Heavy Attack Builds

maxjapank

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

Bushido2513

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I guess, that while I like 1 bar HA builds, I like them no better, nor worse than ANY other build .... I'll run with the guy that does only light attacks from his bow...... as long as they are doing something, they are part of the team, and I am more than happy to work with it...... I think that's why the argument grates on me..... it seems silly to want to block other people from achieving something that they found a way to do... rather than accept that more options are available.


Auldwulfe

I agree for the most part and think that's just a small minded person trying to tear someone else down rather than just realize that ZOS could make better content that caters to various skill levels.

I don't care if a heavy attack build just looks in the direction of some content and just watches it melt. I just want my challenging content where I can go feel like I really built up to the win. There's room for both when the setting is right.


Now I also do support a proper rewards system. There just really needs to be something rewarding for that player that is willing to push it to the limit. There should also be decent rewards for those that just want to enjoy a chill time heavy attacking.

Currently everyone only has the choice to get the same rewards and that's just a little off putting when you want to put work in and advance.

Billium813

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

You're being dismissive of my wishes! What makes your opinion more important than mine?

maxjapank

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Billium813

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Offering nothing new? I wrote a breakdown of Oakensoul, going over every single buff to voice an opinion on balancing it. I tried to remain completely subjective through the whole thing. If you have issues with what I wrote, then explain yourself in some way other than "I no like, so bad". Somehow I doubt you read it though and I also doubt you would admit to any legitimate complaints.

Auldwulfe

Lixen wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Thing is, you already have that... and if they don't want to learn the LA-weaving builds, they don't.... and that doesn't make the high-end raid community any bigger, either....... but, giving people a taste of a bit of what they can get past mid-point will do more to incentivize that, than watching them all go play Guild Wars 2.

I'll use myself as an example --- first started playing, got to level 10, and it said I could do Spindleclutch... so I took my happy self in my mix of Belfira Island armor, and a couple other pieces I found, and went on in..... and I fed the spiders ..... no fun.
Now, if I hadn't had someone to show me a better way, help with a couple of set items, etc... I would have capped there, pretty much.... yeah, gone back to questing, and maybe got some overland stuff.... but I would not have thought to try a dungeon again for a long time, if ever... or maybe even got bored and went off to ANY of the many other games that are far more intuitive and instructive on getting people to upper stuff.

Use the HA one bars as a staging area ... it gets people up to where they can do enough content to start getting the better armor sets.... invite them in, and then SHOW them what a proper 2 bar build can do, and looks like ..... And then let them use their current spot to progress.... if they don't, then they never would have, anyways, even if you took the HA one bar away.... they would have stagnated somewhere along the way in overland.


Auldwulfe

I don't have an issue with easy entry to difficult content. there is a big difficulty jump in this game from overland to normal/vet/vet hm dungeon/trials, and a smoother transition would've helped, but I don't think bumping the casual players with an I-Win-Button to give them a taste is healthy in the long run.
I don't have an issue with the power level either. I think increasing the damage cap of HA-builds based on skill (not something that currently exists in the game and not based on proc/mythic/cp) helps the divide on this issue. Currently it's basically one best performing setup for every situation (you may change couple of skills and one monster set piece in different raids/pulls or switch med body to light body, but that's it) and mastering it takes few minutes. Making HA-build more powerful with complexity (not necessarily with more button mashing, can move to a good 2-bar HA setup) makes them comparable with LA-weaving builds in content and more rewarding for the players. Increasing the skill and damage cap of HA builds also makes it easier to transition to LA-weaving builds and makes them less boring for someone like me who has been playing and enjoying LA-weaving builds.
I have an oakensorc and sometimes use it for weekly arenas but I don't play it for majority of the content.

Thing is, this isn't an I-Win button for a LOT of players, else we'd see a LOT less of them splattered in random vet dungeons ..... and trust me, the number of times my tank is trying to hold and res simultaneously has become so common I am getting rather good at it ... it happens

But, I'd rather have one of these people than the hyper lemming runner with 2 bars he copied off the web, and no clue, other than mashing the buttons in the order the website told him to... and his only experience is beating on a dummy that doesn't fight back. There are just as many of those as there are Oakensoul HA people out there.....

The go to the page, copy a build, don't even re-arrange the skills to what would work better for them, or don't know what some of those skills do --- and instead, memorize a button mashing pattern, as listed on the bottom of the build page.

At least, and this is from tanking a LOT of pug vet dungeons.....most oakensoul users know mostly what they are doing......
Now, if they would just remember that non-staff wielders have to use stamina for more than just running full speed, it would be great.......LOL

Seriously, though, I don't see this as a problem, so much, as an opportunity to get more people playing veteran level ---- there is a LOT of veteran stuff in this game, and a LOT of the players don't even KNOW what it is .... before I learned about it, I was told there were about a dozen heavy dungeons, but only the meta-sweaties even bothered with it, and the only rewards were titles..... I seriously considered just not bothering with it at all... initially.

I'd be more into pushing this towards using it as a step to learning --- because the 2 bar "Build This" pages, that come out every couple of months, when the combat system is, inevitably, changed again, aren't producing players than can do much, either.

Auldwulfe

Estin

maxjapank wrote: »

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Oakensoul HA is definitely an "I win" button with the amount of damage it does and the survivability it provides. It is objectively overpowered for how easy it is to use, and that has everything to do with the 100% uptime of empower. It stands no reason for being as such.

I know the general sentiment is that it will never be as strong as a 2 bar LA build, but that is a rather insignificant argument. The people who do 120-130k DPS aren't your average player. They're score pushers, a small percentage of the player base, and many of them don't really care how strong the HA builds are.

The average player, at least in the mid game where most of the people are when debating HA builds, are sitting at the same damage output as an optimized HA build, give or take 5-10%. When they see a build that does similar damage as them with a much simpler play style and increased survivability, it is not wrong for them to feel that it's overpowered. The players that never had an optimized build or rotation who picked up the HA build love the idea of it because it allows them to do everything the game has to offer without the effort that needs to go in with a traditional build.

Oakensoul HA in its current form shouldn't be the accessibility bridge that ZoS was looking for. It should be an entry to it instead, and it could be fixed simply by nerfing empower. This would allow the lower skilled players to still have access to the games hard content without stepping on the toes of the average mid game player, because why should the average mid game player use a traditional 2 bar LA build when an Oakensoul HA does near similar damage with increased survivability other than personal taste?

blktauna

plainly none of you oakensoul dislikers use it. It is in no way a one button machine. I use it alot on my magblade in pvp, mainly because barswitch rarely works and I am over trying to juggle more than 4 skills in cyrodil when 3/4th of the time they don't go off. I still die alot, stuff still doesn't work and most of the breakdown benefits supposedly given are paper only.

I don't get why it eats at you that some folks have found a tool that allows then to play the way they like. Why should a player have to play only in the specific way you have decided is the 'correct' one? Huzzah you want a second job to set your toon up, go for it. Not everyone is into that. One of the folks I know who oakensouls the hell out of his toon switched from the 2 bar setup he got emperor on, so clearly he knows how to 2 bar.

Yes there should be better rewards tiers, totally agree, but that's an entirely separate issue from trying to dictate someone other than yourself's playstyle and tools.

Bushido2513

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Oakensoul HA is definitely an "I win" button with the amount of damage it does and the survivability it provides. It is objectively overpowered for how easy it is to use, and that has everything to do with the 100% uptime of empower. It stands no reason for being as such.

I know the general sentiment is that it will never be as strong as a 2 bar LA build, but that is a rather insignificant argument. The people who do 120-130k DPS aren't your average player. They're score pushers, a small percentage of the player base, and many of them don't really care how strong the HA builds are.

The average player, at least in the mid game where most of the people are when debating HA builds, are sitting at the same damage output as an optimized HA build, give or take 5-10%. When they see a build that does similar damage as them with a much simpler play style and increased survivability, it is not wrong for them to feel that it's overpowered. The players that never had an optimized build or rotation who picked up the HA build love the idea of it because it allows them to do everything the game has to offer without the effort that needs to go in with a traditional build.

Oakensoul HA in its current form shouldn't be the accessibility bridge that ZoS was looking for. It should be an entry to it instead, and it could be fixed simply by nerfing empower. This would allow the lower skilled players to still have access to the games hard content without stepping on the toes of the average mid game player, because why should the average mid game player use a traditional 2 bar LA build when an Oakensoul HA does near similar damage with increased survivability other than personal taste?

Orrrrr ZOS could make better content that caters to various skill levels and rewards those skill levels appropriately instead of just throwing everyone into the majority of the same pool.

Yeah you can nerf Oakensoul but to me that's more of a bandaid to the problem of making better content. I can totally see someone saying hey give me more of a challenge/challenging content but saying hey make it more challenging for this other group so that the same existing challenge just feels more fair to me, eh, it just seems like a backwards step in the evolution of the game.

Also it will feel dumb to that group because the cat is out of the bag and they already experienced the power that they paid for and grinded to get.

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

plainly none of you oakensoul dislikers use it. It is in no way a one button machine. I use it alot on my magblade in pvp, mainly because barswitch rarely works and I am over trying to juggle more than 4 skills in cyrodil when 3/4th of the time they don't go off. I still die alot, stuff still doesn't work and most of the breakdown benefits supposedly given are paper only.

I don't get why it eats at you that some folks have found a tool that allows then to play the way they like. Why should a player have to play only in the specific way you have decided is the 'correct' one? Huzzah you want a second job to set your toon up, go for it. Not everyone is into that. One of the folks I know who oakensouls the hell out of his toon switched from the 2 bar setup he got emperor on, so clearly he knows how to 2 bar.

Yes there should be better rewards tiers, totally agree, but that's an entirely separate issue from trying to dictate someone other than yourself's playstyle and tools.

You're basically talking about the person that yells at the waiter vs thinking it might be management's fault. If there were proper content for vet players to go mess with you'd likely not even see a thread about oakensoul but there isn't so people think the next best thing is to just nerf oakensoul or even rag on someone for using it.

It's funny because people will sit and complain about dps being low then when dps gets to be too easy the complain about that. It's like hey I don't mind if you get near me but how dare you use what's built into the game to easily get to the level I've worked all this time to get to.

Petty and short sighted vision in my opinion.

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Offering nothing new? I wrote a breakdown of Oakensoul, going over every single buff to voice an opinion on balancing it. I tried to remain completely subjective through the whole thing. If you have issues with what I wrote, then explain yourself in some way other than "I no like, so bad". Somehow I doubt you read it though and I also doubt you would admit to any legitimate complaints.

I mean I looked at your breakdown but I guess my question is this. Why aren't you asking for more content that caters to your desire to have more of a challenge and a better reward system?

Like let's take PVP as an example, and I mean in gameplay mode sense not anything else. You have builds that are overpowered in given scenarios and less powered in others. and so ZOS gave players different ways to enjoy that experience rather than saying here's cyrodil, too bad if you like 1v1(Dueling), 4v4v4(Battlegrounds), smaller fighting areas mixed with PVE(Imperial City). and the same can be true and maybe should be true with PVE.

Maybe ask for some harder content with better rewards for you and people like yourself that feel they want a degree of seperation from those that want an easier time. This way you don't have to kill off someone else's fun just to get what you want.

Now if you want the game to just be challenging all the way around and to have a universal approach to tiers of skill then you're really just playing the wrong game or should direct your attention to ZOS because they clearly are catering to newer and more casual players. Not that I'm saying they won't do what you're asking but I really don't know if that's in their best interest since they seem to be geared towards retaining and bringing in casuals vs vet player for the most part.

Billium813

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Offering nothing new? I wrote a breakdown of Oakensoul, going over every single buff to voice an opinion on balancing it. I tried to remain completely subjective through the whole thing. If you have issues with what I wrote, then explain yourself in some way other than "I no like, so bad". Somehow I doubt you read it though and I also doubt you would admit to any legitimate complaints.

I mean I looked at your breakdown but I guess my question is this. Why aren't you asking for more content that caters to your desire to have more of a challenge and a better reward system?

Wait, what? How did you arrive at a completely unrelated question after reading my thoughts on balancing Oakensoul? Asking for more content is such a larger undertaking. It's like I wrote "10 reasons for why should drive an electric vehicle" and you came back with "ok, but why don't you just build a jet pack?" I work with what I have. Going to ZOS and saying "you need to make content harder cause HA builds are too easy" is soo disjointed of an argument. Every build should scale up through the content equally.

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

My reply is echoing many in this thread who continue telling you to leave heavy attacks and Oakensoul alone. They are asking you to let them and others enjoy playing the game as is. They are telling you that they have no problem with you playing the game however you wish to play. So please quit being dismissive of our wishes.

"Echoing"; meaning offering nothing new and just being repeated. You are commenting on a completely new post that I made, with an echo of comments being claimed ad nauseam, by players that are petulantly clinging to their toy and refusing to acknowledge that Oakensoul is still OP and needs balance. As I said, players enjoy using OP toys and don't care that this is a multiplayer game. However, no matter how much those players want this to be single player Skyrim, it isn't. The game needs balanced and you aren't offering anything new to the conversation but the tired cry of "don't take my toy from me".

Are you not also offering nothing new and just repeating much of the same over and over? Also, it is very dismissive how you refer to players as "clinging to their toy." I doubt players who use heavy attacks and Oakensoul would appreciate you referring to them as "children." As many have pointed out, mechanics have to be followed to do almost all content. Heavy attacks and Oakensoul is not an "I win." button. Balance is working well and encouraging many players to do content they haven't done before. It's a great thing.

Offering nothing new? I wrote a breakdown of Oakensoul, going over every single buff to voice an opinion on balancing it. I tried to remain completely subjective through the whole thing. If you have issues with what I wrote, then explain yourself in some way other than "I no like, so bad". Somehow I doubt you read it though and I also doubt you would admit to any legitimate complaints.

Like let's take PVP as an example, and I mean in gameplay mode sense not anything else. You have builds that are overpowered in given scenarios and less powered in others. and so ZOS gave players different ways to enjoy that experience rather than saying here's cyrodil, too bad if you like 1v1(Dueling), 4v4v4(Battlegrounds), smaller fighting areas mixed with PVE(Imperial City). and the same can be true and maybe should be true with PVE.

Maybe ask for some harder content with better rewards for you and people like yourself that feel they want a degree of seperation from those that want an easier time. This way you don't have to kill off someone else's fun just to get what you want.

I never said I want to kill off Oakensoul. I just think Oakensoul provides more buffs than it should; more buffs than the tradeoff account for. There seems to be this thought that if you look at Oakensoul funny, itll crash and burn. If you even mutter something about nerfing it, then players around the world will rage uninstall and the world will end. It's 1 Mythic people, and its punching above its weight.

Iv completed my daily pledges on vet every day for the last 3 years. I PUG dungeons day in and day out. Tank, DPS, Healer, I run them all. I monitor DPS, mechanics, group play, buffs. I feel like my wheelhouse is firmly in the mid level: veteran dungeons, HM and regular. I introduce new players, help them with builds, show them mechanics and how to work bosses. Say whatever you want about that, but it is what it is. I don't touch Trials much out of preference, so I'll defer that content to others opinions. However, I view Trials as more high level content and less in the middle.

My personal issue with Oakensoul, and the HA builds that are abusing it atm, is that it's eating up the mid level player builds. The cost of entry is incredibly low (you don't have to go farm trial gear) and the skill bar is equally low (hold RMB), but the damage is well higher than most DPS running Vet dungeons. You have some mid level player, parsing their brains out for 50k DPS, only to be deflated at being 40% of the DPS compared to the RMB HA build that uses no resources and gets the slow clap 80k dps. It's disheartening.

I think it's great that the barrier to entry is low for a good build, but I hate that it's such a simple playstyle that anyone can immediately eclipse mid level 2 bar setups trying to maintain 7 skills in a good rotation while dodging mechanics. Just go google HA builds, there's a reason every single content creator out there has them listed as "EASY MODE ...". meanwhile, the HA build is standing 28m in the back, almost entirely ignoring mechanics, dumpstering the 50k 2 bar build in damage, and using no resources.

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

Wait, what? How did you arrive at a completely unrelated question after reading my thoughts on balancing Oakensoul? Asking for more content is such a larger undertaking. It's like I wrote "10 reasons for why should drive an electric vehicle" and you came back with "ok, but why don't you just build a jet pack?" I work with what I have. Going to ZOS and saying "you need to make content harder cause HA builds are too easy" is soo disjointed of an argument. Every build should scale up through the content equally.
.

I'm saying if you like driving electric then drive electric but just because my gas guzler gives me the range I want without having to stop for a charge then why should I give that up because you believe I need to stop for a charge?

You're basically saying someone else enjoying easy access to power is somehow hurting your experience because you like people to work for what they get in a video game? It's a game, people came here to have fun and if oakensoul gives them a smile then what's the problem.

If you want harder content to validate the work you put in then ask for that and I'm ok with that but don't ask me to give up what makes me happy just to make you happy. That's basically the same as me saying nerf 2 bar builds because I want more people to play oakensoul because I feel like people need to relax and chill like me. That's just not how it works when each of us pays for our game and uses it how we like.

Again the reason why I say ask for harder content is because oakensoul users are happy with the level of challenge they do or don't get, it's only someone like you saying the game should be more challenging, then go ask zos for hard content but as it stands maybe just let people enjoy what they enjoy especially when all it hurts is your perception of the gaming experience.

Oakensoul just makes things easier, it doesn't give extra gold or transmutes, gold, crowns, etc and it's available to you as well.

Don't play it if you don't like but why throw shade on others that enjoy it? It's not even overperforming and by that I mean in the context of PVE and what that experience is meant to give to the individual player. People who use it probably would just as likely use a button that says obliterate enemy but hey that's their game that they bought and zos is catering to them, sounds like a case of you can't please them all but that zos is pleasing who they like.

Billium813 wrote: »

I never said I want to kill off Oakensoul. I just think Oakensoul provides more buffs than it should; more buffs than the tradeoff account for. There seems to be this thought that if you look at Oakensoul funny, itll crash and burn. If you even mutter something about nerfing it, then players around the world will rage uninstall and the world will end. It's 1 Mythic people, and its punching above its weight.

Iv completed my daily pledges on vet every day for the last 3 years. I PUG dungeons day in and day out. Tank, DPS, Healer, I run them all. I monitor DPS, mechanics, group play, buffs. I feel like my wheelhouse is firmly in the mid level: veteran dungeons, HM and regular. I introduce new players, help them with builds, show them mechanics and how to work bosses. Say whatever you want about that, but it is what it is. I don't touch Trials much out of preference, so I'll defer that content to others opinions. However, I view Trials as more high level content and less in the middle.

My personal issue with Oakensoul, and the HA builds that are abusing it atm, is that it's eating up the mid level player builds. The cost of entry is incredibly low (you don't have to go farm trial gear) and the skill bar is equally low (hold RMB), but the damage is well higher than most DPS running Vet dungeons. You have some mid level player, parsing their brains out for 50k DPS, only to be deflated at being 40% of the DPS compared to the RMB HA build that uses no resources and gets the slow clap 80k dps. It's disheartening.

I think it's great that the barrier to entry is low for a good build, but I hate that it's such a simple playstyle that anyone can immediately eclipse mid level 2 bar setups trying to maintain 7 skills in a good rotation while dodging mechanics. Just go google HA builds, there's a reason every single content creator out there has them listed as "EASY MODE ...". meanwhile, the HA build is standing 28m in the back, almost entirely ignoring mechanics, dumpstering the 50k 2 bar build in damage, and using no resources.

Again this is PVE if it was PVP I'd be on your side but using oakensoul doesn't hurt another player other than their ego of accomplishment and so again I say why come down on someone else's fun if they want to blow up mobs or ads? Yes it brings down the level of what's considered hard content and yes we could nerf it and make people who pay to play a game and have fun WORK harder but how about we just let people that think oakensoul is to easy choose to take it off if they want instead of nerfing them so someone else can feel more accomplished?

blktauna

Billium813 wrote: »

I never said I want to kill off Oakensoul. I just think Oakensoul provides more buffs than it should; more buffs than the tradeoff account for. There seems to be this thought that if you look at Oakensoul funny, itll crash and burn. If you even mutter something about nerfing it, then players around the world will rage uninstall and the world will end. It's 1 Mythic people, and its punching above its weight.

except many of us don't agree. It does what its designed to do. It just seems you are not a fan of ehat its designed to do.

Billium813 wrote: »

My personal issue with Oakensoul, and the HA builds that are abusing it atm, is that it's eating up the mid level player builds. The cost of entry is incredibly low (you don't have to go farm trial gear) and the skill bar is equally low (hold RMB), but the damage is well higher than most DPS running Vet dungeons. You have some mid level player, parsing their brains out for 50k DPS, only to be deflated at being 40% of the DPS compared to the RMB HA build that uses no resources and gets the slow clap 80k dps. It's disheartening.

Not everyone wants that. I don't farm trial gear on NA because no one I know on NA is doing trials. I have zero wish to pug them and in all honesty I don't need or want that gear. You keep saying more damage than no oak yet I don't particularly notice much difference on my toon other than a bit in my resistances and that I don't need to wear rattlecage all the time. You are giving way too much to this thing.

Billium813 wrote: »

I think it's great that the barrier to entry is low for a good build, but I hate that it's such a simple playstyle that anyone can immediately eclipse mid level 2 bar setups trying to maintain 7 skills in a good rotation while dodging mechanics. Just go google HA builds, there's a reason every single content creator out there has them listed as "EASY MODE ...". meanwhile, the HA build is standing 28m in the back, almost entirely ignoring mechanics, dumpstering the 50k 2 bar build in damage, and using no resources.

LOL now I know you don't do HA build. My magplar will Oak it once in awhile and he's hardly 28m in the back. That HA build allows me to burn Magica like no one's business and I still can run out because I'm using lots of expensive casts. Also how are you ignoring mechanics? I can't. I will get slapped even on a HA templar with BOL. Whoever is blowing the mechanics has a good build and the knowledge to blow those mechanics.

You hate HA builds, we get it, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else has to do what you want.

Bushido2513

blktauna wrote: »

. Also how are you ignoring mechanics?

This did raise an eyebrow, I just didn't get around to mentioning it. I'm guessing he means in anywhere where oakensoul dps is enough to burn through a mechanic. Even still we're talking about PVE.

Somewhere someone right now is burning through a dungeon using oakensoul and I don't feel hurt by this at all. Now when pre nerf oakensoul dks were roasting me I wanted to cry about it all day but someone in PVE doing their thing to an AD, nope can't see my way to get up in arms about that, no sir.

Estin

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Orrrrr ZOS could make better content that caters to various skill levels and rewards those skill levels appropriately instead of just throwing everyone into the majority of the same pool.

Yeah you can nerf Oakensoul but to me that's more of a bandaid to the problem of making better content. I can totally see someone saying hey give me more of a challenge/challenging content but saying hey make it more challenging for this other group so that the same existing challenge just feels more fair to me, eh, it just seems like a backwards step in the evolution of the game.

Also it will feel dumb to that group because the cat is out of the bag and they already experienced the power that they paid for and grinded to get.

I don't believe the solution would be that simple. If you mean make better content for various skill levels as in needing higher DPS, that would just be raising the floor to only be accessible reaching above 100k. If you mean more mechanics, Oakensoul's survivability would still win out. Vet HM is supposed to be this content, and with how strong oakensoul is, it's accessible to everybody which is throwing everybody into the same pool regardless.

The way I can see it is that oakensoul could be good for vet, traditional builds for mid tier players can be good for vet hm plus trifecta progging, and anybody reaching max DPS are just there to score push and get WRs.

Also ZoS has already nerfed strong items after people bought and grinded for them. Oakensoul is just very popular and controversial due to how much it simplifies the game. A nerf to bring it more in line to what it should be would not be surprising.

Stx

So on a stationary target aka a dummy, LA builds are doing 125-135k depending on class. Same conditions, heavy attack builds are dealing 92-102k.

Heavy builds are mainly ranged, have passive cleave, and are a little (yea little) tankier. So dealing that damage in content is easier.

But how much of a gap do LA players want? 30% more damage? 50% more damage? LA builds already do a lot more damage.

Maybe nerfs to the passive cleave would be warranted, but that’s it. Heavy attack builds are fine.

Estin

Stx wrote: »

So on a stationary target aka a dummy, LA builds are doing 125-135k depending on class. Same conditions, heavy attack builds are dealing 92-102k.

Heavy builds are mainly ranged, have passive cleave, and are a little (yea little) tankier. So dealing that damage in content is easier.

But how much of a gap do LA players want? 30% more damage? 50% more damage? LA builds already do a lot more damage.

Maybe nerfs to the passive cleave would be warranted, but that’s it. Heavy attack builds are fine.

The numbers are true, but not everybody is reaching that cap for LA builds. Your average mid tier player using a LA build would have similar damage ranges as a HA build. Their damage would also be less if they're melee and need to pay attention to mechanics during fights. The good thing about HA builds is that they can keep doing damage while paying attention to mechanics, and be at a range to avoid them too. People who do the cap damage for LA builds don't care how strong oakensoul is. It's the people doing 90-100k who have their valid complaints.

allochthons

I'm one of the people who is benefiting greatly from 1-bar HA builds.

One of the greatest confusions in this argument is what people mean when they use the word "accessibility." Even the devs often seem confused about this.
1. Making harder content accessible to lower level skill players,
OR
2. Making content easier or even possible for people with disabilities to access.

I'm talking about #2.

I'm a fairly decent player. I have healers, tanks and DPS on every class (except nightblade tank). With my best 2-bar build (A stamDK), I am hitting mid 70's DPS. But I can't parse on that toon for hours to improve that simply because my hands can not take the punishment. Prior to Oakensoul, I could maybe do one or two progs a year, because my hands couldn't take more. Doing more than one or two lengthy trials (like a prog) a week simply wasn't possible, and on the days between those trials, I'd just do overland questing because I simply was not capable of even running dungeons with the pain in my hands.

Now I have an Oakensorc, and a 1-bar warden. I'm in two progs, Godslayer and vDSR, and running 4-6 trials a week. I'm playing a lot more with my friends because I don't have to bow out due to pain. My friends are doing more trials, because I'm one of many in this situation, but now some of us are on our HA builds, while others are doing the zenkosh / EC Cro, and we rotate.

I still have to learn the mechanics. I still need to know when to switch hardened ward for critical surge for shuffle and how to gracefully grab, drop, and steal the orbs when fighting and interupting Turlassil and Lylanar. When to drop into the water to avoid Deluge.

But I've had more vet dungeon and trial clears in the last few months than in the previous 3 years, simply because with Oakensoul, I can physically do them. It's not a matter of skill for me and those like me. It's pain management. It's spoons, for those familiar with that metaphor.

How is this possibly bad for the game?

Yes, there are those who will mis-use it, like those running ahead of the tanks and pulling because they think they'll survive. But, gotta say, those people always did that. Oakensoul doesn't change that. It's just getting noticed when oakensoul users are doing it, because that's what's on people's minds right now.

Bushido2513

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

I don't believe the solution would be that simple. If you mean make better content for various skill levels as in needing higher DPS, that would just be raising the floor to only be accessible reaching above 100k. If you mean more mechanics, Oakensoul's survivability would still win out.

Not simple at all as far as I can see and by that I mean how creative ZOS would actually have to be. You can make mechanics that still reward reaction times, teamwork, good rng, etc.

If it was easy to craft these things I'd be counting my money instead of writing this post, but technically speaking I know it's not impossible.

Let's say something like this, you put the dps just within the range where someone would have to figure out the right build to go with oakensoul and really push themselves. For some this would be easier than others but there would still be a push.

You could also build content to dynamically allocate to the players dps which must meet a minimum that high tier players can reach including oakensoul then perhaps you use rubber band ai like in a racing game where you make it so basically no matter who you are there's always a very difficult level of challenge. This would need to be done carefully though so that you don't frustrate the player with cheap deaths.

Then you add in mechanics but good ones, possibly a procedurally generated section and perhaps a section that relies on data about the character that the game reads that you have to recall. Perhaps a mechanic that requires a particular understanding of your class and to build a bit into something specific.

And those are just a few ideas that I could come up with that I know this game engine is able to render and I only spent like a minute thinking of those. Think what zos and their teams could come up with if they really tried.

Then you could basically make content that requires that the player really think about what they are doing and how they will tackle an instance whether solo or with a team if the dungeon is setup for that.

You could even make it to where there was a time of progression where they could only do so much before they had to wait and come back for the rest in sections. That's not my best idea but my point is that you can get creative and make content that's challenging in good ways that allow someone to really feel like they did something if they were willing to push themselves to the max

Only thing that would be needed that I can't think of is an anti cheese mechanism that persist throughout the whole experience. That could be tricky to do without getting overly invasive to the player so on that I'm not exactly sure but I'm sure someone smarter than me could think of something.

Ingenon

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

Just a few minutes ago, I saw on guild chat that a group needed a DPS to finish a trial (stuck on last boss, someone had to leave). I switched to my Oaken Sorc, joined the group, the trial got finished. The group was happy to finish the trial. I play my Oaken Sorc build better in trials than my LA weaving build. Literally I might not have been able to do that on my LA weaving build.

I think this game is better off with more people able to do trials. And I still don't get why people want to nerf a build that is second best to a well played LA weaving build. You can spin the story anyway you want, but it sounds like Gatekeeping to me.

Oh, and ZOS has already done a nerf on Oakensoul, Update 35 reduced major berserk to minor berserk, major courage to minor courage, major heroism to minor heroism, and major protection to minor protection.

Turtle_Bot

Ingenon wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

Just a few minutes ago, I saw on guild chat that a group needed a DPS to finish a trial (stuck on last boss, someone had to leave). I switched to my Oaken Sorc, joined the group, the trial got finished. The group was happy to finish the trial. I play my Oaken Sorc build better in trials than my LA weaving build. Literally I might not have been able to do that on my LA weaving build.

I think this game is better off with more people able to do trials. And I still don't get why people want to nerf a build that is second best to a well played LA weaving build. You can spin the story anyway you want, but it sounds like Gatekeeping to me.

Oh, and ZOS has already done a nerf on Oakensoul, Update 35 reduced major berserk to minor berserk, major courage to minor courage, major heroism to minor heroism, and major protection to minor protection.

it also nerfed major force to minor force too.

Yazrz

What often seems to be missing from this discussion is the scaling of "skill" vs DPS, especially when the "skill" part is very much a matter of taste. You could be extremely skilled in pulling off LA weaving, and still hate the jerky animations or just the mechanics of it.

I do not think anyone is debating that pulling off a more complicated rotation and/or hitting timers can be rewarded with higher DPS, even if that in itself is not a given (as it is more a matter of taste than anything else).

The crux comes down to how much this DPS reward is. There needs to be significantly diminishing returns coupled to increased difficulty, in order to maintain a healthy player base that can enjoy the content in the game, and still give rewards to those that put time and effort into mastering the gameplay.

Trivial: 50%
Easy: 75%
Challenging: 85%
Hard: 90%
Impossible 100%

Cameron991

At the end of the day if you don’t like HA builds don’t use them… and if you think content is going to be too easy now with them then idk maybe try to challenge yourself more and do hm dungeons solo it can be done. My point is if you hate a certain build don’t run it and if you think those builds are ruining the hardness of content don’t run them, stop telling people how they should play the game. If people want to HA and make things easier go for it, it’s no one’s business but their own I think bringing more people into the scene to play content they couldn’t do before to unlock things they want but couldn’t achieve is a win case closed. As we all have seen zos has clearly been wanting to reduce the skill gap in this is a step in the right direction imo while someone who may be very bad at games is having a blast pressing two buttons you are having a blast light attack weaving and doing your 2 bar build at the end of the day both are fun depending on what your type of preference is

Sergykid

from what i saw in some dlc tris and hm farms, with equally skilled players the proper two bar build deals more damage by around 20% on bosses (f.e. 50k vs 60k). The only advantages oakens have is easier survivability and less stress. But this comes at cost of dps, so it should be alright.
on lower skill level, oaken seem to do more, but that's just cuz it's easier, not better.

if any nerf were to come on oaken it should be a small one to survivability. Maybe a nerf to tri focus cleave but that's not oakens and shock staves already struggle outside of oaken

Bushido2513

Sergykid wrote: »

from what i saw in some dlc tris and hm farms, with equally skilled players the proper two bar build deals more damage by around 20% on bosses (f.e. 50k vs 60k). The only advantages oakens have is easier survivability and less stress. But this comes at cost of dps, so it should be alright.
on lower skill level, oaken seem to do more, but that's just cuz it's easier, not better.

if any nerf were to come on oaken it should be a small one to survivability. Maybe a nerf to tri focus cleave but that's not oakens and shock staves already struggle outside of oaken

But even if it was the exact same dps would it even matter? Like as an example it's ok to ask someone if they have trials gear or whatever flavor of the month because you want them to at least do a certain amount of damage but it's not ok for them to just do decent damage but not have to work as hard and therefore enjoy the game a bit more?

Also I'm not saying you but people act as if they need to feel validated by the uniform suffering of others lol. Like man why are you not working as hard as me over here even though we will still clear the content and enjoy the rewards.


The craziest part of this is that we're talking about a game in a situation that should be fun co op

Auldwulfe

Funny thing is that it is becoming very obvious that the majority of people that are against the one bar build have never tried it, and don't understand why it even exists.

It started with the Sorcerer... because it was necessary. Right now, my ONLY one bar build is that, because outside of that option, my sorcerer lives in the craft hall, and only exists because I completed all my researches on him, first, and he got all my motifs I farmed.......

Sorcerers are forced to be zoo keepers to have the same healing and DPS as other classes ... yes, I know, someone will tell me there are Stamina builds, and YES, you are absolutely right, I CAN take fighter guild, Undaunted, and other skill lines and build a Stamina Sorcerer, using Vigor to heal..... and..... the fact that it is a sorcerer is cosmetic.
My one bar has to have both pets, as they do a huge chunk of my DPS .....along with Dedric Prey ... there is 3 of my 5 slots, gone to one skill line, just to make that work --- they say you can use Hurricane, but there are higher DPS options from other lines..... and I chose to use Wall from the Staff line, instead of Barbed Trap, because Sorcerers use lightning..... even if it DOES cost me DPS ......

Sorcerers were forced into this .... and if you look at the other 1 bar builds.... most of them strongly resemble the description of a sorcerer, when done..... because that is where the current combat meta of the game made it necessary.

Maybe, with U37, we might see some changes ..... I'm not holding my breath, though..... I fully suspect that Dragon Knights and Night Blades will still dominate the builds out there.....

You want to fix one bar builds? Then go for the root cause.... bad balance in the classes ....
Right now, a good number of the Necros I know are strongly considering one bar, until they get SOMETHING ..... especially, as they just lost the harmony synergy... which was, pretty much, their primary option for burst damage .....
The ones that aren't have devolved to a mix of non-class skills.... with "necromancer" just being a cosmetic title.

That's the true issue.... not whether someone might have figured out an easier way to do something that rubs someone the wrong way. If Dragon Knights and Night Blades weren't leading the DPS charge to every higher heights, and forcing everyone else to scramble to keep up, there wouldn't be a need for building a one bar high DPS focus......

And trust me, I WISH I could have my Crystal Shards ... sometimes I take ANOTHER hit to my DPS and slot it instead of Hurricane, just so that I am tossing something that looks like a spell.... since ANYONE in the game can pick up a stick and wiggle it at the enemy to "be a wizard"..... it is one of the few ways a sorcerer can resemble a user of magic.... except when the mobs dodge roll it, because you fired it outside of melee range, and they had time to decide.

If the classes were more equal, there would be less feeling of being forced into this specific build, just to compete.

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Funny thing is that it is becoming very obvious that the majority of people that are against the one bar build have never tried it, and don't understand why it even exists.

Auldwulfe

I would give you that most that don't care for one bar build probably never felt the need to use them and are mostly going off of what they see other players doing. I don't think they really care why they exist but I feel like it's also not only because of the reason you stated. To most people who see them I'm guessing they understand them to exist as an easy way to play the game regardless of why that player may need or want it to be easy dps.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

It started with the Sorcerer... because it was necessary. Right now, my ONLY one bar build is that, because outside of that option, my sorcerer lives in the craft hall, and only exists because I completed all my researches on him, first, and he got all my motifs I farmed.......

Sorcerers are forced to be zoo keepers to have the same healing and DPS as other classes ... yes, I know, someone will tell me there are Stamina builds, and YES, you are absolutely right, I CAN take fighter guild, Undaunted, and other skill lines and build a Stamina Sorcerer, using Vigor to heal..... and..... the fact that it is a sorcerer is cosmetic.
My one bar has to have both pets, as they do a huge chunk of my DPS .....along with Dedric Prey ... there is 3 of my 5 slots, gone to one skill line, just to make that work --- they say you can use Hurricane, but there are higher DPS options from other lines..... and I chose to use Wall from the Staff line, instead of Barbed Trap, because Sorcerers use lightning..... even if it DOES cost me DPS ......

Sorcerers were forced into this .... and if you look at the other 1 bar builds.... most of them strongly resemble the description of a sorcerer, when done..... because that is where the current combat meta of the game made it necessary.

Auldwulfe

I can say after seeing it with my own eyes that sorc was not forced to play this style. I've seen mag sorcs that weren't one bar that did considerably good dps. It mostly just seemed to depend on skill level. I'm not saying there aren't any concessions that have to be made but saying anyone was forced into this is a stretch I think.

HA playstyle came from a few different reasons like being a good fit for those with high ping who wanted to do content where bar swapping just got them killed. It's also good for just doing relaxed dps and DK was a good choice as well for a HA build do to having easy access to empower before oaken .

Also I realize this may be out of context but when you say started with I'm not sure if you mean from the beginning like way back when or just now with HA builds on oakensoul. I'm referring to when HA builds started showing up for me years back and it certainly wasn't because mag sorc just couldn't be played any other way.

If you speak of it currently I'd still say mag sorc can be played other ways that would still do similar dps to an HA build just with more work of course.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

You want to fix one bar builds? Then go for the root cause.... bad balance in the classes ....

That's the true issue.... not whether someone might have figured out an easier way to do something that rubs someone the wrong way. If Dragon Knights and Night Blades weren't leading the DPS charge to every higher heights, and forcing everyone else to scramble to keep up, there wouldn't be a need for building a one bar high DPS focus......


If the classes were more equal, there would be less feeling of being forced into this specific build, just to compete.

Auldwulfe

Sorry I combined a few particular quotes here rather than quote them separately. Class balance is needed but I'm pretty sure more people play 1 bar because it's just easier. Not saying there aren't people that do it because of class balance but if you put up a poll I'm sure you'd have people that play it because it's easy and for a few other different reasons but mostly because it's easy.

It's a great way for casuals looking to chill, people with disabilities, and probably a few other reasons but I don't think it's that much about competition with other classes by default.

I think you'd find many classes being used for one bar builds and we can sort of see that just by searching YT. Yes sorc comes up because it's easy but dk and others are in there too so I would say it's not just about sorc having a place but people wanting to also just do easy dps on a character they may not have otherwise used or that they just wanted to try in a different way, etc

If classes were more equal I can agree you'd see more people playing their favorite class for doing dps. So in a way yes fixing balance would cause the effect you speak of to some degree. I just don't think the message about people being forced into something to compete is a true one in relation to oakensoul.

Billium813

Figured I's just post this here for anyone that can objectively read data

These are three combat caps from a 1 bar Necro HA build. One with Oakensoul and the other just swapping Oakensoul for a mid-tier Mythic like Death Dealer's Fete, then the third dropping all CP passives and slottables (Wrathful Strikes, Deadly Aim, Backstabber, Weapons Expert). For all three caps, I held down RMB the entire time and pressed a skill every 2 seconds (I counted). I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, so I'm sure I had a sloppy rotation and wasn't properly weaving HAs

1bar HA + Oakensoul

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete + No CP

1. look at those Resource drains. ~250 Magicka drain per second... with 85k DPS... That demonstrates just how little the build is doing in actions and yet can still reach 85K DPS.
2. Oakensoul literally doubles the damage your HA does. From 15k DPS -> 30k DPS
3. even without Oakensoul, a 1 bar HA build that drains ~240 Magicka per second, activates 1 skill every 2 seconds, and deals 100% damage in AOE, from range, gets to 54k DPS
4. No CP, no Empower (the HA specific buff) and we are still at 45k DPS
5. Skills don't cancel the HA channel; instead queuing the skill. This is subtle, but is highly accessible. Not necessarily an issue, but comparing that to LA weaving, you can really see the appeal.

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

And this is pretty much how it should be in a game that's more geared towards casual play and a social experience. It's also amazing for anyone that is disabled, just wants to hang with friends and still be useful, etc.

I haven't pugged in a good while but if I did I'd take a group of HA oaken builds where I could just relax over a more draining DPM scenario where by the end I'm tired and don't even feel like playing the game anymore.