Heavy Attack Builds

Turtle_Bot

Schared wrote: »

I would like to challenge that if ur running say a 4man team - and 1 guy keeps dying/underperforming while the oakensorc of your group carries. Fingers will be pointed to the guy not doing heavy attack builds.

Something to note here regarding this point specifically and something that makes this argument against the build shaky at best.
Those who would "point the finger" at the person who keeps dying/underperforming, will point the finger at those underperforming people regardless of whether they were running oaken HA, a meta 2 bar set-up, a niche strong but not meta build etc.

Those same people are the same second tier players that think they are up there on par with the best of the best and attempt to reinforce this idea through belittling other players that they consider below them, regardless of what build those other players use.

These people did the exact same thing back when plars were able to hit 70k+ with just jabs (another 1 button build) and they will do it again on the next "easy build/carry class/etc".

These people's opinions should not be a reason to nerf a second tier build that is still performing roughly 20-30% below what the top builds can achieve.

There's also plenty of players using "PvP" builds to clear most vet/HM dungeons (even DLCs) and old trial content who have been doing so for years because those builds allow them to be tanky while dealing sufficient damage to clear the content, often with the damage being made up for by having more DDs and less/no healers.

Where do we draw the line here? What's next after oakensoul HA builds? Do we go after the solo players builds since those are tankier and have nearly the same damage as traditional 2 bar builds for the middle of the road players and are being used to clear content such as vMA/vVH, etc? Do we go after PvP builds that are also used in PvE content because again, they are much tankier than traditional builds, have enough damage to clear majority of content and are much more forgiving and easier to play and often end up removing the need for a healer too.

Or, how about instead of worrying/being jealous of what others are doing to help them enjoy the cooperative side of the game the way they want to and clear the content how they want to, we instead focus on improving ourselves and what we can do to better enjoy the game how we want to enjoy it, whether that be via playing a "1 button" build to relax and enjoy the game for what it is, or sweating like crazy trying to play the piano to clear content like it's a second job.

Schared

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

I would like to challenge that if ur running say a 4man team - and 1 guy keeps dying/underperforming while the oakensorc of your group carries. Fingers will be pointed to the guy not doing heavy attack builds.

Something to note here regarding this point specifically and something that makes this argument against the build shaky at best.
Those who would "point the finger" at the person who keeps dying/underperforming, will point the finger at those underperforming people regardless of whether they were running oaken HA, a meta 2 bar set-up, a niche strong but not meta build etc.

Those same people are the same second tier players that think they are up there on par with the best of the best and attempt to reinforce this idea through belittling other players that they consider below them, regardless of what build those other players use.

These people did the exact same thing back when plars were able to hit 70k+ with just jabs (another 1 button build) and they will do it again on the next "easy build/carry class/etc".

These people's opinions should not be a reason to nerf a second tier build that is still performing roughly 20-30% below what the top builds can achieve.

There's also plenty of players using "PvP" builds to clear most vet/HM dungeons (even DLCs) and old trial content who have been doing so for years because those builds allow them to be tanky while dealing sufficient damage to clear the content, often with the damage being made up for by having more DDs and less/no healers.

Where do we draw the line here? What's next after oakensoul HA builds? Do we go after the solo players builds since those are tankier and have nearly the same damage as traditional 2 bar builds for the middle of the road players and are being used to clear content such as vMA/vVH, etc? Do we go after PvP builds that are also used in PvE content because again, they are much tankier than traditional builds, have enough damage to clear majority of content and are much more forgiving and easier to play and often end up removing the need for a healer too.

Or, how about instead of worrying/being jealous of what others are doing to help them enjoy the cooperative side of the game the way they want to and clear the content how they want to, we instead focus on improving ourselves and what we can do to better enjoy the game how we want to enjoy it, whether that be via playing a "1 button" build to relax and enjoy the game for what it is, or sweating like crazy trying to play the piano to clear content like it's a second job.

An interesting argument, but I dont think that the social aspect you mentioned devalues my point. This grasps way deeper into a different issue altogheter that I would rather not discuss in this thread but have made posts on prior. But the tldr is if theres more trickle down theres more content beat. Ive personally seen it in the past and the reasons why it no longer happens have been described. Suffice to say - people think they are unable to perform on a "top" level - they are not. Everyone can.

I entirely agree with ur second point but I dont think ignoring the issue is the way to go nor with ur assessment of the damage as I previously mentioned in the number of posts it is but a fraction of the issue and does not represent reality.

Lastly I would actualy like to draw the line right here - to answer your question.. I think and MMO should fundamentally encourage and reward group play and being social. I dont think people should outperform as a solo. About the difficulty - I advocate for more difficulty levels including a higher one for older content for years, but it has fallen on deaf ears.

Yes, if you want an easy game I cannot dispell ur attitude towards it. Personally I find reward in challenge and will most likely abandon the game if it runs out of it. I do enjoy relaxing games and solo content aswell, but I dont seek those enjoyments in an MMO.

Kusto

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

Deter1UK

Kusto wrote: »

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

My daughter who is on the Autistic spectrum with Dyspraxia, causing balance and co-ordination problems, farmed Oakensoul herself including Sergents Mail and building Order's Wrath.

This was a MAJOR and I mean MAJOR achievement for her and she deserves every drip of damage that she can wring out of it.

She farmed, built and learned the limited rotation and she would still not out-parse anyone.

But she can now enjoy aspects of the game with her guild that she could not before, without being carried.

She'll never do trials or vet dlc.

In what way does she possibly impact your game?

Auldwulfe

Kusto wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

You answered your own question --- whether you farm Pillars of Nirn, or Oakensoul, you are still farming out the gear to get your DPS.

I have run a HA build for about 18 months, now.... a YEAR BEFORE Oakensoul ... simpler rotation than using Oakensoul, and easier, as it gives the equivelent of 6600 Health Regen.,,, I have to dodge MORE when using Oakensoul, as while the "tankiness" (a term that can't really be measured), is the same, there isn't as much healing in Oakensoul as there is in Crit Surge.

By the way, I built that character 1 month after I started playing.... so, I was a Noob..... and to be perfectly honest, my damage has been pretty consistent before and after Oakensoul..... and I tend to die MORE often with Oakensoul equipped, as I forget I then need to heal more often......
This is not new.... but I do notice that last line about beaten by noobs..... because it lends a lot of weight to the argument that this is about insecurity, and gatekeeping, more than anything else.....

People using Oakensoul are buying High Isle, paying for either DLC, or ESO plus, and then working to get it.
It is a 5 piece mythic... oh look at that, 5 pieces, just like Pillars of Nirn...
And, these people are paying subscriptions....
And you are stating that many people are doing it... do you really want to push that many paying subscriptions off to other games.....

I pay for 3 subscriptions, mine, my fiance', and my step mother... my stepmother uses Oakensoul on a 2-handed build.... because being in her 60's, she doesn't swap bars well..... I play with it, but only use it, say 10% of the time.... I haven't found a real build I like with it..... I do just as much without it, and most of my builds would be considered bar and a half builds, as I only really swap bars about 20 to 25% of the time..... I tend to build 1 bar builds that run me about 65K, which is MORE than enough to clear anything I want to clear... but also that I can consistently do, even in groups..... where I usually run 30 to 35K.
Should I be punished for my builds, because I am not hitting the swap bar on the appropriate schedule? Am I not staring at my bar hard enough doing the prescribed ritual mashing?
I am in my mid-50's... so NO, I am not going to change the way I do things..... but if the ring gets nerfed... I am pretty sure my step mother would leave.... and my fiance' and I would too... as we would all go to a game where we can run together and enjoy clearing material...... all because people seem to be upset that newer players.... oh wait... Noobs..... are learning and having fun, and it challenges their place......

I thought that attitude was something to be found in lesser games, like WOW, and tabletop wargames, where people throw tantrums and argue rules, when they get beaten, rather than just accept and enjoy the game...... guess I was wrong about that.

Auldwulfe

Daoin

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

I would like to challenge that if ur running say a 4man team - and 1 guy keeps dying/underperforming while the oakensorc of your group carries. Fingers will be pointed to the guy not doing heavy attack builds.

Something to note here regarding this point specifically and something that makes this argument against the build shaky at best.
Those who would "point the finger" at the person who keeps dying/underperforming, will point the finger at those underperforming people regardless of whether they were running oaken HA, a meta 2 bar set-up, a niche strong but not meta build etc.

Those same people are the same second tier players that think they are up there on par with the best of the best and attempt to reinforce this idea through belittling other players that they consider below them, regardless of what build those other players use.

These people did the exact same thing back when plars were able to hit 70k+ with just jabs (another 1 button build) and they will do it again on the next "easy build/carry class/etc".

These people's opinions should not be a reason to nerf a second tier build that is still performing roughly 20-30% below what the top builds can achieve.

There's also plenty of players using "PvP" builds to clear most vet/HM dungeons (even DLCs) and old trial content who have been doing so for years because those builds allow them to be tanky while dealing sufficient damage to clear the content, often with the damage being made up for by having more DDs and less/no healers.

Where do we draw the line here? What's next after oakensoul HA builds? Do we go after the solo players builds since those are tankier and have nearly the same damage as traditional 2 bar builds for the middle of the road players and are being used to clear content such as vMA/vVH, etc? Do we go after PvP builds that are also used in PvE content because again, they are much tankier than traditional builds, have enough damage to clear majority of content and are much more forgiving and easier to play and often end up removing the need for a healer too.

Or, how about instead of worrying/being jealous of what others are doing to help them enjoy the cooperative side of the game the way they want to and clear the content how they want to, we instead focus on improving ourselves and what we can do to better enjoy the game how we want to enjoy it, whether that be via playing a "1 button" build to relax and enjoy the game for what it is, or sweating like crazy trying to play the piano to clear content like it's a second job.

lets just skip to the end, i would say players have have been around countless years and say what they feel about the HA build or any build are likely to be the furthest from worrying or being jelous as a player as you could find in eso, while also being the ones that do get things improved eventually for people that dont want to speak up

Daoin

and maybe it should if in one post they are saying ranged are made purposely to do less damage than meele but expect to be outperformed by a sorc using a lightning staff because he has pets that are no longer just a cause for 3 man dd groups pulling in a tank because thier pet can heal could also be just me as i have not been around long but i dont see them sharing resources either which in alot of cases make a situation harder rather than easier no matter how much damage they are doing, i for one dont really enjoy carrying HA builds through content, when a team with half thier skill or damage can make the tanks life 100% easier and more fun. forgive the term 'carrying' please its just my personal opinion. I have no issue with newer to eso players choosing to use a HA build. but really all i see there is a promotion of dps in the return argument, either way its a good choice i guess depending on how you like to play. I can also tell personally most of the time myself when im in a group with someone whos just enjoying the game or somebody that thinks they know it all and in the end it wont matter the toxic are going to show up. i could share my own personal story which isnt to great either and im not saying remove any builds hopefully in time even the smallest thing like joining a random group to do a dungeon can mean your joining a random group and not 99% of the time already know whats ahead. and truthfully over many years the only mythics items i ever found useful wehere furniture a ring that makes you go fast and one that helps to heal, recently got another feeling my arm was twisted into it a little the rest...meh..never went out to find ! i'm old with some other problems and got no problem doing things the way i see fit.

PrincessOfThieves

I think the main problem is that the current iteration of oakensorc build doesn't have any real drawbacks. Yes, you are limited to one bar, but many players actually see this as a boon. And yes, there are builds with higher dps, but they require much more practice, APM and they aren't nearly as tanky and self-sufficient.
I'm a casual sorc player, I tried this build and honestly it gives you way too much without any real downsides. It feels almost like exploiting. I also noticed that when I play as a healer, oakensorcs just ignore you and rush ahead (even in vet content) so the tankiness this ring gives you negatively affects group synergy. Being a healer feels more useless than ever when the best group composition is 3 oakensorcs.
I personally think that oakensoul ring should get the pale order treatment: just make the buffs scale with group size. This way casual solo players still get to be OP without affecting group content.

Schared

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

You answered your own question --- whether you farm Pillars of Nirn, or Oakensoul, you are still farming out the gear to get your DPS.

I have run a HA build for about 18 months, now.... a YEAR BEFORE Oakensoul ... simpler rotation than using Oakensoul, and easier, as it gives the equivelent of 6600 Health Regen.,,, I have to dodge MORE when using Oakensoul, as while the "tankiness" (a term that can't really be measured), is the same, there isn't as much healing in Oakensoul as there is in Crit Surge.

By the way, I built that character 1 month after I started playing.... so, I was a Noob..... and to be perfectly honest, my damage has been pretty consistent before and after Oakensoul..... and I tend to die MORE often with Oakensoul equipped, as I forget I then need to heal more often......
This is not new.... but I do notice that last line about beaten by noobs..... because it lends a lot of weight to the argument that this is about insecurity, and gatekeeping, more than anything else.....

People using Oakensoul are buying High Isle, paying for either DLC, or ESO plus, and then working to get it.
It is a 5 piece mythic... oh look at that, 5 pieces, just like Pillars of Nirn...
And, these people are paying subscriptions....
And you are stating that many people are doing it... do you really want to push that many paying subscriptions off to other games.....

I pay for 3 subscriptions, mine, my fiance', and my step mother... my stepmother uses Oakensoul on a 2-handed build.... because being in her 60's, she doesn't swap bars well..... I play with it, but only use it, say 10% of the time.... I haven't found a real build I like with it..... I do just as much without it, and most of my builds would be considered bar and a half builds, as I only really swap bars about 20 to 25% of the time..... I tend to build 1 bar builds that run me about 65K, which is MORE than enough to clear anything I want to clear... but also that I can consistently do, even in groups..... where I usually run 30 to 35K.
Should I be punished for my builds, because I am not hitting the swap bar on the appropriate schedule? Am I not staring at my bar hard enough doing the prescribed ritual mashing?
I am in my mid-50's... so NO, I am not going to change the way I do things..... but if the ring gets nerfed... I am pretty sure my step mother would leave.... and my fiance' and I would too... as we would all go to a game where we can run together and enjoy clearing material...... all because people seem to be upset that newer players.... oh wait... Noobs..... are learning and having fun, and it challenges their place......

I thought that attitude was something to be found in lesser games, like WOW, and tabletop wargames, where people throw tantrums and argue rules, when they get beaten, rather than just accept and enjoy the game...... guess I was wrong about that.

Auldwulfe

Hey man, theres no need to attempt to guilt trip anyone.
If you three are leaving it may be better for everyone else, which would suck as everyone is welcome in the community but changing everything just so inclusion approaches 100% will exclude more than you are aware off.

How is your argument that your enjoyment of the game will be reduced if something gets nerfed in any way more relevant than someone who enjoys it the other way around. And once again I would suggest that people already are leaving hence you may be betting on the wrong horse friend.'

We obviously havent met online yet, so I dont know the way to play but assuming your age's are not a lie none of your worries are related to age - matter the fact is there used to be an even older player running in a score running group making for hilarious antiques between himself and those who were at times 50 years younger than him.
Sadly both said 20 year olds and the 70 year old have since left the game for various reasons.

About the gear grind Iam sort of with you. I have been suggesting for a longer time now that much of the disconnect between communities hails from the fact that every other patch the meta gets turned upside down requiring refarms for everyone. Iam not sure if you play throughout 2018 when stamina nightblade was meta for over a year with roughly the same rotation but peoples damage became alot closer back then and the gap was lessened compared to what it is today. The part that may worry you particulary that is widely overlooked by most in this discussion is the fact that the current strength of the build is not a product of careful planning but rather an accident - meaning no matter how any of us argue it may vanish tommorow either way.
I instead fear that the current bandaid solution that leads to grander issues may require a secondary and tertiary one that will make the game accessible to some but unrecognizable to many.

Schared

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.[/quote]

My daughter who is on the Autistic spectrum with Dyspraxia, causing balance and co-ordination problems, farmed Oakensoul herself including Sergents Mail and building Order's Wrath.

This was a MAJOR and I mean MAJOR achievement for her and she deserves every drip of damage that she can wring out of it.

She farmed, built and learned the limited rotation and she would still not out-parse anyone.

But she can now enjoy aspects of the game with her guild that she could not before, without being carried.

She'll never do trials or vet dlc.

In what way does she possibly impact your game?[/quote]


I believe you may have tagged the wrong guy, the one you did tag was arguing in your direction.
Also while people like your daughter are important obviously and should be included I believe the interaction with the game itself should be improved rather than compensation within it. As the latter affects everyone while the former would only improve her experience.
Iam not familiar with said illness but I would assume that it affects a minority, so building around it may alienate a majority.
The way it impacts people has been elaborated in the many replies I made prior - its a bit of a read but if you could have a look and I could avoid repeating myself that would be hugely appreciated!

Feel free to also tag and DM if needed!

Schared

Kusto wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

While I appreciate your contribution please refrain from namecalling. Iam trying to convince people here that their perception of what is going on may be harmful and/or wrong and insults just ends up being a shoutfest.

I just want to repeat here that Iam not against the setup entirely - I just believe it is vastly overtuned in its current state and will remain hard to balance due to the tankiness, trifocus and damage that I mentioned in my original post.

Schared

[snip]

stay civil.

[removed quote]

Schared

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I think the main problem is that the current iteration of oakensorc build doesn't have any real drawbacks. Yes, you are limited to one bar, but many players actually see this as a boon. And yes, there are builds with higher dps, but they require much more practice, APM and they aren't nearly as tanky and self-sufficient.
I'm a casual sorc player, I tried this build and honestly it gives you way too much without any real downsides. It feels almost like exploiting. I also noticed that when I play as a healer, oakensorcs just ignore you and rush ahead (even in vet content) so the tankiness this ring gives you negatively affects group synergy. Being a healer feels more useless than ever when the best group composition is 3 oakensorcs.
I personally think that oakensoul ring should get the pale order treatment: just make the buffs scale with group size. This way casual solo players still get to be OP without affecting group content.

Interesting idea about the group size scaling. However that would not really adress the PvP issues nor the overland nukes. But great starting point Id say. I just think that THAT many buffs, THAT much cleave and THAT much simplicity will never come to a state were it is in line with anything considered "balanced". It is just to many variables.

PrincessOfThieves

Schared wrote: »

I just want to repeat here that Iam not against the setup entirely - I just believe it is vastly overtuned in its current state and will remain hard to balance due to the tankiness, trifocus and damage that I mentioned in my original post.

I agree. Heavy attack builds and one bar builds existed before Oakensoul and will still be a thing if it's nerfed, and they always were an option for people with bad ping, disabled players etc. They simply weren't powerful enough for trifectas, and I think that's fair.

ZOS_Kraken

Hello!

Please remember that while our opinions may vary, we should keep all debate constructive and not snipe at each other. We all would like the forums to remain respectful.

Zos_Kraken

Auldwulfe

Schared wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

How is it fair to the players who took the time to farm gear, learn rotation, practice weaving only to be out parsed by someone who couldn't even hit 50k before Oakensoul? I parse 110k with 2 bar build but I'm FORCED to use oaken ha build in content if I don't wanna get beaten by noobs.

You answered your own question --- whether you farm Pillars of Nirn, or Oakensoul, you are still farming out the gear to get your DPS.

I have run a HA build for about 18 months, now.... a YEAR BEFORE Oakensoul ... simpler rotation than using Oakensoul, and easier, as it gives the equivelent of 6600 Health Regen.,,, I have to dodge MORE when using Oakensoul, as while the "tankiness" (a term that can't really be measured), is the same, there isn't as much healing in Oakensoul as there is in Crit Surge.

By the way, I built that character 1 month after I started playing.... so, I was a Noob..... and to be perfectly honest, my damage has been pretty consistent before and after Oakensoul..... and I tend to die MORE often with Oakensoul equipped, as I forget I then need to heal more often......
This is not new.... but I do notice that last line about beaten by noobs..... because it lends a lot of weight to the argument that this is about insecurity, and gatekeeping, more than anything else.....

People using Oakensoul are buying High Isle, paying for either DLC, or ESO plus, and then working to get it.
It is a 5 piece mythic... oh look at that, 5 pieces, just like Pillars of Nirn...
And, these people are paying subscriptions....
And you are stating that many people are doing it... do you really want to push that many paying subscriptions off to other games.....

I pay for 3 subscriptions, mine, my fiance', and my step mother... my stepmother uses Oakensoul on a 2-handed build.... because being in her 60's, she doesn't swap bars well..... I play with it, but only use it, say 10% of the time.... I haven't found a real build I like with it..... I do just as much without it, and most of my builds would be considered bar and a half builds, as I only really swap bars about 20 to 25% of the time..... I tend to build 1 bar builds that run me about 65K, which is MORE than enough to clear anything I want to clear... but also that I can consistently do, even in groups..... where I usually run 30 to 35K.
Should I be punished for my builds, because I am not hitting the swap bar on the appropriate schedule? Am I not staring at my bar hard enough doing the prescribed ritual mashing?
I am in my mid-50's... so NO, I am not going to change the way I do things..... but if the ring gets nerfed... I am pretty sure my step mother would leave.... and my fiance' and I would too... as we would all go to a game where we can run together and enjoy clearing material...... all because people seem to be upset that newer players.... oh wait... Noobs..... are learning and having fun, and it challenges their place......

I thought that attitude was something to be found in lesser games, like WOW, and tabletop wargames, where people throw tantrums and argue rules, when they get beaten, rather than just accept and enjoy the game...... guess I was wrong about that.

Auldwulfe

Hey man, theres no need to attempt to guilt trip anyone.
If you three are leaving it may be better for everyone else, which would suck as everyone is welcome in the community but changing everything just so inclusion approaches 100% will exclude more than you are aware off.

How is your argument that your enjoyment of the game will be reduced if something gets nerfed in any way more relevant than someone who enjoys it the other way around. And once again I would suggest that people already are leaving hence you may be betting on the wrong horse friend.'

We obviously havent met online yet, so I dont know the way to play but assuming your age's are not a lie none of your worries are related to age - matter the fact is there used to be an even older player running in a score running group making for hilarious antiques between himself and those who were at times 50 years younger than him.
Sadly both said 20 year olds and the 70 year old have since left the game for various reasons.

About the gear grind Iam sort of with you. I have been suggesting for a longer time now that much of the disconnect between communities hails from the fact that every other patch the meta gets turned upside down requiring refarms for everyone. Iam not sure if you play throughout 2018 when stamina nightblade was meta for over a year with roughly the same rotation but peoples damage became alot closer back then and the gap was lessened compared to what it is today. The part that may worry you particulary that is widely overlooked by most in this discussion is the fact that the current strength of the build is not a product of careful planning but rather an accident - meaning no matter how any of us argue it may vanish tommorow either way.
I instead fear that the current bandaid solution that leads to grander issues may require a secondary and tertiary one that will make the game accessible to some but unrecognizable to many.

I think the tone came across wrong --- it is that there are people that NEED to use it for accessibility to the game... I run with one that does......
Myself, I use it on rare occasions.... I am a 50+ year old combat vet..... and some things don't work as intended, anymore.... 30 years ago, I'd have been a top score pusher, had the game existed... now, I have bursitis, and can't raise my left arm past horizontal ....... on those days that my "rewards" for my younger activities rear their heads.... I may use it, just to get through. However, my stepmother does need it......

It was more that it isn't just affecting those that use it... you will lose a LOT of people, as many of those use it to run with friends, etc.....
Since my fiance' who also has arthritis in her hands, but just runs single bar, without it, as she can't do the grind, and I run with my stepmother... we'd be obligated to migrate with her, so that we can all still run together... and if that were to happen, then there is no point in maintaining 3 full ESO+ subs.......

Auldwulfe

Billium813

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I think the main problem is that the current iteration of oakensorc build doesn't have any real drawbacks. Yes, you are limited to one bar, but many players actually see this as a boon. And yes, there are builds with higher dps, but they require much more practice, APM and they aren't nearly as tanky and self-sufficient.
I'm a casual sorc player, I tried this build and honestly it gives you way too much without any real downsides. It feels almost like exploiting. I also noticed that when I play as a healer, oakensorcs just ignore you and rush ahead (even in vet content) so the tankiness this ring gives you negatively affects group synergy. Being a healer feels more useless than ever when the best group composition is 3 oakensorcs.
I personally think that oakensoul ring should get the pale order treatment: just make the buffs scale with group size. This way casual solo players still get to be OP without affecting group content.

It feels like exploiting because it kinda is. Lightning Staff channel damage is being disproportionately buffed by HA sets compared to every other weapon choice. This used to also be a thing on Restoration Staff, but ZOS quickly stepped in because "we can't have Restoration Staff hitting that hard!". But for some reason, we are ok with Lightning Staff being heads/tails better than all other weapons. HA builds though have always been there, but Oakensoul, and Empower, just came along and cranked it up to 12. I honestly don't think it's Oakensouls fault, I think the issue is mostly that Lightning Staff is overtuned.

On the topic of Oakensoul, I think the real issue is when Oakensoul becomes viable en mass. See, one important downside is supposed to be that some of the buffs you get are redundant in organized PvE. Except... if everyone runs Oakensoul, because it's the meta, then it really starts to destroy traditional support roles as it isn't Oakensoul users that are redundant, but the support itself! Suddenly the group can focus on damage way more than sustain or healing or buffs. It starts to push the damage caps higher and higher!

I'm fully in support of Oakensoul getting the Ring of the Pale Order treatment. I think buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance, Minor Berserk, Minor Protection, & Major Resolve make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

PrincessOfThieves

Auldwulfe wrote: »

and if that were to happen, then there is no point in maintaining 3 full ESO+ subs.......

Auldwulfe

But one bar builds, heavy attack and other easy builds (magplar etc) were a thing for much longer than the whole antiquity system. They were viable for things like vet content and solo arenas, too...

Ingenon

Except Oakensoul is not the meta. Public ESO data proves this.

Look at the numbers. https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards
These numbers are the same as folks playing on PC-EU and PC-NA see while playing ESO.

First on the list Aetherian Archive. PC-EU top team for this trial has 6 dragonknights. PC-NA top team for this trial has 6 dragonknights.

Look at Dreadsail Reef, it just was released in 2022. PC-EU top team for this trial has 7 dragonknights. PC-NA top team for this trial has 5 dragonknights.

Sorcerer builds are outnumbered by other class builds on the top scoring teams.Top PvE scoring teams are not playing with all Oakensoul Sorcerer builds.

I'm fine with folks posting they don't like someone else's build, but I'm not fine with folks saying someone else's build is meta, when anyone can look the the leaderboard numbers and see that that is not true.

Also, ZOS published in the latest Update patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized."

ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between top players and everyone else. Not increase it.

Nerfing a build that is not meta will increase the gap between top players and other players, and I think it is not a good idea.

jaws343

Ingenon wrote: »

Except Oakensoul is not the meta. Public ESO data proves this.

Look at the numbers. https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards
These numbers are the same as folks playing on PC-EU and PC-NA see while playing ESO.

First on the list Aetherian Archive. PC-EU top team for this trial has 6 dragonknights. PC-NA top team for this trial has 6 dragonknights.

Look at Dreadsail Reef, it just was released in 2022. PC-EU top team for this trial has 7 dragonknights. PC-NA top team for this trial has 5 dragonknights.

Sorcerer builds are outnumbered by other class builds on the top scoring teams.Top PvE scoring teams are not playing with all Oakensoul Sorcerer builds.

I'm fine with folks posting they don't like someone else's build, but I'm not fine with folks saying someone else's build is meta, when anyone can look the the leaderboard numbers and see that that is not true.

Also, ZOS published in the latest Update patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized."

ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between top players and everyone else. Not increase it.

Nerfing a build that is not meta will increase the gap between top players and other players, and I think it is not a good idea.

Not to mention that a build that caps out at 30% less dps is by definition not a meta build.

PrincessOfThieves

Ingenon wrote: »

Except Oakensoul is not the meta. Public ESO data proves this.

It's not meta for leaderboards, but for regular mid-tier raiders and dungeoneers it definitely is. Score pushers are a tiny minority of a tiny minority, and for someone who's in 80-100k range Oakesoul is the best thing they can have, therefore it is meta (=most efficient tactic available). There are already groups that are only recruiting oakensorcs for things like vAS trifecta and dungeon achievements, and since most guilds are logging runs these days, lots of mid-tier raiders are peer pressured in using this build so that they do not underperform compared to others.
Not to mention that mid-tier groups rarely have super-optimized support setups, and oakensorcs are almost entirely self-sufficient. Because of that, any other build is in a disadvantage compared to them.

jaws343 wrote: »

Not to mention that a build that caps out at 30% less dps is by definition not a meta build.

Those higher dps builds shine in optimized groups and require much more effort to use effectively. Most people are unable to do 130k even with a meta build, but everyone can be an oakensorc.

Ingenon

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

PrincessOfThieves

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

jaws343

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

PrincessOfThieves

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I don't do trial trifectas if that's what you mean by "serious content". But in vet dungeons and such it greatly reduces reliance on healers when you can just have 3 dds and a matriarch for heals.

jaws343

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I don't do trial trifectas if that's what you mean by "serious content". But in vet dungeons and such it greatly reduces reliance on healers when you can just have 3 dds and a matriarch for heals.

But that isn't an Oakensoul problem. 3 DPS and a Tank is literally already the most efficient way to do things, and 3 two bar DPS are going to be far more effective at it than 1 bar builds due to having more skills to work with to support no having a healer.

And by serious, I mean anything not basegame, or normal.

PrincessOfThieves

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I don't do trial trifectas if that's what you mean by "serious content". But in vet dungeons and such it greatly reduces reliance on healers when you can just have 3 dds and a matriarch for heals.

But that isn't an Oakensoul problem. 3 DPS and a Tank is literally already the most efficient way to do things, and 3 two bar DPS are going to be far more effective at it than 1 bar builds due to having more skills to work with to support no having a healer.

And by serious, I mean anything not basegame, or normal.

It exacerbates the problem, though.
For example, in pledge runs a regular dd who rushes in without waiting for the healer, is likely to die. Oakensorc, not so much, they will just heal themselves or use surge.
And I'm not sure its that much worse than a regular build all things considered. At least in my guilds I often see people specifically looking for oaken dds for certain trials and dungeons.

FrancisCrawford

I'm still trying to understand who is harmed by a PvE build they don't like becoming strong.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I don't do trial trifectas if that's what you mean by "serious content". But in vet dungeons and such it greatly reduces reliance on healers when you can just have 3 dds and a matriarch for heals.

Healers have long had hybrid roles of healing/buffing/DPS. My standard assumption PUGging dungeons was something like:

• Players would usually heal themselves.
• I would overheal to provide Major Courage via Spell Power Cure.
• I should stand ready for emergency heals.
• I should help with sustain, via orbs, shards, and/or Elemental Drain..
• Combat Prayer wasn't worth the trouble.

What of that is changed by Oakensoul heavy attackers? They don't need sustain (but the tank still might). What else?

That said, I'm tempted to go heal on an Oakensorc myself -- with a Matriarch of course. That could deprive my team of Major Courage, but allow me to do a lot more DPS myself. Or maybe a heavy attack templar. Hell, I could even do SPC as one of the sets, compromising my own DPS to the benefit of my teammates'.

How are people actually handling heavy attack healing?

axi

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

Depends of what You mean by serious content. Personally as oakensorc I was able for example to survive vCR downstairs when tank died because oakensorc can even survive Z'maja oneshots. I also don't need a healer at all in vAS HM, I can either ignore or react more slowly to most of the mechanics there since other than oneshots everything else just tickles me there. Soloing vet DLC HM dungeons also isn't that hard. Properly build on oakensorc You can reach like 32k HP and 28k reisistances with minor protection and aegis on top of it which makes You really tanky.

BaalMelqartu

I really just hope that they come out with MORE differing combat playstyles so there aren't the two main ones we see now: Heavy attack builds and light attack builds. In my experience, whenever there are only two primary "teams", whether it be in the arena of this whole debate, religion, politics, ethics, etc, people tend to villainize the opposing team and then they start choosing their statements and arguments based solely on the egoic need to maintain self importance and a sense of self justice. I'm not expecting humanity in general to all of a sudden start letting other people be, so I hope a lot more options are added.