Heavy Attack Builds

Rkindaleft

In regards to new/low APM players, HA is a pretty good thing overall for accessibility. However, it's extremely narrow because it's essentially limited to 2 sets, being Storm Master and Sergeant's Mail. Running nearly anything else except maybe Noble Duelist, is a pretty big DPS loss.

However, the OakenSorc build has, specifically Sorc, because 90%+ of the builds are:

1) Basically 100% of it's damage as AoE
2) Has infinite sustain
3) Is fully ranged
4) Can have 23k-28k resists
5) Can have 30k health, with full undaunted passives

So, Oakensoul builds perform significantly better in content than what a full ST dummy parse (comparing LA to HA) would be able to tell you. I posted a similar message in another thread but I play on PS5/NA and there's like 100s of new Immortal Redeemer in the last month alone because the build gives SO much survivability and still has high damage.

I don't think Oakensoul needs to be nerfed in terms of the buffs it gives, but Empower immediately became overtuned as soon as they changed it to 80% and should be.

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul is a gallon of gasoline, if you throw it on any flame you're gonna get a roaring fire in seconds. I do think there is an issue with Oakensoul being heads/tails stronger than any other mythic in the game... but it doesn't seem to be the root cause of the inundation of HA builds and their insane damage atm; it's Lightning Staves base damage, range attack, unique channel damage combined with HA damage sets, and AOE cleave. It makes for an all around perfect combination that solves all DPS situations flawlessly. Oakensoul just comes along and does what it does: cranks the volume up to 12.

I think if we fixed HA sets to only apply buffs to the final hit, scaled back Lightning Staff damage a bit so that it isn't the single best single target DPS staff and to account for the AOE benefits, and buffed Inferno Staff so that it's damage was more comparable to Bow in the single target damage catagory (maybe even a bit less for flame damage synergies?), then we would be in a healthier place.

Depends on how you define strongest because if you take the tradeoff into account it's really almost the only playable mythic. I'm saying it offers a lot but you have to put it in the context of only to 1 bar builds. I see what you are saying but saying it's the strongest just has to be viewed in a certain window.

It's an interesting thing when you say healthier place. I can say yes there's a lot to say for lightning staff being so strong and I think that's somewhat worth addressing to a minor degree. Other than that is lightning staff the hardest hitting pve build at the moment or is it just the easiest to play?

I just think there's nothing wrong with giving players an easy way to play the game if that's what they want and it seems ok if it's not the most damaging build out there. At that point it's really a player choice as to how they want to play the game. Me personally, I'd probably play oakensoul when I was just trying to farm or help out a friend or otherwise bored and I'd play other builds when I just wanted to have some variation.


I think it's ok to empower the player to make choices.

Billium813

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Oakensoul is a gallon of gasoline, if you throw it on any flame you're gonna get a roaring fire in seconds. I do think there is an issue with Oakensoul being heads/tails stronger than any other mythic in the game... but it doesn't seem to be the root cause of the inundation of HA builds and their insane damage atm; it's Lightning Staves base damage, range attack, unique channel damage combined with HA damage sets, and AOE cleave. It makes for an all around perfect combination that solves all DPS situations flawlessly. Oakensoul just comes along and does what it does: cranks the volume up to 12.

I think if we fixed HA sets to only apply buffs to the final hit, scaled back Lightning Staff damage a bit so that it isn't the single best single target DPS staff and to account for the AOE benefits, and buffed Inferno Staff so that it's damage was more comparable to Bow in the single target damage catagory (maybe even a bit less for flame damage synergies?), then we would be in a healthier place.

Depends on how you define strongest because if you take the tradeoff into account it's really almost the only playable mythic. I'm saying it offers a lot but you have to put it in the context of only to 1 bar builds. I see what you are saying but saying it's the strongest just has to be viewed in a certain window.

It's an interesting thing when you say healthier place. I can say yes there's a lot to say for lightning staff being so strong and I think that's somewhat worth addressing to a minor degree. Other than that is lightning staff the hardest hitting pve build at the moment or is it just the easiest to play?

I just think there's nothing wrong with giving players an easy way to play the game if that's what they want and it seems ok if it's not the most damaging build out there. At that point it's really a player choice as to how they want to play the game. Me personally, I'd probably play oakensoul when I was just trying to farm or help out a friend or otherwise bored and I'd play other builds when I just wanted to have some variation.

I think it's ok to empower the player to make choices.

What trade off? 90% of the players using Oakensoul view the "limitation" of only having 1 skill bar as a boon! For these players, there is no downside here. There SHOULD be even more downside with redundant skills in large groups... like Minor Courage, Minor Berserk, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, & Minor Endurance. But support is in such a terrible place atm, and 100% uptime is so strong, that no one seems to care really. Plus, Oakensoul gives good classic Tank buffs to DPS, which are still applicable (Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Heroism), removing even more stuff that support was needed for and making DPS stonkier than usual. This is subtle stuff, but it adds up and allows organized groups to reeeaaallly focus on damage, pushing the ceiling up more cause support doesn't need to focus on all this framework.

Bushido2513

Billium813 wrote: »

What trade off? 90% of the players using Oakensoul view the "limitation" of only having 1 skill bar as a boon! For these players, there is no downside here. There SHOULD be even more downside with redundant skills in large groups... like Minor Courage, Minor Berserk, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, & Minor Endurance. But support is in such a terrible place atm, and 100% uptime is so strong, that no one seems to care really. Plus, Oakensoul gives good classic Tank buffs to DPS, which are still applicable (Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Heroism), removing even more stuff that support was needed for and making DPS stonkier than usual. This is subtle stuff, but it adds up and allows organized groups to reeeaaallly focus on damage, pushing the ceiling up more cause support doesn't need to focus on all this framework.

Ok so a tradeoff is a tradeoff though I agree it's certainly a matter of preference as to if the user sees it as a good or bad tradeoff. As an example, do you think an Oakensoul build would be stronger if it could use both bars? If the answer is yes then that means that there is a tradeoff. I would actually guess that with two bars and oakensoul build would be game breakingly strong.

But isn't the point of using a mythic to be happy enough with the tradeoff that you run it? So if people are happy with the tradeoff or see it as a benefit and it only really affects PVE then what's so bad about it?

Ok but let's take your points and address them. I mean you're right a bunch of players are getting 100% uptime on buffs that they normally couldn't maintain, but the ring has to work in solo and group content. True, they could give it the pale order treatment but why?

Ok before anyone answers that why let me put it context. When I see groups getting godslayer with heavy attack builds that could not do it otherwise, I might actually be concerned.

Till then who cares if people want to go around having fun blowing up content and not having to work a second job to do it?

colossalvoids

There are ha godslayers already, people posted logs here also. Not that those players weren't experienced with it though but vas and other trials situation is way different, it would actually enable a lot of struggling groups to do it without any problem now, learning curve would be way less punishing. Less so in newer trials.

You're looking at it from perspective of "it's just a game" side of things, that's absolutely fine but it's an mmo with competetive sides to it, there are leaderboards and game was and will be balanced indefinitely because of its competetive nature. Buff/nerf cycle is actually the only way progression in eso works past the certain point basically being THE content. When there's an item enabling people that can't manage to get 40 to do 80 whilst makeing them off-tanks that don't play resources mini game they're obviously exstatic about doing all the content they were barred from, but it causes balancing issues.

About abuse, it's indeed not and it's just a legitimate way of play in current patches. But it definitely feels like to play one, was my first thought when tried it out. After all the years nothing before seems even close to it with that feeling, maybe thrassians did but uses vere quite limited and it was just raw damage toy.

Personally I'm not calling for nerfs etc. I don't really care tbh but it's out of their own balancing nightmare by miles. And it obviously would be touched in the future, (and not because forums or something, they have enough data already) not sure how they would retain it's use whilst making it in line but that's on the team introducing it at the first place. Would it hurt the competetive side of the game in a long run if not touched? Absolutely. But are zos actually willing their game to have any serious competetive side in the future is the question, they might be perfectly fine with going away from it and part of their old audience.

KlauthWarthog

I do not think that heavy attack sets and skills are going to stay as they currently are.
The changes that lead to it were not of the "carefully thought out and tested for months before the PTS started" variety, they were cobbled together from scratch while U35's PTS cycles were ongoing. So I am quite confident that we are going to see some "adjustments" in the future, as the dust settles.
But, I do not expect them to flat out destroy this playstyle (again). They already did so once when U35 first hit the PTS, and then hurried to rectify it. And this hurry is the reason why this playstyle is so narrow on how it can be executed - sergeant's, storm master, empower.
Because I only use HA builds while soloing scarier stuff, I use infallible instead of storm master and pale order insted of oakensoul, 2 bars for the buffs. And, let me tell you, sergeant's mail flat out punishes you for daring to use a back bar for buffs and dots. The need to get a tick of a heavy attack out to prevent the stacks from dropping does not mix well with a 5 seconds duration. They copied the duration from relequen and other sets of the sort, but those other sets require instant stuff to keep up, like a melee light attack. I almost never drop stacks on relequen or AY, and yet I find myself with 0 stacks of sergeant's focus pretty much every time that I have to dodge or block something while refreshing buffs on the back bar.
And this kind of oversight is the reason why I am confident that the entire thing has been hurried out, and will get adjustments as time goes by.

Bushido2513

colossalvoids wrote: »

There are ha godslayers already, people posted logs here also. Not that those players weren't experienced with it though but vas and other trials situation is way different, it would actually enable a lot of struggling groups to do it without any problem now, learning curve would be way less punishing. Less so in newer trials.

Sorry I shouldn't have stated it so simply. I'm talking about the people that had very little chance of doing this content before. If they suddenly became Godslayers I would say that's maybe worth looking at. But if they still have to have the experience and perform at a fairy high level then how they do it doesn't really matter.

colossalvoids wrote: »

You're looking at it from perspective of "it's just a game" side of things, that's absolutely fine but it's an mmo with competetive sides to it, there are leaderboards and game was and will be balanced indefinitely because of its competetive nature. Buff/nerf cycle is actually the only way progression in eso works past the certain point basically being THE content. When there's an item enabling people that can't manage to get 40 to do 80 whilst makeing them off-tanks that don't play resources mini game they're obviously exstatic about doing all the content they were barred from, but it causes balancing issues.

The "competitive" side of this game is basically just there for people that want to see the game from that perspective. The continued rebalancing is also there to keep the game fresh. We've already seen patch cycles where things where changed and the reasoning almost could be said to be we just wanted to shake players up and give them a reason to grind something else.

Yes I will say that if someone is looking to be a score pusher, have certain titles, and use these things as a measuring stick then yes oakensoul could seem to threaten that but the whole thing is just really how you want to see it.

The content is PVE (player vs environment) but this debate is trying to turn it into PVP and that's just not the situation.

So I'll provide a real world scenario on how I see these things. Back when there was no oakensoul, pale order, etc, I worked HARDDDDDDDDDDD for my first VMA clear and even HARDDDDDDERRRRRRR for my first Flawless Conqueror.

At this point pretty much anyone can get those and I will admit as it first became easier I was calling out people saying well how did you get it. The way someone in pvp might ask which campaign you got emp in.

Eventually I had to realize that someone else getting the title doesn't take away from the experience I had mastering the content. I don't need to watch someone struggle to know how much skill I actually put into what I did for myself personally.

Also a lot of the content and systems of the game just are NOT geared towards true player competition. There's no real anti cheating mechanisms, a sub par rewards tier system, etc.

When something besides someone's imagined ego is on the line then he I'd be glad to say this isn't good for the game but that's not the case here.


As for direction of the future of the game, unless I see a big swing otherwise I think it's pretty clear that oakensoul is pointing the way generally speaking. Yes it will probably get changed a bit, even if it's just to shake things up but the game will still be about pulling in and keeping the casuals fairly happy.

colossalvoids

We don't disagree much, one thing is that I define competetive from mechanical standpoint more of, like score calculations which are going into leaderboards. If something is messing up with it too much it's probably having some issues. Like was synergy between old perfected vas inferno and dk time ago, my favourite nerfed combination I guess. It wasn't that level but still got a quick axe to the neck, so if this actually some new direction from zeni I'd really like some backtracking to bring some fun and variability back at least. It's only half serious as after years and years of reading every single patch note I'm pretty sure they're having no actual plan and acting strictly reactively. And this time they just have no idea how to retain it's potential without hurting players that actually need it as a tool to progress through the game, not only overland (which would be a quick fix) but would hurt ones who first stepped into harder content just because of it feeling less pressure.

Bushido2513

colossalvoids wrote: »

We don't disagree much, one thing is that I define competetive from mechanical standpoint more of, like score calculations which are going into leaderboards. If something is messing up with it too much it's probably having some issues. Like was synergy between old perfected vas inferno and dk time ago, my favourite nerfed combination I guess. It wasn't that level but still got a quick axe to the neck, so if this actually some new direction from zeni I'd really like some backtracking to bring some fun and variability back at least. It's only half serious as after years and years of reading every single patch note I'm pretty sure they're having no actual plan and acting strictly reactively. And this time they just have no idea how to retain it's potential without hurting players that actually need it as a tool to progress through the game, not only overland (which would be a quick fix) but would hurt ones who first stepped into harder content just because of it feeling less pressure.

I totally get what you're saying and many times have I wished this game was something that it clearly isn't able to or trying to be. I just try to accept it and understand that if I want a different experience I need to look at playing another game. I can't fault ZOS for trying to make money based on easier bandaid methods. I mean there are devs out there actually cheating their customers and not even giving the majority the fun experience they promised.

Not everyone likes Oakensoul but it seems that more do than don't so in that respect ZOS seems to be hitting the overall mark. As we all know, you can't please everyone.

In this case I think anyone that doesn't like oakensoul will just have to sit it out till the point where ZOS changes it just to shake things up a bit. This won't be the last PVE related mythic they will need to sell

Schared

Oakensoul is a gallon of gasoline, if you throw it on any flame you're gonna get a roaring fire in seconds. I do think there is an issue with Oakensoul being heads/tails stronger than any other mythic in the game... but it doesn't seem to be the root cause of the inundation of HA builds and their insane damage atm; it's Lightning Staves base damage, range attack, unique channel damage combined with HA damage sets, and AOE cleave. It makes for an all around perfect combination that solves all DPS situations flawlessly. Oakensoul just comes along and does what it does: cranks the volume up to 12.

I think if we fixed HA sets to only apply buffs to the final hit, scaled back Lightning Staff damage a bit so that it isn't the single best single target DPS staff and to account for the AOE benefits, and buffed Inferno Staff so that it's damage was more comparable to Bow in the single target damage catagory (maybe even a bit less for flame damage synergies?), then we would be in a healthier place.[/quote]

Yes, I made that point already previously. However I do not agree with ur sentiment entirely since I believe having all buffs - especially in 4 man content devalues healers.

Schared

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

First of all, no one is abusing anything here. This setup is no exploit.
Second. Cloudrest is a 5 year old trial. Why do you still care?

Obviously its not an exploit - thats why i said "using/abusing" to cover all peoples narratives. However as it is very much a sudden apperance that tips the scales it may be gone tommorow so people use this perhaps temporary advantage.

Iam very passionate about ESO - It used to be my favorite pastime and as previously described in the orginal post aswell as some replies I do think integrity matters and the general direction of a game is important.

Schared

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Hello hello, as more and more people use/abuse the setup - more examples become public.
Recently I ran into a Cloudrest hardmode clear with 133921 score.

https://youtu.be/C7yumlXsHkk

While they did infact not manage to triple it - you can definetly see that it is in the realm of posibility.
Once again I would like to point out the issues in cleave, tankyness and buff presence.

Just attached to this - the barswapping no debuff thing has been adressed but this already introduces the issue i mentioned in my original post - the game now gets balanced around the mistakes.

@Schared

So honestly I think I get what you want the game to be but this is not that if we judge things based on the direction of the game.

But set that aside for a moment, who was hurt by this? You say abuse this setup but I don't see where the abuse comes in. They cleared the content and got a good score. Other groups could do the same thing but if it's in the game, they want to go farm it, put the builds together and run them then what's the point of worrying about it?

Can another group of players do this or better without Oakensoul? The answer is yes so it's not like people have to play this type of setup, they just choose to and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with that?

Right - so for the sake of argument you want to dismiss all the groups that invest most time into the game correct?
Perhaps Iam misunderstanding here but even though communities like the one generally refered to as "Endgame" or others like "Roleplaying" groups may be minorities but I think are just as valid and perhaps even most important for the games health.
But I endulge you in terms of who is getting hurt: Generally obviously nobody - right now. With hybridtization and overall "dumbing down" of set effects ESO clearly walks the path of simplyfication. Which can be a good thing. Yet I already quite often find people that feel their class fantasy is lost- wanting to play an actual mage without daggers or a rogue without staves, feeling forced to play a singular setup - in this example sorc obviously and being excluded from content because they may not have all the ingame DLC bought.

Now I can see being dismissive about the first two as they are obviously up to taste - and someone liking playing 1 setup and 1 class - always is just as valid as someone who likes to play variety with a mix of setups.

However the fact that buying extra content is required to compete is not quite as nice. Now obviously there are still groups recruiting anyone - but iam sure you have seen some already switch to recruit specificly Oakensorcs in zone-chats. Which not only represents a social but also at times a monetary lockout from content.

Another point I wanted to bring up here that may only have limited relevance is botting. The ease that comes with playing these setups enables them to be automized. That is all Iam gonna say here as the Moderation Team is quite iffy with those comments.

Lastly I want to bring up a more elusive point. Player count. As we are still comming of the heel of Covid alot of online services look healthier than they actualy are - one of which being ESO. You'd be fooling yourself if you believe that ESO in its current state is an attractive game that people actively seek out. The issue is - retention. While the game has made great strides for accesibility they have failed to up the player retention - alot of people play but just for a little while and never come back. Obviously the Heavy Attack builds adressed in this post arent at singular fault at that however I believe they exemplify the issues with the game. ESO has become far less competetive on the topend as there are simply fewer players and pvp has been dead for a minute - while you may take the "its just a fraction of the playerbase" stance it is important to see them for what they do. Most people reading this will most likely have followed a build guide before or consumed ESO content on secondary platforms. These extraordinary passionate players not only keep the game in public eye but go to great lengths in helping people find footing in the game. But it is exactly that fraction of the playerbase that keeps getting alienated and once they quit they are quite often gone forever. Other MMO's like WoW often see people return for a patch but most of my Friendslist just stacks up time spend offline at this point.

Hope I managed to shed light on "who is getting hurt" matey~
Iam not going into all the implications of it but you are most likely capable of making these connections like: Bots -> inflated economy ~~

Bushido2513

Opps disregard

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

Right - so for the sake of argument you want to dismiss all the groups that invest most time into the game correct?
Perhaps Iam misunderstanding here but even though communities like the one generally refered to as "Endgame" or others like "Roleplaying" groups may be minorities but I think are just as valid and perhaps even most important for the games health.

@Schared

So there are different views of game health. The game needs players to keep the money flowing in and you can't please everyone so you go with your largest target audience if the plan is to choose to turn a profit. I'm not saying I don't think people have a valid point if they pay for something and feel like it should be this something but this is a piece of art we're talking about here. By that I mean it's something different to a lot of people that play the game.

So just like sometimes you think you're going to go see this movie and you walk in and halfway through it turns out to be this movie or when a tv show changes direction. That's pretty much what's going on here. I don't want to ignore anyone but I do want everyone to acknowledge what this game seems to be turning into and not rally against those that want to go with that flow.

Classic example and I won't go on a tangent here but PVP. I want PVP to be taken much more seriously, etc, etc but that's clearly not the agenda ZOS is on. I'm in the minority and yes I can say things about it but if other people are ok with it, don't care, etc, well that's fine too. There are other franchises for which I'd likely be the target audience and yes I don't feel like getting into them but that's not a reason to try to overly push to make this game what it isn't trying to be.

Schared wrote: »

But I endulge you in terms of who is getting hurt: Generally obviously nobody - right now. With hybridtization and overall "dumbing down" of set effects ESO clearly walks the path of simplyfication. Which can be a good thing. Yet I already quite often find people that feel their class fantasy is lost- wanting to play an actual mage without daggers or a rogue without staves, feeling forced to play a singular setup - in this example sorc obviously and being excluded from content because they may not have all the ingame DLC bought.

Now I can see being dismissive about the first two as they are obviously up to taste - and someone liking playing 1 setup and 1 class - always is just as valid as someone who likes to play variety with a mix of setups.

However the fact that buying extra content is required to compete is not quite as nice. Now obviously there are still groups recruiting anyone - but iam sure you have seen some already switch to recruit specificly Oakensorcs in zone-chats. Which not only represents a social but also at times a monetary lockout from content.

/quote]

That's just the nature of the beast and comes with pretty much any game to some degree. I'm speaking of buying in in some form or another. Everyone in this game pays for something, be it DLC, housing stuff, misc stuff, etc. There have always been groups that will require you to have something to play with them and that's generally just how life is. If I want to go play hockey with friends tomorrow I'm going to need to buy some gear. That's just the way of the world and definitely this game as it's entertainment but it's also a business. Also what do we always say about groups requesting xyz, if you don't have it or don't want to get it go find another group/guild, there are plenty and that's one of the upsides of the game, finding people that play the way you want to.

It may be a game but don't stop thinking that this is still a business. The only time we should usually worry about paywalls is if it's something you can't otherwise do which is not the case here. You can usually have a decent build on eso free but yeah make no mistake they make it clear that the incentive is for you to buy in to maximize your experience.

Schared wrote: »

Another point I wanted to bring up here that may only have limited relevance is botting. The ease that comes with playing these setups enables them to be automized. That is all Iam gonna say here as the Moderation Team is quite iffy with those comments.

Lastly I want to bring up a more elusive point. Player count. As we are still comming of the heel of Covid alot of online services look healthier than they actualy are - one of which being ESO. You'd be fooling yourself if you believe that ESO in its current state is an attractive game that people actively seek out. The issue is - retention. While the game has made great strides for accesibility they have failed to up the player retention - alot of people play but just for a little while and never come back. Obviously the Heavy Attack builds adressed in this post arent at singular fault at that however I believe they exemplify the issues with the game. ESO has become far less competetive on the topend as there are simply fewer players and pvp has been dead for a minute - while you may take the "its just a fraction of the playerbase" stance it is important to see them for what they do. Most people reading this will most likely have followed a build guide before or consumed ESO content on secondary platforms. These extraordinary passionate players not only keep the game in public eye but go to great lengths in helping people find footing in the game. But it is exactly that fraction of the playerbase that keeps getting alienated and once they quit they are quite often gone forever. Other MMO's like WoW often see people return for a patch but most of my Friendslist just stacks up time spend offline at this point.

Hope I managed to shed light on "who is getting hurt" matey~
Iam not going into all the implications of it but you are most likely capable of making these connections like: Bots -> inflated economy ~~

Bots are just here to stay, every game like this deals with them to more or less of a degree. That's a whole other subject but was very much present before oakensoul. Perhaps it makes it easier but either way it would just still be a part of the game unless the signup/monitoring system got a whole lot more invasive but again I think this game is leaning towards casual mode so your mileage may vary on that subject.

So here's what I think about this game basically drying up. I think ZOS will continue to go for the money and I trust them to do that. By that I mean that whatever happens with this game, they will do what's needed to retain customers. The game might erode while this happens and that would be sad but I also think that would be hard to see given how many people I've seen put years into this game.

This game won't be here forever but I think it's a ways away from dying. With the new class on the way and server upgrades happening things might just turn all the way around even. But for right now yeah you're going to have to deal with them taking the easy street and just letting people have things like oakensoul.

Maybe thing of oakensoul as a short term fix to make players happy that will get adjusted to somewhere reasonable once they have a shiny new class to dangle in front of people.

Schared

And interesting thought, I can do little here aside from refering you to google and steam-data to suggest that the direction they are taking is incorrect and therefore my point perhaps valid.


And again if were talking attractiveness of a game it is about publicity. ESO's content creators are a minority that is not currently being taken care off. People are often dismissive about said creators but they are a driving force for video games these days. Same for people that have spend their time figuring out ESO. Without intending offense here but if I was to search advice on builds, parsing or pvp setups - I would hammer that into google and a youtube video of an endgamer would pop up with a number next to it for orientation.

Schared

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

Schared

Btw no hate to the oakensoul/heavy attack users I use in examples.
It is simply a product of bad game design and no individual player is to blame for making the most of it.

Schared

colossalvoids wrote: »

We don't disagree much, one thing is that I define competetive from mechanical standpoint more of, like score calculations which are going into leaderboards. If something is messing up with it too much it's probably having some issues. Like was synergy between old perfected vas inferno and dk time ago, my favourite nerfed combination I guess. It wasn't that level but still got a quick axe to the neck, so if this actually some new direction from zeni I'd really like some backtracking to bring some fun and variability back at least. It's only half serious as after years and years of reading every single patch note I'm pretty sure they're having no actual plan and acting strictly reactively. And this time they just have no idea how to retain it's potential without hurting players that actually need it as a tool to progress through the game, not only overland (which would be a quick fix) but would hurt ones who first stepped into harder content just because of it feeling less pressure.

And interesting viewpoint - but I disagree with your last point. I believe the hardest difficulty should be a challenge and therefore create pressure - hence the word difficult. Relaxing attitudes are just as welcome, but perhaps in normal mode or veteran-nonhm.

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

And interesting thought, I can do little here aside from refering you to google and steam-data to suggest that the direction they are taking is incorrect and therefore my point perhaps valid.

@Schared

And again if were talking attractiveness of a game it is about publicity. ESO's content creators are a minority that is not currently being taken care off. People are often dismissive about said creators but they are a driving force for video games these days. Same for people that have spend their time figuring out ESO. Without intending offense here but if I was to search advice on builds, parsing or pvp setups - I would hammer that into google and a youtube video of an endgamer would pop up with a number next to it for orientation.

But that's sort of just how their model works, players leave and players come back. It's actually sort of rigged up that way. I haven't played the game in a month or so but I know my characters, gold, etc are always there just waiting for me anytime I want. Also when the new class drops you can get there will be a surge.

So here's the part that is missing from your calculations that we cant' see. We see population and we see varying degrees of content creators but what we don't see is revenue counts which works in a different way than the game.

So let's say the new class drops, people by crowns for race changes, dlc, etc. They might spend it in one big burst then either keep playing or drop off. Some might let the sub keep running just because they forgot to cancel or feel they might come back and are too lazy

So while you see a trend from the outside it's not always directly effective of how the company is or isn't turning a profit. The only way we know that is when the company stops making new content or just closes down the game.

That being said, they were bought out by MS so they may have more cash to play with and more time to do other things in the background. At this point they've dug in so far that there are several things they could just announce that indicate listening to the player that would just bring certain sets of players back to the game even if for a little while, again generating small sales.

Oakensoul is just another move to keep sales going and that gives them space to pivot for a while if the want to.

Schared

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And interesting thought, I can do little here aside from refering you to google and steam-data to suggest that the direction they are taking is incorrect and therefore my point perhaps valid.

@Schared

And again if were talking attractiveness of a game it is about publicity. ESO's content creators are a minority that is not currently being taken care off. People are often dismissive about said creators but they are a driving force for video games these days. Same for people that have spend their time figuring out ESO. Without intending offense here but if I was to search advice on builds, parsing or pvp setups - I would hammer that into google and a youtube video of an endgamer would pop up with a number next to it for orientation.

But that's sort of just how their model works, players leave and players come back. It's actually sort of rigged up that way. I haven't played the game in a month or so but I know my characters, gold, etc are always there just waiting for me anytime I want. Also when the new class drops you can get there will be a surge.

So here's the part that is missing from your calculations that we cant' see. We see population and we see varying degrees of content creators but what we don't see is revenue counts which works in a different way than the game.

So let's say the new class drops, people by crowns for race changes, dlc, etc. They might spend it in one big burst then either keep playing or drop off. Some might let the sub keep running just because they forgot to cancel or feel they might come back and are too lazy

So while you see a trend from the outside it's not always directly effective of how the company is or isn't turning a profit. The only way we know that is when the company stops making new content or just closes down the game.

That being said, they were bought out by MS so they may have more cash to play with and more time to do other things in the background. At this point they've dug in so far that there are several things they could just announce that indicate listening to the player that would just bring certain sets of players back to the game even if for a little while, again generating small sales.

Oakensoul is just another move to keep sales going and that gives them space to pivot for a while if the want to.

Theres few things I can say on their money making model - you are correct. I view it is predatory anyway.

Iam fighting for a better game here not for better revenue - so I cannot dissolve that if it is your argument.

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

@Schared

Depending on what modes they play, how many friends they have, what new content is pushed out (including new class), there are actually a variety of reasons they might still be active.

For instance I mostly pvp. I've done a lot of the hard content in pve and I will still do it to help guild members, friends, etc. For me pve content might as well be dry because I only do it to get gear. But like I said I will still do it from time to time when I'm not playing my main game mode. Sometimes I read about a new build and just go do vma just for the hey of it.

This game is actually very repetitive at times, if it wasn't for the mmo aspect many wouldn't likely bother to stick around but because of that players do stick around even when the content is stale to some degree.

Sometimes I do an old dungeon just to laugh and see how people play it these days or because sometimes I just want to nuke an ad, boss, whatever.

My point is that we can't really make blanket statements that content being easier might lead to people leaving. There are luckily other good reasons like other people, habit, familiarity, etc that keep people playing this game.

Schared

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

@Schared

Depending on what modes they play, how many friends they have, what new content is pushed out (including new class), there are actually a variety of reasons they might still be active.

For instance I mostly pvp. I've done a lot of the hard content in pve and I will still do it to help guild members, friends, etc. For me pve content might as well be dry because I only do it to get gear. But like I said I will still do it from time to time when I'm not playing my main game mode. Sometimes I read about a new build and just go do vma just for the hey of it.

This game is actually very repetitive at times, if it wasn't for the mmo aspect many wouldn't likely bother to stick around but because of that players do stick around even when the content is stale to some degree.

Sometimes I do an old dungeon just to laugh and see how people play it these days or because sometimes I just want to nuke an ad, boss, whatever.

My point is that we can't really make blanket statements that content being easier might lead to people leaving. There are luckily other good reasons like other people, habit, familiarity, etc that keep people playing this game.

Thats why I initialy did not use blanket statements and rather implied everything else. These posts are made as to flesh out peoples understanding. The data was aviable from the get-go.

Schared

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

@Schared

Depending on what modes they play, how many friends they have, what new content is pushed out (including new class), there are actually a variety of reasons they might still be active.

For instance I mostly pvp. I've done a lot of the hard content in pve and I will still do it to help guild members, friends, etc. For me pve content might as well be dry because I only do it to get gear. But like I said I will still do it from time to time when I'm not playing my main game mode. Sometimes I read about a new build and just go do vma just for the hey of it.

This game is actually very repetitive at times, if it wasn't for the mmo aspect many wouldn't likely bother to stick around but because of that players do stick around even when the content is stale to some degree.

Sometimes I do an old dungeon just to laugh and see how people play it these days or because sometimes I just want to nuke an ad, boss, whatever.

My point is that we can't really make blanket statements that content being easier might lead to people leaving. There are luckily other good reasons like other people, habit, familiarity, etc that keep people playing this game.

Also as you are quite active - I would like to hear your understanding/narrative.

As far as I understand you realize that the game is not in good shape, you understand that people have varying influence no matter their community size and you grasp that zos needs to make money - Are you completely passive. Is your stance "let it happen"? Because I rather not, I rather try and fail.

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

Theres few things I can say on their money making model - you are correct. I view it is predatory anyway.

Iam fighting for a better game here not for better revenue - so I cannot dissolve that if it is your argument.

@Schared

Now you want to talk about endgame, that's a hard fight. You're taking on the people that enjoy oakensoul for the moment and ZOS making money off of them. That's some hardcore synergy right there. The game might also just bein maintenance mode till they gear up for the release of X new IP.

Personally I wouldn't want to say don't fight for what you want, I think you should if it feels like the right use of your time.

Personally I just take it for what it is, add a little input from time to time and otherwise just put my money/energy towards things that offer more value to me. I wish it was this game which is the sad part. I'd dump a lot of cash on them right now if they would just make the game better in the aspects I and my friends need. But like I said they just seem to want the low hanging fruit.

Schared

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Theres few things I can say on their money making model - you are correct. I view it is predatory anyway.

Iam fighting for a better game here not for better revenue - so I cannot dissolve that if it is your argument.

@Schared

Now you want to talk about endgame, that's a hard fight. You're taking on the people that enjoy oakensoul for the moment and ZOS making money off of them. That's some hardcore synergy right there. The game might also just bein maintenance mode till they gear up for the release of X new IP.

Personally I wouldn't want to say don't fight for what you want, I think you should if it feels like the right use of your time.

Personally I just take it for what it is, add a little input from time to time and otherwise just put my money/energy towards things that offer more value to me. I wish it was this game which is the sad part. I'd dump a lot of cash on them right now if they would just make the game better in the aspects I and my friends need. But like I said they just seem to want the low hanging fruit.

Ye as I thought we had an accord - In wish case I would prefer you support me mate. You need to udnerstand that most people do not properly read every post nor do the moderators they scan it all for some time and then settle. You posting semi-critizism makes it look like you support the "pro heavy attack side" while it is clearly more nuanced.

Most of your arguments are almost excusatory in nature which may make the entire thread harder to read - feel by no means obliged to stop posting - Iam just suggesting to represent yourself properly.

colossalvoids

Schared wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

We don't disagree much, one thing is that I define competetive from mechanical standpoint more of, like score calculations which are going into leaderboards. If something is messing up with it too much it's probably having some issues. Like was synergy between old perfected vas inferno and dk time ago, my favourite nerfed combination I guess. It wasn't that level but still got a quick axe to the neck, so if this actually some new direction from zeni I'd really like some backtracking to bring some fun and variability back at least. It's only half serious as after years and years of reading every single patch note I'm pretty sure they're having no actual plan and acting strictly reactively. And this time they just have no idea how to retain it's potential without hurting players that actually need it as a tool to progress through the game, not only overland (which would be a quick fix) but would hurt ones who first stepped into harder content just because of it feeling less pressure.

And interesting viewpoint - but I disagree with your last point. I believe the hardest difficulty should be a challenge and therefore create pressure - hence the word difficult. Relaxing attitudes are just as welcome, but perhaps in normal mode or veteran-nonhm.

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

Katlefiya

colossalvoids wrote: »

Stepping in harder content, not the hardest one. Seeing it as veteran difficulty personally, preferably dungeons as those aren't leaderboards material. HM's and trifectas are different thing for a different public and here lies the issue people are having when Oaken crosses this border. Gl to zeni figuring out how to mend the wound they've created.

This "wound" is only there, because you choose to see it as a problem when HA/Oakensoul builds compete with you on the leaderboards, although there is nothing inherently wrong with these builds. You choose to see them as a threat to your own precious way to play the game, a way that you somehow deem to be the only legitmate way to do it at the top.

axi

Schared wrote: »

And another one falls - as the keen eye may be able to see it is largely the same people beating this triple - this time getting the achievement. As most achievement groups progress these achievements for about 3 months to half a year and it took these guys less than a month I wonder how long till everything is knocked out and content runs dry. Lets check in in half a year to see how many of these players are still active.

One thing is oakensoul setups being slightly too good right now but another is progression time. It didn't took these guys a month of progression. It took them way more since they all were experienced with vRG HM before running there as oakensorcs. That time they've spend and experience they gained there before also counts. It wasn't a progression from scratch.

haelgaan

[snip]

Advanced players using Oakensoul are able to complete advanced content. The same advanced players are also able to complete the same content with their regular Nirn/Relequen sets. I would bet that those advanced players could also finish the content wearing Hunding's and Order's Wrath. The player that knows the mechanics and how to play can use nearly any combination of gear sets, maximize it, and be competitive.

Slapping Oak on and jumping in to content is not a pass to instant success. It's just a different set, and a different way to play, nothing more. Bad players that ignore mechs, stand in stupid, and die, are still bad players that ignore mechs, stand in stupid, and die even when wearing Oak. (easily evidenced by any of the many random's i've done - dps that dies is always dps that dies, regardless of whether they're dual wielding or using a l-staff)

HA builds are HA builds, they've been around forever. Oak only made them more visible, and has become a lightning rod for folks to attack. [snip]


[edited for baiting]

Bushido2513

Schared wrote: »

Ye as I thought we had an accord - In wish case I would prefer you support me mate. You need to udnerstand that most people do not properly read every post nor do the moderators they scan it all for some time and then settle. You posting semi-critizism makes it look like you support the "pro heavy attack side" while it is clearly more nuanced.

Most of your arguments are almost excusatory in nature which may make the entire thread harder to read - feel by no means obliged to stop posting - Iam just suggesting to represent yourself properly.

That's fair, and to be clear...

I support heavy attack builds and people having fun using them in their previous and current incarnation.

I support ZOS as a company being smart about offering an entertainment experience and making a profit while doing so.

I support the idea of proper and careful game development which gives the player the best experience (including taking in feedback) and most bang for their buck.

I do NOT support players trying to tell other players that they don't personally know how they should go about enjoying their PVE experience.

I hope that's clearer on where I stand on the subject.