Heavy Attack Builds

Heelie

Ignoring the dps site, can someone that defends oalensoul come up with a reason why a dps player should get all the different tank buffs? This is really the biggest strength of oakensoul. The empower you can just get from mages guild. I can tank vet trials doing 100k dps atm.

Auldwulfe

Eh, if the people crying about Oakensoul manage to bully the devs into nerfing it, I am sure something else will then surface ......
At some point, most people get to where if you plan on telling us how to play, then I hope you plan on paying the subscription costs .... there are many other games.....

If the casual players who DON'T think a game should be a second job, feel like they are being bullied, they will leave.... and their wallets go with them.

Auldwulfe

Soarora

blktauna wrote: »

Soarora, I must just have bad luck with random vet then. I no longer do them unless with a premade group of friends. It's too trying. I do agree that cowboys in a vet dungeon run are super annoying and I dislike dealing with them.

Soarora wrote:

I don't see how nerfing the survivability of oakensoul HA would affect any player of that playstyle who are following directions. I have barely seen any argument in this entire thread as to why the survivability is deserved.

The thing is, you are very specifically focused on dungeon running/trials running. There is a wider range of activities to consider.

Oaken HA builds cover all these activities, just like non oak one bar builds, LA weavers and non la weavers. Solo, overland and pvp needs the survivability. And TBH in practical use, it's not that great a help. a little but not over much, esp in pvp where battle spirit negates most of the perceived bonus.

Soarora wrote:

ZOS' narrowing of the meta (and even just what is viable at all) is the enemy. You all are defending a bandaid fix instead of fighting for what you deserve-- better balance.

I am in complete agreement that the changes ZOS has made in the meta are a giant pain point. We have deserved better balance for years. However we are not there right yet so we must work with the tools we have.

I have a theory there's a pattern to it. I find I get bad pugs back-to-back when I have them, I'm not sure if its time of day + day of the week or if there's several sub-queues based on a hidden MMR or if it so happens to be during events... so I do not blame you one bit for having that understanding of the vet dungeon queue. I have had some great experiences through it, found lots of people to put on my friends list and even an actual friend. It pains me to see others not get the same great overall experience-- but that's a topic unrelated to this thread.

The thing with those cases is that none of them are able to utilize the buff I propose is dropped: minor aegis. Minor aegis only applies in dungeons, trials, and arenas. Of course, when it comes to arenas I do not care one bit how survivable someone is. However, I do find that sustain can be a problem at least for me, something that oakensoul HA builds don't have to worry about as much as they heavy attack more often, plus having constant intellect from oakensoul. So, someone can use more magicka to heal themselves (and use shields if they have the barspace, plus I think oakensoul also gives health regeneration?) which I'd think balances out the loss of minor aegis (which isn't present in dps builds in the first place). I don't know "professional" arena builds but in general I don't see minor aegis having a place on a dps. It only comes from trial healer and tank sets. Oakensoul is largely used on dps so the tank/healer buffs obtained from it make no sense. I personally wouldn't trust an oakensoul support anyways... because they lack the barspace and weapon options to effectively buff/debuff.

ZOS right now seems to be understanding that the game really is sinking and that they need to do something. Now is the time more than ever to fight for proper balance. Proper balance obtained by small specific changes rather than big sweeping ones, balance that highlights niches and elevates them rather than destroying them.

blktauna

There's more to ESO gameplay than trials.

Enjoy your vet trial tanking!

blktauna

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS right now seems to be understanding that the game really is sinking and that they need to do something. Now is the time more than ever to fight for proper balance. Proper balance obtained by small specific changes rather than big sweeping ones, balance that highlights niches and elevates them rather than destroying them.

Much agreed. Sadly they only seem to have a sledgehammer at the minute. I'm sure this entire discussion will be moot or near moot when the new chapter drops.

Soarora

blktauna wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

ZOS right now seems to be understanding that the game really is sinking and that they need to do something. Now is the time more than ever to fight for proper balance. Proper balance obtained by small specific changes rather than big sweeping ones, balance that highlights niches and elevates them rather than destroying them.

Much agreed. Sadly they only seem to have a sledgehammer at the minute. I'm sure this entire discussion will be moot or near moot when the new chapter drops.

I think sledgehammering oakensoul HA would be the final nail in the coffin if it happened due to outrage... heck, even I'd be mad. This is pretty easy to predict based on general thought but also on how intensely people have defended it in this thread. But I have no allowance for ZOS' approach to balancing anymore. They need to do better and this could be the perfect tightrope to show that they can do minor changes (and maybe even enhance niches, if they find a way to re-validate 2-bar HA without making 1-bar HA OP) and fully explain why they make those changes in a way that makes sense to the players. If they fail in this, well, goes to show they can't--or won't--change.

Auldwulfe

Soarora wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Soarora, I must just have bad luck with random vet then. I no longer do them unless with a premade group of friends. It's too trying. I do agree that cowboys in a vet dungeon run are super annoying and I dislike dealing with them.

Soarora wrote:

I don't see how nerfing the survivability of oakensoul HA would affect any player of that playstyle who are following directions. I have barely seen any argument in this entire thread as to why the survivability is deserved.

The thing is, you are very specifically focused on dungeon running/trials running. There is a wider range of activities to consider.

Oaken HA builds cover all these activities, just like non oak one bar builds, LA weavers and non la weavers. Solo, overland and pvp needs the survivability. And TBH in practical use, it's not that great a help. a little but not over much, esp in pvp where battle spirit negates most of the perceived bonus.

Soarora wrote:

ZOS' narrowing of the meta (and even just what is viable at all) is the enemy. You all are defending a bandaid fix instead of fighting for what you deserve-- better balance.

I am in complete agreement that the changes ZOS has made in the meta are a giant pain point. We have deserved better balance for years. However we are not there right yet so we must work with the tools we have.

I have a theory there's a pattern to it. I find I get bad pugs back-to-back when I have them, I'm not sure if its time of day + day of the week or if there's several sub-queues based on a hidden MMR or if it so happens to be during events... so I do not blame you one bit for having that understanding of the vet dungeon queue. I have had some great experiences through it, found lots of people to put on my friends list and even an actual friend. It pains me to see others not get the same great overall experience-- but that's a topic unrelated to this thread.

The thing with those cases is that none of them are able to utilize the buff I propose is dropped: minor aegis. Minor aegis only applies in dungeons, trials, and arenas. Of course, when it comes to arenas I do not care one bit how survivable someone is. However, I do find that sustain can be a problem at least for me, something that oakensoul HA builds don't have to worry about as much as they heavy attack more often, plus having constant intellect from oakensoul. So, someone can use more magicka to heal themselves (and use shields if they have the barspace, plus I think oakensoul also gives health regeneration?) which I'd think balances out the loss of minor aegis (which isn't present in dps builds in the first place). I don't know "professional" arena builds but in general I don't see minor aegis having a place on a dps. It only comes from trial healer and tank sets. Oakensoul is largely used on dps so the tank/healer buffs obtained from it make no sense. I personally wouldn't trust an oakensoul support anyways... because they lack the barspace and weapon options to effectively buff/debuff.

ZOS right now seems to be understanding that the game really is sinking and that they need to do something. Now is the time more than ever to fight for proper balance. Proper balance obtained by small specific changes rather than big sweeping ones, balance that highlights niches and elevates them rather than destroying them.

No healing on Oakensoul

Auldwulfe

Stx

Oakensoul has minor mending as well. But it doesn’t matter. The whole point is you lose half your skill slots so you can all the common buffs as passives.

People in this thread are complaining about two different things. Heavy attack builds, and oakensoul builds.

Oakensoul itself isn’t anything special in a trial situation if the group is setup. Minor berserk, minor courage, minor force, minor slayer…. These are all buffs you normally have as any build while in a trial group. The major buffs are also easily gained from either a potion, or from the classes that provide them to the group. It’s literally just a quality of life mythic item. The passive empower is what makes it nice for heavy attack builds. But I would be willing to bet a well put together two bar heavy attack build would still beat out a one bar.

Then we have heavy attack builds. Which have done absolutely nothing to harm this game, and the only reason anyone has an issue with them is because they have the opinion that high APM light attack weaving should be the only way to play the game. Which is a miserable thought. I want to be able to flip the pages of a book when I’m fifty.

Soarora

Stx wrote: »

Oakensoul has minor mending as well. But it doesn’t matter. The whole point is you lose half your skill slots so you can all the common buffs as passives.

People in this thread are complaining about two different things. Heavy attack builds, and oakensoul builds.

Oakensoul itself isn’t anything special in a trial situation if the group is setup. Minor berserk, minor courage, minor force, minor slayer…. These are all buffs you normally have as any build while in a trial group. The major buffs are also easily gained from either a potion, or from the classes that provide them to the group. It’s literally just a quality of life mythic item. The passive empower is what makes it nice for heavy attack builds. But I would be willing to bet a well put together two bar heavy attack build would still beat out a one bar.

Then we have heavy attack builds. Which have done absolutely nothing to harm this game, and the only reason anyone has an issue with them is because they have the opinion that high APM light attack weaving should be the only way to play the game. Which is a miserable thought. I want to be able to flip the pages of a book when I’m fifty.

I have not seen any arguments against heavy attack builds without oakensoul or 1-bar oakensoul non-heavy attack builds in this thread to my memory. I decided to start making the distinction I meant heavy attack builds with oakensoul partway through but that was always my intent personally. Oakensoul largely provides buffs to make up for the lack skill slots, but it is not the case for all of the buffs on there. I take absolutely no issue with Oakensoul having 100% uptime on the common buffs, it's an upside to the downside of not having control over what the buffs are. But again, not all of the buffs on there are common buffs and there's no point in them being there. Empower can stay at least until another solution is found (mages guild is not a good source of empower, only 2 classes can effectively 2-bar HA unless someone else grants them empower or they give up a 5pc) but I see no reason at all for minor aegis to be on there. There are other non-common buffs that could be argued but really, I don't care that oakensoul gives people constant regeneration, and I don't really care about the minor mending either. Blocking through mechanics 2-bar dps can't is my problem.

Of course, there's also the argument that oakensoul HA is easier than 2-bar dps and shouldn't pull off the same content, but really, no that doesn't affect my play as a bystander. Oakensoul HA players ignoring mechanics does.

MidniteOwl1913

Sergykid wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

from what i saw in some dlc tris and hm farms, with equally skilled players the proper two bar build deals more damage by around 20% on bosses (f.e. 50k vs 60k). The only advantages oakens have is easier survivability and less stress. But this comes at cost of dps, so it should be alright.
on lower skill level, oaken seem to do more, but that's just cuz it's easier, not better.

if any nerf were to come on oaken it should be a small one to survivability. Maybe a nerf to tri focus cleave but that's not oakens and shock staves already struggle outside of oaken

But even if it was the exact same dps would it even matter? Like as an example it's ok to ask someone if they have trials gear or whatever flavor of the month because you want them to at least do a certain amount of damage but it's not ok for them to just do decent damage but not have to work as hard and therefore enjoy the game a bit more?

Also I'm not saying you but people act as if they need to feel validated by the uniform suffering of others lol. Like man why are you not working as hard as me over here even though we will still clear the content and enjoy the rewards.

The craziest part of this is that we're talking about a game in a situation that should be fun co op

you rightfully defend the victim but the aggressor is the victim too.
why the veteran guy that spent hours on getting gear and practicing his build is treated the same as someone that puts less effort?

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

We get same reward at the end of the dungeon and we both leave happily with the completion, but u should have less dps if u put less effort.

What about people who put in lots of effort and never get the same reward? People have different issues, high ping, painful hands, and disabilities. They too put in lots of time, by your logic should we just be able to gift them high DPS for time put in?

Yazrz

Maybe, just maybe, the difficulty in Dungeons/Arenas/Trials should be in executing the mechanics of the fight and coordinating with the group.

Having higher DPS will of course make many fights easier as the duration will be shorter, and e.g. adds will be cleared faster making tanking/healing easier.

But why are we even arguing that doing plain DPS, apart from chasing that last 10% of damage, should be difficult and something that we need to spend time chasing?

Schared

blktauna wrote: »

a few things,

Just because you choose to treat this game as a second job doesn't mean everyone else must. Feel free to do you but you are in essence gatekeeping when you demand everyone else play only in the way you approve.

Also you do not account for differing goals. Not all players aspire to the same things you do, and even with similar goals, may not wish to take the same approach as you.

Beefiness has nothing to do with Oaken HA builds. I run into mitigation tanks in pvp who are basically unkillable yet can two shot people. They are not HA builds, they are, however, generally DKs.

No one is entitled to demand others play only as they personally approve of, using only the tools and rotations they personally approve of.

As gatekeeping is something I have now been accussed off to a point of redundancy and I still obviously cannot disprove it to those who do not share background with me - [snip]

I do not demand anyone plays like I do nor treat the game as a job.

As this is not a pre-planned circumstance the current strength of the build is a biproduct of implementations that have happened over time. As such they may vanish as quickly as they appeared so I sincerely do not undestand peoples obsession with the idea of gatekeeping when the current state is accidental and I critique a specific product of randomness aswell as the overall game direction.

Players can take whatever approach they want to whatever goal they aspire to reach but your idea that all ways should work similarily good is ridicolous. You wouldnt bring a Boat to streetracing and expect the same results.

The beefiness I mention has everything to do with Oakensoul. Iam not contesting that your pvp experience may be bad for other reasons besides this particular one but I would like to adress a problem at a time.

Going of your other comments I can not tell what direction you actualy prefer to swing in as you are on one hand defending the setup basing it on non-discussion-relevant opinions and on the other hand critique build diversity which is very clearly in the same vein I argued as a one-size-fits-all build is clearly problematic for that exact reason.

Either way I would appreciate if you could move away from the acusatory tone.

[edited for baiting]

Schared

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Eh, if the people crying about Oakensoul manage to bully the devs into nerfing it, I am sure something else will then surface ......
At some point, most people get to where if you plan on telling us how to play, then I hope you plan on paying the subscription costs .... there are many other games.....

If the casual players who DON'T think a game should be a second job, feel like they are being bullied, they will leave.... and their wallets go with them.

Auldwulfe

As the game is clearly on a downwards trend only retaining people due to the covid boost all games received I would suggest that the way you may enjoy playing is not as universally liked. Iam not entitled enough as to believe that I have all the solutions nor even could do a better job - but I wish to adress this very particular problem.

Iam not bullying anyone as nobody on the internet yields real power over another - I find the acusation itself hilarious but would much rather have you actualy give opinions on your own rather than blanket-critiquing mine.

MMO's have always been time consuming but calling ESO a second job is laughable. The requirements for most content are relatively easy - most boil down to just have a friend explain them to you once or twice.

I understand that people like to punch up as the "endgamers" are a grand evil or something akin to it. Let me assure you here I have not taken part in any endgame activities since 2020. Just keep in mind that despite your perhaps dislike of that community they are one of the people that produce the most content surrounding the game, spend the most time online, interact the most with people either through explanation, addon or videos and are therefore a community just as valueable as the ones that enjoy more casual content - Id argue even more so.

Iam really not sure what many of the responses yearn for. At first I understood it as a need for an additional difficulty as the jump from normal to vet can be quite harsh - but the more I read into some of the responses the more I believe people would like literally anything to work. Doing the most difficult content with bucket and broom and solo...? I dont think having everything immidiatly and aviable no matter what is the way.

Schared

Yazrz wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, the difficulty in Dungeons/Arenas/Trials should be in executing the mechanics of the fight and coordinating with the group.

Having higher DPS will of course make many fights easier as the duration will be shorter, and e.g. adds will be cleared faster making tanking/healing easier.

But why are we even arguing that doing plain DPS, apart from chasing that last 10% of damage, should be difficult and something that we need to spend time chasing?

I agree with the first part - If your arguement would be that damage overall is to high, I would tend to agree too as I believe the ideology is backwards. Good DPs shouldnt skip mechanics instead being good on mechanics should reward with good DPS.

Iam a bit lost on the latter part on ur reply - am I right to understand that your saying that getting within 10% of the topend is easy and it is unnecessary to tryhard for the last bit? If that is the case I tend to agree.

Schared

What about people who put in lots of effort and never get the same reward? People have different issues, high ping, painful hands, and disabilities. They too put in lots of time, by your logic should we just be able to gift them high DPS for time put in?

I do not understand your argument here. Some of the points like high ping are things that just arent for the game to fix.

And the disability point has been brought up a plently - I dont think people realize how insensitive it is to suggest that handycapped people can only thrive under conditions that are easier by default. But perhaps I misunderstand you here.

Most people that put in alot of time, seek help and are able to apply changes themselves are able to improve massively.

Even though this may be a little much here but it unlocked a core memory for me - I obviously was garbage at some point too.
What happened is a player called @TerminalVelocity sat me down and streamed his - back in the day - stamblade rotation and told me where I screwed up. Whole ordeal took like two hours and then I practiced for another 4ish and had almost doubled my DPS. (Back in the day there was no raid dummy and one would parse on the skelly's I went from 32k to 54k within a single night.)

Schared

Stx wrote: »

Oakensoul has minor mending as well. But it doesn’t matter. The whole point is you lose half your skill slots so you can all the common buffs as passives.

People in this thread are complaining about two different things. Heavy attack builds, and oakensoul builds.

Oakensoul itself isn’t anything special in a trial situation if the group is setup. Minor berserk, minor courage, minor force, minor slayer…. These are all buffs you normally have as any build while in a trial group. The major buffs are also easily gained from either a potion, or from the classes that provide them to the group. It’s literally just a quality of life mythic item. The passive empower is what makes it nice for heavy attack builds. But I would be willing to bet a well put together two bar heavy attack build would still beat out a one bar.

Then we have heavy attack builds. Which have done absolutely nothing to harm this game, and the only reason anyone has an issue with them is because they have the opinion that high APM light attack weaving should be the only way to play the game. Which is a miserable thought. I want to be able to flip the pages of a book when I’m fifty.

As mentioned in previous comments I do not dislike the quality of life buffs oakensoul provides but would have the defensive buffs aswell as empower removed.

The thread is very clearly not adressing two different thing but the combination of the two as the issue only arose when it was put togheter. Heavy attack builds do have issues that need adressing no matter if looked at in a vacuum on in combination - issues I previously mentioned in my two posts. I will quickly mention them here as Tri-Focus, AoE size and resistance calculation - please do look them up in more detail in the prior posts.

Yazrz

Schared wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, the difficulty in Dungeons/Arenas/Trials should be in executing the mechanics of the fight and coordinating with the group.

Having higher DPS will of course make many fights easier as the duration will be shorter, and e.g. adds will be cleared faster making tanking/healing easier.

But why are we even arguing that doing plain DPS, apart from chasing that last 10% of damage, should be difficult and something that we need to spend time chasing?

I agree with the first part - If your arguement would be that damage overall is to high, I would tend to agree too as I believe the ideology is backwards. Good DPs shouldnt skip mechanics instead being good on mechanics should reward with good DPS.

Iam a bit lost on the latter part on ur reply - am I right to understand that your saying that getting within 10% of the topend is easy and it is unnecessary to tryhard for the last bit? If that is the case I tend to agree.

The last part, I think it *should* be easy to get within a reasonable range of topend, say 25%. Then tricky to get within 10%, and very hard to get the last bit. The numbers can of course be debated, but the gap between skillsets needs to be limited.

Performing the rotation should not be the main challenge of an encounter.

And as people have different preferences, I also think it is important to allow for different ways of playing.

Schared

Yazrz wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Yazrz wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe, the difficulty in Dungeons/Arenas/Trials should be in executing the mechanics of the fight and coordinating with the group.

Having higher DPS will of course make many fights easier as the duration will be shorter, and e.g. adds will be cleared faster making tanking/healing easier.

But why are we even arguing that doing plain DPS, apart from chasing that last 10% of damage, should be difficult and something that we need to spend time chasing?

I agree with the first part - If your arguement would be that damage overall is to high, I would tend to agree too as I believe the ideology is backwards. Good DPs shouldnt skip mechanics instead being good on mechanics should reward with good DPS.

Iam a bit lost on the latter part on ur reply - am I right to understand that your saying that getting within 10% of the topend is easy and it is unnecessary to tryhard for the last bit? If that is the case I tend to agree.

The last part, I think it *should* be easy to get within a reasonable range of topend, say 25%. Then tricky to get within 10%, and very hard to get the last bit. The numbers can of course be debated, but the gap between skillsets needs to be limited.

Performing the rotation should not be the main challenge of an encounter.

And as people have different preferences, I also think it is important to allow for different ways of playing.

Assuming your assesment is correct I still find this dubious as no content actualy needs top dps, nor the one provided by the critiqued setup. But alas best to let the original poster explain.

Ragnarok0130

blktauna wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

Vet dungeon puggers are there to get in and get out, not enjoy the activity. I don't agree with that at all but it is a separate issue from what build they are running. These are the same people in normal randoms who just pull a runner and are off killing everything so they get their crystals in under 10 mins. You are not their teammate, you are an inconvenience they must tolerate to get the random dungeon reward in the shortest time.

Nefas group shows HA is a perfectly viable way of approaching content. you still have to know the mechanics, you still have to put in the time to learn coordination and make sure buffs are covered etc. Note the difference between them as an organised group and some pugger who wants the dungeon over asap. Very disparate players who happen to use a similar build.

I'm not sure how that relates to what I posted however my experiences in vet dungeons are typically that people are competent, cordial, and team oriented. I typically see the "get in and out" while rushing ahead mentality in normal dungeons instead of veteran dungeons.

Ragnarok0130

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Eh, if the people crying about Oakensoul manage to bully the devs into nerfing it, I am sure something else will then surface ......
At some point, most people get to where if you plan on telling us how to play, then I hope you plan on paying the subscription costs .... there are many other games.....

If the casual players who DON'T think a game should be a second job, feel like they are being bullied, they will leave.... and their wallets go with them.

Auldwulfe

First the devs can't be bullied or U35 never would have released, but they do tend to appreciate data and feedback and the Oakensoul changes were a result of data and feedback from the PTS. If Oakensoul get a future nerf it will be a result of data since ZoS so loves their spreadsheets and not because of wailing and gnashing of teeth here on the forum.

Hardly any of the end game players I know treat ESO like a second job. The people I run with are competent, friendly, and very helpful to new players, but I've noticed that many self described casual players seem to think raid leads setting DPS or gear requirements for difficult content constitutes bullying or "gatekeeping" when it's really just establishing baseline requirements to ensure a reasonable chance at clearing that content. They also seem to think raid leads or even their fellow group members offering tips for improvement with their build, rotation, or skills constitutes some sort of bullying which is bizarre since one should want to improve and not languish at the beginner stage if you want to do group content.

Many self described casual players appear to want to be able to drop into veteran content with their Skyrim solo build instead of realizing that when you run group content, it's about the group and not you, so you need a real build, a rotation, and good armor with set bonuses for your build. That's not a second job that's baseline role competency for the content that one wishes to run. I think the biggest issue around oakensoul isn't even being discussed, and that is how the game totally fails training players to jump from overland to group content, and then from normal group content to veteran content.

Billium813

Heelie wrote: »

Ignoring the dps site, can someone that defends oalensoul come up with a reason why a dps player should get all the different tank buffs? This is really the biggest strength of oakensoul. The empower you can just get from mages guild. I can tank vet trials doing 100k dps atm.

Oakensoul has buffs that pertain to all three roles: DPS, Tank, Healer. I assume they do this so that Oakensoul isn't pegged to just one role; DPS. This way there can be Oakensoul Tanks. It makes the Mythic more well rounded except, the Tank buffs aren't non-applicable to DPS!

What about:
```
(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

If your role is set to Tank, you gain Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Heroism, and your Heavy Attacks apply Major Maim for 3 seconds.
If your role is set to DPS, you gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Berserk, Minor Force, Minor Courage, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis
If your role is set to Healer, you gain Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Major Heroism, and your Heavy Attacks apply Major Lifesteal for 3 seconds.
```

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Ignoring the dps site, can someone that defends oalensoul come up with a reason why a dps player should get all the different tank buffs? This is really the biggest strength of oakensoul. The empower you can just get from mages guild. I can tank vet trials doing 100k dps atm.

Oakensoul has buffs that pertain to all three roles: DPS, Tank, Healer. I assume they do this so that Oakensoul isn't pegged to just one role; DPS. This way there can be Oakensoul Tanks. It makes the Mythic more well rounded except, the Tank buffs aren't non-applicable to DPS!

What about:
```
(1 item) While equipped, you are unable to swap between your Primary and Backup Weapon Sets

If your role is set to Tank, you gain Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Heroism, and your Heavy Attacks apply Major Maim for 3 seconds.
If your role is set to DPS, you gain Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Berserk, Minor Force, Minor Courage, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis
If your role is set to Healer, you gain Major Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Major Heroism, and your Heavy Attacks apply Major Lifesteal for 3 seconds.
```

But, one of the skill slots you have to give up to even run the ring as a dps is often the skill that provides major resolve. Removing that conditionally defeats the whole point of the ring imo.

Not to mention, solo arenas exist.

There is no reason to change anything on the ring as it is right now. Running it implicitly means your active abilities are limited, and as such, your utility skills are practically non-existant. Which is where many of these buffs are meant to account for.

Not to mention, in a trial, most of these buffs end up being redundant. And with a good enough tank/healer, the damage mitigation stuff is pretty irrelevant anyways. Like, great, you have major aegis as a DPS. Still not going to prevent you taking that one shot to the face and killing you.

blktauna

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

Vet dungeon puggers are there to get in and get out, not enjoy the activity. I don't agree with that at all but it is a separate issue from what build they are running. These are the same people in normal randoms who just pull a runner and are off killing everything so they get their crystals in under 10 mins. You are not their teammate, you are an inconvenience they must tolerate to get the random dungeon reward in the shortest time.

Nefas group shows HA is a perfectly viable way of approaching content. you still have to know the mechanics, you still have to put in the time to learn coordination and make sure buffs are covered etc. Note the difference between them as an organised group and some pugger who wants the dungeon over asap. Very disparate players who happen to use a similar build.

I'm not sure how that relates to what I posted however my experiences in vet dungeons are typically that people are competent, cordial, and team oriented. I typically see the "get in and out" while rushing ahead mentality in normal dungeons instead of veteran dungeons.

It was a sidetrack and as I answered another poster, Perhaps I had bad vet random luck. I only do them with friends now and they are much more fun that way.

Auldwulfe

Schared wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Eh, if the people crying about Oakensoul manage to bully the devs into nerfing it, I am sure something else will then surface ......
At some point, most people get to where if you plan on telling us how to play, then I hope you plan on paying the subscription costs .... there are many other games.....

If the casual players who DON'T think a game should be a second job, feel like they are being bullied, they will leave.... and their wallets go with them.

Auldwulfe

As the game is clearly on a downwards trend only retaining people due to the covid boost all games received I would suggest that the way you may enjoy playing is not as universally liked. Iam not entitled enough as to believe that I have all the solutions nor even could do a better job - but I wish to adress this very particular problem.

Iam not bullying anyone as nobody on the internet yields real power over another - I find the acusation itself hilarious but would much rather have you actualy give opinions on your own rather than blanket-critiquing mine.

MMO's have always been time consuming but calling ESO a second job is laughable. The requirements for most content are relatively easy - most boil down to just have a friend explain them to you once or twice.

I understand that people like to punch up as the "endgamers" are a grand evil or something akin to it. Let me assure you here I have not taken part in any endgame activities since 2020. Just keep in mind that despite your perhaps dislike of that community they are one of the people that produce the most content surrounding the game, spend the most time online, interact the most with people either through explanation, addon or videos and are therefore a community just as valueable as the ones that enjoy more casual content - Id argue even more so.

Iam really not sure what many of the responses yearn for. At first I understood it as a need for an additional difficulty as the jump from normal to vet can be quite harsh - but the more I read into some of the responses the more I believe people would like literally anything to work. Doing the most difficult content with bucket and broom and solo...? I dont think having everything immidiatly and aviable no matter what is the way.

After showing some good reasons, all of which have been discounted -- and even being reasonable, in that I do agree that the minor aegis could go, as well as fixing the cleave issue with lightning..... I have seen the same --- NO NO NO it must be taken away --- I don't like it..... and so on.

When SHOWN that in the end, you can get the same results with many other combinations, the same argument is going on and on...... because that evidence will NOT be seen, as it contradicts already held belief.....

I have a DK I set up as a fire mage .....and with my wall skill from my staff, a set of serpent's disdain, and occult overload, I soloed Spindleclutch at level 11...... USING, 3 buttons. Since every other staff attack is a heavy attack, I do NOT run out of resources.... at all. I can stand 28 meters away, and do damage, and am only going to get MORE tanky as I level that character up, due to the DK passives.

Instead of running Oakensoul..... which I CAN'T due to level.... I am getting MOST of the same stuff from armor and procs, with CP. AND it's a one bar, 3 button combo.

I KNOW another person making an ADDON that will make your second bar come up as keys 6 through 0 --- with the choice of either using your primary weapon or a secondary one as the core for that line .... and speaking on ADDONS, maybe the ADDONS and things that tell you WHEN to Block, Dodge, etc.... should also be nerfed or taken away as they do take away the work of learning the mechanics and combat and turn it into "it mashes the key when the color word flashes"


There are always ways to get around a mechanic --- all you have to do to negate the overload in Sunspire, with Relequin, is NOT have a second weapon slotted..... if that slot is empty, you cannot get overload ...... It works for Werewolves, Oakensoul users, and we tested it with standard 2 bar builds --- took off the second weapon, and went in, and all you get is a small damage hit that all of our characters could heal through.

My point of view is simple, is that it DOESN'T matter if people use Oakensoul.... one bar, two bar, etc.... there will ALWAYS be a way to build that is different from another person's and those people will lose it, over that build, because it's not their build, and throw tantrums ... they'll scream NERF, NERF..... and we'll see the number of DK's in endgame climb over 65%, which is where I saw one chart putting it......
I use Oakensoul on one build, because it allows me to use my first character, and hold my own in VET trials with my guild .... simple.
I am a team player.....
Oakensoul does NOT automatically make you a crap player towards your fellow players... if the person is doing it, they were a crap player, already.....and this is just their current excuse... hence if taken away, another method will be found. Eventually, enough will be taken that players will get apathetic and walk away ..... which means that unless some people are independently wealthy enough to pay for the servers themselves, they will lose the game in their screaming.

U35 is one culprit on this.... DK's being already meta, and then given ANOTHER buff, is another problem.
I already know one guy who has a build all lined up to go... the new chains, with berzerk, some other stuff, and a set that does a stun when you do a charge style attack... and duel wield, which will trigger Ruffian, etc.

I watched him take down one of those PVP tanks in about 2 seconds, on the PTS .... a player KNOWN for charging groups of 8 people and not being able to be killed.. And since he is doing it with VERY easy to get sets and items..... I suspect the "NERFIT" crowd is already drooling in anticipation of their new crusade.

In one of my guilds, we discussed Oakensoul ... and then we tested it with non-crap people .... and what we found was that our healers appreciated the Oakensoul people.... as they could then do more overwatch, and work on keeping everyone up...... that extra bit of survival helped the team. Our tanks appreciated it, as they could rely on their DPS staying up, and therefore better concentrate on their own survival, and controlling the enemies..... all it did was make some of our members with disability, etc, able to do the job, join in, and be a bit more than just overland members, and actually made it possible for us to run 3 trials in a row.... those that had to bow out due to real life, were able to be replaced by people that could pull their weight in the fight.

Is it a bandaid... maybe a bit, but the real issue seems to be that lightning staves and certain armor sets are overly synergistic, as I can take my sorcerer out, and do the exact same thing with or without Oakensoul, in the exact same time.
And that is by using the exact same keys, etc. All I did was take the ring off, and redo the exact same arena, and the time and results were almost identical ... I took 6 seconds longer WITH Oakensoul on......

The real question is, would nerfing Oakensoul change the primary complaints here ... and the answer is NO --- it only contributes a small amount.... because you CAN get around not having empower ... there are enough CP's and sets that cause status effects and procs, that you can use WITH Sergeant's Mail and stack --- I am actually using Sergeant's Mail, a lightning staff, and Order's Wrath, with the Thief Mundus, all divines ......and almost ALL light armor .... with or without Oakensoul, I am getting so much burn damage and crit, that nothing gets close enough to do anything, anyways, and there are potions to make up the difference, which is why that character is a master alchemist.... Hell, give me Ring of the Pale Order, and I will never have to worry about healing..... unless I am in a large group. And then, I just take it off for something else. I get so much crit bonus, and stacked critical, that the empower from Oakensoul is a VERY tiny difference, that only shows part of the way down .... my pets with Daedric Prey are much more dangerous.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

On a side note - Harpooner's Wading Kit makes Oakensoul a joke ..... my crit got so high that I was hitting every single pulse as a crit ..... 4 crits on EVERY heavy attack, Backbar was empty, but I could probably just put that staff there, too if I wanted to bother with anything alternate....... but use my current 3 key pets, only one of which I push, throw Mages guild empower, and fighter's guild cammo ... so only 2 keys to push and hold the button and every bit equal to using Oakensoul

Auldwulfe

Stx

Oakensoul having defensive buffs isn’t an issue. Again the point of this mythic is to give you passive buffs that make up for you losing 5 skills that often would be used to bolster defense as well as damage.

Let’s see what Oakensoul gives you as far as defensives.

-minor protection. Very common buff, a number of classes provide this for themselves, and those that don’t can also get it easily from several class aoe abilities.
-minor mending. Small healing increase which does a little to make up for losing flex spots to slot a heal skill. This really has no effect at all for Oakensoul dps builds.
-major resolve. This is provided to the entire group by wardens.
-minor aegis. This is literally the only buff that Oakensoul users have that your typical two bar build won’t have. A whopping 5% damage mitigation which in reality is much smaller due to how damage reduction is all added up.

I’ve seen a number of people keep saying this, that Oakensoul users have 2-3 times the tankiness of a normal dps, I think someone even said 5x lol. And others have claimed Oakensoul users can block big hits that other dps can’t…. Please someone show me this magical block mitigation Oakensoul users are getting? Literally minor aegis is the only thing different between these types of builds.

Now if it’s a heavy attack build, you don’t need sustain food like lava foot so you can gain potentially 3-6k more health. But now we’re not just talking about Oakensoul builds, but specifically heavy attack Oakensoul builds. And I stand by my argument. 3-6k health and minor aegis isn’t going to save you from a massive hit or allow you to block things other builds can’t block.

Stx

Honestly, before any direct nerf to Oakensoul or heavy attacks should be considered, they need to look at sustain across the board in pve. Between cp2.0 and hybridization, sustaining is a lot easier than it used to be which devalues a number of item sets, racials, and skills. Also if heavy attack builds are meant to deal viable damage, maybe sustain should matter more for them. Item sets like noble duelist are also in a weird place, and so is the empower buff.

Soarora

Stx wrote: »

Oakensoul having defensive buffs isn’t an issue. Again the point of this mythic is to give you passive buffs that make up for you losing 5 skills that often would be used to bolster defense as well as damage.

Let’s see what Oakensoul gives you as far as defensives.

-minor protection. Very common buff, a number of classes provide this for themselves, and those that don’t can also get it easily from several class aoe abilities.
-minor mending. Small healing increase which does a little to make up for losing flex spots to slot a heal skill. This really has no effect at all for Oakensoul dps builds.
-major resolve. This is provided to the entire group by wardens.
-minor aegis. This is literally the only buff that Oakensoul users have that your typical two bar build won’t have. A whopping 5% damage mitigation which in reality is much smaller due to how damage reduction is all added up.

I’ve seen a number of people keep saying this, that Oakensoul users have 2-3 times the tankiness of a normal dps, I think someone even said 5x lol. And others have claimed Oakensoul users can block big hits that other dps can’t…. Please someone show me this magical block mitigation Oakensoul users are getting? Literally minor aegis is the only thing different between these types of builds.

Now if it’s a heavy attack build, you don’t need sustain food like lava foot so you can gain potentially 3-6k more health. But now we’re not just talking about Oakensoul builds, but specifically heavy attack Oakensoul builds. And I stand by my argument. 3-6k health and minor aegis isn’t going to save you from a massive hit or allow you to block things other builds can’t block.

I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears people not die and comment on not dying to mechanics they would’ve if they were not wearing oakensoul. Minor protection could be the reason over minor aegis but I can’t argue against minor protection because, like you said, it’s a buff that actually makes sense to have on oakensoul. Dropping minor aegis wouldn’t even effect most people. If they’re still doing mechanics (or not even touching dungeons, trials, and arenas) then they will see no difference.

Auldwulfe

Stx wrote: »

Honestly, before any direct nerf to Oakensoul or heavy attacks should be considered, they need to look at sustain across the board in pve. Between cp2.0 and hybridization, sustaining is a lot easier than it used to be which devalues a number of item sets, racials, and skills. Also if heavy attack builds are meant to deal viable damage, maybe sustain should matter more for them. Item sets like noble duelist are also in a weird place, and so is the empower buff.

This I can go with --- it's not just one item that is, honestly, helping more people enjoy the game, and see parts they never would, due to physical limitations, etc.

I'm even of a mind to alter some of the powers, such as minor aegis, and a few others...... but the fact remains that heavy attacks are a viable playstyle ... and should be equal in utility to light attacks....
It, honestly, should either be, you can choose a playstyle, and it is what it is.... or they should do away with weaving all together, as getting in an extra attack while everything else is constrained by a global cooldown does seem just as off.


And now, with U37, they are adjusting the scaling of light attacks in a way that a majority of players will see an increase.... wonder how that's going to change the dynamic with heavy attacks, or even have some people change over, now that damage is coming back to light?
That would lend weight to the argument that most of the heavy attack builds are in response to U35, as opposed to just one item.

Auldwulfe

Stx

Soarora wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Oakensoul having defensive buffs isn’t an issue. Again the point of this mythic is to give you passive buffs that make up for you losing 5 skills that often would be used to bolster defense as well as damage.

Let’s see what Oakensoul gives you as far as defensives.

-minor protection. Very common buff, a number of classes provide this for themselves, and those that don’t can also get it easily from several class aoe abilities.
-minor mending. Small healing increase which does a little to make up for losing flex spots to slot a heal skill. This really has no effect at all for Oakensoul dps builds.
-major resolve. This is provided to the entire group by wardens.
-minor aegis. This is literally the only buff that Oakensoul users have that your typical two bar build won’t have. A whopping 5% damage mitigation which in reality is much smaller due to how damage reduction is all added up.

I’ve seen a number of people keep saying this, that Oakensoul users have 2-3 times the tankiness of a normal dps, I think someone even said 5x lol. And others have claimed Oakensoul users can block big hits that other dps can’t…. Please someone show me this magical block mitigation Oakensoul users are getting? Literally minor aegis is the only thing different between these types of builds.

Now if it’s a heavy attack build, you don’t need sustain food like lava foot so you can gain potentially 3-6k more health. But now we’re not just talking about Oakensoul builds, but specifically heavy attack Oakensoul builds. And I stand by my argument. 3-6k health and minor aegis isn’t going to save you from a massive hit or allow you to block things other builds can’t block.

I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears people not die and comment on not dying to mechanics they would’ve if they were not wearing oakensoul. Minor protection could be the reason over minor aegis but I can’t argue against minor protection because, like you said, it’s a buff that actually makes sense to have on oakensoul. Dropping minor aegis wouldn’t even effect most people. If they’re still doing mechanics (or not even touching dungeons, trials, and arenas) then they will see no difference.

Sorry, but I’m more so interested in figuring out what actually is the difference that is allowing players to ‘not die’ with an Oakensoul build. As I’ve listed the buffs Oakensoul gives, minor aegis is the only one that two bar builds don’t commonly have access to. Also a 3-6k health increase for heavy builds (although the 100k parses all use single stat no health food).

So again, let’s actually get to the bottom of these claims. What is it that is allowing these players to not die. It can’t be an extra 5% mitigation right?

Is it a combination of being able to attack from range, while not needing to rely on your group to maintain defensive buffs on you?

Again, Oakensoul doesn’t grant you any additional block mitigation, or resistances. What would allow you to just slap on Oakensoul and do 100k dps as a tank? These claims are unhinged lol.