Heavy Attack Builds

colossalvoids

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

Interesting bunch of assumptions. I do not do leaderboards content now, at all. Nice bait though. Oaken is still absolutely unbalanced and that's not even debatable. No one is trying to steal your toy by stating obvious, zeni balances the game without our input and would do what they want ultimately.

Ingenon

colossalvoids wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

Interesting bunch of assumptions. I do not do leaderboards content now, at all. Nice bait though. Oaken is still absolutely unbalanced and that's not even debatable. No one is trying to steal your toy by stating obvious, zeni balances the game without our input and would do what they want ultimately.

To me, balance means equivalent. When a balance beam is level, both sides are the same weight.

Which build produces the highest score on the PvE leader boards for all or most content? I believe that build is unbalanced for PvE.

And I still don't see why folks using an HA/Oakensoul build to complete PvE content is bad for the game. Especially when in most trials/dungeons/arenas someone else is top of the leader board using a different build.

Bushido2513

colossalvoids wrote: »

@colossalvoids

Oaken is still absolutely unbalanced and that's not even debatable.

I don't know if I could go with that. I mean I enjoy PVE from time to time but wouldn't run oaken because of the tradeoff. For me I don't want the game to be that simplistic when PVE can already be very simplistic.

I would imagine that I'm not the only one who just doesn't play it because they don't like the tradeoff. Same with people I see that play it in PVP. They play it for easy access to gameplay but not because they become killing machines or anything.

Now I will say this, every single set and skill in this game could use some level of adjustment. So if you want to say it's technically unbalanced by that measure then yes it's somewhere in the range of things that could be tweaked but that's nothing new or crazy in this game.

It was truly unbalanced in the first iteration and then was brought in line a bit. Could it be further adjusted as I pointed out above, sure, but is it as bad as it was or as OP as if say it didn't have the 1 bar tradeoff, not at all.

Yes the ring gives 100 percent uptime on a lot of buffs but you also lose 5 skills and a second ultimate. Granted some of the buffs line up exactly with skills you lose but they don't account for other effects on this skills or passives that might also be granted.

So the degree of gain or loss is yes a little debatable depending on your choice of playstyle, the class, the content, and so on. Oaken certainly works in a variety of situations but it's not exactly a one size fits all to let's say your wildest dreams of mix and match playstyle.

Now if it say gave you all skills and also gave you all the buffs then yeah that would be pretty much not even debatable I would think.

Katlefiya

colossalvoids wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

Interesting bunch of assumptions. I do not do leaderboards content now, at all. Nice bait though. Oaken is still absolutely unbalanced and that's not even debatable. No one is trying to steal your toy by stating obvious, zeni balances the game without our input and would do what they want ultimately.

You are free to interpret the "you" I used as addressing the "people having issues" with Oakensoul/HA builds.

Bushido2513

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

Interesting bunch of assumptions. I do not do leaderboards content now, at all. Nice bait though. Oaken is still absolutely unbalanced and that's not even debatable. No one is trying to steal your toy by stating obvious, zeni balances the game without our input and would do what they want ultimately.

You are free to interpret the "you" I used as addressing the "people having issues" with Oakensoul/HA builds.

But you quoted this person when using the word you so wouldn't it generally be thought to be towards the person you're quoting?

Even if you were addressing a group of people wouldn't that still include the person you're quoting when talking about that group if you say it's not but people like you?

Katlefiya

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But you quoted this person when using the word you so wouldn't it generally be thought to be towards the person you're quoting?

Even if you were addressing a group of people wouldn't that still include the person you're quoting when talking about that group if you say it's not but people like you?

Well, to me it read as if the previous poster had adopted the view of this group of players, which is why I addressed him directly. That may have been wrong. However, I still stand by the content of my reply.

Edit: fixed quote tags.

Bushido2513

Katlefiya wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

But you quoted this person when using the word you so wouldn't it generally be thought to be towards the person you're quoting?

Even if you were addressing a group of people wouldn't that still include the person you're quoting when talking about that group if you say it's not but people like you?

Well, to me it read as if the previous poster had adopted the view of this group of players, which is why I addressed him directly. That may have been wrong. However, I still stand by the content of my reply.

Edit: fixed quote tags.

Fair enough, I just think it's important to be specific when choosing to either address a person vs a group because then things can start to feel like a direct attack instead of just sharing opinions.

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I think the biggest disconnect here, though, is that the people against it, don't use it, and have NO IDEA, really, of what they are talking about. They refuse to use it, and rely on what Billy Bob overhead from his sister / wife from her brother /boyfriend Jimmy Joe.

So, let's look at what it really does...... all the requirements in DLC and grinding have already been covered.... so let's talk.
I have used it as a healer... why? It let me keep up with the zerging duel bar dungeon rushers in Pug dungeons..... as I got really tired of being called a "Fake Healer" because you can't heal people through walls, and when you have 2 DPS people in 2 different spots...... well, there you go. That was the first place I actually used it..... then I decided to try it on my Duel Wield Templar.... just because I was getting frustrated with that character, as I couldn't get a good style for playing him in.... and yeah, it sort of helped, as long as All I wanted to do was flurry along.....so I took it off, as it was TOO limiting.
Most buff skills also give you effects.... with Oakensoul, you get the buff, but NONE of the effects that would also go along with it..... and with the right combo of sets, you CAN get, pretty much, everything Oakensoul gives, and STILL have 10 skill slots to work with.

Tried it on a nightblade... didn't even finish the first test run in the delve I was testing it in, before I took it off.....
My DK Fire Mage... nope
MY Warden Frost Mage... nope
I do use it, occasionally, on my DK Tank.... because in PUG dungeons, not everyone bothers to work with people, or bring their own buffs... and again, it gave me enough support there, but also limits me to ONE taunt... and a very small pool of skills.... so I either have to stop between fights, if I can, to swap to other skills, or must rely on being a one trick pony, and hope it works.

So, where does it seem to be overpowered....
One combo is the ONLY place it is an issue ... and that is with lightning staves, and heavy attack armor sets ....
AND, you can get the same exact abuse without it.... many of us have proven that, repeatedly.... and it is ridiculously easy to do so. For that matter, I can take a SORC, and only EVER use 3 buttons, and one of those, only once every 33 seconds, and get HIGHER DPS, that I get using the Oakensoul on that build... as well as a unique buff that you can't get from Oakensoul.

As another person put it, DPS is all that matters... well, I can hit HIGHER DPS with LESS work, without Oakensoul.....and do it while making two identical bars ... so even if I am swapping, there is nothing gained......

The issue has NOTHING to do with Oakensoul.... it's being used as an excuse..... because it's "NEW and SCARY"

What it does do, is allow people to come to terms with HOW the buffs work in game, and learn how things interact ... I learned more about set combinations, after I practiced with it, for a bit, than I ever knew before...... because NOW, I could see how those buffs worked in action.

The reason that people claim Oakensoul users DON'T have to manage resources is because NO HA style has to worry about resources.... take a bow, go hold your mouse button..... or a 2H weapon.... you get stamina BACK with each swing..... if that's all you do, you don't worry about resources..... pretty simple, to be honest.

And Empower is not the problem, as it would then be showing up with EVERY type of heavy attack. overpowering them, not just lightning..... and we are not seeing duel wields running around relying on empower, despite being the highest DPS weapon style... or fire staves, or ice staves, etc.....

The issue is that lightning is both single target AND AOE..
Sometimes the splash damage seems to hit a huge area, and other times, it doesn't hit the guy touching the target (I assume that is positional lag), but it is reliable, by itself in both situations.....

The abuse is strictly in the interaction with lightning staves and sets that boost heavy attacks ... but really isn't out of line with people combining Pillars of Nirn with other sets ..... or ball groups.... or Mara's Balm.... and so on.

What we have are horse and buggy people, angry that the car owner doesn't need to do all the maintenance to care for a horse.... I can imagine what hunter gatherers, using sticks to dig would think of modern engineered shovels......

Will it be abused?.... history shows that some people WILL abuse anything, given the opportunity.... look at medications.

And, honestly, I think the reason it's the rage with videos on youtube has NOTHING to do with how it works, or not....
The people hating on Oakensoul are falling for clickbait.... the "influencers" are suddenly realizing what HA players already knew... and hyping it to idiotic proportions in a bid to get back viewers they lost with U35...... and on some of these videos, seeing where things jump, I wonder how MANY edits they did to get what they claim they did.

At this point, nerfing Oakensoul would guarantee that the exodus this time, would make the U35 Exodus look like a leaky faucet next to an, in use, firehose. If we are really honest, we are playing a game that has been in BETA for nearly a decade..... with huge sweeping combat changes, at least once a year over it's history... and that has more and more competition popping up every month.

The game has really NEVER had combat balance (DK go Brrrrr), but I remember when Templars were king...... and NB ganking has yet to go out of style..... feel bad for Necros and Sorcs, right now, because they are being pushed into HA styles to keep up...... but that's probably so the Arcanist can sell the next expansion.

In the end, I would imagine a LOT of people are using it because, right now, it works..... not because they specifically want to. I would LOVE to have my Sorc out there, being a master of the magics in Tamriel.. tossing "Enemies Explode" from Oblivion, and so on... but they tied magic to "wizzy sticks" that anyone can wiggle for effect.... and the class skills are kind of meh..... and due to console limitations... you can't carry that many, anyways... combined with poor design choices when it comes to pet management.

If I truly wanted to be a damage king and play god... I'd go DK, with the lighting staff with fire glyph to help burn... 2 bars, and really lean into that whole burning focus..... imagine using Ash Cloud with it's 18 second snare at 70%, to control choke points, a quick firebreath to get the burning started, and then the lighting staff, on all those close together, snared targets..... and Occult Overload thrown in for a little extra love and joy.........Even with the change to Helping Hands, which a lot of us never relied on, much, anyways... you can STILL use a glyph to make Ashen Cloud a FREE DPS Snare that applies status...... and you worry about this single mythic......

Auldwulfe

Your adressing none of the discussed points and instead bring up different issues with the game that are not relevant to the post. Oakensoul is a bandaid applied to a myriad of issues.
Like you clearly have problems with the dynamic between players, the social aspect and gearing in general. Iam sure there are some good points inbetween but introducing something that umbrella's mayor issues instead of trying to fix them one by one is like Alexander the Great hacking the gordian knot apart instead of trying to dissolve it. It is not elegant, it does not preserve anything and it lays the groundworks for the next - even stronger - thing that in turn attempts to fix oakensoul/heavy attack builds.

And once more - even though I have mentioned it to a point of redundancy - damage, is but one of the points that is relevant. I assume everyone focusses on said point as they are able for the first time to perform said numbers - but perhaps iam reaching here. Getting "good" at parsing takes 2 hours tops.

Oakensoul is a gallon of gasoline, if you throw it on any flame you're gonna get a roaring fire in seconds. I do think there is an issue with Oakensoul being heads/tails stronger than any other mythic in the game... but it doesn't seem to be the root cause of the inundation of HA builds and their insane damage atm; it's Lightning Staves base damage, range attack, unique channel damage combined with HA damage sets, and AOE cleave. It makes for an all around perfect combination that solves all DPS situations flawlessly. Oakensoul just comes along and does what it does: cranks the volume up to 12.

I think if we fixed HA sets to only apply buffs to the final hit, scaled back Lightning Staff damage a bit so that it isn't the single best single target DPS staff and to account for the AOE benefits, and buffed Inferno Staff so that it's damage was more comparable to Bow in the single target damage catagory (maybe even a bit less for flame damage synergies?), then we would be in a healthier place.

Exactly .... I took Oakensoul off of my lightning sorc... and left the pets, and did 2 identical bars -- imperial with undaunted passives, so VERY tanky already.
I am using Sergeant's mail, but only as both of my staffs, and jewelry, with an all light set of Order's Wrath with Slime Craw, in medium, for the medium armor passives, and my undaunted passive.

As for my skills, on both bars, Critical Surge, Mage Guild Radiant Magelight (for the passive crit boost, and the empower trigger, plus the unique buff of not being able to be stealth stunned), Daedric Prey, and both pets.... I did swap my ultimate for Flawless Dawnbreaker, but again, only for the Fighter guild passives, as I wasn't actually using an ultimate, enough, for it to matter.

I am doing the exact same damage as I did with Oakensoul, the rotation is even easier....as Critical Surge is only needed once every 33 seconds, and with a 60% chance to crit, and 2 pulses a second, I am getting the 3300 health, every second.... along with crits at 170%, and that bonus happens, pretty much, every second.

I also noticed, that when I swapped in a Restoration Staff, I got nearly the same overall in combat damage, just on single target, as no cleave.... but even in VET dungeons, I don't think I ever saw my health bar move, as there is so much passive healing, there, that nothing came near me. I even thought about dropping the Sergeant's Mail for any of the Healer sets that proc all kinds of bonus on overheals... but I am pretty sure that would be overkill .....

Thing is, with hybridization, and the newer weapons scaling off of stats... you can effectively build terrifying characters without the super focus on one stat, and only skills on that stat... absolutely NOTHING stops me from throwing all my points into Stamina on this character, and using the higher values I can get there, with the mage skills above, as heavy attacks mean I don't run out of energy, and my damage would scale off the higher stamina.

I only started using Oakensoul, to see what the fuss was about.... and I really can't tell that much of a difference in my lightning sorc, which existed LONG before Oakensoul did.... as I had him a year before High Isle was released..... except with Oakensoul my hands don't flash red, anymore, because I traded out Slimecraw.

Looking at it, overall, I do believe the real issue is that each pulse on a heavy attack with the two channel staff weapons is counting as an attack for crit and proc purposes....
Looking my last run, I healed 3300 EVERY second of a vet run in the dungeon.... AND still did 37.2K damage in play. I did that WITHOUT Oakensoul....

When I switched to the restoration Staff, that healing every second averaged out to about 12K, or so...... and my damage was 34K.
I am thinking of what could happen if I swapped the Sergeant's Mail for one of the sets that procs AOE bursts on damage .... they go off every second, and most also give a guaranteed status effect... and just add in Occult Overload.....
While it wouldn't, necessarily, be quite as high as the Cleave from lightning and Tri-focus... someone is going boom every second, and it is Oblivion Damage.

Auldwulfe

Schared

colossalvoids wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

We don't disagree much, one thing is that I define competetive from mechanical standpoint more of, like score calculations which are going into leaderboards. If something is messing up with it too much it's probably having some issues. Like was synergy between old perfected vas inferno and dk time ago, my favourite nerfed combination I guess. It wasn't that level but still got a quick axe to the neck, so if this actually some new direction from zeni I'd really like some backtracking to bring some fun and variability back at least. It's only half serious as after years and years of reading every single patch note I'm pretty sure they're having no actual plan and acting strictly reactively. And this time they just have no idea how to retain it's potential without hurting players that actually need it as a tool to progress through the game, not only overland (which would be a quick fix) but would hurt ones who first stepped into harder content just because of it feeling less pressure.

And interesting viewpoint - but I disagree with your last point. I believe the hardest difficulty should be a challenge and therefore create pressure - hence the word difficult. Relaxing attitudes are just as welcome, but perhaps in normal mode or veteran-nonhm.

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

The wound they created is largely based around their content release shedule and the impossibility for casual enjoyers to keep up with it, the general disconnect in communication between players and developers and the narrative that all endgamers only want one thing and that is keeping other people down.

Schared

haelgaan wrote: »

[snip]

Advanced players using Oakensoul are able to complete advanced content. The same advanced players are also able to complete the same content with their regular Nirn/Relequen sets. I would bet that those advanced players could also finish the content wearing Hunding's and Order's Wrath. The player that knows the mechanics and how to play can use nearly any combination of gear sets, maximize it, and be competitive.

Slapping Oak on and jumping in to content is not a pass to instant success. It's just a different set, and a different way to play, nothing more. Bad players that ignore mechs, stand in stupid, and die, are still bad players that ignore mechs, stand in stupid, and die even when wearing Oak. (easily evidenced by any of the many random's i've done - dps that dies is always dps that dies, regardless of whether they're dual wielding or using a l-staff)

HA builds are HA builds, they've been around forever. Oak only made them more visible, and has become a lightning rod for folks to attack. [snip]


[edited for baiting]

Sadly you are incorrect. Oakensoul does exactly that. Your assumption that it is still mostly the "player diff" doing something is outright wrong. It eases everything down to a level that it trivializes.

Part of your comment has been removed for baiting b4 i could read it, try finding different words so other peeps can have a look.

Schared

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

Schared

Katlefiya wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

So this is obviously comming from a place of frustration - but there are actualy FEWER ways "to the top" now. All steps the devs have taken semi-recently have eliminated ways to play the game. Look at hybridtization for example - the idea behind it was that people could play something closer to the spec they enjoy in any content. But the result is that the amount of viable specs got halved. I still see no StamDK's, other Magsorcs beside the heavy attack version, nightblades at all... and so on.
So after reducing the specs now they reduce the amoutn of viable sets and playstyles. There already where classes that used heavy attacks reguarly - healers for instace when using Roaring Opportunist. The different here is that the set is far more in tune with the spec and class and encourages group play as it is a 12 man buff rather than providing buffs for an individual player that are usually aviable in a group setting.

And if you believe, like so many others that any Endgamer is gatekeeping to any degree let me assure you - most people in that fraction of the community welcome competition and wish back the glory days of 5+ guilds on both servers pushing for content rather than 1 per server dominating. Please become one of them, please have fun raiding with us, please do beat our scores.

axi

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Schared

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Oh so you assumption is 0 to 100? Well obviously nobody can ever prove that properly. Iam saying from prog start to end.

Katlefiya

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Oh so you assumption is 0 to 100? Well obviously nobody can ever prove that properly. Iam saying from prog start to end.

So, what you are saying is, that these players had absolutely no prior knowledge of vRG HM and never ever did any runs without Oakensoul/HA builds before? Based on what evidence?

p00tx

Heavy attack builds are fine. It's not even doing top damage. There is no reason to nerf them. None. The only groups getting upper level trifectas with this build are groups who could get these titles with any gear in the game and are already well repped in the content. Literally none of us who routinely clear that content are even a little bit concerned about newer players accessing the titles. We're totally fine with it. This is literally the only way some [limited accessibility] players are ever going to gain access to these titles outside of buying them. Let them have them.

Bushido2513

p00tx wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are fine. It's not even doing top damage. There is no reason to nerf them. None. The only groups getting upper level trifectas with this build are groups who could get these titles with any gear in the game and are already well repped in the content. Literally none of us who routinely clear that content are even a little bit concerned about newer players accessing the titles. We're totally fine with it. This is literally the only way some [limited accessibility] players are ever going to gain access to these titles outside of buying them. Let them have them.

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

Ingenon

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

No, nerfing a HA Oakensoul build that is second best to a BIS LA weaving build is not necessary.

You want to "bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding."? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Having a HA Oakensoul build that allows more people to complete content sounds to me like a good way to get more people to buy and play ESO, and pay for ESO Plus.

Also, I see in the latest patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized". Sounds to me like ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between the top players and the middle players, not increase it.

Bushido2513

Ingenon wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

No, nerfing a HA Oakensoul build that is second best to a BIS LA weaving build is not necessary.

You want to "bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding."? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Having a HA Oakensoul build that allows more people to complete content sounds to me like a good way to get more people to buy and play ESO, and pay for ESO Plus.

Also, I see in the latest patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized". Sounds to me like ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between the top players and the middle players, not increase it.

I meant necessary for the current environment IF they want to make current content look harder and feel more rewarding.

I did not say I wanted this. I'm just saying that without improving the content that a mod to Oakensoul would likely be the way to make the content challenge gap seem more visible.

Again, I ultimately support building better content but we might never get that. If ZOS wants to make everyone able to do that content and make this a less competitive game I'm ok with that.

I wouldn't really hold up patch notes like they mean anything about what ZOS wants. They are just what ZOS wants right now for whatever mysterious reason.

Schared

Ingenon wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

No, nerfing a HA Oakensoul build that is second best to a BIS LA weaving build is not necessary.

You want to "bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding."? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Having a HA Oakensoul build that allows more people to complete content sounds to me like a good way to get more people to buy and play ESO, and pay for ESO Plus.

Also, I see in the latest patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized". Sounds to me like ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between the top players and the middle players, not increase it.

I dont know what your referincing but in alot of content heavy attack builds are not second class. Virtually any number of scenarios that cuts out a large amount of the provided buffs. This includes Solo-Overland, Solo-Arena, PvP, Dungeon 4man and low to mid tier raid groups.

Schared

p00tx wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are fine. It's not even doing top damage. There is no reason to nerf them. None. The only groups getting upper level trifectas with this build are groups who could get these titles with any gear in the game and are already well repped in the content. Literally none of us who routinely clear that content are even a little bit concerned about newer players accessing the titles. We're totally fine with it. This is literally the only way some [limited accessibility] players are ever going to gain access to these titles outside of buying them. Let them have them.

I suposse this goes in tangent with the gatekeeping point and for the millionst time I would like to adress the fact that damage is but one of the points made.
Plus while you are semi-correct that most people in said groups are achievement ready either way the cut down in progression time and increase in clear speed is significant. As asylum appears to be the most popular content to run these builds let me paint you an example picture. Most of the people that did the connected triple did so in 5-8min clear times. And going off your forum profile I assume that you are somewhat familar with cleartimes and how beating the last seconds is generally the hardest bit. The current clear time hovers around 3minutes.

Schared

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Oh so you assumption is 0 to 100? Well obviously nobody can ever prove that properly. Iam saying from prog start to end.

So, what you are saying is, that these players had absolutely no prior knowledge of vRG HM and never ever did any runs without Oakensoul/HA builds before? Based on what evidence?

That would be the exact opposite of what Iam saying. But to make myself clear:
I do not have a resume of everyone involved at hand nor have I kept track of what they do in their spare time.
But the progression of both presented content pieces was begun and finished, with the current group and setup, in under 2-3weeks.
If Iam still being unclear - please tag me again.

Sergykid

not only healers devalued but as i said earlier in the thread only to be lost by mass defensive posts, also trifectas, achievements, effort, gets devalued.
why would i care to get better when i can slap carry item to get my achievement?
for clarity, i don't have the item and i have nothing with it, i even got some tris as tank with having 3 broakensorcs with me. And on dd i do like a more complex playstyle.

this thing got to the point where it's a pillar of differentiation, like it got to instead of searching for something you google it.
Now u decide if u wanna work and put effort for it or take it easy and safely. Also going without healer on dungeon tris gets even better with all that defense.

Katlefiya

Schared wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Oh so you assumption is 0 to 100? Well obviously nobody can ever prove that properly. Iam saying from prog start to end.

So, what you are saying is, that these players had absolutely no prior knowledge of vRG HM and never ever did any runs without Oakensoul/HA builds before? Based on what evidence?

That would be the exact opposite of what Iam saying. But to make myself clear:
I do not have a resume of everyone involved at hand nor have I kept track of what they do in their spare time.
But the progression of both presented content pieces was begun and finished, with the current group and setup, in under 2-3weeks.
If Iam still being unclear - please tag me again.

Yeah ok, but isn't that a pointless metric? There is obviously a difference between a group of newcomers vs a group of players that already worked on HM progression with differents team members and different setups. The latter will have an easier/quicker way to success because they already invested their time into learning the mechanics of the fights.

An Oakensoul/HA setup may have been crucial for them to finally succeed (by raising the floor, one of the stated goals of the devs), and that would be totally fine.

Schared

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

You are wrong, it did not take them long. My educated guess is about 3 weeks total, max 5.

I think You didn't understood what I've said. You are claiming that it took them 3-5 weeks from their first ever visit in vRG in any setup to getting trifecta as oakensorcs there?

Oh so you assumption is 0 to 100? Well obviously nobody can ever prove that properly. Iam saying from prog start to end.

So, what you are saying is, that these players had absolutely no prior knowledge of vRG HM and never ever did any runs without Oakensoul/HA builds before? Based on what evidence?

That would be the exact opposite of what Iam saying. But to make myself clear:
I do not have a resume of everyone involved at hand nor have I kept track of what they do in their spare time.
But the progression of both presented content pieces was begun and finished, with the current group and setup, in under 2-3weeks.
If Iam still being unclear - please tag me again.

Yeah ok, but isn't that a pointless metric? There is obviously a difference between a group of newcomers vs a group of players that already worked on HM progression with differents team members and different setups. The latter will have an easier/quicker way to success because they already invested their time into learning the mechanics of the fights.

An Oakensoul/HA setup may have been crucial for them to finally succeed (by raising the floor, one of the stated goals of the devs), and that would be totally fine.

Perhaps your experience differs massively from me but hardmode and score progs ive been in often felt reset entirely whenever 2-3 new players joined the group. And as it is to exemplify the issue i doubt it is a pointless metric.

Ingenon

Schared wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

No, nerfing a HA Oakensoul build that is second best to a BIS LA weaving build is not necessary.

You want to "bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding."? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Having a HA Oakensoul build that allows more people to complete content sounds to me like a good way to get more people to buy and play ESO, and pay for ESO Plus.

Also, I see in the latest patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized". Sounds to me like ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between the top players and the middle players, not increase it.

I dont know what your referincing but in alot of content heavy attack builds are not second class. Virtually any number of scenarios that cuts out a large amount of the provided buffs. This includes Solo-Overland, Solo-Arena, PvP, Dungeon 4man and low to mid tier raid groups.

I'm referencing data from ESO Leaderboards. Sorcerer builds are not the most common on the top scoring teams.

Reference: https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards for today (4/2/2023). I apologize for the wall of text below.

Note that in all the listings, it simply show class. The sorcerers listed on a top scoring team may or may not be Oakensoul HA build Sorcerers.

Aetherian Archive: 12 players share the top score on PC-NA. 2 out of 12 are sorcerer class. They are outnumbered by the dragonknights (6 of 12) and necromancers (3 of 12).

Asylum Sanctorum: 12 players share the top score on PC-NA. 3 out of 12 are sorcerer class. They are outnumbered by the templars (6 of 12).

Blackrose Prison: 4 players share the top score on PC-NA. 2 templar class, 1 sorcerer class, 1 warden class.

Looking though all the listings, I see on PC-NA there might be a mostly Oakensoul Sorcerer team on PC-NA for Dragonstar Arena, where the top scoring team has 3 sorcerers and 1 necromancer. However the PC-EU top team has a higher overall score, with 2 templars, 1 nightblade, and 1 warden.

Schared

Ingenon wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Totally agree however nerfing Oakensoul is probably a necessary evil for the current environment.

What we really need is better content with a better reward system. Since we're probably not getting that nerfing Oakensoul will probably be the only way to bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding.

I think Oakensoul should keep the damage but maybe have buffs reduced enough so that team with healers and tanks could be more encouraged.

I really don't want this to be how this gets resolved but if it has to go that way I would rather them just make small adjustments that make the ring playable but bring it in line a bit. I'd really like to see the ralying cry treatment for some of the buffs so that group play would have to be a little more respected.

No, nerfing a HA Oakensoul build that is second best to a BIS LA weaving build is not necessary.

You want to "bring back that considerable gap that makes mediocre endgame content look more rewarding."? Sounds like a terrible idea to me. Having a HA Oakensoul build that allows more people to complete content sounds to me like a good way to get more people to buy and play ESO, and pay for ESO Plus.

Also, I see in the latest patch notes "In this update, we’re trying to keep the power of Light Attacks within a ~5% deviation at their highest production in an optimized build, while drastically increasing their performance for players who aren’t super optimized". Sounds to me like ZOS is actively trying to reduce the gap between the top players and the middle players, not increase it.

I dont know what your referincing but in alot of content heavy attack builds are not second class. Virtually any number of scenarios that cuts out a large amount of the provided buffs. This includes Solo-Overland, Solo-Arena, PvP, Dungeon 4man and low to mid tier raid groups.

I'm referencing data from ESO Leaderboards. Sorcerer builds are not the most common on the top scoring teams.

Reference: https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards for today (4/2/2023). I apologize for the wall of text below.

Note that in all the listings, it simply show class. The sorcerers listed on a top scoring team may or may not be Oakensoul HA build Sorcerers.

Aetherian Archive: 12 players share the top score on PC-NA. 2 out of 12 are sorcerer class. They are outnumbered by the dragonknights (6 of 12) and necromancers (3 of 12).

Asylum Sanctorum: 12 players share the top score on PC-NA. 3 out of 12 are sorcerer class. They are outnumbered by the templars (6 of 12).

Blackrose Prison: 4 players share the top score on PC-NA. 2 templar class, 1 sorcerer class, 1 warden class.

Looking though all the listings, I see on PC-NA there might be a mostly Oakensoul Sorcerer team on PC-NA for Dragonstar Arena, where the top scoring team has 3 sorcerers and 1 necromancer. However the PC-EU top team has a higher overall score, with 2 templars, 1 nightblade, and 1 warden.

I understand the point you are attempting to construct but may I suggest that it is infact a void point because even if assuming that HA builds are not the best - and you are correct there are scenarios where they are not: How many people can actualy pull that off.
Because in past discussions the fact that they try so hard to perform on that level was a point of critizism but now that people can do it so easily that point has virtually vanished.
And if it is the only quote on quote accessible option then it still eliminates all other builds.
What you are looking at is not fundamentally wrong but heavily influenced by an effect called survivor bias. If you are unfamiliar the tldr for our examples is: Who is really logging and making it public and what percentile does that represent. And is an argument that the single percentile can still outperform representative for the issue that affects everyone?

Ingenon

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

MidniteOwl1913

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

I agree. I don't know why so many people are obsessed with targeting "the other guys build". Don't want to use HA or Oakensoul then don't. Why do some people care so much about what other people use? How does it harm them?

Schared

Ingenon wrote: »

I believe that I have listed and referenced numbers ESO Leaderboards that shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are not the best, for ESO trials and arenas.

If you cannot prove using numbers from a public source like ESO Leaderboards that I am wrong, then I will continue to say that the data shows that HA Oakensoul Sorcerer Builds are second best to a well played LA weaving build, and do not need to be nerfed.

I believe that ESO should continue to allow folks to "play as they want", and to be able to complete PvE group content using more than one build. I like doing trials and random dungeons, and I find that many folks I group with on PS/NA are not using a HA Oakensoul Sorcerer build for DPS.

It's OK if you don't agree with me about allowing folks to "play as they want". You can join or form a guild with folks who do not use HA Oakensoul Sorcerer builds, and only do ESO group content with your guild mates.

I think it is wrong to push for nerfs to "the other guys build" for ESO PvE group play, when "the other guys build" is second best.

Hello, Hello, I believe I can double down and adress @MidniteOwl1913 here aswell and hope to dispell some missconceptions.

As I have now mentioned again Damage is but one part of the issue. Now if we are sticking to the question of damage here though let me elaborate. Without making it a definite but rather just speaking in VERY rough estimates I will try to paint a more detailed picture of the issue.
First off leaderboards - leaders are if anything very inconsistent. Looking at patches like whatever the tharrissian strangler-pre nerf patch was the damage output was so high that it took 3 patch cicles for people to reach similar numbers again. Scores also depend on the active groups - I believe right now we have 3 active score pushing groups that are contenders for said scores 2 on EU and 1 on NA. Obviously that does not include all players that "could" do scorepushing but it should give you an insight on how small the "endgame"-community really is. I believe if you stretch the term really it prolly comes out to about 50-70 per server and another 50-100 that are in the "washed up" category, which I count myself in. So for arguments sake lets say thats about 150 per server - and 300 total for Pc. (purely anecdotal) Active players for ESO have dropped consistently post covid and are currently averaging around 23,5k active players. Active here being people that login once every 24hours. (source: steamcharts) Note here obviously people use non-steam client to login and many people are not as active as endgamers meaning if the activity window would be set to "login once a week" it would scew the numbers vastly different. But again iam just attempting to paint a picture here just know that the actual endgame player count numbers are FAR lower than that as they just happen to be one of the most active communities. Alas for arguments sake lets say its 300 over 23500 meaning about 1,27% of the playerbase actively participate in pushing for scores. Below the scorepushers there are players who perform almost as good as they do but havent quite made their way into the community. Again I vastly exagarate these numbers but for the sake of argument lets bump the 1,27% up to 5% and say all those people can infact do better than the heavy attack sorc build.
Now with that in mind everything after those 5% that wants to actively do dungeon and raid content that requires damage which I presume is about 40-50% of the community basicly has now a singular option to play heavy attack builds rather than trying to mimic the 5%. Meaning virtually all builds inbetween those who just dont care for veteran content and those who push it are functionally useless as they simply are far worse than heavy attack builds.
While the argument that people "do not have to play that way" is valid and I cannot dispell it - I would like to challenge that if ur running say a 4man team - and 1 guy keeps dying/underperforming while the oakensorc of your group carries. Fingers will be pointed to the guy not doing heavy attack builds.
Additionally I keep repeating myself in the post but I'll just do it one more time - damage is one of multiple issues I have listed people are just only pay attention to the minor issue.

I can elaborate further on matters of paywalling, game direction, tankiness, buggy interactions, bias and all that good stuff but my goal here was just to show that being the second best actualy carries more weight in this scenario than being the best.
I also would encourage you two to read into anything that get screwed besides damage and form an opinion on the matter as Iam actualy interested in more perspectives.
Also if I wasnt clear here, either send another reply or DM me directly as Iam completely willing to explain it voice-to-ear if you will as typing always takes a 2minute topic and makes it a 10minute post.