Heavy Attack Builds

blktauna

Billium813 wrote: »

Figured I's just post this here for anyone that can objectively read data
It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

You say this like its a bad thing. This is a build that opens the door to others. Its a stepping stone to success in higher levels and I'm all for it.

Billium813

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

And this is pretty much how it should be in a game that's more geared towards casual play and a social experience. It's also amazing for anyone that is disabled, just wants to hang with friends and still be useful, etc.

I haven't pugged in a good while but if I did I'd take a group of HA oaken builds where I could just relax over a more draining DPM scenario where by the end I'm tired and don't even feel like playing the game anymore.

Why do you get to assert that the game is only for "casual play" or what content is/isn't "casual"?

blktauna wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Figured I's just post this here for anyone that can objectively read data
It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

You say this like its a bad thing. This is a build that opens the door to others. Its a stepping stone to success in higher levels and I'm all for it.

I have no issues with with damage, if all builds could attain it. It's one build, that is class agnostic; HA lightning staff. No other builds come close. Everyone keeps harping on and on about high levels. THAT ISN'T WHERE THE ISSUE IS! This build is trivializing the mid levels; which no one seems to care about. But some people enjoy PUG dungeons and it's getting old really fast when every single DPS is the same Lightning staff build. There's no diversity anymore, even across classes. It's all variants of the same exact thing. And it won't go away when it completely trumps ALL alternatives in the same skill range.

blktauna

Billium813 wrote: »

Why do you get to assert that the game is only for "casual play" or what content is/isn't "casual"?

And why do you get to say its not?
ZOS has made it pretty clear in its design choices and in the ... odd... combat systems they've been implementing that this is very much rolling right into casual land.

blktauna wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing. This is a build that opens the door to others. Its a stepping stone to success in higher levels and I'm all for it.

I have no issues with with damage, if all builds could attain it. It's one build, that is class agnostic; HA lightning staff. No other builds come close. Everyone keeps harping on and on about high levels. THAT ISN'T WHERE THE ISSUE IS! This build is trivializing the mid levels; which no one seems to care about. But some people enjoy PUG dungeons and it's getting old really fast when every single DPS is the same Lightning staff build. There's no diversity anymore, even across classes. It's all variants of the same exact thing. And it won't go away when it completely trumps ALL alternatives in the same skill range.[/quote]

Have you met any flame staff DKs? Resto HA DKs? Any DW DKs? Any DW wardens? Any 2H DKs, Sorcs, NBs? I'm thinking not.
I am a wholly mid lever player and I see a huge assortment of playstyles. When I pug normals I am generally the only lightening staff user on whatever lowbie I'm levelling. Other than that, I don't use one bars for dungeons, I use it in PVP and in overland. I have only very rarely run into anyone but me on my lazy templar oakensouling it and I only use him on certain trials or if my hands are feeling a bit tired.

Plainly you don't do BGs because that's the land of no diversity, just swarms of DK leaping the crap out of everyone. Which is why I just avoid them.

Frankly I don't understand your comment about trivialising mid levels either. I'm utterly midlevel and I find the HA builds to be helpful tools. But thats all they are, a tool. It got me over the hump in learning how to mag sorc better. I had enough sustain to get used to the new skills and figure out how I wanted to set things up. Oakensoul enlightened me as to how useful buffs are and which ones work best with my playstyle. I can then change up to a better build. But that's me. Others may simply like the ease of use that lets them enjoy their chosen activities. There is zero wrong with doing that. I have classes I've never used a one bar on, so I don't see that it beats everything else in my skill range.

Some people just want to blow through that daily random and get their crystals the most efficient way possible. That, however, is a whole nother conversation.

Billium813

I feel bad for my boi Bow when lightning staff is so obviously best in slot, even at range single target

blktauna

Here's a question for you. Can you do the content you want to do, using the tools you enjoy?

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Funny thing is that it is becoming very obvious that the majority of people that are against the one bar build have never tried it, and don't understand why it even exists.

Auldwulfe

I would give you that most that don't care for one bar build probably never felt the need to use them and are mostly going off of what they see other players doing. I don't think they really care why they exist but I feel like it's also not only because of the reason you stated. To most people who see them I'm guessing they understand them to exist as an easy way to play the game regardless of why that player may need or want it to be easy dps.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

It started with the Sorcerer... because it was necessary. Right now, my ONLY one bar build is that, because outside of that option, my sorcerer lives in the craft hall, and only exists because I completed all my researches on him, first, and he got all my motifs I farmed.......

Sorcerers are forced to be zoo keepers to have the same healing and DPS as other classes ... yes, I know, someone will tell me there are Stamina builds, and YES, you are absolutely right, I CAN take fighter guild, Undaunted, and other skill lines and build a Stamina Sorcerer, using Vigor to heal..... and..... the fact that it is a sorcerer is cosmetic.
My one bar has to have both pets, as they do a huge chunk of my DPS .....along with Dedric Prey ... there is 3 of my 5 slots, gone to one skill line, just to make that work --- they say you can use Hurricane, but there are higher DPS options from other lines..... and I chose to use Wall from the Staff line, instead of Barbed Trap, because Sorcerers use lightning..... even if it DOES cost me DPS ......

Sorcerers were forced into this .... and if you look at the other 1 bar builds.... most of them strongly resemble the description of a sorcerer, when done..... because that is where the current combat meta of the game made it necessary.

Auldwulfe

I can say after seeing it with my own eyes that sorc was not forced to play this style. I've seen mag sorcs that weren't one bar that did considerably good dps. It mostly just seemed to depend on skill level. I'm not saying there aren't any concessions that have to be made but saying anyone was forced into this is a stretch I think.

HA playstyle came from a few different reasons like being a good fit for those with high ping who wanted to do content where bar swapping just got them killed. It's also good for just doing relaxed dps and DK was a good choice as well for a HA build do to having easy access to empower before oaken .

Also I realize this may be out of context but when you say started with I'm not sure if you mean from the beginning like way back when or just now with HA builds on oakensoul. I'm referring to when HA builds started showing up for me years back and it certainly wasn't because mag sorc just couldn't be played any other way.

If you speak of it currently I'd still say mag sorc can be played other ways that would still do similar dps to an HA build just with more work of course.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

You want to fix one bar builds? Then go for the root cause.... bad balance in the classes ....

That's the true issue.... not whether someone might have figured out an easier way to do something that rubs someone the wrong way. If Dragon Knights and Night Blades weren't leading the DPS charge to every higher heights, and forcing everyone else to scramble to keep up, there wouldn't be a need for building a one bar high DPS focus......


If the classes were more equal, there would be less feeling of being forced into this specific build, just to compete.

Auldwulfe

Sorry I combined a few particular quotes here rather than quote them separately. Class balance is needed but I'm pretty sure more people play 1 bar because it's just easier. Not saying there aren't people that do it because of class balance but if you put up a poll I'm sure you'd have people that play it because it's easy and for a few other different reasons but mostly because it's easy.

It's a great way for casuals looking to chill, people with disabilities, and probably a few other reasons but I don't think it's that much about competition with other classes by default.

I think you'd find many classes being used for one bar builds and we can sort of see that just by searching YT. Yes sorc comes up because it's easy but dk and others are in there too so I would say it's not just about sorc having a place but people wanting to also just do easy dps on a character they may not have otherwise used or that they just wanted to try in a different way, etc

If classes were more equal I can agree you'd see more people playing their favorite class for doing dps. So in a way yes fixing balance would cause the effect you speak of to some degree. I just don't think the message about people being forced into something to compete is a true one in relation to oakensoul.

It's the most recent surge, at least that's how it came across with me - after the nerfs from last year, it became VERY difficult to play a magsorc if you didn't have the exact right gear already farmed out -- didn't have it, then you just couldn't get past certain thresholds...

And even now, it seems that the biggest issue is the lightning staff with Sergeant's Mail.... as more the culprit, than even Oakensoul, because I can slot the cammo skill from the fighter's line, and any set with Brutality..... plus empower from the mages guild, along with that Sergeant's mail, and get very similar damage levels, and still only use a couple of buttons and the heavy attack ...... just tapping the empower every 10 seconds and Daedric Prey every 6, have my pets on the bar, and those gear sets...... and I am just about the same as I get with Oakensoul ..... and I can stay at 28 meters, which seems to be the complaint.... staying away and dealing good damage.
I can even avoid a ton of mechanics by just moving in a circle around the target with swift on the jewelry...... and knowing to dodge roll every so often.... add in any decent monster set, and you are in the same ball park for ability.

In the end, if you get your pen and crit high enough... and have the crit boost and brutality (there are monster sets that do it too), with Sergeant's Mail.... you are in the ballpark with it.... it isn't impossible, and there are ways to do it without the fighter skill, IF you get the right gear .......

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

blktauna wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Why do you get to assert that the game is only for "casual play" or what content is/isn't "casual"?

And why do you get to say its not?
ZOS has made it pretty clear in its design choices and in the ... odd... combat systems they've been implementing that this is very much rolling right into casual land.

blktauna wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing. This is a build that opens the door to others. Its a stepping stone to success in higher levels and I'm all for it.

I have no issues with with damage, if all builds could attain it. It's one build, that is class agnostic; HA lightning staff. No other builds come close. Everyone keeps harping on and on about high levels. THAT ISN'T WHERE THE ISSUE IS! This build is trivializing the mid levels; which no one seems to care about. But some people enjoy PUG dungeons and it's getting old really fast when every single DPS is the same Lightning staff build. There's no diversity anymore, even across classes. It's all variants of the same exact thing. And it won't go away when it completely trumps ALL alternatives in the same skill range.

Have you met any flame staff DKs? Resto HA DKs? Any DW DKs? Any DW wardens? Any 2H DKs, Sorcs, NBs? I'm thinking not.
I am a wholly mid lever player and I see a huge assortment of playstyles. When I pug normals I am generally the only lightening staff user on whatever lowbie I'm levelling. Other than that, I don't use one bars for dungeons, I use it in PVP and in overland. I have only very rarely run into anyone but me on my lazy templar oakensouling it and I only use him on certain trials or if my hands are feeling a bit tired.

Plainly you don't do BGs because that's the land of no diversity, just swarms of DK leaping the crap out of everyone. Which is why I just avoid them.

Frankly I don't understand your comment about trivialising mid levels either. I'm utterly midlevel and I find the HA builds to be helpful tools. But thats all they are, a tool. It got me over the hump in learning how to mag sorc better. I had enough sustain to get used to the new skills and figure out how I wanted to set things up. Oakensoul enlightened me as to how useful buffs are and which ones work best with my playstyle. I can then change up to a better build. But that's me. Others may simply like the ease of use that lets them enjoy their chosen activities. There is zero wrong with doing that. I have classes I've never used a one bar on, so I don't see that it beats everything else in my skill range.

Some people just want to blow through that daily random and get their crystals the most efficient way possible. That, however, is a whole nother conversation.[/quote]

Off topic a bit, but I had to laugh hard... I HAVE a flame staff DK that is a fire mage, and a frost staff Warden that is my ice mage --- I DID have a dual wield Nord Warden for a long time..... with him, I more got tired of the "Drunken Nord" jokes..... All of them broke 50K and I could do, pretty much, all the same content ..... I even had a templar built around a sword and dagger combo, and he broke 75K on a regular basis, even when I forgot he had a bow on his backbar... or even his backbar skills.....

As others have said, the 1 bar builds existed for a long time, but only became contentious now... so let's look at what did change --- the big thing is U35..... and then the nerfs since.
And since, DK's have dominated ... BIG TIME... people have posted the stats showing this.....
The Devs even said that Sorcs are just fine, because they have Silence..... Meanwhile, they just added Major Berserk to a skill on Dragon Knights, because "it wasn't used enough".....

As for getting trasmutes quickly.... the easiest way is to build cheap tanks .... build a character, put sword and board on it with the first skill, which is a taunt, and as soon as level 10, start pugging. You WILL get in the dungeon in less than 3 minutes..... guaranteed, as tanks are picked up quick ... and you will get Spindleclutch 1, then Fungal Grotto 1, and so on .... and when you get to 25 to 30, rinse and repeat.
You do NOT have to bother with horse speed, although I do make the 15 minute run to Cyrodiil.... it's an easy 12K in alliance points, and I get pieces of PVP sets .... which WILL include the new ones as soon as they hit (Tuesday, I think).....

I spend nothing on them, other than my crafter making them a suit of armor at level 10, and again at 20..... and if I like them enough, 30.

I can get 3 to 4 dungeons in an hour of playing... gets me my transmutes, and I can then focus on my characters that matter.
I have enough transmutes to build anything I want... and if I need higher pieces, I just let one of my guilds know I am farming this or that.... and I usually get more offers to join than I can sort........

Spindleclutch 1 normal gives the same 10 transmutes as Falkreath on VET, and I can do it in my sleep.
Every 3 days, I earn enough to build another set, if I want to do so. If you want efficient, that is FAR more efficient than Oakensoul, as you need to be CP 160, just to put it on, and you will, probably, get harder dungeons......

On a further side note.... Healers are even easier to use, although it can take 4 to 5 minutes to get in a dungeon...... so is not as efficient, but you can snore through it that way, too.

Auldwulfe

P.S. Wish the autospelling thing would stop turning AN into AND ....

tincanman

Bushido2513 wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

I think it's coming from some (but not all) mid-tier players who, having struggled to attain competence but are not yet at the limits of what's possible, have found similar results with an 'easier' HA setup. It would seem that in an effort to make their efforts more meaningful, some mid-tier players want to destroy the transient, subjective parity they experience between their useage of 2-bar builds and HA builds and the most expedient way to do this for them seems to be to call for nerfs of the HA builds or to make LA-weaving more powerful.

It's really kind of bad game design that's making players feel this way. They wouldn't want to really mess with HA players if they had some content to chew on that allows them to go be skilled elite ninja killers.

But this is much the PG13 vs R rating situation I think in respect to where ZOS is taking it. More easy content makes for more new players and even some player retention. More and more this is a game that's on story mode vs give me a challenge mode and maybe people just have to accept the change but that's not to say that their feelings over the issues don't have legitimate standing.

I don't think it's bad game design - it enables far too many players for it to be. The way players feel is up to them and not everyone will be happy with some changes made in aspects of the game over time.

I would agree with the point about newer players and retention and the ratings comparison would seem to be a good analogy.

Bushido2513

tincanman wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

tincanman wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

I think it's coming from some (but not all) mid-tier players who, having struggled to attain competence but are not yet at the limits of what's possible, have found similar results with an 'easier' HA setup. It would seem that in an effort to make their efforts more meaningful, some mid-tier players want to destroy the transient, subjective parity they experience between their useage of 2-bar builds and HA builds and the most expedient way to do this for them seems to be to call for nerfs of the HA builds or to make LA-weaving more powerful.

It's really kind of bad game design that's making players feel this way. They wouldn't want to really mess with HA players if they had some content to chew on that allows them to go be skilled elite ninja killers.

But this is much the PG13 vs R rating situation I think in respect to where ZOS is taking it. More easy content makes for more new players and even some player retention. More and more this is a game that's on story mode vs give me a challenge mode and maybe people just have to accept the change but that's not to say that their feelings over the issues don't have legitimate standing.

I don't think it's bad game design - it enables far too many players for it to be. The way players feel is up to them and not everyone will be happy with some changes made in aspects of the game over time.

I would agree with the point about newer players and retention and the ratings comparison would seem to be a good analogy.

You're correct it's not actually bad game design, more just game design that caters to the target audience which is technically good game design going by what seems to be a high adoption rate.


Just more so says that if nothing gets changed then maybe some people will just have to understand they aren't the target audience anymore. Same reason why I don't get as many rated R comic book movies and DC is rebooting characters to be younger for a different target audience. Don't hate the player hate the game as they say

Stx

Billium813 wrote: »

Figured I's just post this here for anyone that can objectively read data

These are three combat caps from a 1 bar Necro HA build. One with Oakensoul and the other just swapping Oakensoul for a mid-tier Mythic like Death Dealer's Fete, then the third dropping all CP passives and slottables (Wrathful Strikes, Deadly Aim, Backstabber, Weapons Expert). For all three caps, I held down RMB the entire time and pressed a skill every 2 seconds (I counted). I had absolutely no idea what I was doing, so I'm sure I had a sloppy rotation and wasn't properly weaving HAs

1bar HA + Oakensoul

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete

1bar HA + Death Dealer's Fete + No CP

1. look at those Resource drains. ~250 Magicka drain per second... with 85k DPS... That demonstrates just how little the build is doing in actions and yet can still reach 85K DPS.
2. Oakensoul literally doubles the damage your HA does. From 15k DPS -> 30k DPS
3. even without Oakensoul, a 1 bar HA build that drains ~240 Magicka per second, activates 1 skill every 2 seconds, and deals 100% damage in AOE, from range, gets to 54k DPS
4. No CP, no Empower (the HA specific buff) and we are still at 45k DPS
5. Skills don't cancel the HA channel; instead queuing the skill. This is subtle, but is highly accessible. Not necessarily an issue, but comparing that to LA weaving, you can really see the appeal.

It's no wonder players love this build. Imaging you're 200CP player, with a 10-20k DPS build that spams 7-8 skills, drains > 1.5k resources per second, and requires a complex rotation/weaving/positioning. Now, you can put on Base Game Dungeon gear and hold RMB to jump all the way up to > 60k DPS.

What build does 10-20k? You need a proper build to hit high dps on a Light attack build…. Just like you need a proper build to hit high numbers on a heavy attack build. You can get over 50k dps just spamming light attacks and a spammable. You can get over 100k dps without even using light attacks, just skills. If someone is doing 20k or less dps that’s not because of any specific thing, there is a lot going wrong there.

bachpain

I think people are just mad that business isn't as good selling carries for gold now that more people can do the content for themselves.

The truth of the matter is you have to learn and do the content regardless of the build you are using. It is just a different play style. Some can do the HA builds and easier focus on their surroundings and mechanics. I think it is a great thing. The end game community needs more people not less that can bring success to the table.

I always find the hatred of HA builds super funny when those "more difficult" builds are built on multiple proc sets that are doing DPS for you anyway. Again, it is just a different way to play. If you are a no proc, no monster/mythic set purist then maybe you have a leg to stand on. Otherwise it is simply a preference of playstyle.

Do you want to LA weave and keep up dots and a spammable, and let your proc sets augment your DPS or do you want to HA and weave in abilities to magnify damage or add dots/status effects and let the HA carry most of your DPS?

Sergykid

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

from what i saw in some dlc tris and hm farms, with equally skilled players the proper two bar build deals more damage by around 20% on bosses (f.e. 50k vs 60k). The only advantages oakens have is easier survivability and less stress. But this comes at cost of dps, so it should be alright.
on lower skill level, oaken seem to do more, but that's just cuz it's easier, not better.

if any nerf were to come on oaken it should be a small one to survivability. Maybe a nerf to tri focus cleave but that's not oakens and shock staves already struggle outside of oaken

But even if it was the exact same dps would it even matter? Like as an example it's ok to ask someone if they have trials gear or whatever flavor of the month because you want them to at least do a certain amount of damage but it's not ok for them to just do decent damage but not have to work as hard and therefore enjoy the game a bit more?

Also I'm not saying you but people act as if they need to feel validated by the uniform suffering of others lol. Like man why are you not working as hard as me over here even though we will still clear the content and enjoy the rewards.

The craziest part of this is that we're talking about a game in a situation that should be fun co op

you rightfully defend the victim but the aggressor is the victim too.
why the veteran guy that spent hours on getting gear and practicing his build is treated the same as someone that puts less effort?

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

We get same reward at the end of the dungeon and we both leave happily with the completion, but u should have less dps if u put less effort.

blktauna

Sergykid wrote: »

why the veteran guy that spent hours on getting gear and practicing his build is treated the same as someone that puts less effort?

Please define less effort.
Everyone here is grinding gear and dungeons for leads for gear.
Are you suggesting that if you don't dummy hump to a metronome or min max to your satisfaction you shouldn't have deeps? How do you know what effort they have or have not put in?

Sergykid wrote: »

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

Please define easier and 'community balance'

Sergykid wrote: »

We get same reward at the end of the dungeon and we both leave happily with the completion, but u should have less dps if u put less effort.

Why?

How does someone else's dps affect you so personally that you feel you are entitled to judge them on their perceived effort?
As you say, we get the same reward for the same level of content.

Sergykid

blktauna wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

why the veteran guy that spent hours on getting gear and practicing his build is treated the same as someone that puts less effort?

Please define less effort.
Everyone here is grinding gear and dungeons for leads for gear.
Are you suggesting that if you don't dummy hump to a metronome or min max to your satisfaction you shouldn't have deeps? How do you know what effort they have or have not put in?

by less effort i mean this, i spend time looking at and managing buff timers, l.a. weaving, keeping any duration on its timer and fill in the spammable, and if i drop rotation for a mechanic i must see where i am left at and resume, cast a self defense if needed, vs two buttons now and then
it's not about dummy, a boss is more stressful to deal with on two bars and buffing rather than someone that his only care are two spells between holding click

blktauna wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

Please define easier and 'community balance'

by easier i mean as above, less player imput for almost the same result, less effort in pressing less buttons and caring about fewer things. By community balance i mean fair ground for everyone, if we're all rewarded equally in proportion to our effort then it's balanced. My effort may be bad even if it's more, like tryharding with a bad build. But if i put effort with a good build, and u don't put effort with ur good build, and we get same dps, i feel cheated by the game, that i "worked" in vain (and by 'i' I don't mean me personally but the player in context)

blktauna wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

We get same reward at the end of the dungeon and we both leave happily with the completion, but u should have less dps if u put less effort.

Why?

How does someone else's dps affect you so personally that you feel you are entitled to judge them on their perceived effort?
As you say, we get the same reward for the same level of content.

his dps and effort are not my concern, affects me in no way. But i (the player, not me) will feel discouraged to put effort since there's a 'less effort' way to get same results

Yazrz

Sergykid wrote: »

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

You state this as an absolute truth, but I think this statement can be questioned.

Why can there not be different builds with different levels of effort? Some people enjoy a complicated rotation, whereas some prefer using a less complicated rotation. There will of course always be a difference between someone that executes timers perfectly to someone that is off by 20%. But there is no inherent rule that says that a complicated rotation should result in more DPS.

Cameron991

As a person is mainly plays pvp and is kinda trash at pve I have really been having a blast with the HA build. I was able to vet solo arenas but I never got my rotation down to the level that made me able to do vet trail content so I have been missing out of vet trials that I have been wanting to do but it was very difficult for me to do. I have been playing since launch and I have been wanting those skins that are locked behind vet trials but I didn’t have the confidence in being accepted into groups with my dps and I worked very hard to better myself and grind gear but light attack weaving was very difficult with a perfect rotation. The point is my HA build allows me to do the content I missed out on all these years that I have been wanting to do, and I finally feel confident do go for achievements that I didn’t feel confident doing in the past. And I’ll tell you what I am having a BLAST! It has revived the game to me, it has given me more to strive for and keep me in. I get it’s easier and takes less work but if you feel that way then don’t play that way, you can still work your hardest and light attack weave and you will still probably get higher dps then my build so you still are getting more results with the hard work you are putting in so it’s not a waste of your time. If it was a pvp build that was unstoppable that understandable bc it is against other players but this is pve so it’s not affecting anyone but the player using it. Also zos said he so is about playing how you want so why should this be any different?

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

Why do you get to assert that the game is only for "casual play" or what content is/isn't "casual"?

It's more an observation and I've played the game over years and watched ZOS make it easier and easier to casually get into the game. Ways to earn cp faster, more things that hold the players hand, pale order, oakensoul, etc. It's clear that they want people of any skill group to get into the game as easy as possiblie and have fun.

It's like vegas when they serve you drinks for free. They don't want you thinking hard about the money you're spending. They want you having more fun so you're not thinking too hard about the details.

Billium813 wrote: »

I have no issues with with damage, if all builds could attain it. It's one build, that is class agnostic; HA lightning staff. No other builds come close. Everyone keeps harping on and on about high levels. THAT ISN'T WHERE THE ISSUE IS! This build is trivializing the mid levels; which no one seems to care about. But some people enjoy PUG dungeons and it's getting old really fast when every single DPS is the same Lightning staff build. There's no diversity anymore, even across classes. It's all variants of the same exact thing. And it won't go away when it completely trumps ALL alternatives in the same skill range.

Well it's not that nobody cares maybe it's that more people who are the target audience care? What I'm saying is that if you see everyone running it or at least more people running it than not then that means ZOS is hitting the target audience with the item that they released/sold. I'm all for you making your opinion known but what you're also saying is the majority are speaking and saying they are happy with Oakensoul.

Bushido2513

Auldwulfe wrote: »

It's the most recent surge, at least that's how it came across with me - after the nerfs from last year, it became VERY difficult to play a magsorc if you didn't have the exact right gear already farmed out -- didn't have it, then you just couldn't get past certain thresholds...

And even now, it seems that the biggest issue is the lightning staff with Sergeant's Mail.... as more the culprit, than even Oakensoul, because I can slot the cammo skill from the fighter's line, and any set with Brutality..... plus empower from the mages guild, along with that Sergeant's mail, and get very similar damage levels, and still only use a couple of buttons and the heavy attack ...... just tapping the empower every 10 seconds and Daedric Prey every 6, have my pets on the bar, and those gear sets...... and I am just about the same as I get with Oakensoul ..... and I can stay at 28 meters, which seems to be the complaint.... staying away and dealing good damage.
I can even avoid a ton of mechanics by just moving in a circle around the target with swift on the jewelry...... and knowing to dodge roll every so often.... add in any decent monster set, and you are in the same ball park for ability.

In the end, if you get your pen and crit high enough... and have the crit boost and brutality (there are monster sets that do it too), with Sergeant's Mail.... you are in the ballpark with it.... it isn't impossible, and there are ways to do it without the fighter skill, IF you get the right gear .......

Auldwulfe

Correct magsorc did sink down in PVE dps and while it wasn't unplayable it was a good candidate for heavy attack builds because people had already done it since back when I was an 810, at least I think that's when I built my first one.

Also I don't own Oakensoul, never purchased the chapter so my heavy attack builds are as you described and they basically work fine though I do more buffing and such. I just use it for farming gear or when a friend needs help but to be clear I've also played magsorc non heavy attack mode and it was ok, nothing special, nothing horrible but not as easy mode as HA which lets me get in more runs with friends and spend more time just chatting then worrying.

Bushido2513

Sergykid wrote: »

you rightfully defend the victim but the aggressor is the victim too.
why the veteran guy that spent hours on getting gear and practicing his build is treated the same as someone that puts less effort?

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

We get same reward at the end of the dungeon and we both leave happily with the completion, but u should have less dps if u put less effort.

Because the game is shifting focus. This happens all the time. It's the same frustration that comes from ZOS changing a set that you previously golded out. The game has been getting easier and easier over the past few years because that's what sells. People are voting with their dollars and saying hey we want to have fun. Every Oakensoul user you see is someone saying I will pay you to make this game easier and those numbers seem to outshine retaining vets.

Also technically they do get less DPS it's just not by a very high number.

But when you speak of community balance, well that's just not where the easy money is for ZOS I think. Not when we talk about the tradeoff of balance for vet players vs casuals.

Also a big point here is that nobody is forcing anyone to play anything in particular. It's the same as it always was. You can put on the best in slot meta (most effective tactic available), or you can put on whatever you want that feels fun for you.

And yes you won't perform the same in some cases if you just wear what feels fun but that was supposed to be the point, you're choosing fun over meta which comes with sacrifice.

But don't look at others with side eye if they want to wear meta I'd say.

Ragnarok0130

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

Ragnarok0130

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

That's not exactly true if part of experience is achievements for a person and having any gauge of their own skill. This is part of the reason they give out title, achievements, etc that are tied to skill level. If you then know that these things don't have the same value then it does take away from your game because this is an interconnected game where we are sometimes aware of other players levels and abilities.

It just waters down your own ability to understand your progression when the higher levels of progression are brought into the mid tier of prorgression.

I support anyone playing how they want to but the game needs to do a better job of showing progression personally and overall so that players can feel value if they want to in that respect.

I'll give a simple example. I really don't care if there's a quest out there where the player hits the I win button and the quest is completed and they are ok with that. But I do want to see a quest that's very hard, very rewarding, and that somehow can't be cheesed. I think that's fair to both who want to have different experiences respective to their desire to improve skill or just be chill.

Except titles are NOT tied to skill level, anymore -- I can make a Level 1 Silencer, or anything else I have earned .... AWA kind of killed that argument.
I'll even go further -- I buy ONE single Carry in a dungeon ... and boom, all my characters have it DONE .... end of story.
I could have, with the expansion of character slots, 20 first level characters with ANY title I have bought.



Auldwulfe

I don't agree, YOU the player still earned the Silencer title even if it was on another toon. It's not like you paid a carry group for a carry for a title that you didn't earn but are still wearing it like some sort of ESO stolen valor case. We had carry groups giving people titles they didn't earn long before AWA so AWA is really a red herring here.

Bushido2513

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

There's a lot of things we just don't know to the story with players. Might be a player that was always just a solo mentality or might also be a player that previously was told their dps was low/bad and who is taking the opportunity to play the game the way they want after being empowered a bit.

My thing is that people just sometimes complain over anything. First it was your dps was too low, then it was that you're dying all the time, now it's hey you're surviving/doing doing good damage but you took the easy street and we don't like that.

There are definite legitimate issues in some of what you said but also sometimes I'll see someone pug and what the other people in the pug to play the way they think they should and that just doesn't make sense especially with a pug.

Pug to me pretty much means this is going to be a group of cowboys, just have fun, go with it and hope it doesn't take years.

blktauna

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

Vet dungeon puggers are there to get in and get out, not enjoy the activity. I don't agree with that at all but it is a separate issue from what build they are running. These are the same people in normal randoms who just pull a runner and are off killing everything so they get their crystals in under 10 mins. You are not their teammate, you are an inconvenience they must tolerate to get the random dungeon reward in the shortest time.

Nefas group shows HA is a perfectly viable way of approaching content. you still have to know the mechanics, you still have to put in the time to learn coordination and make sure buffs are covered etc. Note the difference between them as an organised group and some pugger who wants the dungeon over asap. Very disparate players who happen to use a similar build.

Sergykid

Yazrz wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no issue for easier builds to get the same rewards on the same level of content. But for "community balance" easier should mean weaker. Less effort, less result.

You state this as an absolute truth, but I think this statement can be questioned.

Why can there not be different builds with different levels of effort? Some people enjoy a complicated rotation, whereas some prefer using a less complicated rotation. There will of course always be a difference between someone that executes timers perfectly to someone that is off by 20%. But there is no inherent rule that says that a complicated rotation should result in more DPS.

fair enough, i don't care if the other guy is doing same dps as me with less effort, i personally chose a more complicated rotation because maybe i like playing that way.
but maybe generally it's felt like the gap is bigger, which frustrates people. Also there's leaderboards where players actually care to have a higher spot, only to be approached by someone that didn't work as much and they feel that their position on the leaderboard devalues.

blktauna

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Pug to me pretty much means this is going to be a group of cowboys, just have fun, go with it and hope it doesn't take years.

Words to live by. Especially when you have runners. Hope they die in a mob then don't res them so you can continue in a rational manner

Yazrz

blktauna wrote: »

Vet dungeon puggers are there to get in and get out, not enjoy the activity. I don't agree with that at all but it is a separate issue from what build they are running. These are the same people in normal randoms who just pull a runner and are off killing everything so they get their crystals in under 10 mins. You are not their teammate, you are an inconvenience they must tolerate to get the random dungeon reward in the shortest time.

Nefas group shows HA is a perfectly viable way of approaching content. you still have to know the mechanics, you still have to put in the time to learn coordination and make sure buffs are covered etc. Note the difference between them as an organised group and some pugger who wants the dungeon over asap. Very disparate players who happen to use a similar build.

Agreed, unfortunately the random dungeon is implemented badly in that it is not possible to do it solo. Hence people with very different approaches are forced together. I expect this would not be the case in high end guild.

And having a lot of the game available to solo players is IMO one of the strong suits of ESO, compared to many other MMOs.

Schared

Hello again it appears I have stirred somewhat of a discussion. The pure number of replies suggest that the topic is definetly something worth looking into and I hope the dev's come up with a solution although I have little faith in their team these days.

Due to my own shedule I wont be able to respond to everyone as I did when I originally posted, however I will just attempt to collectively adress some points. Some of the words will be capitalized as they appear to be the most commonly skipped/overread or missunderstood points I attempted to make.

First off damage - this is what most people hyper-focussed on even though it was but one SMALL compound of the entire argument. In short yes I do believe the current build/setup overperforms by roughly 30% as the benchmark for "clearing all content" is far lower than is provided. Now before one gets hung up on that number again - it is purely an approximate.
The ONE thing about damage that I believe MUST be adressed is the Tri-Focus cleave: not only does the AoE scale with enemies hitboxes instead of having a fixed range but the cleave provided is far to high and often misscalculated by the game as it does not take resistances into account properly.

One of the mayor points I made was the issue with a wielders beefyness. Iam not going to go into the details of damage calculation here - please just take away that defensive buffs that are seperate from the actual armourcap make a character hilariously tanky. Buffs like Aegis used to be somewhat tank-unique and are now slapped onto a damage dealer without any loss in another field.

Abundance of buffs - Buffs are direct damage increases that ideally are NOT self-provided as interaction with other players should always yield reward in terms of performance. Having a healer or tank in your group providing a grand spectrum of negative and positive effects should feel good and not the same as running about solo. Especially as it ironically further diminishes the supportive role of say a healer in dugeons as the buffs are self-provided and healing is redundant due to the inert tankyness.

Additionally there where some points that I deemed unworthy of bringing up within the first post as it is often better to focus on a couple of issues rather than trying to adress all at once but as there appears to be genuine interest in the subject I would suggest that yall take some of these into account:

Botters - As far as I can tell the botting problem in eso is now better than it used to be. Atleast that seems to be true for overland content. Yet one should wonder if and easy setup may encourage people to break the TOS for an easy buck.

Flavour of the month - It is my belief that the current state and interaction of the setup is a coincidence and can therefore vanish as quickly as it appeared leaving people stranded as they cannot transfer their rotation to any other build the game provides.

General direction - While the focus here is on heavy-attack-builds in particular there are currently builds that quite similar in idea. One templar setup for example bulks over half its damage into two abilities and its procs - namely lethal arrow and radiant glory. While it obviously not as bad, it is atleast more condensed into fewer buttons and I do not believe that less should be more.


Lastly one argument that many people crafted was the benefit to people with disability the setup could provide. I cannot dismiss that argument easily as certain disabilities do not allow everyone to enjoy the game in a manner I have done and share my experience. However I have come across handycapped people that seemed to thrive and even outperform those who dont share their disadvantage. Matter the fact is that my personal experience has shown that for most it is a matter of instruction, motivation and dedication rather than accessibility - but I cannot deny that some disabilities would be quite difficult to handle and I would be a fool to just blanket-acuse everyone of not trying hard enough. Yet the nagging feeling remains as it has been the mayority of cases I have come across.
The TLDR here from my end would be that accessibility should improve peoples interaction with the game but not necesarily change the game itself.


Lastly I feel pushed to give some constructive feedback or a sort of solution to the issue.
Right now a dummy parse with the before-mentioned build does about 100k - I would tune that down to about 70-75k as it enables those who need it to enjoy the entire game without handycapping their group or encountering any issues throughout 98% of all content. The Tri-Focus cleave needs to be readjusted to scale with the cleaved targets resistances individually and should have a fixed size - my suggestion here would be to align it with other aoe abilities like the 2h stampede or the bows hail. The defensive buffs, aswell as ultigen and empower should be stripped as to make the setup more in line with similar setups while maintaining the overall feel. Additionally removal of said buffs would align them with what other dds have easy access to and keep support-roles relevant.

Thanks for reading once again.

PS Throughout the responses alot of people asked for either validating data or acused of gatekeeping. To the former I would highly recommend familiarizing yourself with ESO-Logs and communities that attempt to push for performance as some of the logs will only be accessible to those they share it with. I think it is stupid that private and unlisted logs are an option but alas get involved, if you look hard enough you will find the mentioned files.
About the gatekeeping - it is a very easy acusation to make towards a stranger and I will not entertain dismissing it as it is a blanket term thrown around without knowledge of me or my intend.

blktauna

a few things,

Just because you choose to treat this game as a second job doesn't mean everyone else must. Feel free to do you but you are in essence gatekeeping when you demand everyone else play only in the way you approve.

Also you do not account for differing goals. Not all players aspire to the same things you do, and even with similar goals, may not wish to take the same approach as you.

Beefiness has nothing to do with Oaken HA builds. I run into mitigation tanks in pvp who are basically unkillable yet can two shot people. They are not HA builds, they are, however, generally DKs.

No one is entitled to demand others play only as they personally approve of, using only the tools and rotations they personally approve of.

Soarora

blktauna wrote: »

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

Sadly I have to agree. From the many HA/Oaken users I've met in mid end game ESO, on average there seems to be a lot more resistance to being a team player than two bar users that I've met. It seems to me like it's more a solo player/single player game mindset as opposed to the traditional team oriented MMO mindset that I'm familiar with in ESO and SWTOR end game and some act as if the group must change and adapt to their build rather than the team member changing and adapting to the team composition and needs in order to accomplish the mission such as slotting a self heal or purge when the trial requires it. I admit that's a player issue and not a specific issue of the build itself but there seems to be some level of correlation between the two on the surface. I can also empathize that if you're finally getting into content that you weren't able to run before due to using a HA build that you might be nervous that you'll lose performance by making changes, but that's where the solid raid leads who know the game and builds come in to help you improve.

If one is a team player willing to adapt to improve then I have no opposition to one bar players, but I do wonder if there isn't soft cap for how many one bar players are realistically viable have in a standard end game group before it becomes a hindrance to group progression. Nefas recently had a group of one bars clear some difficult content but we can all agree that his groups are on the high end of the performance spectrum and they know the content really well so it's not an apples to apples comparison with a normal prog group slogging their way through content for the first time.

Vet dungeon puggers are there to get in and get out, not enjoy the activity. I don't agree with that at all but it is a separate issue from what build they are running. These are the same people in normal randoms who just pull a runner and are off killing everything so they get their crystals in under 10 mins. You are not their teammate, you are an inconvenience they must tolerate to get the random dungeon reward in the shortest time.

Nefas group shows HA is a perfectly viable way of approaching content. you still have to know the mechanics, you still have to put in the time to learn coordination and make sure buffs are covered etc. Note the difference between them as an organised group and some pugger who wants the dungeon over asap. Very disparate players who happen to use a similar build.

This is just blatantly untrue. The pool of people who do random veteran and the pool of people who do random normal are different and run dungeons for different reasons, even within the pools. A lot of people who actually enjoy vet dungeons (not including HM)--such as myself and several people I know--do random veteran INSTEAD of random normal. In fact, I absolutely hate random normal BECAUSE of the sprinting. Veteran dungeons include running as well but it is different: the group must run together or in theory people who run ahead will die. People are more likely to stop if needed and explain mechanics. Plus, there's no point in even doing vet pug just to get in-get out except for monster masks, pledges, and jewelry. Other gear and transmute are easier to grind on normal.
There are people who run ahead in veteran dungeons. But it is not the majority, and they have to learn their lesson of disrespecting their teammates by dying or being kicked. I have never, ever seen a user with oakensoul learn their lesson from running ahead unless multiple people in the group aren't doing it. Something that really stands out to me is in a vet dlc dungeon where both dps were oakensoul HA sorcs. One ran ahead and pulled trash and bosses, making my job as a tank significantly harder. The other wasn't doing mechanics. Neither of them likely learned a thing. I have, on the other hand, been able to kill or watched the doom of non-oakensoul HA players. They don't instantly learn their lesson either, but I hope the frustration of their repeated deaths are steps along the path to "stop pulling before the tank or you will tank it".

I don't see how nerfing the survivability of oakensoul HA would affect any player of that playstyle who are following directions. I have barely seen any argument in this entire thread as to why the survivability is deserved.

And to touch on the "U35 nerfed things" minithread... 2-bar HA deserves better. You deserve better. Why are you arguing that oaken-HA is good enough when you loved your old build and had that taken away from you? You deserve your old build back. That build deserves to be endgame-worthy. So does no-weave, so does true LA builds (like... the ones using the one set from MoS). All should be balanced in that they should be difficult in different ways (edit: Like I tried 2-bar HA myself and I found heavy attack weaving to be easier in being able to hold left-click but harder in that I felt I wasn't able to get to skills fast enough to keep uptimes. So there the progression wouldn't be better LA weaving but better timing of skill usage.) and yet all achieve damage enough to do HMs at minimum. Class identity is on life support. If we can't get that at least we should get playstyle diversity. And then people can play how they want, have their own progression lines, their own sets (reducing set bloat since more could be dedicated to each playstyle), and play in a way that doesn't irritate their disabilities.

Edit: People who weave aren't the enemy. People who follow meta aren't the enemy. I likely said this earlier in the thread but ZOS' narrowing of the meta (and even just what is viable at all) is the enemy. You all are defending a bandaid fix instead of fighting for what you deserve-- better balance. I have not seen a single person in this thread argue that HA as a whole should be nerfed because HA bad, or that people who play HA shouldn't be able to do content. People have eloquently explained why they believe that the balance isn't right and suggested things to fix it that doesn't result in the destruction of the build and even ideas that would let the playstyle grow further and be even more viable than it is now. And yet people keep coming in here and shutting down discussion. We're being turned against each other instead of looking at the broader picture.

blktauna

Soarora, I must just have bad luck with random vet then. I no longer do them unless with a premade group of friends. It's too trying. I do agree that cowboys in a vet dungeon run are super annoying and I dislike dealing with them.

Soarora wrote:

I don't see how nerfing the survivability of oakensoul HA would affect any player of that playstyle who are following directions. I have barely seen any argument in this entire thread as to why the survivability is deserved.

The thing is, you are very specifically focused on dungeon running/trials running. There is a wider range of activities to consider.

Oaken HA builds cover all these activities, just like non oak one bar builds, LA weavers and non la weavers. Solo, overland and pvp needs the survivability. And TBH in practical use, it's not that great a help. a little but not over much, esp in pvp where battle spirit negates most of the perceived bonus.

Soarora wrote:

ZOS' narrowing of the meta (and even just what is viable at all) is the enemy. You all are defending a bandaid fix instead of fighting for what you deserve-- better balance.

I am in complete agreement that the changes ZOS has made in the meta are a giant pain point. We have deserved better balance for years. However we are not there right yet so we must work with the tools we have.