Heavy Attack Builds

Auldwulfe

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

I'll bring it back again - I am a combat veteran, and in my mid-50's for age --- between some nerve damage, and age, I could NOT get my 2 bar LA attacks over 20K, at first .... so I was going to quit, along with the two other people who's accounts I also pay for ..... as both of them have arthritis, as well.

It was suggested that I try the one bar sorc for a bit, to see if it helped -- and yes, it did --- and I found that one of my guilds has several people, vets like me, who use it for similar reasons..... plus, once I got a feel for it, I was able to redo my 2 bar builds and get up into the mid 50k range..... because it gave me time to learn and understand how things worked together.

This sounds a LOT like the thing I saw in WOW -- you couldn't join a group without X set from this specific dungeon..... which is the dungeon that you were trying to get into a group for......

Or, in other words, Gatekeeping people from Cyrodiil until they have sets you can only get in Cyrodiil, and also at least level 7 in alliance war .... which they can't get unless you let them in.

I have found that once people learn some basic flow with Oakensoul, they tend to start building things without it, as they want more skills ..... And I also found that it doesn't hurt anyone's gameplay, no matter what build a person uses, unless they just don't do well ... and yeah, as a Tank, I have carried groups in random pugs, because they didn't know what to expect .... it happens. They learn, and everyone has fun...

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

Let people play the way they want.... if, as is being put here, it TOTALLY destroys their ability to learn anything else (have yet to see that happen, but.....), then that is THEIR problem.... their account.... their characters.

Auldwulfe

Soarora

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

bachpain

Schared wrote: »

Hello-Hello Reader,
As most of you average pts-forum visitors likely already know the current game features a build pairing Storm-Master, Seargents-Mail and Oakensoul to great affect.
The damage numbers reached by said build make groups that fully commit to stacking that setup 8 times competetive with damage reached by some of the best players still playing eso.
Now the generally get outperformed by classic setups but the difference in setups has become so close that it is negletible. To illustrate if the best parse of a raid would be 80.000~ on a bossfight that assumes simple mechanics such as Asylum Sanctorium the heavy attack build would performwithin the 75-78k range. Now generally I have the "play as you like attitude" however these builds are something else.
Understand that the top performer puts his heart and soul/passion into the game, learns rotations and has taken time to end up where he is. During the actual combat he has a perfect amount of actions per second while the heavy attack build hits 1 button.
And even if the damage would not be as competetive one mayor issue is the tankyness of the build the buffs granted give all DD players resilience that rivals a tank. Mayor buffs provide flat damage negation to a point where mechanics can be ignored - the same crititzism people brought up towards groups that dealt to much damage skipping mechanics in the past.
Tri-Focus turns all that single target into an aoe that scales with an enemies hitbox which is overpowered in pve but provides a set of new issues in pvp aswell - while the actual attack is adjusted taking the primary targets resistances into account enemies hit by the inbuild tri-focus cleave are not adjusted properly.
In short if you ever wonder why you get oneshot by a heavy attack in pvp - it is most likely someone heavy attacking a nearby guard npc - whose damage ends up cleaving you.

Alas this post will likely already be flagged for explaining how to exploit instead of being read and taken into consideration - so I may aswell share the setup itself as I believe that shock-and-awe strategies is the only way to actualy reach the dev team as normal and conservative posts are ignored, banned and censored.

While I appreciate the devs making raids easier over time - easier should not mean the entire removal of requirement. Accessibility is understandable but this is taken to a point where the game tries to include people without mouse, controller and keyboard.


Disclaimer: Iam aware that the best parses are achieved with different setups/classes - just know that you are in the 1% most likely and a core point of the argument is not infact the score but the ease that comes with the provided tankiness. Though the current top performing builds already start to look like one-bar-oakensoul builds as their main damage lies within 2 channeled abilities.

I guess this is just me venting about the direction of the game, as I always have - because it appears to me as if the new direction is to turn ESO into Amazons own New World with 3 abilities on your bar and the slowest combat imaginable.

Cheers~

Could you please post some references for these claims. I have watched streamers run prog groups in content both traditional teams and teams that are using the HA build mentioned in your post. Believe me the DPS numbers you are quoting are nowhere near close. The optimized groups using better sets, 2 bars, utilizing group buffs and synergies are EASILY outpacing the damage almost twofold. Content isn't a parse dummy.

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

RevJJ

I’ve seen Godslayer being used as an argument to say that HA builds can do any content now. It has already been mentioned a few times that this is older content which is less challenging than the latest trials. When I look at the logs that were posted in this topic, I also notice a few other things.

1) Almost none of the DPS have a one bar setup that they use the whole trial. You can tell from the skills they’ve used and the sets they’ve used. One player switched from Z’enkosh to a HA build. To me, that suggests that these are players who know the content well and know what to use for which fight, meaning that they have put in time and effort to learn the fights.

2) There is a RoJo brittleden in the group boosting everyone’s damage. While that is also a heavy attack build, it’s not a one bar one. But having that in the group means there will be two healers that can focus more on actual healing than boosting DPS. Once again this suggests to me that this is a group that knows exactly what they are doing.

Yes, most of the DPS were Oakensoul sorcs. But no, that does not mean that just anyone can go in there with an Oakensorc and get Godslayer. If you truly think that is the case please drop me a PM. I play on PC/NA and would love to get Godslayer (for the statues because the mount is uglyyyyy). Worst case scenario, you get proven wrong. Best case, you get proven right and I get Godslayer and everyone wins

Lastly, one bar Oakensoul builds being able to do high damage on the mid tier is exactly what ZOS was aiming for. You can do high damage but in a lot of cases cannot burn through mechanics. And that’s what the devs want - why do you think so many bosses have invulnerability phases? ZOS wants players to do the mechanics instead of burning through and skipping them.

Dagoth_Rac

You can learn to drive in less time with an automatic transmission. If you have never driven before, you can really quickly get on a racetrack and drive 100mph using an automatic. But it is a lot harder to reach that speed for the first time with a manual transmission. The person driving a manual will work harder to drive the same speed for the first time as a person driving an automatic. But so what? That is kind of the point. Whether it is driving to the grocery store or driving on the autobahn, an automatic will be easier, but the manual, while more difficult, will offer more control, engagement, fun, and higher maximum speeds.

It seems like a fair trade off. And I would say HA build versus LA build is the same. And asking to nerf HA build is like asking to nerf automatic transmissions. I guess that will force people to "git gud" if they want to get on the autobahn. And then everyone on the autobahn can enjoy it more, knowing the other drivers are driving the "right" way like you.

Tannus15

There are several things in this thread I think worth addressing.

The first is vAS HM which i think people need to realise is a special case. As a fight you get almost none of the usual trial buffs from supports that oakensoul grants. This means it over performs there compared to other trials.

The second is the high levels of defence and survivability granted by oakensoul. While this is valid, I feel it's worth pointing out that the reason that 2 bar setups are such glass cannons is because they sacrifice literally everything in order to get that higher dps.

You can either drop some damage for sustain and run 2 stat food or some max resource for health or swap some attributes for max health

my "standard" setup. 112k parse

high health setup (attribues 30 health, 34 mag).
ring of markyn for +2314 armour
109k parse

that's a 3k dps loss to gain 5k max health and 2.3k resists. i can easily go much further and still hit harder than an oakensoul build, and this is on a sorc, which i would claim is the hardest class to work with due to their lack of bar space.

I swapped slimecraw light for slimecraw heavy with a max health enchant and dropped to 108k dps. That's 28k max health and an extra 1200 resists.

There are so many options. instead of messing with attributes i could go max health and regen food.
i could run death dealers fete and get well over 30k max health.

I'm not saying that oakensoul isn't easier than these options, but there is for sure a middle ground between max dps builds and oakensoul where a decent player will have more dps, more options and more utility as well as a lot of the same defensive stats and buffs.

Soarora

Tannus15 wrote: »

There are several things in this thread I think worth addressing.

The first is vAS HM which i think people need to realise is a special case. As a fight you get almost none of the usual trial buffs from supports that oakensoul grants. This means it over performs there compared to other trials.

The second is the high levels of defence and survivability granted by oakensoul. While this is valid, I feel it's worth pointing out that the reason that 2 bar setups are such glass cannons is because they sacrifice literally everything in order to get that higher dps.

You can either drop some damage for sustain and run 2 stat food or some max resource for health or swap some attributes for max health

my "standard" setup. 112k parse

high health setup (attribues 30 health, 34 mag).
ring of markyn for +2314 armour
109k parse

that's a 3k dps loss to gain 5k max health and 2.3k resists. i can easily go much further and still hit harder than an oakensoul build, and this is on a sorc, which i would claim is the hardest class to work with due to their lack of bar space.

I swapped slimecraw light for slimecraw heavy with a max health enchant and dropped to 108k dps. That's 28k max health and an extra 1200 resists.

There are so many options. instead of messing with attributes i could go max health and regen food.
i could run death dealers fete and get well over 30k max health.

I'm not saying that oakensoul isn't easier than these options, but there is for sure a middle ground between max dps builds and oakensoul where a decent player will have more dps, more options and more utility as well as a lot of the same defensive stats and buffs.

Oakensoul's use in AS comes down to three parts: what you mentioned about buffs dropped from supports, cleave, and survivability.
Thank you for addressing the defensive buff point so well. I will say though that minor protection and major resolve are available to 2-bar DPS, like you said they just aren't run because it sacrifices dps. Also supports can give minor protection and major resolve, though major resolve is the only one that's really given often and that's only by a warden. Minor aegis, however, is only available to tanks and healers through 5pc trial sets. So, I would argue that if one of the defensive bonuses were dropped, it should be minor aegis. Because my understanding of oakensoul is that it's supposed to be giving buffs to save on barspace, not give buffs that are unavailable through buff skills. Since you talk a lot about resistances, if 3 defensive buffs is really necessary on oakensoul maybe it should be minor resolve instead. Minor resolve is another buff that's given by supports like minor protection and major resolve and also available to 2-bar dps.

Amottica

axi wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

One button builds get ~80k compared to a 120k+ on a two bar build. Difference is either you hold down one button for said 80k or you toggle your 120k macro on/off.

First of all one bar heavy attack builds can get up to over 100k not 80k. 80-83k is a DPS

Please provide a video of this.

Thank you.

Video provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTz8EbHOaU

You're welcome.

Good video. If on PC it would be good to see the breakdown of the damage and know what gear you are wearing to see if the HA build is the culprit or if there is another factor playing a larger role as pet sorcs have a different advantage over some classes with a HA build, iirc.

Similarly, how does this play out with other classes and even the other two staves, I mean fire staff.

Hotdog_23

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

Meiox

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

Its allways the same, people call for nerfs for classes they don't play, or they want nerfs for builds they don't wanna use.
Its everytime just about to make the stuff better they are using and make the stuff worse they are not using.

And they don't care about if it have effects on other areas in the game, they just think about the area they are playing (pvp, endgame raids, veteran, overland)

Artim_X

I'm not good at incorporating light attacks into my playstyle, so I have been playing some variant of a heavy attack setup since the early days of vMA.

My mag sorc utilizes every single skill in the storm calling skill-line, twilight when in groups, two damage shields when solo, and all the destruction staff skills with exception to force shock and weakness to elements. The idea behind my playstyle was to use all the skills possible related to shock damage and create a shock mage that was enjoyable for me to play. Sure, I'll use one fire staff for more organized groups, but mostly I'll go double lightning for flavor.

I grinded as best as I could before smart loot for all the gear relevant to my playstyle. The OG Maelstrom Fire/Lightning staves that increases heavy attack damage on those affected by Wall of Elements. Infallible Aether jewelry and lightning staff (the weapon grind was insanely stressful, even with a loot notifier add-on). When all was said and done, I had a play how I want build that could get the job done (upper midtier).

So many patches have come and gone that devastated my damage, forcing me to change my mundus, gear my CP, my traits, my monster sets, etc. Just to get back some semblance of my lost power. Spoiler alert, my damage still isn't as good as it was during Summerset, but still better than most. Had to incorporate empower to get back some lost power and did so by farming a new 5 piece set that grants empower so that my rotation and skills wouldn't be affected.

Now moving on to the one-bar shenanigans. I've always wanted to play a templar, but no matter what I did on the PTS, I couldn't make it feel like it's own thing that differed from my sorc. Once Oakensoul was introduced, I knew that some fun could be had, but I waited for it to be nerfed so I wouldn't set myself up for disappointment. Once it was nerfed, I created a very memeish aedric spear heavy attack build on the pts that utilized all the aedric spear skills that did less damage than my mag sorc (two-bar), but still was in the midtier range of damage. So I recreated the build on live and have been having a blast with it.

The point I'm trying to make is that heavy attacking as a playstyle has always existed. Sone players actually chose to only utilize one-bar long before Oakensoul was a thing, which severely hindered their potential and survivability. The concept of a mythic that opens up new playstyle opportunities that might not have properly existed before it is fantastic. I will still be a two-bar magsorc for the master of all things lightning flavor of that playstyle, but I love that I can have a simple one-bar templar that is almost as good as my sorc while still having the relevant buffs active to ensure that they aren't made of paper.

katorga

Why does it matter how other players play and enjoy the game, especially in PVE of all places?

Auldwulfe

That's also a thing -- I had one bar characters BEFORE Oakensoul even existed, and I only went and got it about 6 weeks ago, to try it out.
I was using Sergeant's Mail before this.... and I can't see how this is ANY different than the people who ran around with Relequin's and Pillars of Nirn.... or the very large number of people who have paid me to craft Order's Wrath, so they can work on maximizing crit chances, etc.....

In the end, EVERY character is primarily a 3 to 4 button play --- your spammables and execute ..... if you choose to micromanage your buffs, you can go 2 bar, and you can be in total control -- and maximize your potential, or you can relax, give up some of that control, and let a mythic do it, but lose a good chunk of flexibility.

You won't get as high as the micro-management control players... but you will get good enough to see a solid chunk of the game, and it's a solid learning step.

Personally, again, I don't care how anyone else plays --- I play to have fun with MY characters and accounts .... I don't use add ons, because I don't like the idea of letting 3rd party software into my game. But Oakensoul is definitely NO DIFFERENT than the add ons that tell you when to block, when to roll dodge, etc. I mean, these people need to memorize EVERY rotation, EVERY mechanic...... they need to sweat and have bleeding fingers, or I'm justing going to stamp my feet......

I also don't give into the false argument that it is about "helping".... etc. That's nothing more than wrapping up criticism in PC language. And I am NOT baiting, or targeting any one argument .... People should be able to play a game that they pay for, the way they want ..... it does NOT take anything away from my playstyle that some people use one bar / 2 bar / Oakensoul Werewolves... and so on....

They play their game, and I enjoy my area of it..... In my opinion, the complaints about this play style, or that play style always come across as jealousy..... it reminds me of little kids arguing because "his cookie looks bigger than mine"...... rather than just being happy they have a cookie for themselves.

All the Oakensoul single bar builds has done is allow for people that have busy outside lives to have a way to do mid-tier play... and that's a good thing, many of these people are the same people that have jobs, and subscribe to the game to relax, etc..... and who just happen to be putting in the money that pays for the servers, and the developers. It doesn't hurt anyone else's way of playing... I mean, the mobs do respawn..... and the stealth gank NB is still the PVP king.... and, arguably, it helps everyone else, because as long as there is a cash flow, there will be a game for people to complain about......

Let people play the way they want.... if they are happy, then be happy for them..... let them have their fun.
I have known a LOT of people that learned on automatic, but eventually did take the time to learn manual, for when it was better .... it's their choice, if they are happy driving an automatic, then let them be happy in their space..... worry about your own lane, and where your car is going.

Auldwulfe

tincanman

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Just don’t understand the hate of late for Heavy attack builds. They have been around for years, sure they are in the best spot now then they have ever been. It takes nothing from you or anyone else. Be happy for your fellow player that can now achieve content where they could not before or at least have more fun doing it than before, rather than upset at how someone else is playing. For reference, I play all builds and classes.

Stay safe

I think it's coming from some (but not all) mid-tier players who, having struggled to attain competence but are not yet at the limits of what's possible, have found similar results with an 'easier' HA setup. It would seem that in an effort to make their efforts more meaningful, some mid-tier players want to destroy the transient, subjective parity they experience between their useage of 2-bar builds and HA builds and the most expedient way to do this for them seems to be to call for nerfs of the HA builds or to make LA-weaving more powerful.

tincanman

For 'end-game' players - those who are at their maximum potential and comfortable with what they can do, the HA builds are an interesting diversion at best. I think the higher parses showing the real and significant differences between the superior 2-bar and inferior HA builds are mainly coming from this demographic. They too, with their greater experience of trials and group formation, seem to be the ones showing older trial achievements with some HA build use (but, not exclusively so as logs show).

For comparison, my dad (80yrs) uses 'THE' HA build and has found it the first build he can actually do some damage with. I can assure you he's not getting 100k out of it - probably nearer 60k v's the trial dummy and ~30k in 'real' content. I expect his experience is replicated by many of those who are older or have infirmities that make using traditional 2-bar builds (which they use, too, just not very effectively) difficult. When he is able to play he is enjoying this build immensely.

I'd ask him to post because he sometimes feels up to testing stuff but he isn't feeling too great right now. But I do think we need to hear more from this demographic of eso players whom zos have helped and enabled so successfully with this particular iteration of HA builds to counter the HA-build negativity with more realistic, significantly lower damage numbers than many mid-high tier players are reporting.

Estin

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

jaws343

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

But they are not a free trifecta giver. You still have to know the mechanics and be able to use the build effectively. Any trifecta Youtube posts right now are from full, experienced groups, who already sleepwalk through these trials. Your average joe, 80K max dps player, is still not going to get any of these achievements without being carried if they don't know the mechanics, or are only parsing on a dummy.

Estin

jaws343 wrote: »

But they are not a free trifecta giver. You still have to know the mechanics and be able to use the build effectively. Any trifecta Youtube posts right now are from full, experienced groups, who already sleepwalk through these trials. Your average joe, 80K max dps player, is still not going to get any of these achievements without being carried if they don't know the mechanics, or are only parsing on a dummy.

The damage alone, no, you're right with that, but stacked with all the other benefits oakensoul and HA builds provide that were stated in this thread makes it significantly easier to obtain. A debuff to empower won't kill the play style. It would just move it in line to what it should be, which is a gateway to the game's hard content rather than being a near identical alternative for completing the hardest content

Auldwulfe

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

But they are not a free trifecta giver. You still have to know the mechanics and be able to use the build effectively. Any trifecta Youtube posts right now are from full, experienced groups, who already sleepwalk through these trials. Your average joe, 80K max dps player, is still not going to get any of these achievements without being carried if they don't know the mechanics, or are only parsing on a dummy.

The damage alone, no, you're right with that, but stacked with all the other benefits oakensoul and HA builds provide that were stated in this thread makes it significantly easier to obtain. A debuff to empower won't kill the play style. It would just move it in line to what it should be, which is a gateway to the game's hard content rather than being a near identical alternative for completing the hardest content

I could see that, although I would look more at 60%, as opposed to 40%....
I also would want to see the "exploit" for want of a better term, cleared out with the Cleave - I have seen it in PVP, where people deliberately target NPC's and Pets, because the splash damage is greater on the other player, than targeting that player would have achieved.

Clean that up, and I don't really see much other issue with this style of play.

Auldwulfe

Billium813

Watching a 1 bar, HA build put up 100k DPS, with 100% splash damage in a 5m AOE (so even ads aren't an issue), attacking from 28m away from danger, parsing 3 skills at 1/4 the speed of a conventional 2 bar build... and never once see any resource dip below 90%. I guess that leaves plenty for dodge rolls, blocking like a tank, and sprint kiting bosses around the arena!

Soarora

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

Billium813

Soarora wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

Just remove Empower from Oakensoul entirely.

2 bar HA builds can spend their time juggling Empower. 1 bar HA builds shouldnt have access to something that should be sourced from skills anyway.

EDIT: I know that the whole point of Oakensoul is to get access to buffs that would otherwise be sourced from skills, but with 100% uptime on everything, it needs to be scaled back IMO. Oakensoul just gives too much.

Bushido2513

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Soarora

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

Just remove Empower from Oakensoul entirely.

2 bar HA builds can spend their time juggling Empower. 1 bar HA builds shouldnt have access to something that should be sourced from skills anyway.

The entire point of Oakensoul is to give buffs sourced from skills. I don’t think its fair to completely obliterate 1-bar HA, but I don’t think it’s fair to be in endgame either. It should still be a build that works at all, at minimum for normal trials (but even vet would be good… because mechanics don’t exist in normal) so people can get gear they may need for future builds and see content. If empower were removed from oakensoul, there would have to at least be a relatively long (not Mages Guild passive) lasting global skill for empower in my opinion.

Bushido2513

bachpain wrote: »

The idea of SOME being able to do content with a build like stated above impacts you and me zero unless we want it to. I would rather see HA builds like stated above (with more flavor and options) than see LA weaving and damage as a whole nerfed into oblivion. Let people have fun. I have played with PLENTY of super high DPS players to see how many different mechanics, and paths they take to skip and cheese things in the game. Why shoot at people who want to play that style? ESO is a game and one whose mantra has always been, "Play it your way". What others do does not change me in the least.

That's not exactly true if part of experience is achievements for a person and having any gauge of their own skill. This is part of the reason they give out title, achievements, etc that are tied to skill level. If you then know that these things don't have the same value then it does take away from your game because this is an interconnected game where we are sometimes aware of other players levels and abilities.

It just waters down your own ability to understand your progression when the higher levels of progression are brought into the mid tier of prorgression.

I support anyone playing how they want to but the game needs to do a better job of showing progression personally and overall so that players can feel value if they want to in that respect.

I'll give a simple example. I really don't care if there's a quest out there where the player hits the I win button and the quest is completed and they are ok with that. But I do want to see a quest that's very hard, very rewarding, and that somehow can't be cheesed. I think that's fair to both who want to have different experiences respective to their desire to improve skill or just be chill.

Billium813

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

Honestly, I believe the issue with HA builds is less because of the sets used or the other buffs oakensoul provides and more because of the changes to empower with U35. The 80% damage boost is rather over tuned in my opinion. HA Builds can still be viable if empower was reverted back to 40%, and to keep it in line with the changes they wanted, it could still only provide the buff to HAs rather than making a full revert to pre U35 empower. It wouldn't kill HA builds and would still make them viable in harder content, but it won't make them a free Trifecta giver.

I have a thought… what about major and minor empower. Give Oakensoul minor empower so 1-bar HA has to use 2 HA 5pc. Put major and minor empower on a new mythic (so it can’t be used with oakensoul) that does not limit barswapping so that a 2-bar HA is able to use other 5pcs and becomes the endgame version of a HA build. I mean HA in of itself I don’t see literally any issue with, it’s just HA instead of spammable on paper. I really think 2-bar HA should actually be buffed. It’s 1-bar HA specifically that’s questionable to me.

Just remove Empower from Oakensoul entirely.

2 bar HA builds can spend their time juggling Empower. 1 bar HA builds shouldnt have access to something that should be sourced from skills anyway.

The entire point of Oakensoul is to give buffs sourced from skills. I don’t think its fair to completely obliterate 1-bar HA, but I don’t think it’s fair to be in endgame either. It should still be a build that works at all, at minimum for normal trials so people can get gear they may need for future builds and see content. If empower were removed from oakensoul, there would have to at least be a relatively long (not Mages Guild passive) lasting global skill for empower in my opinion.

ya, after I said that I added an edit.

I know the whole point of Oakensoul is to give access to buffs that otherwise would be sourced from skills... but that sentiment doesn't seem to be also including the 100% uptime as any kind of benefit! I think Oakensoul gives too much; more than any 2 bars could hope to provide! AND, it does it with perfect uptime. That has to count for something. The original design of Oakensoul was treating the "you can only use 1 bar" as a downside... but players aren't treating that as a downside! In fact, it's all upside when you look at players not being able to successfully manage 2 bars! So tell me, what IS the downside of Oakensoul? Honestly.

What does it say that the notion of removing 1 buff from 1 mythic "completely obliterates" the viability of 1-bar HA builds?

Bushido2513

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

You can learn to drive in less time with an automatic transmission. If you have never driven before, you can really quickly get on a racetrack and drive 100mph using an automatic. But it is a lot harder to reach that speed for the first time with a manual transmission. The person driving a manual will work harder to drive the same speed for the first time as a person driving an automatic. But so what? That is kind of the point. Whether it is driving to the grocery store or driving on the autobahn, an automatic will be easier, but the manual, while more difficult, will offer more control, engagement, fun, and higher maximum speeds.

It seems like a fair trade off. And I would say HA build versus LA build is the same. And asking to nerf HA build is like asking to nerf automatic transmissions. I guess that will force people to "git gud" if they want to get on the autobahn. And then everyone on the autobahn can enjoy it more, knowing the other drivers are driving the "right" way like you.

This example is a bit flawed. The problem is that regardless of transmission and skill level everyone is getting first place. I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to race and that sometimes you shouldn't be able to race on the same track and still win with either. That's all fine and good. But people need to acknowledge that if we don't have a system to allow people who want to feel that sense of progression from learning when to shift, double clutch, etc, then we're technically still having a group out there who isn't being as satisfied as they could be.

And this isn't the holy grail of game design by any factor, just that ZOS is taking the easy route and throwing all the cars on the same track and saying you're all Schumacher's now. While this isn't wrong people should still see how this might make people who enjoy putting in work feel a bit left out in the cold.

Bushido2513

katorga wrote: »

Why does it matter how other players play and enjoy the game, especially in PVE of all places?

Because it's a shared gaming system of challenges and rewards that doesn't give a good spectrum between the two. Zos is making a play for ease of access which is good but when not implemented well your player who came for a challenge will of course start to feel left out in the cold. Yes they can still go solo or group up with people that want the same challenge but what's the point if the reward is something anyone can have?

Again I'm not saying taking things away from heavy attack builds. I don't really care if they can obliterate bosses. I'm saying there needs to be better game design to accommodate those that want a challenge and a reward system worth of that challenge and one that can't be cheesed.

Bushido2513

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Let people play the way they want.... if they are happy, then be happy for them..... let them have their fun.
I have known a LOT of people that learned on automatic, but eventually did take the time to learn manual, for when it was better .... it's their choice, if they are happy driving an automatic, then let them be happy in their space..... worry about your own lane, and where your car is going.

Auldwulfe

Totally agree but if we leave out people that want to have a challenging world then we still have a fair issues there. I think people don't want to hate exactly on HA builds but more that there's no place to go at this point where one isn't just as viable as a player that has honed their skill.

I think the primary ESO world should be shareable content that works for everyone so that anyone can have fun and some sense of progression but the game also does need challenging content that's worth something for those who want to go the extra extra mile.

Soarora

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

Maybe the question should be, why does this bother a person so much? Are you paying for their accounts?
I, seriously, only have enough energy to live my own life.... I can't imagine how people get the energy to try and live other people's lives for them.

I've explained why it bothers me so much before so I will do it again. Objectively, its painful to see something that is an easy build pull off the same thing as a more difficult build. And I understand how people wish for ease of access into content, in fact I even believe recent trial HMs have been TOO hard. But I think there's a balance. And again, this balance is NOT, it is NOT, to make HA unable to complete content, but I'd be happier if it weren't as easy as it is currently from a balancing standpoint. I've actually found 2-bar HA to be pretty difficult and rather unique to that of 2-bar LA, which is why I'm advocating here that 2-bar HA SHOULD be viable. 1-bar HA can be a stepping stone to 2-bar, or a place that people can stop at, maybe the vet level, with 2-bar HA being viable for anything. Objectively, I think that's way more balanced.
I think that also addresses what someone else has mentioned here about HA being the "oh go do this build to do endgame" suggestion without any progression from that point.
In regards to the survivability, I have personal bias from experience. With people pulling before me in vet dlc content. Often people just die when they do that but the oakensoul survivability is so high they literally just don't. I've also done AS with a HA team. And although it made my job significantly easier as a healer... it made my job significantly easier. I feel like my IR isn't at the same value as someone who healed a non-oakensoul IR.
Finally, for some reason every HA I've seen stands behind me when I'm healing no matter if there's a mechanic that forces everyone to stack or not. This is not exclusive to HA but again, they're able to get away with it due to the defensive buffs.
Defense that is literally not obtainable in a viable way except you're a tank or an oakensoul user. And again, to be clear, I do not want oakensoul to lose all the defensive buffs. Just for it to be at the same level as a fully self-buffed DPS.
What I also have personal bias in is that I HAVE worked REALLY hard to get dps from like 52k to 100k, and people are able to just instantly get 80k with a good build and move up to 100k+. But I do not want HA as a whole to be nerfed damage-wise. Please for the love of everything don't take that from this, but it is a bias.

There ya go, my reasons. Not because I think people need to get good, not because I want people to stay down so I can sell carries, and not because I think that HA doesn't deserve to be good. I don't mind if people pick apart all of this and say I'm biased so my opinion shouldn't matter. I don't care if people disagree. All I ask is that people actually read and understand what I'm saying rather than pull part of my argument and strawman it and make assumptions about me. Because that's what this thread has felt like so far.

For what it's worth I don't exactly agree but I do understand. It's hard to stand out if everyone is getting a gold star just for showing up. It becomes a situation of what is even the point if the challenge is mostly only self imposed.

Though I will say that there's also such a thing as playing with groups of people that believe as you do. It's the same thing I used to say to people who would think someone like you is overboard. Just find a group that wants to play in a similar way to you.

I mean yes I get it that zos could modify these things and I think they will to some degree but it's clear that they also want to make the game ez mode for those that want easy mode and who will pay for the experience.

I think one of the real issues is that they haven't found a way to reward good players that can't be done as a carry. Then good players would actually have a way to show off an achievement that can only be gotten through hard work. More of those would be cool I think.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And yeah, for sure. I understand HA still has to do some (not all, again, high defense) mechanics but doing mechanics while doing a rotation and doing mechanics while just holding left click and occasionally other skills are very different.
And I do mostly play in closed groups. But even then, this topic isn't avoidable. Because believe it or not people really do use 1-bar HA builds in trifectas and succeed, trifectas I either see or am there for. And I do still like to meet new people in pugs, I just wish it wasn’t so high of a probability that said pug will be a high defense HA build. It’s rather common in random vet. Their damage is fine in most cases, their attitude tends to not be.

To me, achievements are individual. A 7-month godslayer prog feels more like an achievement than a 1-month prog. I’m never policing other peoples achievements, but that’s how I view my own. So I don’t mind the achievement setup as they are now. Though, to tie some things together, I don’t feel like my IR is worth a non-HA IR like I said. But it was HA IR or nothing.