Heavy Attack Builds

Artim_X · March 2023

Soarora wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

What a lot of peeps on the forum seem to forget is that update 35 gutted damage by kicking the floor right under players who were just trying to be functional in comparison to other players. In the original update 35 PTS, my two-bar sorc that utilized skills and heavy attacks loss 4k in damage on the 3 million health dummy. This was after incorporating empower into its kit via the new dungeon set and adjusting my rotation. It was only after ZOS made a variety of changes to the empower buff, ground AOEs, etc. That I was able to get back the damage I had loss and incorporating empower is a key component to that. However, this did not make my damage go beyond what I was hitting prior to update 35. Bellow are examples of parses I did, before the changes to elemental susceptibility.

Artim_X wrote: »

Once I incorporated empower into my setup, my damage returned to what it was before the patch with some tweaks to my rotation. Both my setups can get more than 50k + on the trial dummy, but for consistency with previous patches I used the 3 million dummy where my usual goal is 30k on a DPS build.
Magsorc Parse live:

Should become a bit higher once the maelstrom staff bug is fixed.
Rotation: Buff up with Boundless Storm and Crit Surge with Twilight Tormentor activated, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, drop Thunderous Rage Ultimate whenever it is active, then Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, quickly weapon swap, Lightning Flood, three heavy attacks, activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, and repeat rotation without activating Reach (activated every other rotation). During the execute phase (around 20% health) replace the second heavy attack with about 4 Mages' Wrath, but if boss is melting quickly just keep spamming Wrath (1 heavy, 4 wraths, 1 heavy).
Gear: 5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Rage of the Ursauk's jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers (Divines with Max Mag Enchant).

I absolutely love Infallible Mage and will still rock it on my mag sorc no matter what. Although buffs to it would be greatly appreciated. I use Rage of the Ursauk to get empower active throughout my rotation without having to incorporate a skill that grants empower. Before switching to Ursauk I was rocking 5 piece Kinras's.

Magplar Parse PTS:

A very casual one-bar aedric spear heavy attack meme build that I'm currently recreating on live with a new character.
Rotation: Maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, Crescent Sweep at start of fight then on cooldown right after a heavy attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep Heavy Attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, etc. etc. till enemy dead.
Gear: I messed around with different heavy attacks sets, but the only combination that consistently gave me the results I wanted was my absolute favorite Infallible Mage and Sergeant's Mail.
5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Oakensoul Ring (arcane with spell damage enchant), Sergeant's Mail chest (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), and Sergeant's Mail's ring + necklace (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/shock enchant).

Artim_X wrote: »

My Magsorc parse increased after the maelstrom staff fix.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

tincanman wrote: »

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

I think it's coming from some (but not all) mid-tier players who, having struggled to attain competence but are not yet at the limits of what's possible, have found similar results with an 'easier' HA setup. It would seem that in an effort to make their efforts more meaningful, some mid-tier players want to destroy the transient, subjective parity they experience between their useage of 2-bar builds and HA builds and the most expedient way to do this for them seems to be to call for nerfs of the HA builds or to make LA-weaving more powerful.

It's really kind of bad game design that's making players feel this way. They wouldn't want to really mess with HA players if they had some content to chew on that allows them to go be skilled elite ninja killers.

But this is much the PG13 vs R rating situation I think in respect to where ZOS is taking it. More easy content makes for more new players and even some player retention. More and more this is a game that's on story mode vs give me a challenge mode and maybe people just have to accept the change but that's not to say that their feelings over the issues don't have legitimate standing.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

It's a weird double edged sword unfortunately. Bring the damage down too far and it's back to being considered sub par and now you get frowned upon for lower that awesome dps and using a HA build to get it. I think it might be what ends up happening if anything but I really do wish they would just come out with better content that rewards properly for investment. This would be more fair to everyone.

jaws343 · March 2023

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And yeah, for sure. I understand HA still has to do some (not all, again, high defense) mechanics but doing mechanics while doing a rotation and doing mechanics while just holding left click and occasionally other skills are very different.
And I do mostly play in closed groups. But even then, this topic isn't avoidable. Because believe it or not people really do use 1-bar HA builds in trifectas and succeed, trifectas I either see or am there for. And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

To me, achievements are individual. A 7-month godslayer prog feels more like an achievement than a 1-month prog. I’m never policing other peoples achievements, but that’s how I view my own. So I don’t mind the achievement setup as they are now. Though, to tie some things together, I don’t feel like my IR is worth a non-HA IR like I said. But it was HA IR or nothing.

Maybe the problem is more that players have normalized Vet progression as a job. 7 months spent on 1 dungeon is absurd.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

But they are not a free trifecta giver. You still have to know the mechanics and be able to use the build effectively. Any trifecta Youtube posts right now are from full, experienced groups, who already sleepwalk through these trials. Your average joe, 80K max dps player, is still not going to get any of these achievements without being carried if they don't know the mechanics, or are only parsing on a dummy.

This is correct and it's not a Trifecta giver in that sense but it's also much easier to learn mechanics and such if you're less worried about buffs and rotation for damge.

So maybe more like ez mode training wheels?

Bushido2513 · March 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But they are not a free trifecta giver. You still have to know the mechanics and be able to use the build effectively. Any trifecta Youtube posts right now are from full, experienced groups, who already sleepwalk through these trials. Your average joe, 80K max dps player, is still not going to get any of these achievements without being carried if they don't know the mechanics, or are only parsing on a dummy.

The damage alone, no, you're right with that, but stacked with all the other benefits oakensoul and HA builds provide that were stated in this thread makes it significantly easier to obtain. A debuff to empower won't kill the play style. It would just move it in line to what it should be, which is a gateway to the game's hard content rather than being a near identical alternative for completing the hardest content

I could see that, although I would look more at 60%, as opposed to 40%....
I also would want to see the "exploit" for want of a better term, cleared out with the Cleave - I have seen it in PVP, where people deliberately target NPC's and Pets, because the splash damage is greater on the other player, than targeting that player would have achieved.

Clean that up, and I don't really see much other issue with this style of play.

Auldwulfe

Yeah this is just silly, I've had people kill me with it before I could react and they weren't even trying to do so. I was just standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's just game design that looks like it shouldn't be interacting on that level (pvp vs pve) at all.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

That's not exactly true if part of experience is achievements for a person and having any gauge of their own skill. This is part of the reason they give out title, achievements, etc that are tied to skill level. If you then know that these things don't have the same value then it does take away from your game because this is an interconnected game where we are sometimes aware of other players levels and abilities.

It just waters down your own ability to understand your progression when the higher levels of progression are brought into the mid tier of prorgression.

I support anyone playing how they want to but the game needs to do a better job of showing progression personally and overall so that players can feel value if they want to in that respect.

I'll give a simple example. I really don't care if there's a quest out there where the player hits the I win button and the quest is completed and they are ok with that. But I do want to see a quest that's very hard, very rewarding, and that somehow can't be cheesed. I think that's fair to both who want to have different experiences respective to their desire to improve skill or just be chill.

Except titles are NOT tied to skill level, anymore -- I can make a Level 1 Silencer, or anything else I have earned .... AWA kind of killed that argument.
I'll even go further -- I buy ONE single Carry in a dungeon ... and boom, all my characters have it DONE .... end of story.
I could have, with the expansion of character slots, 20 first level characters with ANY title I have bought.

Auldwulfe

Estin · March 2023

Soarora wrote: »

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

This won't fix the problem of HA builds being way over tuned because of empower. People will just get the other mythic that has major and minor empower (if it's 40% and 80% respectively, then it's 120% together) and just use the same 1 bar setup with even more damage. Just because it has access to a second bar does not mean it's required to use it. In solo content and dungeon content, the player may see less damage, but in trial content, the player will be stronger because they would still get access to the buffs oakensoul provides. They just won't have the survivability bonuses to stand in mechanics.

If we'd really want to go with the minor and major route, then it would probably be best to give Necros the only source of major empower to make necro tanks unique again. Otherwise a nerf to empower, whether to 40, 50, or 60%, would be the best route to go with this. It would still make it viable for vet content completion to grind perfected gear, but not make it a much easier alternative for trifecta completion.

blktauna · March 2023

Very little in this game is tied to skill and can't be cheesed.

You should only worry about your own performance as everyone else's is not in your pervue.

Estin · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's a weird double edged sword unfortunately. Bring the damage down too far and it's back to being considered sub par and now you get frowned upon for lower that awesome dps and using a HA build to get it. I think it might be what ends up happening if anything but I really do wish they would just come out with better content that rewards properly for investment. This would be more fair to everyone.

I don't believe debuffing empower back down to 40% would make it subpar. It would still be much better for less skilled players. Considering how a lot of tanks complained that pugs pre oakensoul HA builds were full of low damage DDs doing only 10k DPS, they would still be very much welcomed since they should be able to do more than double that. I think the only reason people are using these types of builds is because of the recent popularity around them. Many would still continue to use them even after a nerf and will still be much better than your average PUG DD.

Soarora · March 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And yeah, for sure. I understand HA still has to do some (not all, again, high defense) mechanics but doing mechanics while doing a rotation and doing mechanics while just holding left click and occasionally other skills are very different.
And I do mostly play in closed groups. But even then, this topic isn't avoidable. Because believe it or not people really do use 1-bar HA builds in trifectas and succeed, trifectas I either see or am there for. And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

To me, achievements are individual. A 7-month godslayer prog feels more like an achievement than a 1-month prog. I’m never policing other peoples achievements, but that’s how I view my own. So I don’t mind the achievement setup as they are now. Though, to tie some things together, I don’t feel like my IR is worth a non-HA IR like I said. But it was HA IR or nothing.

Maybe the problem is more that players have normalized Vet progression as a job. 7 months spent on 1 dungeon is absurd.

I was being a bit extreme in my numbers because that wasn’t my point. My point was the value I give to progression time. The harder you work for something, the better the reward feels. 7 months on a trifecta is a very long time but also there needs to be that extreme content for people to chew on. If the game is too easy, people will complete it and leave. This is why there are casuals… you can play the game casually. No one HAS to get every achievement. I worry about accessibility up to HMs, trifectas and bonus achievements are just extra. No new mechanics.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Artim_X wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

What a lot of peeps on the forum seem to forget is that update 35 gutted damage by kicking the floor right under players who were just trying to be functional in comparison to other players. In the original update 35 PTS, my two-bar sorc that utilized skills and heavy attacks loss 4k in damage on the 3 million health dummy. This was after incorporating empower into its kit via the new dungeon set and adjusting my rotation. It was only after ZOS made a variety of changes to the empower buff, ground AOEs, etc. That I was able to get back the damage I had loss and incorporating empower is a key component to that. However, this did not make my damage go beyond what I was hitting prior to update 35. Bellow are examples of parses I did, before the changes to elemental susceptibility.

Artim_X wrote: »

Once I incorporated empower into my setup, my damage returned to what it was before the patch with some tweaks to my rotation. Both my setups can get more than 50k + on the trial dummy, but for consistency with previous patches I used the 3 million dummy where my usual goal is 30k on a DPS build.
Magsorc Parse live:

Should become a bit higher once the maelstrom staff bug is fixed.
Rotation: Buff up with Boundless Storm and Crit Surge with Twilight Tormentor activated, weapon swap immediately after casting the previous skill, maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, drop Thunderous Rage Ultimate whenever it is active, then Shock Reach, Unstable Wall of Storms, quickly weapon swap, Lightning Flood, three heavy attacks, activate either Surge or Boundless, cancel the animation of the buff used with a weapon swap, and repeat rotation without activating Reach (activated every other rotation). During the execute phase (around 20% health) replace the second heavy attack with about 4 Mages' Wrath, but if boss is melting quickly just keep spamming Wrath (1 heavy, 4 wraths, 1 heavy).
Gear: 5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Maelstrom's Perfected Lightning Staff (infused/shock enchant), and Rage of the Ursauk's jewelry (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/weapon damage enchant). 1 Mora's Whispers (Divines with Max Mag Enchant).

I absolutely love Infallible Mage and will still rock it on my mag sorc no matter what. Although buffs to it would be greatly appreciated. I use Rage of the Ursauk to get empower active throughout my rotation without having to incorporate a skill that grants empower. Before switching to Ursauk I was rocking 5 piece Kinras's.

Magplar Parse PTS:

A very casual one-bar aedric spear heavy attack meme build that I'm currently recreating on live with a new character.
Rotation: Maintain elemental susceptibility throughout fight, Crescent Sweep at start of fight then on cooldown right after a heavy attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep, Heavy Attack, Puncturing Sweep Heavy Attack, Blazing Spear, Puncturing Sweep, etc. etc. till enemy dead.
Gear: I messed around with different heavy attacks sets, but the only combination that consistently gave me the results I wanted was my absolute favorite Infallible Mage and Sergeant's Mail.
5 Infallible Mage (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), 1 Slimecraw Guise for max spell critical (Divines, light, Max Mag Enchants), Oakensoul Ring (arcane with spell damage enchant), Sergeant's Mail chest (Divines with Max Mag Enchants), and Sergeant's Mail's ring + necklace (arcane with spell damage enchant)/lightning staff (infused/shock enchant).

Artim_X wrote: »

My Magsorc parse increased after the maelstrom staff fix.

Honestly, I think this is a big issue -- I was a bar and a half user (best description that comes to mind), prior to U35 --- I mixed heavy and light attacks, as the lightning burn has always been, visually, appealing. I didn't use pets, and only worried about keeping buffs up, when they were needed .... most of the time, I used 3 to 4 skills, at most .... and hit between 40K to 60K, when I bothered on a dummy ..... and was fine

U35 hit, and I lost half my overall damage .... and I spent a while thinking about deleting my sorc, except he had my motifs and all crafting researched -- -so I stripped him naked, as I didn't feel like joining the "Endless Grind Endgame" that so many of ESO players engage in. And, he did nothing but deconstruct things.... and occasionally, go out and craft --- at which point, I went through about 30 or more characters, building to champion, and then deleting because they were not satisfying.... and gained about 700 champion points on it.......I would get them to 50, gain 20 to 50 champion points, and then toss them, to try something else ....

Now, I pay for 3 accounts, as my fiance' and stepmother also play .... but they only joined because I did, and if I left, so would they..... and yeah, 3 accounts isn't much.... but, as my Guild Wars 2, Black Desert, and 3 other accounts can attest, I was looking, HARD, for something that would satisfy

I, finally, tried the 1 bar build, exclusively because I LIKE being a mage, and burning things down with the lightning ....and coupled with age and arthritis, this became USEFUL, too......
There are a few flaws, especially with the Cleave ....[snip]

Getting upset because someone found a different way to get something is silly .... I am over 6'4" tall, I can reach the top shelf in ANY grocery store... should I cut my legs off at the knee because others can't reach what I can?

"But I had to work, getting and climbing a stepladder to get that.... and he just reached up there, and it isn't fair...."

It's also not fair for me to put the title Silencer, or ANY of my others, on a 1st level character in Belfira ....
It's not fair for someone to buy a Carry, and wear a title while not even doing the basic work of going through the dungeon..... and least MOST 1 bars are still doing it...

Finally, it's pretty obvious that most of the people complaining about 1 bars do NOT actually play one... or know how it works - there is a rotation -- just holding a button, as some have intimated, won't get you the damage ... you DO Have to use skills, and you have half the number of skills to draw off of......

On a side note, I bet if they decoupled the cleave from the empower, it would go a long way towards fixing this issue ... same as decoupling Ash Cloud from Helping Hands....... You would still get the cleave damage, but it would be unaffected by empower........

That would work just fine, too ,.....

Auldwulfe

[edited for minor baiting]

blktauna · March 2023

^^^^^^ this.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And yeah, for sure. I understand HA still has to do some (not all, again, high defense) mechanics but doing mechanics while doing a rotation and doing mechanics while just holding left click and occasionally other skills are very different.
And I do mostly play in closed groups. But even then, this topic isn't avoidable. Because believe it or not people really do use 1-bar HA builds in trifectas and succeed, trifectas I either see or am there for. And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

To me, achievements are individual. A 7-month godslayer prog feels more like an achievement than a 1-month prog. I’m never policing other peoples achievements, but that’s how I view my own. So I don’t mind the achievement setup as they are now. Though, to tie some things together, I don’t feel like my IR is worth a non-HA IR like I said. But it was HA IR or nothing.

Maybe the problem is more that players have normalized Vet progression as a job. 7 months spent on 1 dungeon is absurd.

Now now, glass houses and all that. HA and non HA builds are all valid and so is one player taking 7 months to complete any content because after all if you're saying that then you're also looking down of anyone that took 7 months to finish maelstrom. Should they have just given up if that's what made them happy?

I think if you have a group of players and they all consent to something like that then there's no issue. Now if you're bringing in players and ridiculing them for their playstyle or otherwise being negative then that's certainly an issue but I hope that's not what we're talking about here.

jaws343 · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And yeah, for sure. I understand HA still has to do some (not all, again, high defense) mechanics but doing mechanics while doing a rotation and doing mechanics while just holding left click and occasionally other skills are very different.
And I do mostly play in closed groups. But even then, this topic isn't avoidable. Because believe it or not people really do use 1-bar HA builds in trifectas and succeed, trifectas I either see or am there for. And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

To me, achievements are individual. A 7-month godslayer prog feels more like an achievement than a 1-month prog. I’m never policing other peoples achievements, but that’s how I view my own. So I don’t mind the achievement setup as they are now. Though, to tie some things together, I don’t feel like my IR is worth a non-HA IR like I said. But it was HA IR or nothing.

Maybe the problem is more that players have normalized Vet progression as a job. 7 months spent on 1 dungeon is absurd.

Now now, glass houses and all that. HA and non HA builds are all valid and so is one player taking 7 months to complete any content because after all if you're saying that then you're also looking down of anyone that took 7 months to finish maelstrom. Should they have just given up if that's what made them happy?

I think if you have a group of players and they all consent to something like that then there's no issue. Now if you're bringing in players and ridiculing them for their playstyle or otherwise being negative then that's certainly an issue but I hope that's not what we're talking about here.

I mean, that wasn't really my point. My point was saying "It took my group 7 months to do this and it only took your group 1 month" isn't a real problem to be addressed. But also, maybe content should be adjusted so that the time frames to do it are more reasonable rather than nitpicking builds that already do less damage than meta builds that actual end game groups are primarily using.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

That's not exactly true if part of experience is achievements for a person and having any gauge of their own skill. This is part of the reason they give out title, achievements, etc that are tied to skill level. If you then know that these things don't have the same value then it does take away from your game because this is an interconnected game where we are sometimes aware of other players levels and abilities.

It just waters down your own ability to understand your progression when the higher levels of progression are brought into the mid tier of prorgression.

I support anyone playing how they want to but the game needs to do a better job of showing progression personally and overall so that players can feel value if they want to in that respect.

I'll give a simple example. I really don't care if there's a quest out there where the player hits the I win button and the quest is completed and they are ok with that. But I do want to see a quest that's very hard, very rewarding, and that somehow can't be cheesed. I think that's fair to both who want to have different experiences respective to their desire to improve skill or just be chill.

Except titles are NOT tied to skill level, anymore -- I can make a Level 1 Silencer, or anything else I have earned .... AWA kind of killed that argument.
I'll even go further -- I buy ONE single Carry in a dungeon ... and boom, all my characters have it DONE .... end of story.
I could have, with the expansion of character slots, 20 first level characters with ANY title I have bought.

Auldwulfe

That's an incorrect argument. The ability to earn something and the ability to display it anywhere are two different things. You still have to earn it.

So lets say there was a title that couldn't be bought as a carry. I'm saying let's say this because currently any carry can be bought which is its own problem. Now lets say that title requires expert skill level and just can't be beat with an HA build or anything cheesy. Now imagine a person that wants to go do everything it takes and work their but off knowing that once they get it they might be one of only 27 in the game that have it. There would be people who would do it and be happy. This would take nothing from HA players as they still have plenty of content and even with AWA you would still know that the person couldn't cheese it and had to make the investment to get it.

Now you or several players might say hey good for them I could care less and that's fine because you wouldn't be the intended target nor would you be really hurt because you have all this other content that caters to what you want it to be.

See that would be a win win and that's what a good game design would look like. Currently we don't have anything like that and pretty much just throw everyone in one pot and I'm just saying I can see why that rubs some folks the wrong way.

And maybe those people need to play a different game because this isn't that but my point is that their point is just as valid as those that want HA builds.

I don't support nerfing HA builds but rather building better content to give challenge and meaningful gameplay to players of varying interest and ability.

Lixen · March 2023

I don't have an issue with damage or tankiness of HA builds as is now, but I have some concerns for the future:
1. If HA-style (with/without Oakensoul) becomes meta, i.e. most hm fights fast strats could be done with an optimized HA-build group rather than LA-weaving group, the game becomes too boring too fast for me. The current combat system (despite all the disruptive changes every patch) is the only thing keeping the game interesting for me considering all the bugs, heavy monetization, and lack of/insignificant rewards (in-game leaderboard UI is broken for over a year).
2. The easy access to the harder content has given some people (mostly newer players) confidence that they have mastered all aspects of the combat because many game mechanics for a DD could be ignored with these builds and perform pretty well in vet content. In hm content it's quite common to get a HA-build fill (not the top picks in original roster because of their lower performance) that doesn't listen to or undertand the callouts due to lack of experience causing slower clears/wipes/burden on other people.
3. I don't think many HA-build DD's will switch to LA-weaving builds unless they want to get into new dlc trifectas. There is no incentive, they can perform well enough for easier hm dlc trifectas and progressing through LA-weaving playstyle takes longer and requires much more practice. This will further shrink the high-end raiding community since newer raiders who could potentially get into latest dlc hm raids that based on recent trends require higher dps have locked themselves into a playstyle with lower damage cap. This could change if dps requirements of new raids are nerfed, but then what's the challenge and fun doing easy content...

Bushido2513 · March 2023

blktauna wrote: »

Very little in this game is tied to skill and can't be cheesed.

You should only worry about your own performance as everyone else's is not in your pervue.

Correct but I don't think others performance is the real issue, it's just the easy thing to blame vs understanding that the lack of properly rewarding content for players of all interest and levels just isn't available here.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

It's a weird double edged sword unfortunately. Bring the damage down too far and it's back to being considered sub par and now you get frowned upon for lower that awesome dps and using a HA build to get it. I think it might be what ends up happening if anything but I really do wish they would just come out with better content that rewards properly for investment. This would be more fair to everyone.

I don't believe debuffing empower back down to 40% would make it subpar. It would still be much better for less skilled players. Considering how a lot of tanks complained that pugs pre oakensoul HA builds were full of low damage DDs doing only 10k DPS, they would still be very much welcomed since they should be able to do more than double that. I think the only reason people are using these types of builds is because of the recent popularity around them. Many would still continue to use them even after a nerf and will still be much better than your average PUG DD.

Agreed to a certain degree. What I mean by sub par is more towards the people that tend to look down on anything lower than what they consider the gold standard. I honestly like the idea of an HA build doing close to or just as much damage as a non HA build because at the end of the day well designed content that engages players of all types should be the goal. If they would actually make good mechanics and story the priority as well as content for players of varying skill levels I believe the game would would be much more fun and interesting.

Dumping everyone in the same pot with not enough interesting content is what's go people all in a tizzy I think.

blktauna · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Very little in this game is tied to skill and can't be cheesed.

You should only worry about your own performance as everyone else's is not in your pervue.

Correct but I don't think others performance is the real issue, it's just the easy thing to blame vs understanding that the lack of properly rewarding content for players of all interest and levels just isn't available here.

I will very much agree to that. Sadly I don't expect any changes from the current regime.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

That's not exactly true if part of experience is achievements for a person and having any gauge of their own skill. This is part of the reason they give out title, achievements, etc that are tied to skill level. If you then know that these things don't have the same value then it does take away from your game because this is an interconnected game where we are sometimes aware of other players levels and abilities.

It just waters down your own ability to understand your progression when the higher levels of progression are brought into the mid tier of prorgression.

I support anyone playing how they want to but the game needs to do a better job of showing progression personally and overall so that players can feel value if they want to in that respect.

I'll give a simple example. I really don't care if there's a quest out there where the player hits the I win button and the quest is completed and they are ok with that. But I do want to see a quest that's very hard, very rewarding, and that somehow can't be cheesed. I think that's fair to both who want to have different experiences respective to their desire to improve skill or just be chill.

Except titles are NOT tied to skill level, anymore -- I can make a Level 1 Silencer, or anything else I have earned .... AWA kind of killed that argument.
I'll even go further -- I buy ONE single Carry in a dungeon ... and boom, all my characters have it DONE .... end of story.
I could have, with the expansion of character slots, 20 first level characters with ANY title I have bought.

Auldwulfe

That's an incorrect argument. The ability to earn something and the ability to display it anywhere are two different things. You still have to earn it.

So lets say there was a title that couldn't be bought as a carry. I'm saying let's say this because currently any carry can be bought which is its own problem. Now lets say that title requires expert skill level and just can't be beat with an HA build or anything cheesy. Now imagine a person that wants to go do everything it takes and work their but off knowing that once they get it they might be one of only 27 in the game that have it. There would be people who would do it and be happy. This would take nothing from HA players as they still have plenty of content and even with AWA you would still know that the person couldn't cheese it and had to make the investment to get it.

Now you or several players might say hey good for them I could care less and that's fine because you wouldn't be the intended target nor would you be really hurt because you have all this other content that caters to what you want it to be.

See that would be a win win and that's what a good game design would look like. Currently we don't have anything like that and pretty much just throw everyone in one pot and I'm just saying I can see why that rubs some folks the wrong way.

And maybe those people need to play a different game because this isn't that but my point is that their point is just as valid as those that want HA builds.

I don't support nerfing HA builds but rather building better content to give challenge and meaningful gameplay to players of varying interest and ability.

I understand -- and the thing is, the HA build wouldn't be in that 27, unless they seriously got really good with it, and blended it in with the other styles ..... you would still NEED some top end 2 bar players ......

But, there is also a huge difference between struggling to get 12 "proper" 2 bar players ... and knowing that if you have 6, and 6 HA people, you can still do it...... and everyone wins there.

I guess, that while I like 1 bar HA builds, I like them no better, nor worse than ANY other build .... I'll run with the guy that does only light attacks from his bow...... as long as they are doing something, they are part of the team, and I am more than happy to work with it...... I think that's why the argument grates on me..... it seems silly to want to block other people from achieving something that they found a way to do... rather than accept that more options are available.

Auldwulfe

Billium813 · March 2023

Oakensoul

I mean, let's really look at this thing:

Minor Berserk, Minor Courage, Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery, Minor Force, Minor Protection, Major Resolve, Minor Mending, Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance, Minor Heroism, Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis, and Empower.

Minor Berserk - This basically accounts for Camo Hunter and since you are losing a bar, seems fair to get this one. Combat Prayer also gives it if you have a competent Healer, but many players source it themselves since Healers can be unreliable.
Minor Courage - Not sure why this one is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's more of a set bonus item given out to the group, not sourced BY THE PLAYER.
Major Brutality, Major Sorcery, Major Prophecy, Major Savagery - These seem entirely fine. They are very common, with tons of skill sources, accessible by most classes AND sourced by the player. Seems fair that 100% uptime is given with the tradeoff that specific skills aren't needed to get these.
Minor Force - Ok, so this is basically a replacement for Barbed Trap. Typically players don't get to run Barbed Trap AND Camo Hunter... but Minor Berserk is already kinda redundant in with a good healer... Seems a bit excessive; pushing Oakensoul away from top tier, but making it stronger in the mid tier... sus on this one.
Minor Protection - Ok, so this is more of a replacement for Bound Armor, Bone Totem, Circle of Protection (for newer players), maybe Ice Fortress... even a bit redundant with Templars Spear Wall passive. I'm ok with this one. Lots of classes have access to this buff, sourced from skills they can no longer fit, and 100% uptime seems like a decent benefit here
Major Resolve - Seems like a replacement for DKs Spiked Armor, Templar Rune Focus, Lightning Form, Bone Armor, and Frost Cloak. Again, lots of classes have access to this one, usually sourced from skills that the user no longer needs to use, so it may be ok for now.
Minor Mending - Not sure why this one is here... this is rarely accessible from skill sources and even then only for NBs. It's rather rare in its availability at all, mostly being allocated to 5 piece set bonuses or limited usage. The 100% uptime here is rather strong given where players could get this otherwise.
Minor Fortitude, Minor Intellect, Minor Endurance - Again, these seem a bit out of place. These are primarily only accessible to Templar and Warden, and even there they are shared buffs, given out to the group; IOW, not sourced BY THE PLAYER for their exclusive use. This gives Oakensoul much better solo play (which is fine), while also making classes that give these buffs kind of redundant in higher level play, if many Oakensoul users are in the group. May be a step too far but it depends on the group size I think.
Minor Heroism - Not sure what this one is doing here; this is yet another "rare" buff primarily obtained from 5 piece set bonuses or Heroic Slash. I can understand that an Oakensoul Tank can now drop Heroic Slash as an upside. But Heroism is not unimportant to other roles that can run Oakensoul and those roles also get 100% uptime on this buff they otherwise would not have access to at all; even from skills! Seems like total overkill.
Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis - This is only a replacement for Trial gear set bonuses. This does sound nice given that Oakensoul is going to limit the players access to sets. In non-Trial content like Arenas and Dungeons, it will make Oakensoul more formidable, giving players access to buffs they otherwise would not have, unless they first farmed the harder Trial content first. Seems more applicable to helping out new players.
Empower - This is a rather widely accessible buff. Many classes have access to it and with only 1 bar, it makes sense that players wouldn't need to run skills to get access to it. However, looking at the access to Empower, you see that most of the time, the duration is severely limited. Oakensoul gives 100% uptime; no need to burn an action or waste time sourcing it. That being said, Empower is ONLY for HAs... so it isn't really that beneficial to players not taking advantage of it. That would kind of seem like it balances out... HOWEVER, for dedicated HA builds, its a serious advantage to have 100% uptime on +80% damage!

The take aways are:

Oakensoul is blending roles access to specific buffs here. Traditional Tank skill buffs are now going to users that may be DPS. Healer abilities are now getting access by Tanks. That can be fine, but it should be considered a positive attribute of Oakensoul. Especially when traditional DPS skill buffs are not lacking as a tradeoff and even traditional support buffs (Heroism, Intellect, Endurance) are still highly applicable to DPS roles. IOW, it's all upside.
There seemed to be a major focus on higher end gameplay with Oakensoul. Many of the buffs provided are indeed redundant in high level game play like Trials, leading to a natural ceiling in high level gameplay. But those same buffs are rather rare in the mid level gameplay, like vet dungeons that are restricted to only 4 players. I think this makes Oakensoul a natural predator in small group content while being rather redundant and mild in large group content. Something we previously saw with Ring of the Pale Order before group size was incorporated... just something to note
Looking at all the buffs available, I count at least 7-8 skills being replaced by Oakensoul; far more than a single bar can account for. Then, there are the 5 piece set bonuses thrown on top and Oakensoul seem to feel like it's a bit overloaded given it's intention.

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

ALTERNATIVELY, I could see Oakensoul going the same way as Ring of the Pale Order. Based on the group size of the player, different minor buffs could become active/de-active. Buffs like Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance & Minor Berserk make way more sense for solo or small group play, but become redundant in large groups to the point of harming support. Buffs like Minor Slayer, Minor Aegis and Minor Force make more sense to be enabled in large groups, being buffs targeted at Trial sets and streamlined min/max builds.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Lixen wrote: »

I don't have an issue with damage or tankiness of HA builds as is now, but I have some concerns for the future:
1. If HA-style (with/without Oakensoul) becomes meta, i.e. most hm fights fast strats could be done with an optimized HA-build group rather than LA-weaving group, the game becomes too boring too fast for me. The current combat system (despite all the disruptive changes every patch) is the only thing keeping the game interesting for me considering all the bugs, heavy monetization, and lack of/insignificant rewards (in-game leaderboard UI is broken for over a year).
2. The easy access to the harder content has given some people (mostly newer players) confidence that they have mastered all aspects of the combat because many game mechanics for a DD could be ignored with these builds and perform pretty well in vet content. In hm content it's quite common to get a HA-build fill (not the top picks in original roster because of their lower performance) that doesn't listen to or undertand the callouts due to lack of experience causing slower clears/wipes/burden on other people.
3. I don't think many HA-build DD's will switch to LA-weaving builds unless they want to get into new dlc trifectas. There is no incentive, they can perform well enough for easier hm dlc trifectas and progressing through LA-weaving playstyle takes longer and requires much more practice. This will further shrink the high-end raiding community since newer raiders who could potentially get into latest dlc hm raids that based on recent trends require higher dps have locked themselves into a playstyle with lower damage cap. This could change if dps requirements of new raids are nerfed, but then what's the challenge and fun doing easy content...

Thing is, you already have that... and if they don't want to learn the LA-weaving builds, they don't.... and that doesn't make the high-end raid community any bigger, either....... but, giving people a taste of a bit of what they can get past mid-point will do more to incentivize that, than watching them all go play Guild Wars 2.

I'll use myself as an example --- first started playing, got to level 10, and it said I could do Spindleclutch... so I took my happy self in my mix of Belfira Island armor, and a couple other pieces I found, and went on in..... and I fed the spiders ..... no fun.
Now, if I hadn't had someone to show me a better way, help with a couple of set items, etc... I would have capped there, pretty much.... yeah, gone back to questing, and maybe got some overland stuff.... but I would not have thought to try a dungeon again for a long time, if ever... or maybe even got bored and went off to ANY of the many other games that are far more intuitive and instructive on getting people to upper stuff.

Use the HA one bars as a staging area ... it gets people up to where they can do enough content to start getting the better armor sets.... invite them in, and then SHOW them what a proper 2 bar build can do, and looks like ..... And then let them use their current spot to progress.... if they don't, then they never would have, anyways, even if you took the HA one bar away.... they would have stagnated somewhere along the way in overland.

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513 · March 2023

blktauna wrote: »

I will very much agree to that. Sadly I don't expect any changes from the current regime.

Yeah it's clear that ZOS is going with a more is more approach. More sets, more dungeons, more zones, more crown store stuff to buy. So you can't look at them and say hey there's nothing to do or no new "stuff".

That being said, I think most vet players would trade large amounts of fluff content for something we could sink our teeth into. But that's not what brings in the money so you're right, probably not going to see that change anytime soon.

Auldwulfe · March 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I will very much agree to that. Sadly I don't expect any changes from the current regime.

Yeah it's clear that ZOS is going with a more is more approach. More sets, more dungeons, more zones, more crown store stuff to buy. So you can't look at them and say hey there's nothing to do or no new "stuff".

That being said, I think most vet players would trade large amounts of fluff content for something we could sink our teeth into. But that's not what brings in the money so you're right, probably not going to see that change anytime soon.

Thing is, looking at this discussion, and yes, I did read it all .... I think there is a missed opportunity in all this.

We all agree that a good 2 bar build will out perform a HA Oakensoul build ..... that is, pretty much, an established fact.
So, instead of making those that use that defensive, why not encourage people to use it as a staging ground.
Yeah, it will get you about 75% of the content .... but there's still other, better, stuff out there ..... then you give them a taste, and push .... because, right now, it really does sound a LOT like people upset that the new machine /tool / work technique is making the old employees upset because the new employee does just as well.....

The repeated statements of "hours practicing on a parse dummy" ..... yes, and now, there is another way.... just because one guy uses a shovel to dig a trench, does not invalidate the guy that used a back hoe..... different path, same result .....

I spent months working on 2 bar builds, and every time I got one close to successful, the quarterly combat change happened ... with a HA build, at least, right now, I have no need to grind and grind .... I can enjoy the game, and NOT approach it like a second job...... which means it's a LOT more likely I'll continue to subscribe ......

Auldwulfe

Bushido2513 · March 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

I mean, that wasn't really my point. My point was saying "It took my group 7 months to do this and it only took your group 1 month" isn't a real problem to be addressed. But also, maybe content should be adjusted so that the time frames to do it are more reasonable rather than nitpicking builds that already do less damage than meta builds that actual end game groups are primarily using.

Well I can agree that the content should be adjusted and that it's definitely a content and not a build issue. As much as we need build diversity we need content diversity to go along with it.

Lixen · March 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Thing is, you already have that... and if they don't want to learn the LA-weaving builds, they don't.... and that doesn't make the high-end raid community any bigger, either....... but, giving people a taste of a bit of what they can get past mid-point will do more to incentivize that, than watching them all go play Guild Wars 2.

I'll use myself as an example --- first started playing, got to level 10, and it said I could do Spindleclutch... so I took my happy self in my mix of Belfira Island armor, and a couple other pieces I found, and went on in..... and I fed the spiders ..... no fun.
Now, if I hadn't had someone to show me a better way, help with a couple of set items, etc... I would have capped there, pretty much.... yeah, gone back to questing, and maybe got some overland stuff.... but I would not have thought to try a dungeon again for a long time, if ever... or maybe even got bored and went off to ANY of the many other games that are far more intuitive and instructive on getting people to upper stuff.

Use the HA one bars as a staging area ... it gets people up to where they can do enough content to start getting the better armor sets.... invite them in, and then SHOW them what a proper 2 bar build can do, and looks like ..... And then let them use their current spot to progress.... if they don't, then they never would have, anyways, even if you took the HA one bar away.... they would have stagnated somewhere along the way in overland.

Auldwulfe

I don't have an issue with easy entry to difficult content. there is a big difficulty jump in this game from overland to normal/vet/vet hm dungeon/trials, and a smoother transition would've helped, but I don't think bumping the casual players with an I-Win-Button to give them a taste is healthy in the long run.
I don't have an issue with the power level either. I think increasing the damage cap of HA-builds based on skill (not something that currently exists in the game and not based on proc/mythic/cp) helps the divide on this issue. Currently it's basically one best performing setup for every situation (you may change couple of skills and one monster set piece in different raids/pulls or switch med body to light body, but that's it) and mastering it takes few minutes. Making HA-build more powerful with complexity (not necessarily with more button mashing, can move to a good 2-bar HA setup) makes them comparable with LA-weaving builds in content and more rewarding for the players. Increasing the skill and damage cap of HA builds also makes it easier to transition to LA-weaving builds and makes them less boring for someone like me who has been playing and enjoying LA-weaving builds.
I have an oakensorc and sometimes use it for weekly arenas but I don't play it for majority of the content.

maxjapank · March 2023

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Billium813 · March 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

My conclusion:

I think Oakensoul should have Minor Heroism, Minor Mending, Minor Courage removed. They are not generally sourced through skills, are not generally accessible to multiple classes, and are commonly sourced from group shared buffs. I would also advocate for Minor Fortitude/Intellect/Endurance to be removed too as I think it hurts support roles as well as being minor buffs not readily accessible by most classes, for individual player usage; they are traditionally group buffs.
Also, I think Empower should either be removed from Oakensoul or reduced to +40%. The 100% uptime is exceedingly strong for those builds that can take advantage of it. Other build using Oakensoul see no benefit at all from Empower, so it's really a niche buff.

How about, "No, thank you."? Nothing is keeping you from playing how you want to. So how about letting others enjoy content in their own ways.

Your reply is totally dismissive and holds no substance. Balance is important in the game. Lots of players enjoy totally OP items, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be balanced appropriately to create a fair, multiplayer environment.

Bushido2513 · March 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

So, instead of making those that use that defensive, why not encourage people to use it as a staging ground.
Yeah, it will get you about 75% of the content .... but there's still other, better, stuff out there ..... then you give them a taste, and push

Auldwulfe

Well I certainly vote for content that give a variety of possibilities to players of varying skill. To what degree is a good split I can't tell you because population varies but certainly we need content geared specifically towards those that want to push the bar and right now there's just not enough of it. But as it was pointed out I don't know if we'll ever get that because it would require ZOS going down a path they don't seem interested in at the moment.

Auldwulfe wrote: »

right now, it really does sound a LOT like people upset that the new machine /tool / work technique is making the old employees upset because the new employee does just as well.....

The repeated statements of "hours practicing on a parse dummy" ..... yes, and now, there is another way.... just because one guy uses a shovel to dig a trench, does not invalidate the guy that used a back hoe..... different path, same result .....

Auldwulfe

So I'm pretty sure this is not what people are upset about exactly, it's more like this. I don't care if someone comes in and does the same job with a new tool. What I do care about is you giving me a new level that I can rise to so that I can feel progression.

Right now ZOS is handing out cool new tools but leaving us all to do the same job with no way to go farther up and seperate ourselves. You will always have the guy that is comfy in his position that he knows and really doesn't care about moving up. I'm totally ok with that guy and I have no problem but when you tell me hey Bush you're at the same place as this guy and I don't have any way for you to enjoy moving up the ladder well then I'm kinda not happy.

So what's going on here is people are focusing on the other employee using the new tool and not just understanding that hey the company structure isn't going to change and I will have to either live with it or move along.

Some in here are at least just making their feelings known and that's fine because maybe things will change but some in here are using it as an opportunity to push their agenda on the co worker or even the company in a less than positive way and that's not really called for or even worth anyone's time really.