Heavy Attack Builds

PrincessOfThieves · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Of course, the next "I don't like this, so take it away from other people" threads are already starting... stealth with Nightblades......

This will be completely forgotten when the Arcanist hits the scene.... We all know that it has to carry and sell the new expansion.. and, as the marketing team probably hopes, bring back some of the pre-U35 playerbase.
Once it hits, I pretty much expect the multiple threads screaming about a ring, mostly made by the same small handful of people, to drop off......

Auldwulfe

Schared · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Of course, the next "I don't like this, so take it away from other people" threads are already starting... stealth with Nightblades......

This will be completely forgotten when the Arcanist hits the scene.... We all know that it has to carry and sell the new expansion.. and, as the marketing team probably hopes, bring back some of the pre-U35 playerbase.
Once it hits, I pretty much expect the multiple threads screaming about a ring, mostly made by the same small handful of people, to drop off......

Auldwulfe

Sadly most of those Iam familiar with will not be comming back and are rather alienated by the current state. Obviously its a mix of things but the here discussed setup is the proverbial cherry on top.
Some may check out the raid for raidlogging tho - might be fun but overall an every changing player base appears to be the new age symptom: with people picking the game up, semi-mastering it and dropping it in under a year.

Schared · April 2023

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

Anyone's opinion is valid mate. I do share the sentiment to at times argue with a wall, but it is often that people just dont have one's own perspective.

Personally I will keep advocating against the current direction as I enjoy challange and the ability to distinguish myself.

Schared · April 2023

Ingenon wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

H3rBie wrote: »

HA builds are nothing game breaking, it makes harder content easier, yes, but at the end there's a lot more required to clear than just using HA builds.
haven't seen noob groups doing GH now and you also need to know what you do when you want to run vvh in less than 30 min with an oakensorc.

Obviously thats like a definition game and such. Suffice to say that "noob groups" have done GH, IR and such now and perhaps in the same vein - carry runners have put that stuff on farm due to the increased ease.

Please define "noob". I think your definition is "anyone who is using a HA build". While I think a noob is someone new to the game, who just started playing. If someone plays the game long enough to grind the skills, unlock the set pieces, craft the gear, and learn to play a build, by my definition that person is not a "noob", whether they finally end up playing a LA weaving build that has the potential to do 130k+ DPS on a trial dummy, or a HA build that will at best do 30% less damage on a trial dummy. And of course after settling on a build, the player still needs to learn the mechanics in order to complete veteran PvE content. So again, I think that a person who grinds all the gear needed for a build, and learns the PvE trail/dungeon/arena mechanics is not a "noob", no matter what build they are using.

Schared wrote: »

@Auldwulfe
Mh, I dont think a sub-fee entitles one to all content rather it does enable to enjoy it - also ESO+ isnt mandatory so idk.
It reads alot like "I want it to be given to me." which clashes with anything that is designed to challenge and rewards.

Iam oversimplifying but I bet your smelling what Iam selling.

Please define "challenge". I think that you believe that challenge is "learn to play the way I play", and I believe that you play a LA weaving build. I believe challenge involves figuring out what it takes to achieve a goal, and then doing the work required to get it. Which has nothing to do with build, in my opinion. Players have to do all the work of grinding the skills and sets to craft whatever build they pick. And then learn the mechanics of whatever veteran trial/dungeon/arena that are working towards clearing. I think that most of the work is the same no matter what build someone picks. It sounds to me like you do not want anyone to get rewards unless they play the way you play. Separately, ESO advertises "Play As You Want". I think ESO is right, and I am fine with having multiple builds to pick from in order to achieve rewards.

Heavy Attack builds do not need nerfed. They do less damage in PvE group play than a well played LA weaving build. Top scoring PvE raids are not made up of only Heavy Attack builds. See https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards for proof.

Have you tried both LA weaving builds and Heavy Attack builds (like Oakensoul Sorcerer build)? Which build do you parse higher with on a trial dummy? I know that top DPS players get a higher score with LA weaving builds. I also know that I do not, and that I get a higher parse with an Oakensoul Sorcerer build. So I play an Oakensoul Sorcerer build for group PvE.

Are you playing the DPS build that you play best when you are grouped? If not, why not?

I wont get into defining "noob" as it is - as quoted in the very post you made - a definition game, which iam not keen on playing.

Challenge is something to overcome given time, experience and ability. The "learn the way I play argument" has some merit I cannot dismiss but instead I rather suggest that everyone is copying each other instead of trying out their own things. Especially people on the low end get mad about their performance difference but they never attempt to build their own and make it semi-competetive. Obviously there is a best - but it does not mean it is a requirement. You said that 130k is about the cap as of now - I would suggest that almost all content is open to anyone with about 70k.
All the points you made arguing that the current situation is actualy people figuring things out can be discarded due to the fact that the build did not originate among those groups nor is it something that happened by design but rather on accident - while someone may wag their finger at me here and suggest that its the same thing the topenders do - they could easily hop to the 2nd best in a seconds notice - while if oakensoul is taken away those who put all their chips on black are standing naked in the rain once more because they invested into a singular asset rather than diversifying their portfolio.

You'd be right to assume that I play and enjoy LA builds however I have no parsed on a raid-dummy since 2019 and have been mostly playing tank since, just for personal enjoyment reasons. Yet even with no practice I do occassionally get invited as DD and manage to be competetive and at times even beat "dd mains". For me its like riding a bike, which suggests to me that some are simply to afraid to ever take of the training wheels.
In case you are curious I learned how to parse in 2018 - it was Stamblade meta back then and people used the 60mio dummy to evaluate their dps. I had the best possible gear and only reached 38k which was pretty bad back then. A player called Terminal hopped on discord with me and essentially flamed me for a night. After about an hour of him showing me his tricks and 3 more of me practicing I got my damage up to 55k - which was considered topend-ready at the time. I dont think asking anyone to just try different things for 4hours to then forever have it is entirely unreasonable.

Now compared to todays DD I most likely suck pretty badly - ive seen people parse frame perfectly, which for me borders at degen behaviour - however it is obviously great fun to them. As I was never super good in flat out parsing but usually just better with keeping up the pressure while doing mechanics my damage remained competetive with experience. Nowadays I just join raids and try to do about 90-95% of whatever the groups top DD is doing and take that as a victory.

Either way I understand that much of this is obviously opinion based and granted iam just representing myself. However I already dismissed the idea that the leaderboard is representative of what most people are doing so I would ask you for a secondary example if it remains your main point of argument. Furthermore the Oakensoul-Heavy Attack build damage is fundamentally broken no matter what difference of opinion we have - if you want to try it out yourself install a damage tracking addon and hit some players/dummies with different armour values in an controlled enviroment. The tri-focus cleave damage calculation will most likely also appear off for you as it does not take resistances into account properly - this is mentioned in the original post.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Schared wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Of course, the next "I don't like this, so take it away from other people" threads are already starting... stealth with Nightblades......

This will be completely forgotten when the Arcanist hits the scene.... We all know that it has to carry and sell the new expansion.. and, as the marketing team probably hopes, bring back some of the pre-U35 playerbase.
Once it hits, I pretty much expect the multiple threads screaming about a ring, mostly made by the same small handful of people, to drop off......

Auldwulfe

Sadly most of those Iam familiar with will not be comming back and are rather alienated by the current state. Obviously its a mix of things but the here discussed setup is the proverbial cherry on top.
Some may check out the raid for raidlogging tho - might be fun but overall an every changing player base appears to be the new age symptom: with people picking the game up, semi-mastering it and dropping it in under a year.

At the moment, people that have told me they were bored, and quitting, as they felt trapped in overland, only, have decided to stay on... so this current set up is helping more than it is harming....
And it does fit with what ZOS said they wanted - it raised the floor
People are no longer have their eyes glued to their bars, but can actually see the action
It provides more accessability

As I noted -- it is a useful learning tool.... I use it when I need to tweak something, and want to see which buff is helping, versus the ones not really needed..... I am using it on two of my 7 characters, right now... one is a sorc, as I was using it to show someone in my house, which buffs it did, and how it works.... as she plays a one bar 2-handed DK, and doesn't want a second bar, and was curious as to what the various buffs actually did.... I'll probably take it back off and go back to my easier rotation / higher survivability, build, that I have without it.

And right now, I am going to put it on my newer tank... I leveled him a bit fast, and while his one hand and shield are fine, his ice staff is a bit low ... and this way, I can level that in overland content, and get it where it belongs.

(By the way, this is the only accepted tank set up, yeah, so much for screaming about limited diversity because of a ring.... without that setup, you get vote-kicked immediately, as a "fake tank".... maybe some of the screaming about lack of diversity could be angled that way, where it is really needed)

In the end, I don't have a right to tell anyone how they should play, not unless I plan on paying their subscription costs... and even then, it would be, very much, a *** move to do that.....

If people want to play a certain way, then letting them do so is their right..... that some people feel they are entitled to tell others how to play is adding a LOT of toxicity to the community, and doing more to turn people away, than the much discussed ring ever did....

Ignore it, and go on..... let people enjoy the game, and they will either move past it, or not... but that is their choice, not mine, or anyone else's..... some people have items that they got, that are no longer available.... it's not something I scream at... I enjoy that they got them..... end of story. It really is that simple to just let people play however they want...... as long as they are having fun, it helps me.... because they continue to pay for their subscription, and that keeps the servers up.....

Auldwulfe

Zezin · April 2023

Schared wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

Anyone's opinion is valid mate. I do share the sentiment to at times argue with a wall, but it is often that people just dont have one's own perspective.

Personally I will keep advocating against the current direction as I enjoy challenge and the ability to distinguish myself.

My previous comment got flagged so I won't repeat it lol, yeah I get what you're saying but the fact stands. I see myself playing less and less with every change meant to slow down combat in the game, HA builds are just kind of the culmination of that I guess. If it weren't for the hype of the new class and the opportunity of playing something new and exciting I probably would have dropped ESO for good instead of just taking a break like with U35(where my main class got gutted) and U36(where a game breaking bug affecting a core mechanic didn't get fixed for an embarrassing amount of time).

PrincessOfThieves · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

The thing is, any build requires some farming. Oaken builds are not unique in this regard, people farm things like Harpooners Kilt, trial sets, monster helmets and the like. But with any other build, you actually need to learn how to play it to do really high dps. Just using heavy attacks with oakensorc gives you like 70k, which is more than many players can get with an actual rotation. That makes the build much better than any other builds for the majority of players.
And it does affect other people as long as it is used in group content. Like any other OP build, it discourages people who play other types of builds. Imagine that you are, let's say, a dk who wants to improve and join trial runs. You practice for a while and reach 70-80k dps or so. But then you see someone collecting leads for oakensoul ring and instantly getting higher dps with no effort whatsoever. Of course, you can make a sorc and farm oakensoul, but what if you want to play another type of build? Or you have arthritis and holding down your mouse button makes your hand hurt? Or you simply don't want to be pigeonholed into strict meta?
Speaking of entitlement... It is entitled to think that your build should have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks other builds have. And like I said, I think that heavy attack builds should have their place, but they should be better balanced, like all other builds.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

The thing is, any build requires some farming. Oaken builds are not unique in this regard, people farm things like Harpooners Kilt, trial sets, monster helmets and the like. But with any other build, you actually need to learn how to play it to do really high dps. Just using heavy attacks with oakensorc gives you like 70k, which is more than many players can get with an actual rotation. That makes the build much better than any other builds for the majority of players.
And it does affect other people as long as it is used in group content. Like any other OP build, it discourages people who play other types of builds. Imagine that you are, let's say, a dk who wants to improve and join trial runs. You practice for a while and reach 70-80k dps or so. But then you see someone collecting leads for oakensoul ring and instantly getting higher dps with no effort whatsoever. Of course, you can make a sorc and farm oakensoul, but what if you want to play another type of build? Or you have arthritis and holding down your mouse button makes your hand hurt? Or you simply don't want to be pigeonholed into strict meta?
Speaking of entitlement... It is entitled to think that your build should have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks other builds have. And like I said, I think that heavy attack builds should have their place, but they should be better balanced, like all other builds.

And, doing heavy attacks with a lightning staff, Crit Surge, and magelight for the passive empower gives 70K.... no Oakensoul required .... the issue is the way that Lightning, and to a slightly lesser extent, Restoration staves interact with heavy attack support sets.......And, as noted MANY times, now, the rotation is just as easy, if not easier, than using Oakensoul...... and Crit Surge heals you, which Oakensoul does NOT do.... making it slightly more survivable ..... I have been using that one, off and on, for 18 months... and since, I couldn't load Oakensoul on that earlier time, even with a time machine, as the code would not recognize it.... then the issue is probably not with Oakensoul...

Nerfing a ring that is helping a LOT of people, probably WON'T change the heavy attack meta at all.... as you can get it very easily.... If I wanted to, I could drop my crit to 51%, from the over 60% I have, now. Still get the same healing from Crit Surge, and swap my one light set for Queens Elegance, which, as has been shown, results in 99% uptimewith empower in all combat... meaning I could stack even more stuff... but the rotation that that would allow me to match the "overpowered" Oakensoul build would be me hitting one button every 33 seconds..... which is what everyone is complaining about.......

Nerfing Oakensoul is like smashing your windows out, because your roof leaks....
18 months ago, I was doing this same type of build.... Oakensoul did NOT even exist at that time.... it's the way that heavy attack from Lightning and Restoration Staves count as 4 attacks in game... each can crit, etc. And, from what it looks like is that it is allowing other factors to stack .... in my research, it seems to be the armor enhancement from sets like Sergeant's Mail......

The last thing is the terribly mistaken belief that somehow, Oakensoul users don't do anything to get the damage... they do, they do the mechanics, I have seen it, and if they DON'T to that, they WILL Die....
Oddly, again, I don't see any whining about Oakensoul with 2-handed weapons.... which a good number of people do.... no problem there, as far as anyone can tell... it is ONLY with a combo that gives the same effect if it isn't there.

We can keep blaming one thing, for the issue from another.... but that isn't going to fix the core problem, it will just shift it, and the people that feel they are getting nerfed with get upset, deside they are being denied content they paid for, and leave..... it's not like the community is doing a whole lot to help them in any other way.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe · April 2023

What I find most humorous is that I felt the same way about oakensoul as the people that wanted it nerfed... until I actually dug into it, and realized that I was wrong .... it is NOT an instant I WIN button.....
Everything that it gives you, that matters, is EASILY obtainable by one of the hundreds of sets we have. Slime Craw has one of the largest crit boosts per number of pieces required, along with permanent Minor Berserk... there are other sets that give you Major Savagery and Sorcery, as well as sets that give you Major Brutality, etc....

Then, there are sets, like Queens Elegance, which gives you 3 seconds of Empower as soon as you do damage, proccing every second.... or more or less, a permanent uptime once the first second of the fight passes.....
And, it's a light set, so it enhances your critical and penetration, just with the passives, at a level most people, using the prescribed oakensoul builds by the clickbait sellers are not getting.

Combat in ESO is more than just damage.... and parsing damage is NOT combat damage... any interrupt throws off heavy attacks... and those players STILL have to avoid standing in stupid (unless you DON'T use Oakensoul, go restoration, and crit surge, as I have tested several times above...... THEN, you CAN stand in stupid all day, as the non-stop passive healing will blow Oakensoul out of the dungeon) - they still have to dodge, block, know mechanics, apply heals, and deal with adds..... yes, that is easier with a lightning staff.... and it doesn't matter what items you have on, as Cleave go brrrr ..... by the way, that one doesn't come from Oakensoul, that comes from the staff.

If Oakensoul was as powerful as is claimed... it would be a PVP build.....
By they way, feel free to go PVP with it, and try and prove me wrong..... I did, and I died... again, and again, and again.

I would suggest, again, that instead of isolating people for doing EXACTLY what ZOS said was the goal..... help them branch out and explore

ZOS wanted to raise the floor... Oakensoul can help with that.
ZOS wants people to focus on the action, and not staring at their bars and timers... Oakensoul helps with that... but it isn't perfect, there
ZOS wants more people to have access to more content... and Oakensoul helps with that..... they still can't do the elite parts, but they aren't trapped in Overland Only, anymore.... which is what nerfing them would consign them back to... at which point, I do not expect that many of them would enjoy the game, or stay......

Let people play the way they want to.... you are playing the way YOU want to..... and that's great......

And for those that say it ruins their experience in group... you must be absolutely foaming over the spin attack people, the jab spammers, etc... and the whole DK Pack thing going on.... you'd think that Van Hallen is a sponsor of the game, the way everyone does the Dragon Jump.......
There are a LOT of ways to get in the same damage park by spamming...... and none of these people are doing the prescribed ritual to make their damage.... properly flipping bars when their addon tells them to, and waiting for it to think and tell them the next thing they must do. They are not using the prescribed builds, etc....

At this point, as has been done with all of the other threads that keep getting started about nerf this, or nerf that.... it comes down to someone not liking other people's builds, if they

A: are intimidated by it,
B: feel that it isn't fair that they can't make other people jump through hoops......

We have threads to nerf Warden ice damage, we have threads to nerf Night Blades for breathing ....
Meanwhile DK go brrr.... and get more buffs when they are already over half the population on most leaderboards....

I'm for leaving people alone, and letting them discover things on their own... yeah, a lot might go there, but it won't last forever.... The game is in a transitive state, anyways.... and this is a result of U35... which brought everything down to a basic level.... my hope is that things like Oakensoul will be expanded.. so that the myriad of sets we have can become more useful, as more and more combinations are discovered...... right now, lightning staves and Sergeant's mail are a thing..... and the effect is pretty much right there, no matter what anyone uses with it.... I'd love to see more enhancements for fire, ice, etc.... build up, rather than nerf down.... because the end of that is everyone doing exactly the same minimum damage... no real way to raise it, and eventually, light attacks being put on the GCD, as it would be considered an exploit, once damage is minimized.....

Auldwulfe

Zezin · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

The thing is, any build requires some farming. Oaken builds are not unique in this regard, people farm things like Harpooners Kilt, trial sets, monster helmets and the like. But with any other build, you actually need to learn how to play it to do really high dps. Just using heavy attacks with oakensorc gives you like 70k, which is more than many players can get with an actual rotation. That makes the build much better than any other builds for the majority of players.
And it does affect other people as long as it is used in group content. Like any other OP build, it discourages people who play other types of builds. Imagine that you are, let's say, a dk who wants to improve and join trial runs. You practice for a while and reach 70-80k dps or so. But then you see someone collecting leads for oakensoul ring and instantly getting higher dps with no effort whatsoever. Of course, you can make a sorc and farm oakensoul, but what if you want to play another type of build? Or you have arthritis and holding down your mouse button makes your hand hurt? Or you simply don't want to be pigeonholed into strict meta?
Speaking of entitlement... It is entitled to think that your build should have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks other builds have. And like I said, I think that heavy attack builds should have their place, but they should be better balanced, like all other builds.

And, doing heavy attacks with a lightning staff, Crit Surge, and magelight for the passive empower gives 70K.... no Oakensoul required .... the issue is the way that Lightning, and to a slightly lesser extent, Restoration staves interact with heavy attack support sets.......And, as noted MANY times, now, the rotation is just as easy, if not easier, than using Oakensoul...... and Crit Surge heals you, which Oakensoul does NOT do.... making it slightly more survivable ..... I have been using that one, off and on, for 18 months... and since, I couldn't load Oakensoul on that earlier time, even with a time machine, as the code would not recognize it.... then the issue is probably not with Oakensoul...

Nerfing a ring that is helping a LOT of people, probably WON'T change the heavy attack meta at all.... as you can get it very easily.... If I wanted to, I could drop my crit to 51%, from the over 60% I have, now. Still get the same healing from Crit Surge, and swap my one light set for Queens Elegance, which, as has been shown, results in 99% uptimewith empower in all combat... meaning I could stack even more stuff... but the rotation that that would allow me to match the "overpowered" Oakensoul build would be me hitting one button every 33 seconds..... which is what everyone is complaining about.......

Nerfing Oakensoul is like smashing your windows out, because your roof leaks....
18 months ago, I was doing this same type of build.... Oakensoul did NOT even exist at that time.... it's the way that heavy attack from Lightning and Restoration Staves count as 4 attacks in game... each can crit, etc. And, from what it looks like is that it is allowing other factors to stack .... in my research, it seems to be the armor enhancement from sets like Sergeant's Mail......

The last thing is the terribly mistaken belief that somehow, Oakensoul users don't do anything to get the damage... they do, they do the mechanics, I have seen it, and if they DON'T to that, they WILL Die....
Oddly, again, I don't see any whining about Oakensoul with 2-handed weapons.... which a good number of people do.... no problem there, as far as anyone can tell... it is ONLY with a combo that gives the same effect if it isn't there.

We can keep blaming one thing, for the issue from another.... but that isn't going to fix the core problem, it will just shift it, and the people that feel they are getting nerfed with get upset, deside they are being denied content they paid for, and leave..... it's not like the community is doing a whole lot to help them in any other way.

Auldwulfe

18 months ago empower did not give 80% increased HA damage, 18 months ago DOT skills had not been nerfed to be so weak it's disadvantageous to even use them in mobile fights, 18 months ago LAs had not been nerfed to the point of almost irrelevance. A whole lot has changed in 18 months, saying your build is the same is misleading when everyone else's builds got so nerfed the whole playstyle of a bunch of people had to change.

I've said this many times, Oakensoul by itself doesn't matter, it's interaction with HA builds on the other hand does.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Zezin wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

The thing is, any build requires some farming. Oaken builds are not unique in this regard, people farm things like Harpooners Kilt, trial sets, monster helmets and the like. But with any other build, you actually need to learn how to play it to do really high dps. Just using heavy attacks with oakensorc gives you like 70k, which is more than many players can get with an actual rotation. That makes the build much better than any other builds for the majority of players.
And it does affect other people as long as it is used in group content. Like any other OP build, it discourages people who play other types of builds. Imagine that you are, let's say, a dk who wants to improve and join trial runs. You practice for a while and reach 70-80k dps or so. But then you see someone collecting leads for oakensoul ring and instantly getting higher dps with no effort whatsoever. Of course, you can make a sorc and farm oakensoul, but what if you want to play another type of build? Or you have arthritis and holding down your mouse button makes your hand hurt? Or you simply don't want to be pigeonholed into strict meta?
Speaking of entitlement... It is entitled to think that your build should have all the benefits and none of the drawbacks other builds have. And like I said, I think that heavy attack builds should have their place, but they should be better balanced, like all other builds.

And, doing heavy attacks with a lightning staff, Crit Surge, and magelight for the passive empower gives 70K.... no Oakensoul required .... the issue is the way that Lightning, and to a slightly lesser extent, Restoration staves interact with heavy attack support sets.......And, as noted MANY times, now, the rotation is just as easy, if not easier, than using Oakensoul...... and Crit Surge heals you, which Oakensoul does NOT do.... making it slightly more survivable ..... I have been using that one, off and on, for 18 months... and since, I couldn't load Oakensoul on that earlier time, even with a time machine, as the code would not recognize it.... then the issue is probably not with Oakensoul...

Nerfing a ring that is helping a LOT of people, probably WON'T change the heavy attack meta at all.... as you can get it very easily.... If I wanted to, I could drop my crit to 51%, from the over 60% I have, now. Still get the same healing from Crit Surge, and swap my one light set for Queens Elegance, which, as has been shown, results in 99% uptimewith empower in all combat... meaning I could stack even more stuff... but the rotation that that would allow me to match the "overpowered" Oakensoul build would be me hitting one button every 33 seconds..... which is what everyone is complaining about.......

Nerfing Oakensoul is like smashing your windows out, because your roof leaks....
18 months ago, I was doing this same type of build.... Oakensoul did NOT even exist at that time.... it's the way that heavy attack from Lightning and Restoration Staves count as 4 attacks in game... each can crit, etc. And, from what it looks like is that it is allowing other factors to stack .... in my research, it seems to be the armor enhancement from sets like Sergeant's Mail......

The last thing is the terribly mistaken belief that somehow, Oakensoul users don't do anything to get the damage... they do, they do the mechanics, I have seen it, and if they DON'T to that, they WILL Die....
Oddly, again, I don't see any whining about Oakensoul with 2-handed weapons.... which a good number of people do.... no problem there, as far as anyone can tell... it is ONLY with a combo that gives the same effect if it isn't there.

We can keep blaming one thing, for the issue from another.... but that isn't going to fix the core problem, it will just shift it, and the people that feel they are getting nerfed with get upset, deside they are being denied content they paid for, and leave..... it's not like the community is doing a whole lot to help them in any other way.

Auldwulfe

18 months ago empower did not give 80% increased HA damage, 18 months ago DOT skills had not been nerfed to be so weak it's disadvantageous to even use them in mobile fights, 18 months ago LAs had not been nerfed to the point of almost irrelevance. A whole lot has changed in 18 months, saying your build is the same is misleading when everyone else's builds got so nerfed the whole playstyle of a bunch of people had to change.

I've said this many times, Oakensoul by itself doesn't matter, it's interaction with HA builds on the other hand does.

Which is exactly what I said, the ring is irrelevant ..... if it was the ring that was overpowered, it would show up on 2-handed builds, and dual wield builds, as those still do the most damage.......but it doesn't

I have said that the issue is in the way the pulses on the heavy attacks interract with empower, and with other sets and skills.... I get 4 attacks, 4 chances at crit, and 4 chances to proc off each single heavy attack I do... Heavy attacks with flame and ice do NOT do that... heavy attacks with Dual wield, and 2 handed do not do that.......

And, I will admit, I can only look at surface numbers from parse and play logs.... but that it seems that some of the sets are stacking within the lightning staff heavy attack........

I am not blind to the fact that there is an issue.... but if the issue remains, when you take oakensoul away, then the issue is, most likely, not inherent in Oakensoul.... but rather in what remains, which is the heavy attack, combined with empower, 4 pulses and therefore chances to crit or proc, per single attack..... and the other skills, such as cleave, factor into that......

I suggested altering empower to 60%, but that's not the answer that is wanted ... people want Oakensoul broken, and made as irrelevant as the travel garb you get in Belfiera Island, when you do the tutorial, there.....

And that will do nothing to fix the actual problem, although it will anger the people that paid for High Isle, and ground for the ring..... and the issue will persist.

I even suggested staging the ring, so that it goes down by a percent or two on ALL buffs, depending on how many people are in a party with you... so the Major brutality drops a percent per additional person.... in a 12 man, that would be down to 9%.... for that matter, do it to all of the skills, across all formats and options...

For example, Major Brutality gives you 20% bonus damage, minus 1% for each additional person after yourself that you are partied with.... that would be fair to everyone. ALL armor sets, and ALL skills set to the same standard... that works fine.

I am perfectly fine with that idea..... although it would end up with people getting vote kicked for not keeping their weave perfect... you missed 2% of your possible damage, and when combined with the nerf for having you, it isn't worth the value.
And so on... but we already have that with people refusing to run with certain others, as they discriminate on what gear they are using, or wearing.

Or we can look at where the problem is lying... and that is in the interaction of the channeled pulse attacks that are unique to only two weapons... lightning and restoration staves... and oddly, one of those comes up EVERY time Oakensoul is mentioned...... as again, no one seems to care if you put Oakensoul on a 2-handed sword and run around doing heavy attacks, and stampede. And restoration staves get a pass because they heal... yet, they had to be quickly nerfed in one of the patches, as they were becoming meta, due to empower changes....

I think Empower at 60% would work fine.... as long as it is applied to all sources of empower... fairly across the board. I opposed nerfing a single item that can be duplicated in other ways, as that just singles out a few players, while the rest are just fine..... that's it, nothing more.

When I first saw U35, I told my friends that it would gut the lower end, smash the middle, and the upper people would barely notice.... they already have the gear to get around the changes... and if they don't, they have the PTS cycle to practice and figure out what they need, and then go grind before the patch dropped, with the current meta, so that they have the new meta, already farmed, come day one.... and that is exactly what happened.... and a lot of mid and lower players left..... also predicted.

Nerfing one item is not the right option, and will just upset people... adjusting the skills, themselves, is something different.... but there is the fact that ZOS treats every problem like a nail that needs drunken nord hammer bashing to fix... so I worry that we won't get a subtle rebalance, but rather a biased nerf, or a one-sided, overly heavy handed slam.....
That will not work.....

Auldwulfe

maxjapank · April 2023

Wow! This thread still continuing? I won't bother reading all the back and forth since I posted. But I would like to say that after playing a Heavy attack Sorc build for a month or two now, that I am really enjoying it. It is by no means overpowered. And I would hate to see the devs touching something that is working so well for so many.

Bushido2513 · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Which is exactly what I said, the ring is irrelevant ..... if it was the ring that was overpowered, it would show up on 2-handed builds, and dual wield builds, as those still do the most damage.......but it doesn't

I have said that the issue is in the way the pulses on the heavy attacks interract with empower, and with other sets and skills.... I get 4 attacks, 4 chances at crit, and 4 chances to proc off each single heavy attack I do... Heavy attacks with flame and ice do NOT do that... heavy attacks with Dual wield, and 2 handed do not do that.......

This is slightly misleading. Yes it's a combination of things but the combination does include the ring to an important degree. The damage isn't a big deal, you get similar damage on a 2 bar heavy attack build. What you don't get is the 100 percent uptime on buffs and that's where the ring makes a big difference.

I'm not saying you're not aware of this because you posted ideas on how to deal with this I'm just saying that when looking at where the ring falls into the picture you have to take 100 percent uptime on buffs into account. Not having to account for them make a big difference in gameplay, as much or more than the damage depending on the scenario.

I don't think people so much mind the damage buffs of oakensoul as much as they might mind how much defense it gives in combination with offense.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Which is exactly what I said, the ring is irrelevant ..... if it was the ring that was overpowered, it would show up on 2-handed builds, and dual wield builds, as those still do the most damage.......but it doesn't

I have said that the issue is in the way the pulses on the heavy attacks interract with empower, and with other sets and skills.... I get 4 attacks, 4 chances at crit, and 4 chances to proc off each single heavy attack I do... Heavy attacks with flame and ice do NOT do that... heavy attacks with Dual wield, and 2 handed do not do that.......

This is slightly misleading. Yes it's a combination of things but the combination does include the ring to an important degree. The damage isn't a big deal, you get similar damage on a 2 bar heavy attack build. What you don't get is the 100 percent uptime on buffs and that's where the ring makes a big difference.

I'm not saying you're not aware of this because you posted ideas on how to deal with this I'm just saying that when looking at where the ring falls into the picture you have to take 100 percent uptime on buffs into account. Not having to account for them make a big difference in gameplay, as much or more than the damage depending on the scenario.

I don't think people so much mind the damage buffs of oakensoul as much as they might mind how much defense it gives in combination with offense.

I do understand that, but the defensive abilities are all minor versions... they are in so many sets, and small enough that a smart build can get the equivalent, easily.... and the ring can teach people HOW to do it... Crit Surge is an awesome ability, in that it not only enhances your damage via brutality, but if you can get it combined with savagery (easy in so many ways, and skills - some give it as a passive boost, like Magelight), then you are healing all the time... that will exceed the 5% damage reduction from the ring, easily..... and almost every class has a healing skill or morph that can do similar.... at the worst, you drop resolving vigor.... and let the HOT cover you....

The only reason Oakensoul would seem overpowered is if the person didn't know how their skills and morphs worked..... between passives, CP's, and set bonuses you can give yourself everything that you need and tailor to your playstyle.. yes, my sorc is a bit tougher wearing oakensoul, than he would be naked.... but I can match up my armor sets, morphs, and skills, and play to my strength, and exceed it with a one bar build...... and that one bar build exceeds Oakensoul..... as it is better tailored to my style, and works better for me.

The ability to use it as a teaching tool for newer players, or while players build up CP's.. is being overlooked, and again, it is merely a facet of a whole..... and not a necessary facet , as it could be done without it.

Again, if the problem was just the ring... then it would be a problem in 2-handed builds... and it is not.
Meanwhile, the complaints against lightning staves, where people blame the ring, are easily done without it.
To be honest, both with, and without, the ring, I can honestly say that 50% of my damage is coming from my pets and Daedric Prey.
I mean, honestly, every build online that is Oaken this, or Oaken that is built with Sergeant's Mail and Lightning Staff... other skills are different, but that is on every one of them...... there are a few bow ones, but most are built around snipe.... and can be built without it, just as easily... and they do have some sustain issues

Then, there is the one warden one, that is based on aoe enhancement sets, shalks, and snares to keep targets in the shalk damage area..... the ring is added to get people to click on the set.... it's clickbait, as it is easily matched.... the whole thing is clickbait... designed to get the outrage crew to start foaming at the mouth, and clicking in the revenue.

But by and large, it's Lightning Staff and Sergeant's Mail with Stormmaster or similar..... and the one that everyone complains about is that mix......

If it were just the ring, then sure... no problem... but the issue is more than the ring, and the good that the ring is bringing for many players is far exceeding any problem.... the people that don't like the ring won't like running with a heavy lightning build that doesn't use it.... what they complain about is done by a staff and armor set...ANYONE can build a 1 bar lightning build, using heavy attacks, and get the exact same thing, even if they NEVER unlocked antiquities or got ANY Mythic..... they complain that the build is too simple.... can't get much more simple than Crit Surge once every 33 seconds, and magelight once every 10... and just holding the mouse button.... healing at an insane rate the whole time.

The players are too tanky.... well, orcs heal by killing things, and an orc sorc is VERY doable with the hybrid making their racial passive add to magic, as well as weapons... they are better sorcerers than Bretons... tough, and tanky.

My preferred is Imperials... extra stamina and health... 2k of each, plus a general toughness... nords can get the extra resistance which matches what the ring would give to another race... let's delete nords they are too overpowered.....

I, personally, don't care for the ring one way or another, but I DO care that people are having fun in the game... a great number of people.. and that they are now being able to do content that they were denied, before the ring, despite paying for it.....

I am a firm believer in letting people play the way that they want... and a very firm believer in that the ONLY person you have a right to command is yourself.... demanding nerfs because you don't like the way other people play is the absolute height of elitist entitlement.....
You can see it in EVERY comment of, I worked x hours on parse to get a build, etc... or in, my build takes this work to get x damage, but it is just given to them.....

Well, I worked for months getting killed in delves.... and was told Git Gud..... so I did a deep delve into how every skill, and set worked... spending hours reading up on things. I put in my hours that way..... but I do NOT expect other people to sit and read page after page of that kind of data.... but in the end, I began to see how things work... how to use your off stat to pad your health, and then support your primary stat.. and a lot of the things that the upper players use to get things done.... most of it is very simple... once you see it, and know how it works, and you realize that the ring is rather overblown.

In the end, as long as one person is having fun with it, and it enables them to do content they paid for.... I will defend it. No one has a right to take away what other people are paying for... and they are paying... again, buying High Isle, most are ESO+, or spent a LOT of crowns to get DLC, etc.

That money keeps the game up for me, so I see it as a win for everyone......and for those people that want to claim that taking it away won't hurt the game... at this point, it would have the same effect as putting light attacks on the global cool down... and taking away the animation cancelling exploit.

A large part of the playerbase would suddenly be unable to do content that they could recently do... and they would know that they were still paying for content that was now taken away from them... so that others can gloat their way into it.... it is EXACTLY what a lot of people said after U35. Why should I pay to get less access .... because some elitist did x, y, or z? And now, they don't pay, or play.... but they DO still chat in a LOT of other forums... this one is very heavily moderated... something that is made fun of, in other places..... and they are telling people not to bother with the game... that the combat is still in beta.... and that the playerbase is toxic and elitist.

I have a Guild Wars 2 account I have had for a long time... and the number of people that are in open chat that state that they are former ESO players, and how sucky this game is, would surprise you.... ESO does not have the best rep .... and the combat system is heavily criticized in other places. It's described as broken, but if you scream enough, you can get your fellow players nerfed... which gives you a short term advantage, until they scream and threaten to leave.
The fact that this is the 8th thread started by the same small handful of people that are so bothered by other people's playstyles, that they can't stop complaining, has already cost players.... and more are leaving, because they feel attacked....

People need to understand, this fulfills the mission statement ZOS made
The floor is raised
People are able to focus on the action, instead of having their eyes glued to their skill bars
People are getting into more content, as it is more accessable.

In the end, ALL of that leads to happier players, and more subscribers.....
Let people play the way they want to... that is what ZOS said is also a mission statement..... and see where things go.
Adjustments are fine, but screaming for nerfs on other players will only end up with nerfs on you.... it goes around.

Auldwulfe

Elrond87 · April 2023

Yea its quite strong, although effort to performance ratio compared to light weaving, they should shave a min of 10k more dps off it and still gets the job done without takin the p*ss of someone sweating over a rotation for close numbers

Schared · April 2023

@Auldwulfe

Big text all- as some of these are repetitions of prior arguments I will only adress it very briefly, please dont interpret that brassness as sass.

The fact that something is a minor buff is irrelevant as both minor and major ones can add to a compounding effect that makes something overpowered. If you are interested there are some great videos out there adressing damage negation and how flt reduction interacts with armour values - I dont have a personal source other than my own excel spreadsheets however I strongly recommend watching any tank video adressing negation and just extrapolating your findings from there.

Two handed builds on their own are not problematic - the lightning staff had been used for trashsetups before, once more it is the compounding nature that is the issue.

The OP your responding too is somewhat right - it simply lacks a strong downside. Having a singular bar is simply not enough in the advent of literally tank, healer and dd buffs rolled into one.

It is not a teaching tool, as it does not teach any of the otherwise primary game mechanics. Ressource management, having to do certain mechanics, avoid damage etc etc etc

Sorry that a small group has soured your opinion on all "endgamers" from personal experience i can tell you that those who act exceedingly toxic are generally not part of the community everyone acuses them to be part of. Proper ones will extend a helping hand, refer you to different ressources or dismiss you due to lack of time and such.

I skip alot of the middle part here - tldr please dont acuse people of gatekeeping and entitlement I uderstand that it is many peoples go to and perhaps even what truly is encountered first. But I am attempting to better the games health without trying to shame anyone for the way he is building his char, nor by holding my old achievements in some sort of elevated prestige.

The game is not healthier and the concurrend playerbase is slowly dwindeling ergo their direction is wrong. Only reason why the numbers may appear elevated is because we are comming of the heel of a global pandemic - which gave all online services a boost. In comparison to its competetion ESO again performed worse than similar services. (source: steamcharts/google trends) Hence arguing that it is encouraging higher engagement seems a faulty argument.

While it appears a beautiful metaphor - they have not raised the floor. Simplification is lowered the ceiling if the result is high performing. Hence the lowered ceiling is crushing some peoples neck.

Overall the toxic endgamer stereotype appears to have tainted a great many peoples opinion and willingness to break into said communities on their own - let me assure anyone. Those who represent the very topend are dismissive at best but still a far cry from being toxic. It is generally the inbetween that is toxic as they are scared to lose their position and relevance, while many of the topend players are so established that there is simply no gain from pushing anyone down.

Additionally I would like to direct attention to the preliminary issues that are not clearly expressed in numbers but were adressed in the og post.

Schared · April 2023

Zezin wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

Anyone's opinion is valid mate. I do share the sentiment to at times argue with a wall, but it is often that people just dont have one's own perspective.

Personally I will keep advocating against the current direction as I enjoy challenge and the ability to distinguish myself.

My previous comment got flagged so I won't repeat it lol, yeah I get what you're saying but the fact stands. I see myself playing less and less with every change meant to slow down combat in the game, HA builds are just kind of the culmination of that I guess. If it weren't for the hype of the new class and the opportunity of playing something new and exciting I probably would have dropped ESO for good instead of just taking a break like with U35(where my main class got gutted) and U36(where a game breaking bug affecting a core mechanic didn't get fixed for an embarrassing amount of time).

Yes, I see the same thing happening to a lot of players. Yet there are some who enjoy that sort of thing.
There are obviously other changes that have been made to simplify - like the critcap and million-year-lasting dots - but one day at a time.

The flagged comment thing is kinda funny - I'll say its possible to argue for any topic- no matter how weird it is without being offensive - if using the right lingo.

Schared · April 2023

maxjapank wrote: »

Wow! This thread still continuing? I won't bother reading all the back and forth since I posted. But I would like to say that after playing a Heavy attack Sorc build for a month or two now, that I am really enjoying it. It is by no means overpowered. And I would hate to see the devs touching something that is working so well for so many.

Yea, it appears theres some interest in it. And I attempt to engage whenever I can to bring it into more peoples minds and start debates about it.

Glad your enjoying yourself - I personally find it massively detremental to the games health, player retention and overall enjoyability. But as many comments suggest there are some that also share your sentiment of increased fun.

To bad the forums do not grant a good overview of what is actualy going on as only a few people engage with the site.

Katlefiya · April 2023

Schared wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Wow! This thread still continuing? I won't bother reading all the back and forth since I posted. But I would like to say that after playing a Heavy attack Sorc build for a month or two now, that I am really enjoying it. It is by no means overpowered. And I would hate to see the devs touching something that is working so well for so many.

Yea, it appears theres some interest in it. And I attempt to engage whenever I can to bring it into more peoples minds and start debates about it.

Do not overestimate the interest. I only ever see the same few people participate in this and similar threads.

Schared · April 2023

Katlefiya wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Wow! This thread still continuing? I won't bother reading all the back and forth since I posted. But I would like to say that after playing a Heavy attack Sorc build for a month or two now, that I am really enjoying it. It is by no means overpowered. And I would hate to see the devs touching something that is working so well for so many.

Yea, it appears theres some interest in it. And I attempt to engage whenever I can to bring it into more peoples minds and start debates about it.

Do not overestimate the interest. I only ever see the same few people participate in this and similar threads.

Forum is but one minor avenue of opinion. The issue is that it is the only one Dev's may engage with. Other choice really only is producing exterior content and hoping its seen and I have the voice for a silent movie and the face for radio mate.

But ye attention is definetly split - as it is but one and perhaps not even the most important issue. Its just the one I chose to adress.

Bushido2513 · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I do understand that, but the defensive abilities are all minor versions... they are in so many sets, and small enough that a smart build can get the equivalent, easily....

Apologies for not addressing the whole post due to limitations on my end. This part was a bit misleading so I wanted to address it. The ring provides major resolve so not all defensive buffs are minor.

I would like to see ANYONE that can put together a build with the equivalent of the minor buffs of Oakensoul with 100 percent uptime.

That's the part you can't leave out. 100 percent uptime that the player does nothing actively to get makes a big difference in the power of a buff, even a minor one.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

Schared wrote: »

@Auldwulfe

Big text all- as some of these are repetitions of prior arguments I will only adress it very briefly, please dont interpret that brassness as sass.

The fact that something is a minor buff is irrelevant as both minor and major ones can add to a compounding effect that makes something overpowered. If you are interested there are some great videos out there adressing damage negation and how flt reduction interacts with armour values - I dont have a personal source other than my own excel spreadsheets however I strongly recommend watching any tank video adressing negation and just extrapolating your findings from there.

Two handed builds on their own are not problematic - the lightning staff had been used for trashsetups before, once more it is the compounding nature that is the issue.

The OP your responding too is somewhat right - it simply lacks a strong downside. Having a singular bar is simply not enough in the advent of literally tank, healer and dd buffs rolled into one.

It is not a teaching tool, as it does not teach any of the otherwise primary game mechanics. Ressource management, having to do certain mechanics, avoid damage etc etc etc

Sorry that a small group has soured your opinion on all "endgamers" from personal experience i can tell you that those who act exceedingly toxic are generally not part of the community everyone acuses them to be part of. Proper ones will extend a helping hand, refer you to different ressources or dismiss you due to lack of time and such.

I skip alot of the middle part here - tldr please dont acuse people of gatekeeping and entitlement I uderstand that it is many peoples go to and perhaps even what truly is encountered first. But I am attempting to better the games health without trying to shame anyone for the way he is building his char, nor by holding my old achievements in some sort of elevated prestige.

The game is not healthier and the concurrend playerbase is slowly dwindeling ergo their direction is wrong. Only reason why the numbers may appear elevated is because we are comming of the heel of a global pandemic - which gave all online services a boost. In comparison to its competetion ESO again performed worse than similar services. (source: steamcharts/google trends) Hence arguing that it is encouraging higher engagement seems a faulty argument.

While it appears a beautiful metaphor - they have not raised the floor. Simplification is lowered the ceiling if the result is high performing. Hence the lowered ceiling is crushing some peoples neck.

Overall the toxic endgamer stereotype appears to have tainted a great many peoples opinion and willingness to break into said communities on their own - let me assure anyone. Those who represent the very topend are dismissive at best but still a far cry from being toxic. It is generally the inbetween that is toxic as they are scared to lose their position and relevance, while many of the topend players are so established that there is simply no gain from pushing anyone down.

Additionally I would like to direct attention to the preliminary issues that are not clearly expressed in numbers but were adressed in the og post.

Thing is, I am not saying don't tune or change it... but screaming the word Nerf is going to be the issue....
We have an exploit in the game with light attacks not following the same rules as other skills..... and people have decided that is the only "legitimate" way to play.,.... and outside of a very few people, willing to listen.... it's all screaming about either taking away, or nerfing.

As for the videos you mentioned, yes, I HAVE gone over those... hours and hours of it.... which is why I can say that I can get everything that Oakensoul gives, without using it.... I had, and still have a 2 button rotation, single bar build that did not use Oakensoul.... and putting Oakensoul on it actually makes it a little harder to survive......and only gives 1 or 2 thousand more DPS.... not enough to be worth the issue.

Thing is, there are NO tutorials that actually let people feel the buffs, and how they work, outside of videos by third parties, online, that do more to confuse new players, than help.

And again, I refuse to tell others how to play... I WANT people to have fun, and right now, it is doing that......
I would accept tuning, as long as the tuning is across the board... if you minimize the skill off of Oakensoul, or reduce percentages.... then do it to all sources of the same skill.

And yes, I know about the numbers coming off the Pandemic... but you will have to understand that the constant threads attacking people for using an item provided in game has created toxic gatekeepers.....
I am averaging at least 4 or 5 random dungeons a day, and at least one of those will have someone using an addon to see if others have oakensoul, and will either whine the whole time... call for vote kicks, or just leave.....
I don't mind the last option, there are other bodies out there..... but it IS creating the toxicity...

All that is being screamed is NERF NERF NERF... ok, fine, I want nerfs on light attacks... they are irrelevant, and should be bound to the global cool down like EVERY OTHER skill --- or since they are NOT adding to the global cool down, should not generate ultimate..... since heavy attacks are designed to refill resources, all resources including Ultimate should be tied to it.... for fairness, and to help the new community. I guarantee the light attack weavers would have a screaming fit, despite the FACT that animation cancelling is an exploit... has been defined as an exploit, and U35, did everything to mitigate that exploit, except remove it..... to avoid angering people

Or... we can talk like adults and work it out.....
I won't call names, not because of the forum rules, but because I do not do the public shaming game.... but I have gotten huge numbers of private messages... how I need to just shut up, etc.

When I suggested revamping some of the older sets to include the bonuses, spread them out, and encourage wider build ranges... I was told to shut up. If the new players can't grind the "real gear" to use a phrase in one message.... they need to buy a carry, and be thankful a better player helped them.... and yes, that was said, too. And some think that condescending way of looking at newer players is somehow compassionate.... pay me, and I will consider you a valid player.

When I suggested modifying empower to 60%.... I was messaged that "it only needs to be done on that abomination ring..... anything else hurts the player base"...... the ring needs it to either be removed, or dropped to 40%... but not on builds that use it for other types of heavy attacks, in a rotation, because pushing more keys makes a build legitimate, I guess?

When I noted that tanks are trapped in one allowed build... sword and shield front, with ice staff back.... anything else, despite having taunts, or having the skill to hold and control.... it's not good enough, they don't have the one single allowable "real tank" build. I was attacked, and told that if "you can't handle it, then don't do it, and go back to overland" We need to take away one item, for build diversity, but at the same time, people better use the one build that is accepted by the "special players", or you aren't good enough for that role....
So, which is it, only one build allowed for each role, or diversity... people are talking out of both sides of their mouths, here.

The number of people saying that the ring let them get to content they never accessed before is FAR larger than the people screaming for nerfs..... and if you take that away, they WILL lose things they had access to, and that they NOW KNOW that they are paying for....... and why would any sane person pay for something they can't have..... especially when they know that the people that took it away from them are enjoying that same content that they are blocked from, but still pay for....
No, they will take their subscription money and go.....
I already know where a lot have gone, as I have long standing accounts in other games... and I watch them arrive, every day, saying how the toxicity of the upper player base, here, drove them to another game.

So, instead of screaming "generic nerf".... go for the real issue....
Dig into it... find the exact problem, and why... if the buffs are too powerful for the game, then they are too powerful for the game, across the board... screaming nerf is the same as screaming to remove all those buffs from the game
Yes, I do, and repeatedly said, I agreed with fine tuning... aegis is not needed, as well as courage... and a couple of others, and I don't know how many times I suggested Empower at 60%, as it makes heavy attack builds, using lightning or restoration staves, problematic.... and redesign the pulses on those, so that benefits that appear to be stacking on each pulse, as it seems to be happening, right now, only apply once per heavy attack..... that would ALSO fix a huge amount of the issue.... Again, the ring is perfectly fine in everyone's mind on a character with a 2-handed axe, sword, or maul... but as soon as a lightning staff is added, suddenly it's the ring that is too powerful...... it's the same ring, so how can it be fine, and be the problem at the same time?

Some of the buffs are passives that you can get for just slotting a skill.... Savagery and Prophecy, and others... so fine, add those to some of the older sets, revamp the way things work, as we already did a huge amount of it, with unifying skills, and mitigating stacking the same ones. Finish that process, and it will also mitigate a lot of this issue, while increasing build diversity. Meanwhile, nerfing a ring will just cause people to migrate to the next clickbait popup... and then everyone will be running that build.... and so on. Many, such as Queen's Elegance show 99% uptime for Empower, in combat.... so if high uptimes are a problem, then again, they are, by extension a problem in all of the game, regardless of source... so how much of your rotation are you will to lose with the nerfing of the ring?

But for a LOT of people, that is not enough, they want it removed, because it offends them... and by extension, they are venting their being offended on the players - and that is wrong, and toxic, and elitist.

Hence, use it as a learning tool ... explain to people HOW they can get those benefits, and NOT be trapped just using a lightning staff..... a LOT of people are going with the clickbait default.... because it opened the door, and it works.
I saw that, and it showed me a LOT of ways to blend necessary buffs from gear..... I do not need all the buffs on the ring, and can even do better trading some off for other things.... that was a learning process.....

One other, major, issue is the whole assumption that anyone who uses, or advocates for the ring is, by extension, either a new player, or somehow, not educated enough in the game.... the post I am responding to has that... with the suggestion of videos.....
I guess some of the content creators shouldn't be followed? I mean, it's their builds, they posted as clickbait, that are what is being followed...... I guess they are noobs, or need to go watch a video?

New is scary.... that happens for a lot of people, and it's new.... at least for 2 more months, and then this will resemble nothing more than a pig fart... noisy, smelly, and gone with the first breeze. I fully expect the "Nerf the Arcanist" threads to be quite glorious..... But again, won't get to the actual issue.....

Auldwulfe

PrincessOfThieves · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe

I don't think it's elitism. People just want build options to be balanced, for example, a build with a lot of tankiness and infinite sustain shouldn't be super strong in terms of dps. ESO is an RPG, and choices should matter.
Oakensorcs shouldn' have it all. It's a safe and easy build - that's perfectly fine. It doesn't have any sustain issues - that's a big advantage, but it's also ok in my opinion. But having insane damage on top of that is just ridiculous. It makes this build the best choice for any average player.
Also, no build should cut the difficulty of content by half (no need to learn the rotation, just need to avoid oneshots). It's a balancing nightmare for the devs. ZOS nerfed vamp+pale order combo, Asylum stuff on dks and many other things for this exact reason, and it's only fair if they nerf oakensorcs. I'm not saying that they should be useless or unplayable, I honestly think that heavy attack builds should be an option. But they should be in line with other mid-tier builds.

P.S. There's no point in comparing it with highest parsing builds... Most people can't do 130k even with golden perfected gear. At the same time, oakensorc is the same for the top players and the beginners.

And again, I have posted a build I have used for 18 months, no Oakensoul..... it didn't exist at the time, with roughly the same damage, better healing, and similar survivability and tankiness....
The issue isn't the ring, or you would see it in Fire Staff, Ice Staff, Dual Wield, and 2-Handed builds, and people complaining about those... it is ONLY being complained about with Lightning Staff in conjunction with HA enhancing armor.....

And the only staffs that have shown problems are Lightning and Restoration..... several of us have shown that in the myriad of, repeatedly posted "I don't like how other people play, please nerf them to make me feel better" threads that keep popping up.

It has to do with the way that those sets are interacting with the pulses in those two staves.....
As a joke, I made one without Oakensoul, only 2 buttons, one of which is once every 33 seconds, the other every 10.... can't get much less rotation than that...... and I used a Restoration staff..... and while I didn't have Cleave..... which is part of what makes lightning so desirable...... I was impossible to kill.....
I built for crit.... used Crit Surge on a Sorcerer, and between the guaranteed healing of 3300 every second from that, and the passive on the staff.....I was able to throw more into health... and at 38,000 health I started hitting dungeons ... on a parse, easily hitting 70k damage.... which is good enough, and in actual play, 32K or so..... which is FAR more than enough to count as DPS in ANY trial or dungeon......

And, my health NEVER really went under about 33k..... because I was healing so fast, and I Deliberately stood in stupid.

They need to fix the issue in the pulses with the heavy attacks in those two.... or all you will do is drive players out of the game, and the problem will remain.

In the end, it doesn't cost you gold, or crowns, if another person uses a ring to get more of the content that they paid for in their subscription, they don't steal your experience, and as has been proven, repeatedly, it is totally worthless in PVP.
Let these people enjoy the content they paid for.... you don't like it, don't use it. But the repeated complaining, very much, does feel like a combination of elitism, and selfish entitlement.

People are complaining that others can get to content they paid for, with their own subscriptions, without jumping through artificial hoops created by people that think they are entitled to tell others how to play. If the ring was a crown store item.... I'd agree with knocking it down.... but, you have to have purchased High Isle, several other DLC's or be an ESO+ subscriber, and have a minimum level in a skill line, and then grind the 5 parts of it... sort of like grinding for Pillars of Nirn... and you cannot even use it until champion level 160 and higher.... I can build a new character, get them to level 5, research the traits I need in a the pieces I want (which takes less than 1 day), and going to Clockwork City, build Pillars of Nirn at level 5.... no minimum level for that.

I have played with Oakensoul and I occasionally thow it on when a build I have doesn't seem to be working right.... it helps with tweaking those buildes.... but to be honest, my build that I referenced above, is better..... easier to play, and more survivable than using the ring.... it does NOTHING to help me in that one , and in testing it with other playstyles, I have, yet, to find one that I can't match, with a creative combination of sets and usually one bar.

It's a good tool for those people that are just hitting champion level.... and need a boost to farm the upper gear.... especially now with so many people ONLY running with their guilds.

I know, as I tank... my wait time in the queue rarely EVER breaks 1 minute, and I usually have a match in less than 20 seconds.... and I APPRECIATE Oakensoul one bars..... they can do the damage that they queued for, and are reliable for that...... it leaves me to do what I need to do in tanking.

It was those Oakensoul players that got me to run outside of my guild.... as I had gotten tired of the toxicity towards tanks, and like most, just started doing guild only runs..... Oakensoul got me back to doing random groups stuff... even though I don't use the ring, myself ......

Auldwulfe

But if you get better damage and tankiness with no Oakensoul, then why are you threatening to quit the game if it gets nerfed? By your logic, people can just use other sets, no problems here.

What you're describing is pay to win, not raising the floor or whatever. Literally paying to have an easy win button. I dont think its good for the game. At least with other DLC items you need to learn rotations and such, so there's a learning curve.

ZOS couldve just stopped designing content around the highest dps, and that would solve the accessibility issues. Having a paid crutch is not a solution.

P.S. Also, you cannot farm Pillar of Nirn until lvl45 (not in group finder at least), and there's no practical reason in getting it until cp160. Farming Oakensoul and Sergeant is no different from farming any other gear set, and it's arguably easier than some of them (perfected trial weapons and the like).

Auldwulfe · April 2023

I will give one more example, running as a healer we had a DPS in a vet dungeon.. and he was struggling, badly.
He had a build he copied, and was trying to play, but I had to keep resurrecting him......
He was staring at his bars... hitting the buttons in the order noted on the bottom of the page he got the build from..... and he had the gear, as he had paid for carries.... but he didn't know the skills, why he was hitting them, and was so focused on his "rotations", that he wasn't dodging, blocking, or doing anything else, but hitting his keys in the prescribed pattern......

How does that help? It would have been better for him to have used Oakensoul, learned the mechanics, and then built from there.....

In my experience, and I do play quite a bit, every day... especially in winter, as I live in the frozen north ..... near Buffalo NY, and yes, we DO get 6 foot deep snow. And, in my experience, the reason Oakensoul players seem to survive more, is that they can actually look at the screen, and work mechanics.... they aren't trapped staring at bars and timers.....

Maybe the screams of them being "too tanky", is more that they aren't overburdened with multiple timers and buttons, and can react in ways other players can't.....again, not the fault of a ring... but in the structure of the game, itself.

Auldwulfe

PrincessOfThieves · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I will give one more example, running as a healer we had a DPS in a vet dungeon.. and he was struggling, badly.
He had a build he copied, and was trying to play, but I had to keep resurrecting him......
He was staring at his bars... hitting the buttons in the order noted on the bottom of the page he got the build from..... and he had the gear, as he had paid for carries.... but he didn't know the skills, why he was hitting them, and was so focused on his "rotations", that he wasn't dodging, blocking, or doing anything else, but hitting his keys in the prescribed pattern......

How does that help? It would have been better for him to have used Oakensoul, learned the mechanics, and then built from there.....

In my experience, and I do play quite a bit, every day... especially in winter, as I live in the frozen north ..... near Buffalo NY, and yes, we DO get 6 foot deep snow. And, in my experience, the reason Oakensoul players seem to survive more, is that they can actually look at the screen, and work mechanics.... they aren't trapped staring at bars and timers.....

Maybe the screams of them being "too tanky", is more that they aren't overburdened with multiple timers and buttons, and can react in ways other players can't.....again, not the fault of a ring... but in the structure of the game, itself.

Auldwulfe

It is a mindset problem. So many people are coming from games where gear basically guarantees dps, and in their mind buying a carry should instantly make them godlike. In ESO player skill matters more than gear so a skilled player with crafted/easy to get gear (Order's wrath, basegame monster sets, etc) will do better than someone who bought a carry for perfected Relequen.
Many dedicated players actually find this aspect very appealing. You can see improvements without grinding for gear and gold and it feels better when you know that you did something, not your gear. I played other mmos where your gear is everything and gotta say that ESO' system is a breath of fresh air compared to that. I will not be one of the top players, but such is the nature of any online game: those with no disabilities and lots of free time will always perform better. At least I know that they're good because they practiced and not because they paid to win.

Oakensorc build goes against this structure. You could make an argument that it's an accessibility option, but what kind of accessibility option is hidden behind a paywall and not available to many players? If they wanted to buff weaker players, they should've buffed everyone, not only those who bought several dlcs and plays a very specific build.

So, if I met the player from your example, I would suggest that they practice a bit and look for a guild. Many guilds are hosting training trials and such and there are knowledgeable people who help others with rotations and builds. "Buy an easy mode button" should not ever be an option tbh. There should be easy builds, yes, but they should be in line with all other options.

Auldwulfe · April 2023

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I will give one more example, running as a healer we had a DPS in a vet dungeon.. and he was struggling, badly.
He had a build he copied, and was trying to play, but I had to keep resurrecting him......
He was staring at his bars... hitting the buttons in the order noted on the bottom of the page he got the build from..... and he had the gear, as he had paid for carries.... but he didn't know the skills, why he was hitting them, and was so focused on his "rotations", that he wasn't dodging, blocking, or doing anything else, but hitting his keys in the prescribed pattern......

How does that help? It would have been better for him to have used Oakensoul, learned the mechanics, and then built from there.....

In my experience, and I do play quite a bit, every day... especially in winter, as I live in the frozen north ..... near Buffalo NY, and yes, we DO get 6 foot deep snow. And, in my experience, the reason Oakensoul players seem to survive more, is that they can actually look at the screen, and work mechanics.... they aren't trapped staring at bars and timers.....

Maybe the screams of them being "too tanky", is more that they aren't overburdened with multiple timers and buttons, and can react in ways other players can't.....again, not the fault of a ring... but in the structure of the game, itself.

Auldwulfe

It is a mindset problem. So many people are coming from games where gear basically guarantees dps, and in their mind buying a carry should instantly make them godlike. In ESO player skill matters more than gear so a skilled player with crafted/easy to get gear (Order's wrath, basegame monster sets, etc) will do better than someone who bought a carry for perfected Relequen.
Many dedicated players actually find this aspect very appealing. You can see improvements without grinding for gear and gold and it feels better when you know that you did something, not your gear. I played other mmos where your gear is everything and gotta say that ESO' system is a breath of fresh air compared to that. I will not be one of the top players, but such is the nature of any online game: those with no disabilities and lots of free time will always perform better. At least I know that they're good because they practiced and not because they paid to win.

Oakensorc build goes against this structure. You could make an argument that it's an accessibility option, but what kind of accessibility option is hidden behind a paywall and not available to many players? If they wanted to buff weaker players, they should've buffed everyone, not only those who bought several dlcs and plays a very specific build.

So, if I met the player from your example, I would suggest that they practice a bit and look for a guild. Many guilds are hosting training trials and such and there are knowledgeable people who help others with rotations and builds. "Buy an easy mode button" should not ever be an option tbh. There should be easy builds, yes, but they should be in line with all other options.

I agree on a lot of that, except that armor and gear does play a part --- Dreug King Slayer gives a 20% damage boost, via brutality... skill doesn't do that, it's a flat 20% improvement due to gear... and it effects all combat.

In addition, by the logic of paywall, any gear from a DLC is then under the same limitation... which means ALL of the mythics.
As well as just about every trial set.... and even DLC overland sets.

Yes, you can see improvement from skill.. but a naked character will be outperformed by an optimized gear player, and even with just a few days practice, a mediocre gear player... or we'd see more naked fist fighting... (which, by the way, is a method by which you can kill dragons.... I have done it with people, and it is fun.... bring a few soulstones, you will need them)

I, too, have come from a lot of other MMO's -- I remember Everquest 1..... and I also, regularly play Arena, and Daggerfall...... as well as all the other Elder Scroll games.

One thing those other games have, that ESO lacks, is skill improvement by level.... yes, some skills get cheaper, or may do a tiny bit more from level 1, to level 4.... but the time needed to level a skill is minimal, at best... and then, the skill does the same for everyone, with the only difference being stat scaling.... which is largely controlled by gear.

Oakensoul is a useful tool for learning why the buffs matter... and as I said, I am NOT opposed to tuning it... but outright removal, or total nerfs would be detrimental to the game, itself, and the playerbase... at a time we cannot afford that kind of hit.... we have not recovered from U35.

Right now, it's a simple use item that is allowing people to get into the game, and not be trapped in overland.... I don't see why there is such a drive to keep that gate shut between overland and the rest of the game, until people have proven themselves to be worthy to walk the hollowed grounds of dungeons and trials.... no matter how it is worded, that is the final result......
Tweak it, yes... but if empower with Oakensoul is too powerful, then it is too powerful in every form it is used, whether Queen's Elegance, or from the Mage Guild skill......

If the problem is Lightning staves, and no one is complaining about a mythic combined with 2-handed weapons..... and you can build exactly the same type of lightning stave build without the mythic... then the mythic is NOT the primary problem with the issue, and nerfing it only hurts the 2-handed player, while the other players switch a few small skills... have an easier rotation, and lighting with cleave keep going brrr......

People are so fixated on "the ring is bad.... I don't like it", that they are not seeing the forest because of the trees.
I have posted, in multiple threads, the way to make a build with a simpler rotation, doing the same damage, and having higher self healing as a passive buff, than Oakensoul provides.... and it is just as tanky, depending on race.....

You are not getting rid of the one bar lightning builds, nor the flappies and scamps running around..... because they really don't need oakensoul to get the same effect.... the scamp pulls aggro, sometimes a bit too well.... much to the annoyance of my tank.....the matron heals very well.... and most of these people know not to try and take this into PVP... or they learn quickly, not to. But, the lightning staff, with any set that boosts heavy attacks, when combined with either Order's Wrath and magelight, or Queen's Elegance, and a wide variety of monster sets creates the same damage, and the same play style.......

That won't leave....

The problem is how the pulses on the staff work, with ANY enhancement.... Oakensoul just happens to be the clickbait choice, as it has so many emotional reactions, and content creators want those clicks... outrage clicks still pay them just as much as the clicks by people who use the build......

I want to get to the root issue, and tune from there... a blanket nerf isn't an answer, that would be like deleting a monster set.... it will just get filled by another, same problem, and same issue.... ok, delete Dreug King Slayer, as major brutality is a problem, and watch Rattlecage become the next set... with Major Brutality... slightly less crit, but more overall damage... it evens out, and the only people hurt would be the newer players that don't know about how to build around the nerf.

The assumption is that I am arguing that everyone should have oakensoul... and that is wrong, I am arguing that everyone should be allowed to play the way they want, period.

But I, very much agree, that there are balance issues.... and because oakensoul shares some of those skills that have the issue, it shows up in it... but it is NOT the source, nor end-all of those issues.... they go deeper, and the core problem would not go away, even if oakensoul did go away........

People are so fixated on the ring, they can't see the problem that the ring is only a symptom of.....

Auldwulfe

Zezin · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I will give one more example, running as a healer we had a DPS in a vet dungeon.. and he was struggling, badly.
He had a build he copied, and was trying to play, but I had to keep resurrecting him......
He was staring at his bars... hitting the buttons in the order noted on the bottom of the page he got the build from..... and he had the gear, as he had paid for carries.... but he didn't know the skills, why he was hitting them, and was so focused on his "rotations", that he wasn't dodging, blocking, or doing anything else, but hitting his keys in the prescribed pattern......

How does that help? It would have been better for him to have used Oakensoul, learned the mechanics, and then built from there.....

In my experience, and I do play quite a bit, every day... especially in winter, as I live in the frozen north ..... near Buffalo NY, and yes, we DO get 6 foot deep snow. And, in my experience, the reason Oakensoul players seem to survive more, is that they can actually look at the screen, and work mechanics.... they aren't trapped staring at bars and timers.....

Maybe the screams of them being "too tanky", is more that they aren't overburdened with multiple timers and buttons, and can react in ways other players can't.....again, not the fault of a ring... but in the structure of the game, itself.

Auldwulfe

It is a mindset problem. So many people are coming from games where gear basically guarantees dps, and in their mind buying a carry should instantly make them godlike. In ESO player skill matters more than gear so a skilled player with crafted/easy to get gear (Order's wrath, basegame monster sets, etc) will do better than someone who bought a carry for perfected Relequen.
Many dedicated players actually find this aspect very appealing. You can see improvements without grinding for gear and gold and it feels better when you know that you did something, not your gear. I played other mmos where your gear is everything and gotta say that ESO' system is a breath of fresh air compared to that. I will not be one of the top players, but such is the nature of any online game: those with no disabilities and lots of free time will always perform better. At least I know that they're good because they practiced and not because they paid to win.

Oakensorc build goes against this structure. You could make an argument that it's an accessibility option, but what kind of accessibility option is hidden behind a paywall and not available to many players? If they wanted to buff weaker players, they should've buffed everyone, not only those who bought several dlcs and plays a very specific build.

So, if I met the player from your example, I would suggest that they practice a bit and look for a guild. Many guilds are hosting training trials and such and there are knowledgeable people who help others with rotations and builds. "Buy an easy mode button" should not ever be an option tbh. There should be easy builds, yes, but they should be in line with all other options.

I agree on a lot of that, except that armor and gear does play a part --- Dreug King Slayer gives a 20% damage boost, via brutality... skill doesn't do that, it's a flat 20% improvement due to gear... and it effects all combat.

In addition, by the logic of paywall, any gear from a DLC is then under the same limitation... which means ALL of the mythics.
As well as just about every trial set.... and even DLC overland sets.

Yes, you can see improvement from skill.. but a naked character will be outperformed by an optimized gear player, and even with just a few days practice, a mediocre gear player... or we'd see more naked fist fighting... (which, by the way, is a method by which you can kill dragons.... I have done it with people, and it is fun.... bring a few soulstones, you will need them)

I, too, have come from a lot of other MMO's -- I remember Everquest 1..... and I also, regularly play Arena, and Daggerfall...... as well as all the other Elder Scroll games.

One thing those other games have, that ESO lacks, is skill improvement by level.... yes, some skills get cheaper, or may do a tiny bit more from level 1, to level 4.... but the time needed to level a skill is minimal, at best... and then, the skill does the same for everyone, with the only difference being stat scaling.... which is largely controlled by gear.

Oakensoul is a useful tool for learning why the buffs matter... and as I said, I am NOT opposed to tuning it... but outright removal, or total nerfs would be detrimental to the game, itself, and the playerbase... at a time we cannot afford that kind of hit.... we have not recovered from U35.

Right now, it's a simple use item that is allowing people to get into the game, and not be trapped in overland.... I don't see why there is such a drive to keep that gate shut between overland and the rest of the game, until people have proven themselves to be worthy to walk the hollowed grounds of dungeons and trials.... no matter how it is worded, that is the final result......
Tweak it, yes... but if empower with Oakensoul is too powerful, then it is too powerful in every form it is used, whether Queen's Elegance, or from the Mage Guild skill......

If the problem is Lightning staves, and no one is complaining about a mythic combined with 2-handed weapons..... and you can build exactly the same type of lightning stave build without the mythic... then the mythic is NOT the primary problem with the issue, and nerfing it only hurts the 2-handed player, while the other players switch a few small skills... have an easier rotation, and lighting with cleave keep going brrr......

People are so fixated on "the ring is bad.... I don't like it", that they are not seeing the forest because of the trees.
I have posted, in multiple threads, the way to make a build with a simpler rotation, doing the same damage, and having higher self healing as a passive buff, than Oakensoul provides.... and it is just as tanky, depending on race.....

You are not getting rid of the one bar lightning builds, nor the flappies and scamps running around..... because they really don't need oakensoul to get the same effect.... the scamp pulls aggro, sometimes a bit too well.... much to the annoyance of my tank.....the matron heals very well.... and most of these people know not to try and take this into PVP... or they learn quickly, not to. But, the lightning staff, with any set that boosts heavy attacks, when combined with either Order's Wrath and magelight, or Queen's Elegance, and a wide variety of monster sets creates the same damage, and the same play style.......

That won't leave....

The problem is how the pulses on the staff work, with ANY enhancement.... Oakensoul just happens to be the clickbait choice, as it has so many emotional reactions, and content creators want those clicks... outrage clicks still pay them just as much as the clicks by people who use the build......

I want to get to the root issue, and tune from there... a blanket nerf isn't an answer, that would be like deleting a monster set.... it will just get filled by another, same problem, and same issue.... ok, delete Dreug King Slayer, as major brutality is a problem, and watch Rattlecage become the next set... with Major Brutality... slightly less crit, but more overall damage... it evens out, and the only people hurt would be the newer players that don't know about how to build around the nerf.

The assumption is that I am arguing that everyone should have oakensoul... and that is wrong, I am arguing that everyone should be allowed to play the way they want, period.

But I, very much agree, that there are balance issues.... and because oakensoul shares some of those skills that have the issue, it shows up in it... but it is NOT the source, nor end-all of those issues.... they go deeper, and the core problem would not go away, even if oakensoul did go away........

People are so fixated on the ring, they can't see the problem that the ring is only a symptom of.....

Auldwulfe

I don't think you understand how buffs work... Dreugh king is a trash set as it gives an easily available buff that can be obtained with potions, oaken soul, skills etc... Also it's not 20% increased damage, it's 20% increased spell and weapon damage, which in turn are stats used to calculate the skills damage but in reality it's not actually a 20% increase.

Bushido2513 · April 2023

Auldwulfe wrote: »

The assumption is that I am arguing that everyone should have oakensoul... and that is wrong, I am arguing that everyone should be allowed to play the way they want, period.

But I, very much agree, that there are balance issues.... and because oakensoul shares some of those skills that have the issue, it shows up in it... but it is NOT the source, nor end-all of those issues.... they go deeper, and the core problem would not go away, even if oakensoul did go away........

People are so fixated on the ring, they can't see the problem that the ring is only a symptom of.....

Auldwulfe

@Auldwulfe

I too am in favor of play the way you want and the game allows. No problem there but I just want to say you do keep mixing what you're saying when you try to defend the ring.

First let me say I saw you say that you're ok with changing how the buffs work on the ring. Ok that's cool.

But then you say people focus on the ring too much because other builds get the same damage or better. Again this is fairly true.

But you leave out the part where the ring gives you 100 percent uptime on damage and defensive buffs. This makes the ring a powerhouse. I'm sure a lot less people would care if this was two items with defense and offense buffs split across them.

Then you bring things like rattlecage up as if that comparison makes sense vs an item that gives way more on the exchange rate.

My overall point is that there might be less argument if some of your points didn't seem to contradict themselves.

Yes we get it, the ring is not a self contained power house and has to be mixed with other factors to make an Oaken sorc.

But! The ring does make oakensorc able to break previous fundamentals of the game in a way no other pieces of the puzzle can.

Heavy attack was always a thing, the ring makes heavy attack able to ignore multiple fundamentals of the previous game design. That's what the ring brings to the picture all in one.

Take off the ring and you still have damage, tankiness, and healing but you have to play the game more.

Again I'm not against playing the ring. I just want people to be clear about what it is and isn't.