with U35...... and on some of these videos, seeing where things jump, I wonder how MANY edits they did to get what they claim they did.

At this point, nerfing Oakensoul would guarantee that the exodus this time, would make the U35 Exodus look like a leaky faucet next to an, in use, firehose. If we are really honest, we are playing a game that has been in BETA for nearly a decade..... with huge sweeping combat changes, at least once a year over it's history... and that has more and more competition popping up every month.

The game has really NEVER had combat balance (DK go Brrrrr), but I remember when Templars were king...... and NB ganking has yet to go out of style..... feel bad for Necros and Sorcs, right now, because they are being pushed into HA styles to keep up...... but that's probably so the Arcanist can sell the next expansion.

In the end, I would imagine a LOT of people are using it because, right now, it works..... not because they specifically want to. I would LOVE to have my Sorc out there, being a master of the magics in Tamriel.. tossing "Enemies Explode" from Oblivion, and so on... but they tied magic to "wizzy sticks" that anyone can wiggle for effect.... and the class skills are kind of meh..... and due to console limitations... you can't carry that many, anyways... combined with poor design choices when it comes to pet management.

If I truly wanted to be a damage king and play god... I'd go DK, with the lighting staff with fire glyph to help burn... 2 bars, and really lean into that whole burning focus..... imagine using Ash Cloud with it's 18 second snare at 70%, to control choke points, a quick firebreath to get the burning started, and then the lighting staff, on all those close together, snared targets..... and Occult Overload thrown in for a little extra love and joy.........Even with the change to Helping Hands, which a lot of us never relied on, much, anyways... you can STILL use a glyph to make Ashen Cloud a FREE DPS Snare that applies status...... and you worry about this single mythic......

Auldwulfe

Your adressing none of the discussed points and instead bring up different issues with the game that are not relevant to the post. Oakensoul is a bandaid applied to a myriad of issues.
Like you clearly have problems with the dynamic between players, the social aspect and gearing in general. Iam sure there are some good points inbetween but introducing something that umbrella's mayor issues instead of trying to fix them one by one is like Alexander the Great hacking the gordian knot apart instead of trying to dissolve it. It is not elegant, it does not preserve anything and it lays the groundworks for the next - even stronger - thing that in turn attempts to fix oakensoul/heavy attack builds.

And once more - even though I have mentioned it to a point of redundancy - damage, is but one of the points that is relevant. I assume everyone focusses on said point as they are able for the first time to perform said numbers - but perhaps iam reaching here. Getting "good" at parsing takes 2 hours tops.

Schared

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Its not the ring, mate, its the staff combos.

I have a healer templar on lightening heavy that I do Maelstrom on. Its a single bar HA build and no oaken. Been doing it for ages. Many of my pvp setups are 2 one bar builds because swap fails constantly and I don't like being caught out.

One bar lightening HA is hardly new. Deadly and Sergeants work wonders with the right pots and channels

It's the ring because people don't mind if you have Oakensoul dps and survivability, they just want to see you work hard while playing a video game lol ........IN PVE !!!!!!!!!

Honestly, the ONLY way someone else using Oakensoul has any effect on another player is that, if they are happy, and subscibe, they help keep the servers up for the non-user..... that's it.

The only people who have any reason to be upset are gatekeepers and people charging for carries..... they'll have to learn another way to exploit players.

And since Oakensoul cannot even be used before a person hits 50/160.... no matter how much grinding they did on antiquities...it really doesn't stifle the learning, as it is expected you are pretty much set, once you hit that.

Auldwulfe

ESO has been losing players overall and in comparison - therefore the argument appears backwards. Data based on steamcharts - Covid-Wave.

PS you do not need to sign every one of your posts, if you look at the top left your name appears there for everyone to see

Schared

Schared wrote: »

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

Just attached to this - the barswapping no debuff thing has been adressed but this already introduces the issue i mentioned in my original post - the game now gets balanced around the mistakes.

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

ESO has been losing players overall and in comparison - therefore the argument appears backwards. Data based on steamcharts - Covid-Wave.

PS you do not need to sign every one of your posts, if you look at the top left your name appears there for everyone to see

@Schared And yet somehow they keep finding the money to produce new content. Yes the game is losing players, all games lose an gain new players but I get what you are trying to say by pointing out steamcharts, however the game isn't on only one platform so that's not a complete picture of the user base or subs. Not saying either of you are right but that there's a bigger picture consider.

So regarding the signature. Well that's actually a setting this forum allows you to automate, generally most forums do. You can also put anything in there and it will just auto populate at the end of your post. I'm going to sign this one Bush. I don't need to but I choose to. So are you saying you think people shouldn't sign their post or use signatures, or that you just don't think people should use their name as their signature? I mean after all there are just other ways that people communicate other than the region or locale you might be used to. Did you consider this in your suggestions on how people do or don't sign their posts?



-BUSH

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

Just attached to this - the barswapping no debuff thing has been adressed but this already introduces the issue i mentioned in my original post - the game now gets balanced around the mistakes.

@Schared

So honestly I think I get what you want the game to be but this is not that if we judge things based on the direction of the game.

But set that aside for a moment, who was hurt by this? You say abuse this setup but I don't see where the abuse comes in. They cleared the content and got a good score. Other groups could do the same thing but if it's in the game, they want to go farm it, put the builds together and run them then what's the point of worrying about it?

Can another group of players do this or better without Oakensoul? The answer is yes so it's not like people have to play this type of setup, they just choose to and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with that?

Billium813

Schared wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I think the biggest disconnect here, though, is that the people against it, don't use it, and have NO IDEA, really, of what they are talking about. They refuse to use it, and rely on what Billy Bob overhead from his sister / wife from her brother /boyfriend Jimmy Joe.

So, let's look at what it really does...... all the requirements in DLC and grinding have already been covered.... so let's talk.
I have used it as a healer... why? It let me keep up with the zerging duel bar dungeon rushers in Pug dungeons..... as I got really tired of being called a "Fake Healer" because you can't heal people through walls, and when you have 2 DPS people in 2 different spots...... well, there you go. That was the first place I actually used it..... then I decided to try it on my Duel Wield Templar.... just because I was getting frustrated with that character, as I couldn't get a good style for playing him in.... and yeah, it sort of helped, as long as All I wanted to do was flurry along.....so I took it off, as it was TOO limiting.
Most buff skills also give you effects.... with Oakensoul, you get the buff, but NONE of the effects that would also go along with it..... and with the right combo of sets, you CAN get, pretty much, everything Oakensoul gives, and STILL have 10 skill slots to work with.

Tried it on a nightblade... didn't even finish the first test run in the delve I was testing it in, before I took it off.....
My DK Fire Mage... nope
MY Warden Frost Mage... nope
I do use it, occasionally, on my DK Tank.... because in PUG dungeons, not everyone bothers to work with people, or bring their own buffs... and again, it gave me enough support there, but also limits me to ONE taunt... and a very small pool of skills.... so I either have to stop between fights, if I can, to swap to other skills, or must rely on being a one trick pony, and hope it works.

So, where does it seem to be overpowered....
One combo is the ONLY place it is an issue ... and that is with lightning staves, and heavy attack armor sets ....
AND, you can get the same exact abuse without it.... many of us have proven that, repeatedly.... and it is ridiculously easy to do so. For that matter, I can take a SORC, and only EVER use 3 buttons, and one of those, only once every 33 seconds, and get HIGHER DPS, that I get using the Oakensoul on that build... as well as a unique buff that you can't get from Oakensoul.

As another person put it, DPS is all that matters... well, I can hit HIGHER DPS with LESS work, without Oakensoul.....and do it while making two identical bars ... so even if I am swapping, there is nothing gained......

The issue has NOTHING to do with Oakensoul.... it's being used as an excuse..... because it's "NEW and SCARY"

What it does do, is allow people to come to terms with HOW the buffs work in game, and learn how things interact ... I learned more about set combinations, after I practiced with it, for a bit, than I ever knew before...... because NOW, I could see how those buffs worked in action.

The reason that people claim Oakensoul users DON'T have to manage resources is because NO HA style has to worry about resources.... take a bow, go hold your mouse button..... or a 2H weapon.... you get stamina BACK with each swing..... if that's all you do, you don't worry about resources..... pretty simple, to be honest.

And Empower is not the problem, as it would then be showing up with EVERY type of heavy attack. overpowering them, not just lightning..... and we are not seeing duel wields running around relying on empower, despite being the highest DPS weapon style... or fire staves, or ice staves, etc.....

The issue is that lightning is both single target AND AOE..
Sometimes the splash damage seems to hit a huge area, and other times, it doesn't hit the guy touching the target (I assume that is positional lag), but it is reliable, by itself in both situations.....

The abuse is strictly in the interaction with lightning staves and sets that boost heavy attacks ... but really isn't out of line with people combining Pillars of Nirn with other sets ..... or ball groups.... or Mara's Balm.... and so on.

What we have are horse and buggy people, angry that the car owner doesn't need to do all the maintenance to care for a horse.... I can imagine what hunter gatherers, using sticks to dig would think of modern engineered shovels......

Will it be abused?.... history shows that some people WILL abuse anything, given the opportunity.... look at medications.

And, honestly, I think the reason it's the rage with videos on youtube has NOTHING to do with how it works, or not....
The people hating on Oakensoul are falling for clickbait.... the "influencers" are suddenly realizing what HA players already knew... and hyping it to idiotic proportions in a bid to get back viewers they lost with U35...... and on some of these videos, seeing where things jump, I wonder how MANY edits they did to get what they claim they did.

At this point, nerfing Oakensoul would guarantee that the exodus this time, would make the U35 Exodus look like a leaky faucet next to an, in use, firehose. If we are really honest, we are playing a game that has been in BETA for nearly a decade..... with huge sweeping combat changes, at least once a year over it's history... and that has more and more competition popping up every month.

The game has really NEVER had combat balance (DK go Brrrrr), but I remember when Templars were king...... and NB ganking has yet to go out of style..... feel bad for Necros and Sorcs, right now, because they are being pushed into HA styles to keep up...... but that's probably so the Arcanist can sell the next expansion.

In the end, I would imagine a LOT of people are using it because, right now, it works..... not because they specifically want to. I would LOVE to have my Sorc out there, being a master of the magics in Tamriel.. tossing "Enemies Explode" from Oblivion, and so on... but they tied magic to "wizzy sticks" that anyone can wiggle for effect.... and the class skills are kind of meh..... and due to console limitations... you can't carry that many, anyways... combined with poor design choices when it comes to pet management.

If I truly wanted to be a damage king and play god... I'd go DK, with the lighting staff with fire glyph to help burn... 2 bars, and really lean into that whole burning focus..... imagine using Ash Cloud with it's 18 second snare at 70%, to control choke points, a quick firebreath to get the burning started, and then the lighting staff, on all those close together, snared targets..... and Occult Overload thrown in for a little extra love and joy.........Even with the change to Helping Hands, which a lot of us never relied on, much, anyways... you can STILL use a glyph to make Ashen Cloud a FREE DPS Snare that applies status...... and you worry about this single mythic......

Auldwulfe

Your adressing none of the discussed points and instead bring up different issues with the game that are not relevant to the post. Oakensoul is a bandaid applied to a myriad of issues.
Like you clearly have problems with the dynamic between players, the social aspect and gearing in general. Iam sure there are some good points inbetween but introducing something that umbrella's mayor issues instead of trying to fix them one by one is like Alexander the Great hacking the gordian knot apart instead of trying to dissolve it. It is not elegant, it does not preserve anything and it lays the groundworks for the next - even stronger - thing that in turn attempts to fix oakensoul/heavy attack builds.

And once more - even though I have mentioned it to a point of redundancy - damage, is but one of the points that is relevant. I assume everyone focusses on said point as they are able for the first time to perform said numbers - but perhaps iam reaching here. Getting "good" at parsing takes 2 hours tops.

Oakensoul is a gallon of gasoline, if you throw it on any flame you're gonna get a roaring fire in seconds. I do think there is an issue with Oakensoul being heads/tails stronger than any other mythic in the game... but it doesn't seem to be the root cause of the inundation of HA builds and their insane damage atm; it's Lightning Staves base damage, range attack, unique channel damage combined with HA damage sets, and AOE cleave. It makes for an all around perfect combination that solves all DPS situations flawlessly. Oakensoul just comes along and does what it does: cranks the volume up to 12.

I think if we fixed HA sets to only apply buffs to the final hit, scaled back Lightning Staff damage a bit so that it isn't the single best single target DPS staff and to account for the AOE benefits, and buffed Inferno Staff so that it's damage was more comparable to Bow in the single target damage catagory (maybe even a bit less for flame damage synergies?), then we would be in a healthier place.

Katlefiya

Schared wrote: »

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

First of all, no one is abusing anything here. This setup is no exploit.
Second. Cloudrest is a 5 year old trial. Why do you still care?