Heavy Attack Builds

Schared

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Very nice art! But unfortunately not representative of what is discussed - Iam aware of the prominent position that Single-Target damage takes in alot of these arguments but I encourage you to read both the initial post and some responses further to properly delve into the topic as damage is only a minor part of my disdain for the current state.

Schared

Tannus15 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

I guess all you need is Lightning Staff, Vigor, Oaken, and dodge rolls to complete all the game has to offer. Sad really.

Give it a go. Please. I'd love to see it.

If you love to see it - you ost likely will only have to wait for patchend as most people tend to upload their achievements once a cicle has concluded. But even now I believe you may be able to find what you are looking for.

Schared

gariondavey wrote: »

At the end of the day 2 bar builds are superior to 1 bar builds. By a significant margin.
1 bar builds help raise the floor.
I don't understand the anger in this thread from the op.

I dont understand why most people are bogged down in their narrative that Iam either some devil that wants to keep people down and gatekeep or am literally fuming with anger.
Iam simply presenting my opinion and dissaproval backed up with other peoples ideas and data.

I believe you may have fallen for the classic folly of looking only at the damage part of my argument as so many others - so I encourage you to read into what bugs currently exist with the setup and how tanky it makes players.

I would post about bugs here but I ahve been flagged in the past for "explaining how to abuse" while trying to just elaborate on a bad interaction so I will abstain from doing so here.

Schared

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the argument is that 2-bar = 120k+ when that's just not what most people are hitting. People working hard to get to 50k, then 60k, then 70k, then 80k, 90k, finally 100k... and now there's a build that just gives 80k-100k dps.

People can say the discussion is gatekeeping all they want but it's shutting down any conversation about WHY people take issue with HA builds (and who knows, maybe someone can change my mind). And regardless no, more people in endgame =/= happier endgame. It's rare that I see a HA player follow directions and get consequence for not. I'd be happy for more people to come to endgame, I love teaching people, but it's a matter of attitude. And again, the three defensive buffs mean there's nothing to learn.

I'm glad there's another playstyle, I really am. I don't want HA to be nerfed so that it can't be used in any content. It's just the lack of risk (more defense than a 2-bar, pretty immortal) and the lack of learning (it is more than just mechanics), that bothers me. If HA were touched all I'd want is either for oakensoul to lose one (1) of the defensive buffs and/or for there to be a bar-buffer empower skill or a skill with a long timer so that 2-bar HA can exist again.

certain classes already have this built in

templar (solar barrage which lasts like almost 25 sec) and DK (igneous weapons that lasts like 35 seconds) (and ive seen a video of a HA 2 bar templar solo the scalecaller peak trifecta)

most other classes have to use mages guild to regularly get empower, which at max only lasts about 10 sec, so you have to use a mages guild skill like after every 3rd heavy attack, which makes it more difficult to manage on a 2 bar build

Sadly I do not know how much your comment got edited - so bear with me here.
I believe the point you made actualy aligns quite well with my initial argument. I also dislike the new extended duration on dots and the overall more sluggish feel to combat as many rotations have been simplified and reduced.
However I would avoid arguing about that here as many people enjoy the setup in their current state rather than seeing it as part of an progressively worse progress - hence my focus on Heavy Attack Builds in particular as they exemplify the issue.

merpins

Schared wrote: »

Lets dissect that comment - as you accussed me of gatekeeping like half the other comments let me assure you aswell, that it is infact not my interest.

You're not gatekeeping, but you're asking the developers to gatekeep as proxy. And you might not intend to gatekeep. But it doesn't change the fact that you and the majority of people that have similar opinions are.

Schared wrote: »

The top 1% is irrelevant because what they are doing is different from most anyway - thats why I didnt attach relevance to them.
People complaining about heavy attack builds come from all flocks of eso and you singleling out a particular group is just your own narrative.

I mentioned the top 1%, the bottom 20%, and the rest in my comment in a couple sentences. I singled out the three main factions of players; the top, the bottom, and the middle which is... All players. So no, it's not my narrative. It's the WHOLE narrative. To use your words, you singling out a single quote from my post is your narrative.

Schared wrote: »

It hurts me because it selidifies a type of game that will end up in a place that I do not enjoy and that is infact a point-of-view shared with others.

Okay... How does it push the game to a place you don't enjoy? You don't have to play this way, or play with people that play this way. It has no impact on you whatsoever if you don't enjoy the playstyle. Don't want to run into someone using it on a random? Then queue with friends instead just to be super safe, but just because someone is heavy attacking all the time doesn't mean they're using a heavy attack build; many newer players in pugs just don't know game mechanics or just like playing in a way that makes sense to the average skyrim player. At least half the time I do a pug, it's a newer player that doesn't know game mechanics rather than someone doing a dedicated heavy attack build. And that's fine too.

Schared wrote: »

It is not an accessibility tool as it does not resemble any setup or gameplay one could move to after one has "evolved" past the setup. People get excluded because the build and those who influence the market with - lets call them other means revel in the ease of the setup.

It is an accessibility tool by every metric. It shouldn't be an item though, if anything it should be a game setting, but that would cause too much problems with the logistics of such a mechanic, what with the mechanical benefits.
Let's put it this way. Imagine with me...
You don't have a terrible disability, but you have mild arthritis in your hands. You play tank builds because tank builds don't require you to maintain a complex rotation, since it hurts to do those. Not that you can't; you have a number of DPS builds that you can play in short bursts! But you don't like to because it causes your hands to ache which causes you to drop DPM, which isn't great in the longer vet trials. But now, with this build, you could play DPS in a more comfortable way for longer periods of time. Sure, it does less damage than your dedicated two-bar builds, but it does the job and you can really learn the mechanics in harder trials, so when you do feel like score-pushing, you can play DPS and not have to play for too long, making your hands hurt.
... That sounds like accessibility to me. It's also the story of a friend of mine. He's unhappy that the only DPS accessibility option is a heavy attack build; the old version of Oakensoul let him do easier rotation builds that weren't just heavy attack builds, but at least he's got an option.

Schared wrote: »

If you are however talking about actual physical handycaps: My opinion here may offend you yet I will put it out there. I have played with individuals with underdeveloped arms and with people likely significantly older than both of us and both these gorups are able to perform at a top level. Matter the fact is that one of said older gentleman tanked for one of the best guilds of 2019-20 not only clearing content but going for world first/trifrectas/scores. And while I agree that it is sad that the tools of our time may include some people - I do not think the design should be significantly altered to include less than a percent.

So what you're saying is handicapped people can only play tank, and the game shouldn't have options for people with disabilities because it makes the game too easy for people without disabilities. Nah, that doesn't sound very good.

Schared wrote: »

I myself am really tall, but I do not expect every place to have doorframes taller than 205cm/6,72" either. This last opinion may be controversial I imagine but try to consider the other points before delving into the latter. Given this discussion may not be the time and place entire.

Sure. But real life is full of inconsistencies and things we can do nothing about. I'm sure if a place offered bigger doors you'd be happy to have 'em. But you'd be upset if a place that gave you bigger doors suddenly took them away because the shorter people didn't like how small they felt in the doorway.

Schared

merpins wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Lets dissect that comment - as you accussed me of gatekeeping like half the other comments let me assure you aswell, that it is infact not my interest.

You're not gatekeeping, but you're asking the developers to gatekeep as proxy. And you might not intend to gatekeep. But it doesn't change the fact that you and the majority of people that have similar opinions are.

Schared wrote: »

The top 1% is irrelevant because what they are doing is different from most anyway - thats why I didnt attach relevance to them.
People complaining about heavy attack builds come from all flocks of eso and you singleling out a particular group is just your own narrative.

I mentioned the top 1%, the bottom 20%, and the rest in my comment in a couple sentences. I singled out the three main factions of players; the top, the bottom, and the middle which is... All players. So no, it's not my narrative. It's the WHOLE narrative. To use your words, you singling out a single quote from my post is your narrative.

Schared wrote: »

It hurts me because it selidifies a type of game that will end up in a place that I do not enjoy and that is infact a point-of-view shared with others.

Okay... How does it push the game to a place you don't enjoy? You don't have to play this way, or play with people that play this way. It has no impact on you whatsoever if you don't enjoy the playstyle. Don't want to run into someone using it on a random? Then queue with friends instead just to be super safe, but just because someone is heavy attacking all the time doesn't mean they're using a heavy attack build; many newer players in pugs just don't know game mechanics or just like playing in a way that makes sense to the average skyrim player. At least half the time I do a pug, it's a newer player that doesn't know game mechanics rather than someone doing a dedicated heavy attack build. And that's fine too.

Schared wrote: »

It is not an accessibility tool as it does not resemble any setup or gameplay one could move to after one has "evolved" past the setup. People get excluded because the build and those who influence the market with - lets call them other means revel in the ease of the setup.

It is an accessibility tool by every metric. It shouldn't be an item though, if anything it should be a game setting, but that would cause too much problems with the logistics of such a mechanic, what with the mechanical benefits.
Let's put it this way. Imagine with me...
You don't have a terrible disability, but you have mild arthritis in your hands. You play tank builds because tank builds don't require you to maintain a complex rotation, since it hurts to do those. Not that you can't; you have a number of DPS builds that you can play in short bursts! But you don't like to because it causes your hands to ache which causes you to drop DPM, which isn't great in the longer vet trials. But now, with this build, you could play DPS in a more comfortable way for longer periods of time. Sure, it does less damage than your dedicated two-bar builds, but it does the job and you can really learn the mechanics in harder trials, so when you do feel like score-pushing, you can play DPS and not have to play for too long, making your hands hurt.
... That sounds like accessibility to me. It's also the story of a friend of mine. He's unhappy that the only DPS accessibility option is a heavy attack build; the old version of Oakensoul let him do easier rotation builds that weren't just heavy attack builds, but at least he's got an option.

Schared wrote: »

If you are however talking about actual physical handycaps: My opinion here may offend you yet I will put it out there. I have played with individuals with underdeveloped arms and with people likely significantly older than both of us and both these gorups are able to perform at a top level. Matter the fact is that one of said older gentleman tanked for one of the best guilds of 2019-20 not only clearing content but going for world first/trifrectas/scores. And while I agree that it is sad that the tools of our time may include some people - I do not think the design should be significantly altered to include less than a percent.

So what you're saying is handicapped people can only play tank, and the game shouldn't have options for people with disabilities because it makes the game too easy for people without disabilities. Nah, that doesn't sound very good.

Schared wrote: »

I myself am really tall, but I do not expect every place to have doorframes taller than 205cm/6,72" either. This last opinion may be controversial I imagine but try to consider the other points before delving into the latter. Given this discussion may not be the time and place entire.

Sure. But real life is full of inconsistencies and things we can do nothing about. I'm sure if a place offered bigger doors you'd be happy to have 'em. But you'd be upset if a place that gave you bigger doors suddenly took them away because the shorter people didn't like how small they felt in the doorway.

First off excuse me if my tone came of excusatory. No need to defend yourself, Iam infact trying to better the experience for everyone.
You can instill any intend you want into it really, I can only vouch for the purity of mine.

I dont think ur second argument tracks because it requires a shared understanding on what these categories are. Personally I dont think splitting them up into three does it justice however for the sake of argument lets say we agree on those. Obviously this is a largely opinion based interaction so clearly you and I engage with very different types of people. MAtter the fact is that I have not had such resounding disagreement with my argument anywhere but on the forums - so this is clearly a part of the community I do not engage with enough. As I previously stated - not sure here if in OG post or a comment - the dislike for the setup and the implication comes from all not any particular group - so it is quite interesting that we have gotten such different results. It would perhaps be interesting to see if it is infact unique to a platform as I mostly interacted with EU PC and Console.

I believe you already know the effect but sure I'll explain - It is infact cascading and once this has been normalized the game takes another step into a disliked direction. Sadly what people do is not in a vacuum so everyone affects anyone at all time. If you wish I can give examples of prior changes I advocated against that have made the game worse - despite not being as distinct in the very moment they released.

It is cool that you engage with pugs so much, I do not have as much time to engage on that front anymore - however when I do people are generally far less engaged and willing to communicate. Which in my opinion is a symptom of a more single-player-oriented experience. I used to go to great lengths to explain mechanics - in my own way - to people sat through long nights showing them the parse basics and what is good and what isnt. I havent really done that since 2020. Obviously that is particially on me - but when I now ask someone if they need help or if they know what were doing already I get no response or a well "snappy" one. Hence I understand that you may not have an issue with heavy attack builds in particular but they are the tip of the iceberg for me and exemplify a grander issue.


Well that sucks for your buddy first off. But again I can tell that ou definitions here vary widely because tanking does infact have a "rotation" and high amount of inputs - the fact that you CAN do without is already part of accessibility I would approve of.
But I wholeheartedly disagree with the sentiment that the accessibility should come with lowered difficulty of the game but rather with the way people interact with it. My experience with athritis is very limited but I imagine it as a stress-syndrome akin to any photosensibilities or well lack of that appendage. I would suggest for your friend to find alternative grip mouses, play around with controllers, try out rounded keyboards and if it remains a detrement to his/her health I would be pressed to suggest dropping the game entire. Nobody should force himself/herself to play if it negatively affects their well being.
Also a little tanget here - what is an "accessibility metric". Sorry but that phrase rubbed me wrong.

The point of the next rbacket was rather that most people that are physically disadvantaged can perform on a level good enough for anything in ESO without needing their hand held in this manner.

Your last argument is actualy quite well crafted and I quite like your use of the metaphor - however as people actively leave the game over the changes that are put in place the metaphor here would be: Smaller disliking the large doors that are put in place for a single large lad. In which case I would argue I should bend down instead of introducing something a thorn in everyones eye. The latter part you are absolutely correct on - if I had it and it gets taken away, that sucks. But the argument here should be it, shouldve never been introduced.

Schared

Oh and a little PS here:
Sorry for not quoting as you do and slow reply speed, Iam quite busy at the moment and quickly hammer these out inbetween

KlauthWarthog

Oakensoul is basically a band-aid solution to a problem they said would be addressed by U35, but ended up getting exacerbated by it - inconsistent timers for skill/buff durations and item cooldowns. And then you pile up the plethora of UI shortcomings.
Having to manage buffs and dots is only a problem because nothing lines up. Having to manage set cooldowns is an artificial problem created by the lack of UI feedback. Keeping a steady cast flow to properly use the global cooldown is another artificial problem because the damn thing does not even show in the UI.
Oakensoul greatly mitigates all three of those issues. It is an awesome tool to have, HA builds should be a viable alternative, but the proper solution is to address the issues themselves. Actually sanitize the timers and durations, and give the players the tools required to engage in the expected combat flow. Muscle memory goes out of the window when the game starts stuttering - proper UI feedback gets it back in line.

ketsparrowhawk

Love the HA build. I've been practicing my magblade dynamic 2-bar rotation for the past 7 years. As soon as I found out about the HA build I dropped my old PVE setup like a bad habit lol.

Aces-High-82

axi wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

One button builds get ~80k compared to a 120k+ on a two bar build. Difference is either you hold down one button for said 80k or you toggle your 120k macro on/off.

First of all one bar heavy attack builds can get up to over 100k not 80k. 80-83k is a DPS You can pull just by pressing LMB, nothing else but OP clearly have in mind setups that perform a rotation inbetween heavy attacks. Second of all I doubt there is anyone that pushes 120k+ on a dummy with a macro. Macro in general causes more harm than benefits at high end of the game especially in dynamic rotations and real fights.

Dummy is not a real fight. In real fights heavy attack setups starts to get additional benefits that shorten up the distance between them and two bar setups to the point that in mid game one bar heavy attack sorc currently is capable to beat or be on pair with most of the two bar setups. Benefits like being a range, easily sustaining, easy to micromanage and pulling most of the dmg as an AoE are really important in real fights.

And just to be clear I am not an emeny of one bar heavy attack setups but if we want to have a talk about them lets be honest to eachother and not pretend they're weak. They're not weak, it they would nobody would use them.

I mentioned ONE BUTTON is capable of 80k, maybe you misread it. As far as macro friendly static rota: One bar HA petsorc is capable of 120k on the dummy. As for real fights: one bar HA sorc can spike up to 300k+ on pulls and 170k single target via Power Overload. If that's not bursty enough I don't know what else is.

axi

Tannus15 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

here is a great example

vSCP HM SOLO

Do you really think someone who isn't already good at the game can just throw on an oaken build and do this?

Vet SCP HM solo is not specifically tied to one bar builds. Two bar setup is actually doing better job there since it offers more tools to Your disposal and ring of the pale order is better there than oakensoul anyway and dungeon itself is not that hard. If I remember correctly @luchtt even soloed trifecta there with two bar setup.

Fact that SPC can be soloed with oakensoul really doesn't bring anything into one bar heavy attack builds discossion.

that's my point. people who can do crazy things like 3 minute vAS HM clears with oakensoul can already do 3 minute vAS HM clears.
people who can't clear vAS HM won't suddenly be able to just master all the mechanics because of oakensoul. for anyone who can already do 100k dps on a dummy it's going to make almost no difference. for those who can't it'll help, but they still need to master the mechanics.

it's not giving out free IR or godslayer runs.

There is a very, very small subset of people who have the reflexes and ability to do HM mechanics but don't have the ability to master dps rotations.
Anyone who gets 75k on a two bar build who suddenly gets 85k on a HA build isn't going to magically learn the skills and disciple to get into flare and drop hoarfrost and not wipe the group in vCR+3.
I don't see how it devalues any of the current content or achivements.

I agree that some top achievements with top times are reserved for top players. Your view on effectiveness of oakensoul and getting some of the top achievemts with it is not entirely correct though. AS HM is perfect example. You would be suprised how much easier surviving there becomes with oakensoul. You loose not so much DPS compared to average two bar setups but You gain lots of defense.

What defense You may ask. First of all You are no longer tied to spell power pots since You have major sorcery, prophecy and great sustain already at Your disposal and because of that You can use a potion that gives unique 5,3k spell/physical resists. You also gain major resolve which wouldnt be always so easy to get on two bar setup without loosing something else. You can use two stat food which compared to for example clockwork citrus fillet offers more health so further improving Your defense without sacrificing sustain because as already mentioned sustain is not an issue on heavy attack setup. On top of that You gain minor protection and minor aegis. Overall You gain 20-30% more defense than regular two bar setup in vAS HM. You even get minor heroism which improves ulti usage including barier uptimes if group decided to go extra safe.

Just for the refference my one bar heavy attack sorc is capable to get over 32k HP and 29k resistances plus minor protection and minor aegis. These are almost tank stats. That allows me to literally ignore Liothis poison cone mechanic. I am just standing in it completly ignoring it, no blocking needed, worst case scenario I will just use vigor one time. I can even easily survive this mechanic from enraged Liothis. What is even more funny is that my sorc despite using mostly magicka abilities have max stam as a main scaling resource allowing me to dodge and block more than regular magicka setup while my magicka sustain is perfectly fine duue to heavy attack rotation. And when it comes to vAS specifically rotation on heavy attack is also pretty beneficial because when normally You need to learn to switch between main boss and mini bosses when tank brings them under the main boss on one bar heavy attack You don't even have to care trhat much because 80-90% of Your dmg is an AoE.

So yes people still need to always learn mechanics in order to reach for hardest achievements but one bar heavy attack setup allows for way more mistakes than regular setups. All of that while it can still pull 80-90% of two bar setups DPS when DPS required for said achievemnts is way lower anyway.

axi

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

One button builds get ~80k compared to a 120k+ on a two bar build. Difference is either you hold down one button for said 80k or you toggle your 120k macro on/off.

First of all one bar heavy attack builds can get up to over 100k not 80k. 80-83k is a DPS You can pull just by pressing LMB, nothing else but OP clearly have in mind setups that perform a rotation inbetween heavy attacks. Second of all I doubt there is anyone that pushes 120k+ on a dummy with a macro. Macro in general causes more harm than benefits at high end of the game especially in dynamic rotations and real fights.

Dummy is not a real fight. In real fights heavy attack setups starts to get additional benefits that shorten up the distance between them and two bar setups to the point that in mid game one bar heavy attack sorc currently is capable to beat or be on pair with most of the two bar setups. Benefits like being a range, easily sustaining, easy to micromanage and pulling most of the dmg as an AoE are really important in real fights.

And just to be clear I am not an emeny of one bar heavy attack setups but if we want to have a talk about them lets be honest to eachother and not pretend they're weak. They're not weak, it they would nobody would use them.

I mentioned ONE BUTTON is capable of 80k, maybe you misread it. As far as macro friendly static rota: One bar HA petsorc is capable of 120k on the dummy. As for real fights: one bar HA sorc can spike up to 300k+ on pulls and 170k single target via Power Overload. If that's not bursty enough I don't know what else is.

So You compare putting a brick on a LMB to performing two bar light attack weaving rotation? What is even the point of comparison like that? No, one bar heavy attack sorc is not capable of 120k. It usually gets somwhere around 100-105k. And I would reccomed You to stop with this macro stuff if You want for Your comments to be taken seriously.

Soarora

Schared wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Many posts here are talking about 120k DPS vs 80k DPS for two bar vs 1 bar HA builds. IMO, the issue isn't at the top, it's in the middle. The ease of 80k DPS HA builds means that even middling players can use them. This is pushing up the middle to be a HA meta. I appreciate that HA builds have a lower ceiling, but that's really only a consolation if you're in that 120k club. [snip]

Enjoy this MS paint graph that illustrates my issue with HA builds


[Edited for Baiting]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the argument is that 2-bar = 120k+ when that's just not what most people are hitting. People working hard to get to 50k, then 60k, then 70k, then 80k, 90k, finally 100k... and now there's a build that just gives 80k-100k dps.

People can say the discussion is gatekeeping all they want but it's shutting down any conversation about WHY people take issue with HA builds (and who knows, maybe someone can change my mind). And regardless no, more people in endgame =/= happier endgame. It's rare that I see a HA player follow directions and get consequence for not. I'd be happy for more people to come to endgame, I love teaching people, but it's a matter of attitude. And again, the three defensive buffs mean there's nothing to learn.

I'm glad there's another playstyle, I really am. I don't want HA to be nerfed so that it can't be used in any content. It's just the lack of risk (more defense than a 2-bar, pretty immortal) and the lack of learning (it is more than just mechanics), that bothers me. If HA were touched all I'd want is either for oakensoul to lose one (1) of the defensive buffs and/or for there to be a bar-buffer empower skill or a skill with a long timer so that 2-bar HA can exist again.

certain classes already have this built in

templar (solar barrage which lasts like almost 25 sec) and DK (igneous weapons that lasts like 35 seconds) (and ive seen a video of a HA 2 bar templar solo the scalecaller peak trifecta)

most other classes have to use mages guild to regularly get empower, which at max only lasts about 10 sec, so you have to use a mages guild skill like after every 3rd heavy attack, which makes it more difficult to manage on a 2 bar build

Sadly I do not know how much your comment got edited - so bear with me here.
I believe the point you made actualy aligns quite well with my initial argument. I also dislike the new extended duration on dots and the overall more sluggish feel to combat as many rotations have been simplified and reduced.
However I would avoid arguing about that here as many people enjoy the setup in their current state rather than seeing it as part of an progressively worse progress - hence my focus on Heavy Attack Builds in particular as they exemplify the issue.

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

katorga

If a HA builds meet or exceed the minimum necessary DPS levels, then 2 bar builds become redundant.

What I've noticed is that a HA player brings a steady 100K, and the more complicated 2 bar builds bring spiky dps based on the rotation, ability to weave with 100% accuracy, and so on. It averages 130K, but has more peaks and troughs.

MudcrabAttack

I can agree with your take about defense of oakensoul being too good, it’s clearly made to allow players to fearlessly hold left mouse button down through all kinds of mechanics. Random vet group finder placed me into scalecaller peak with an oakensoul lightning staff tank who didn’t taunt anything at all, and they managed to die anyway at the first boss, then I just let myself out.

I’m finding myself defaulting to oakensoul for some trash pulls that get rough while working on trifecta trials, it’s really hard to die in those cases

Damage-wise I think it’s probably fine, I’ve had years to work on the gameplay and develop techniques and builds, and I’m not near the top end since my dummy parses are generally 15% behind whatever is the top parse shown on YouTube. There’s only one trial boss fight where I tend to use oakensoul, at the VHOF triplets while my group was doing TTT. Everywhere else in that and other trials it’s not as good as my typical dps setup. I tried it on every vet trial boss already, but I play Nightblade instead of Sorc. Nightblade oakensoul lightning build apparently pumps out a lot of AOE damage whether you have ultimate or not, and bland single target. It works OK for Bahsei when tanks bring all the atros/flame guys beside Bahsei (and you can apparently not die when others explode), and maybe reef guardian when all of the big guardians are stacked (and poison and lightning hurt much less) but the experiences I had in those two cases weren’t HM.

Ingenon

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

Amottica

axi wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

One button builds get ~80k compared to a 120k+ on a two bar build. Difference is either you hold down one button for said 80k or you toggle your 120k macro on/off.

First of all one bar heavy attack builds can get up to over 100k not 80k. 80-83k is a DPS

Please provide a video of this.

Thank you.

axi

Amottica wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

One button builds get ~80k compared to a 120k+ on a two bar build. Difference is either you hold down one button for said 80k or you toggle your 120k macro on/off.

First of all one bar heavy attack builds can get up to over 100k not 80k. 80-83k is a DPS

Please provide a video of this.

Thank you.

Video provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stTz8EbHOaU

You're welcome.

Soarora

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

The_Titan_Tim

They should buff non-Lightning Staff, non-Restoration Staff Heavy Attack builds…

Why does Bow, Dual Wield, or Inferno not compare for Single Target?

Necrotech_Master

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They should buff non-Lightning Staff, non-Restoration Staff Heavy Attack builds…

Why does Bow, Dual Wield, or Inferno not compare for Single Target?

lightning is far ahead for 2 reasons (its a channel, all 3 of the dmg ticks benefit from HA sets + empower AND trifocus destro passive turns the lightning heavy into an aoe, so massive cleave dmg)

resto is behind lightning because it does not have the aoe (still a 3 tick channel which all ticks benefit from empower and HA sets)

2h i think is the next tier (only a single hit so doesnt multi-dip empower/HA sets, but the 2h passive still makes it an aoe)

duel wield i think is same tier as 2h (not a channel but registers as 2 hits which each dips on empower/sets, but it doesnt have the aoe that 2h has)

everything else (inferno/frost staves, 1h/shield, bow) are what i would see as bottom tier (1 single hit, and no aoe dmg on hit)

jaws343

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

The_Titan_Tim

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They should buff non-Lightning Staff, non-Restoration Staff Heavy Attack builds…

Why does Bow, Dual Wield, or Inferno not compare for Single Target?

lightning is far ahead for 2 reasons (its a channel, all 3 of the dmg ticks benefit from HA sets + empower AND trifocus destro passive turns the lightning heavy into an aoe, so massive cleave dmg)

resto is behind lightning because it does not have the aoe (still a 3 tick channel which all ticks benefit from empower and HA sets)

2h i think is the next tier (only a single hit so doesnt multi-dip empower/HA sets, but the 2h passive still makes it an aoe)

duel wield i think is same tier as 2h (not a channel but registers as 2 hits which each dips on empower/sets, but it doesnt have the aoe that 2h has)

everything else (inferno/frost staves, 1h/shield, bow) are what i would see as bottom tier (1 single hit, and no aoe dmg on hit)

Right, but they should be shining in their respective damage types and are not.

Hottytotz

The fact that the ceiling for 2 bar builds is significantly higher than perfectly set up heavy attack builds [snip] is never addressed. The only [snip] attempt is to say how easy it is to do 20-30% less dps on a heavy attack build LOL. [snip] Live and let live. Why nerf and destroy a way of playing the game that is not the strongest/most optimal/or meta. 2 bar builds also bring 3 times more utitlity. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

Hyperdeathstalker

Like many people have already stated multiple times, heavy attack builds dont break any records and the endgame top tier are not bothered by them as they are around 35k less.

The only people that are upset with them are the more mid tier endgamers who are feeling threatened as the prob pull the same or slightly higher. Im guessing the person who posted this discussion is one of them.

Accept and move on dont ruin it for other players

Billium813

Hottytotz wrote: »

The fact that the ceiling for 2 bar builds is significantly higher than perfectly set up heavy attack builds [snip] is never addressed. The only [snip] attempt is to say how easy it is to do 20-30% less dps on a heavy attack build LOL. [snip] Live and let live. Why nerf and destroy a way of playing the game that is not the strongest/most optimal/or meta. 2 bar builds also bring 3 times more utitlity. [snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

I agree that the fact that 2 bar setups can reach higher potential damage, and therefore HA builds are less optimal in high tier gameplay. That's great and good for the game! More complex builds and more APM should be rewarded with more damage and higher potential. It's an easy peasy scale to use. HA builds are easy to use in high tier gameplay, giving players access, yet doesn't have the highest potential, mostly based on their simplicity of actions and less diverse buff applications. Sound good IMO.

The issues come when you start looking lower on the curves. HA builds are sooo simple that they dominate the middle of the field. Mid level players, with middling APM and clunky rotations, would be fools to not just drop 8 skill rotations and run HA builds with slow, 3-4 skill rotations. They are easier and can still complete the mid level content with less overall skill or attention necessary.

However, those players are being lead down the wrong path; they are being setup for failure. They are taking those builds into the highest level play, en mass, and hitting a wall. They never developed the necessary skills in the mid level to help them into the highest levels. So, then the discussion becomes "make HA builds better! We can't compete" or "we need to lower the difficulty on high tier content!". Both of those are ramifications of where the game lead players astray in the first place.

What do you tell the player who's struggling in the Vet dungeons (which I would argue is the true middle of the mid level gameplay)? "Go get a HA build, you'll breeze through it."

Soarora

jaws343 wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

That mini discussion isn’t about DoT timers but a response to me arguing for another source of empower. If HA builds had to be 2-bar to be competitive then I feel it more closely aligns with LA builds in progression, survivability, etc. That’s not to say that 1-bar HA should be demolished (ex. Removing empower from Oakensoul) in favor of 2-bar, but I don’t believe it fair for a 3 skill build to be at the same level as one with many more skills, let alone a 3 skill build that’s nigh immortal.

First: I do not believe that the one bar HA build is at the same level as the two bar LA weaving builds. This does not agree with my current experience doing trials with a trials guild. I have seen two bar LA weaving builds producing higher DPS than one bar HA build in veteran trials.

Second: Fair to who? I have stated before in this thread that folks who LA weave advocating for nerfs to one bar HA build are Gatekeeping. Because the result of the nerf will be that the LA weave folks will still be able to do veteran content, while the one bar HA build folks will not. Please explain to me how a nerf to one group of folks while leaving another group of folks untouched is fair?

You may not believe so, but I do. If HA builds can do trifectas (which they can), they are at the same level as LA builds. Scorepushing is a very very small portion, is an outlier, and I exclude it. But do not get me wrong like you did in the second section, I do NOT believe that HA shouldn’t be able to do difficult content. I just believe that HA builds that can do that content shouldn’t be as easy as 1-3 skills, hold left click, block through most mechanics. By my opinion, I am not gatekeeping HA players as a whole, but believe that an endgame HA build should be a little bit below the difficulty of an endgame LA build, not way below the difficulty as it is now.

Edit: Heck, buff 2-bar HA builds to be able to hit 120k if it means HA and LA would be even more equal. It’s a valid playstyle. My problems literally just come down to the survivability and how easy the 1-bar build is in comparison to LA.

But even the "Do Trifecta" benchmark is rather pointless. Anyone with the right amount of gold can "do" a trifecta.

Echoing what others are saying. This is just all a ton of unnecessary gatekeeping.

Oakensoul had some issues at launch, especially the major heroism making it way too strong. That was adjusted and the ring, and the builds it facilitates, are in decent spots. No need to buff them, no need to nerf them.

My “do trifecta” benchmark is to show how well the build works in comparison to the average endgame dps (not the top), bringing up carries doesn’t change my point. Carries are completely irrelevant. And again, it’s NOT gatekeeping. That’s just shutting down the discussion. People who prefer HA builds SHOULD be able to do trifectas. I have never in my memory said people shouldn’t be able to do content because they prefer HA. Just not with the blockability of a tank and the ease of 3 buttons (with little to no ability to change sets too). But at the very least I hope I am understood when I say there’s no reason for oakensoul to have 3 defensive buffs that make one bar HA builds have more defense than any (nontank) build without Oakensoul. Oakensoul is to take up buffing so that people don’t have to spend their limited barspace on buffing themselves, not to become more tanky than anyone can get outside of being a tank.

Edit: Oakensoul was used in HA because of the constant empower buff to begin with anyways. So I’ll turn all this back, by refusing any discussion regarding HA you all are gatekeeping the possibility of growth in the HA playstyle so that HA 2-bar can exist outside of Templar and DK. Which comes with the possibility that HA may peacefully be at the same exact level as LA one day.

RaptorRodeoGod

I like how people are complaining that HA build get free survivability, as if 2 bar builds don't have 5 extra skill slots, and an extra ultimate slot, and the ability to run a heavy monster helm, all to increase survivability.

It's almost like people are forgetting one bar builds leave like half their abilities on the table, and are pigeon holed into 3 sets.

blktauna

Schared wrote: »

<snip>

A blanket statement. But I would refer you to a comment I made earlier - if you like things given to you instead of working through them pay-to-win games provide exactly the experience you may be lacking.

And this is your concern in what way? Who are you to impose your desired playstyle onto those who do not want to play that way? As my Nan used to say, "who died and left you boss?"

Please keep to your own lane and worry about your own progress and achievement.

Soarora

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I like how people are complaining that HA build get free survivability, as if 2 bar builds don't have 5 extra skill slots, and an extra ultimate slot, and the ability to run a heavy monster helm, all to increase survivability.

It's almost like people are forgetting one bar builds leave like half their abilities on the table, and are pigeon holed into 3 sets.

Not to the survivability of oakensoul. Again, not arguing that ALL the defensive buffs should be removed, at all, only one (1). Actually, I perfectly understand why there are defensive buffs, because of the lack of barspace. The problem I have is that oakensoul gives you more survivability than you can ever get on anything other than a tank, to the point of being able to just block through mechanics and tank DLC dungeon bosses.

Edit: also it'd be cool if HA weren't pigeonholed into 2 sets. Honestly, maybe a mythic that gives constant empower and also buffs HA to the point of at least allowing for a non-ha 5pc would be cool. Without locking it into one bar.