Heavy Attack Builds

smackinhippies

As a former healer main I can say that 3 DD's and a Tank were a thing well before mythics and healers were being left out of runs. My three PvE healers outside of Vet trials don't get used nearly as much. I started tanking a few years ago because of this and rolled some DD's and got decent with them. I will say when I pug a vet dungeon on my tanks (rarely happens, usually involves alcohol) I'm more relieved when I see it's three HA sorcs as I can expect at least the damage to be consistent and much less likely to be the struggle bus.

Billium813

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

jaws343

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

FrancisCrawford

jaws343 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

"Useless while blocking" is a very real and underrated aspect of heavy attack builds.

There are real offense/defense build tradeoffs as well. If I'm running Matriarch/Crit Surge/Hardened Ward, as I do for some fights, I give up a lot of damage. Conversely, something like Crushing Shock/Wall/Daedric Prey/Scamp/Matriarch has little defense beyond my self-heal.

jaws343

jaws343 wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

For example, I changed absolutely nothing on the build, same sets and skills, and swapped the lightning stave for a Bow.

78K damage with the stave
62K with the bow (on a really bad parse rotation since the timing of the heavy is faster)

I am absolutely certain that that parse, once I got the timing, would be closer to 65K. With no changes but the weapon. Obviously lower than the other parse because the SM build setup favors lightning.

With changes to the actual build set up, with sets that favor other weapon types and maybe a different skill or two on the bar that work into the timing better, likely going way more crit heavy with a MS/OW duo, I can probably get that parse close to 72-75K DPS.

Diversity of heavy attack builds is there, if that is what people really want.

jaws343

I'll add one more thing. People always say they want build diversity and the rail against the meta builds. But at the end of the day, you literally don't have to run any meta build at all.

I've literally been running the exact same solo two bar build (sans a monster/mythic set change here and there) since Elswyr. FG/MS with DDF now has served me well for 4 years. The build does vet trials and hardmodes, vet dungeons and hardmodes, solo vet arenas (all achievements), solo normal and vet dungeons dungeons, etc. And it has done so for 4 years and will continue to do so. It is not even close to meta, not even for solo content anymore as more proc heavy sets are better suited in most situations. But it works and nothing in the game is forcing me to play anything differently.

The meta is a choice, not a requirement to be successful.

Schared

I think the tone came across wrong --- it is that there are people that NEED to use it for accessibility to the game... I run with one that does......
Myself, I use it on rare occasions.... I am a 50+ year old combat vet..... and some things don't work as intended, anymore.... 30 years ago, I'd have been a top score pusher, had the game existed... now, I have bursitis, and can't raise my left arm past horizontal ....... on those days that my "rewards" for my younger activities rear their heads.... I may use it, just to get through. However, my stepmother does need it......

It was more that it isn't just affecting those that use it... you will lose a LOT of people, as many of those use it to run with friends, etc.....
Since my fiance' who also has arthritis in her hands, but just runs single bar, without it, as she can't do the grind, and I run with my stepmother... we'd be obligated to migrate with her, so that we can all still run together... and if that were to happen, then there is no point in maintaining 3 full ESO+ subs.......

Auldwulfe

Yea, dont worry, I got that, you just started sniping ppl ~
Alas your situation sucks and you got my sympathy but I still do not believe that changes for a minority should affect a majority. I would rather have accessibility features that make your interaction with the game easier rather than attempting to give a short sigthed upgrade for an easy build. Keep in mind that the setup is not inteded as such a feature anyway.

I'll grant you it is easy for me to say - and perhaps hard for you to take but I have to stand here and keep my point.
Also I want to repeat myself here and say that I dont want removal of the option to play heavy attack builds - I just think for the ease they come with they simply overperform across the board.

Iam not sure how your particular case could be handled but I heard of an interesting fellow who sadly has a missdeveloped arm and rather than using mouse and keyboard he uses a controller with all keys having double functionality. I dont know if that would help someone like you, but if you think it might I can attempt to get into contact.

Schared

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

For the same reasons I have listed before already - sorry its a long thread at that point but many skip certain points - on purpose feels like.
Because it discourages group play, oversimplifies and takes away from other roles and setups.

Theres a more detailed response floating around somewhere that also mentions the overall direction I find to be problematic however as I attempt to respond to everyone and my time is limited I would have you go on a little search on your own:
I believe if you hit Control+F and search for "buffs" or "healer" you may find my prior comment on the matter rather swiftly.

Schared

BaalMelqartu wrote: »

I really just hope that they come out with MORE differing combat playstyles so there aren't the two main ones we see now: Heavy attack builds and light attack builds. In my experience, whenever there are only two primary "teams", whether it be in the arena of this whole debate, religion, politics, ethics, etc, people tend to villainize the opposing team and then they start choosing their statements and arguments based solely on the egoic need to maintain self importance and a sense of self justice. I'm not expecting humanity in general to all of a sudden start letting other people be, so I hope a lot more options are added.

An interesting point, please understand that I speak for no community and rather attempt to find a middle ground. The "endgame" community gets villified alot while providing most information, addons and general help to everyone - alas I digress.

While I agree that they should introduce more interesting rotations and such I do argue here because the overall trend suggests the opposite direction.
There used to essentially be 2GCD rotations like Warden and Necro, Stack Rotations like NB and Sorc(stam) and then dot and spam rotations like older variants of dk and necro and jab-plar respectively. But as we just come of the heel of hybridtization which essentially halfed the number of specs played I would argue that the path we are threading is one of singular bis per class with an equally singular group setup that follows.

The whole thing about politics and narciscism may be overinterpretation on your part~

Schared

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I'm still trying to understand who is harmed by a PvE build they don't like becoming strong.

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Ingenon wrote: »

Thank you for the detailed explanation.

You want Oakensoul Sorcerer builds nerfed because folks in mid tier are using it. Not because it is the best DPS build, because https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards shows that it is not.

I like doing trials and dungeons on PS/NA. I use an Oakensoul Sorcerer build because with my hands on the controller and with my internet, I produce more DPS. In the groups that I am in, I see DPS using other builds. I have seen folks in my guilds post parses on guild Discord, so I know that they are doing more DPS with their LA weaving build than I do with my Oakensoul Sorcerer build. I think they should keep doing what they are doing, and I should keep doing what I am doing. Because the trial team will do better when everyone plays their best build.

How about the rest of you? When you are a DPS, are you bringing your alt with the build that produces the most DPS for your team? If not, why not?

I do actually have this setup on my sorc right now. It is overpowered though, and I kinda feel forced to use it.

All other mythics, even the best ones, have their own niches and downsides. Kilt loses stacks if you get hit, Pale Order disables other player's healing, Thrassian stranglers make you squishy etc. Oakensoul leaves you with one bar, but a lot of people are already playing one bar builds, and in situations where you have to deal with mechanics having less skills to cast is actually a big advantage. When other builds have to take care of both rotation and mechanics, oakensorcs only have the latter to deal with, effectively removing 50% of the difficulty. So it is an extremely powerful mythic with no real downsides.

I also think that it's bad for the game's balance when one build can simultaneously do high dps, be very tanky, have infinite sustain, and do not rely on teammates for buffs. Build diversity is already a problem right now.

On top if that, oakensorc is not a team-oriented build at all. I have a healer, and when I team up with oakensorcs, they just ignore me and run ahead. At least the usual glass cannon dps builds actually need buffs and heals. ZOS nerfed pale order when it made healers useless, and I believe that we have the same situation again.

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I don't do trial trifectas if that's what you mean by "serious content". But in vet dungeons and such it greatly reduces reliance on healers when you can just have 3 dds and a matriarch for heals.

Healers have long had hybrid roles of healing/buffing/DPS. My standard assumption PUGging dungeons was something like:

• Players would usually heal themselves.
• I would overheal to provide Major Courage via Spell Power Cure.
• I should stand ready for emergency heals.
• I should help with sustain, via orbs, shards, and/or Elemental Drain..
• Combat Prayer wasn't worth the trouble.

What of that is changed by Oakensoul heavy attackers? They don't need sustain (but the tank still might). What else?

That said, I'm tempted to go heal on an Oakensorc myself -- with a Matriarch of course. That could deprive my team of Major Courage, but allow me to do a lot more DPS myself. Or maybe a heavy attack templar. Hell, I could even do SPC as one of the sets, compromising my own DPS to the benefit of my teammates'.

How are people actually handling heavy attack healing?

Generally speaking the setup is tanky enough to allow selfheal through either hardened ward, surge or matriarch - which can be used in a spamming manner as the heavy attack setup does not consume ressources to deal damage.

In terms of how it works in a group setting - I recently did the new dungeon trifectas as both tank and DD - Necro and DK respectively and on tank everything seemed rather easy once the mechanics where figured out and i did not need a healer for scrinvers hall (dunno how its spelled ) but i did not get the chance to play the other dungeon without a healer. When on DD i used a standard melee mag dps setup which made me outparse my partner oakensorc assuming nothing was moving and all buffs where aligned however as soon as things where slightly out of reach or buffs fell off i usually fell about 5k behind it.

The oakensorc was also able to ignore some mechanics like the Halls-Spider Webstring on last boss as it simply could not oneshot him, while I needed to be freed as my character was simply not as tanky. Overall we would ahve gotten the trifecta roughly 1-3 pulls earlier each time if I too wouldve played and oakensorc.

Schared

I truly don't think you have ever played an oaken build based on this comment.

There is zero chance any DPS focused oaken build is surviving without healer support in serious content. At all.

I would challange that. Guess it depends on what counts as dps focussed but if the setup includes 1 utility ability and the tank provides a blood altar most content is doable as such.

Schared

smackinhippies wrote: »

As a former healer main I can say that 3 DD's and a Tank were a thing well before mythics and healers were being left out of runs. My three PvE healers outside of Vet trials don't get used nearly as much. I started tanking a few years ago because of this and rolled some DD's and got decent with them. I will say when I pug a vet dungeon on my tanks (rarely happens, usually involves alcohol) I'm more relieved when I see it's three HA sorcs as I can expect at least the damage to be consistent and much less likely to be the struggle bus.

Your definetly correct but it has gotten far worse and found its way in groups that formerly needed a healer. There also used to be the sentiment that "a good healer is no dps loss" which found some accord in higher tier groups at times.

Schared

Billium813 wrote: »

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

You may have misunderstood his argument, I believe his point was that it is not to be considered 2nd class if it is the best possible for a large part of the player base. Looking at the best is fair but if contextualized around the fact that those "best" are literally like 2 people total it becomes irrelevant.

Schared

jaws343 wrote: »

I'll add one more thing. People always say they want build diversity and the rail against the meta builds. But at the end of the day, you literally don't have to run any meta build at all.

I've literally been running the exact same solo two bar build (sans a monster/mythic set change here and there) since Elswyr. FG/MS with DDF now has served me well for 4 years. The build does vet trials and hardmodes, vet dungeons and hardmodes, solo vet arenas (all achievements), solo normal and vet dungeons dungeons, etc. And it has done so for 4 years and will continue to do so. It is not even close to meta, not even for solo content anymore as more proc heavy sets are better suited in most situations. But it works and nothing in the game is forcing me to play anything differently.

The meta is a choice, not a requirement to be successful.

That argument I believe clashes with your prior statements as I absolutely agree. Matter the fact is you can actualy do well on said setups still and perform adequately, hence an far easier version that demolishes so much diversity and role-relevance for both classes, supports and other setups is ultimately detremental to the advancement of the game.

jaws343

Schared wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

You may have misunderstood his argument, I believe his point was that it is not to be considered 2nd class if it is the best possible for a large part of the player base. Looking at the best is fair but if contextualized around the fact that those "best" are literally like 2 people total it becomes irrelevant.

That argument is senseless.

So, if the majority of players can only get 40k DPS on a two bar build because they just aren't that good we must then reign in all other builds because it just isn't fair that those players are average.

It's ridiculous.
A build should be judged on it's effectiveness against other builds. Just because a player can only do half the possible DPS a build can offer if they get better, doesn't warrant nerfing a build that caps out 30% behind.

And even then, apparently it anyone can just hit 80k at will, but apparently even heavy builds cap at 100k, even terrible players cannot maximize their DPS with the build as they are still underperforming with it. Myself included when I use it. Which isn't often because it is severely lacking for a lot of content.

Schared

[quote="FrancisCrawford;c-7843461"

"Useless while blocking" is a very real and underrated aspect of heavy attack builds.

There are real offense/defense build tradeoffs as well. If I'm running Matriarch/Crit Surge/Hardened Ward, as I do for some fights, I give up a lot of damage. Conversely, something like Crushing Shock/Wall/Daedric Prey/Scamp/Matriarch has little defense beyond my self-heal.

[/quote]

An interesting point however that weakness is shared with almost all classes and setups. Everyone loses dps while blocking - and most even take more damage and have an heavier ressource drain that oakensorcs - as they need those resources afterwards to deal damage while the heavy setup is ready to go no matter what the state of their stats is.

And again the utility abilities may have more slots, but they cost resources other specs use to deal damage and also require their space. Generally Id say on the oakensorc setup you can reach almost peak damage with a singular support abiltiy as 90% of the damage is in Pet-Pet-Prey leaving 2 free slots for utility. You could even drop the ultimate for something like barrier without ever losing as much damage as a dropped destro-ult or standard on other specs.

Schared

jaws343 wrote: »

Schared wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

You may have misunderstood his argument, I believe his point was that it is not to be considered 2nd class if it is the best possible for a large part of the player base. Looking at the best is fair but if contextualized around the fact that those "best" are literally like 2 people total it becomes irrelevant.

That argument is senseless.

So, if the majority of players can only get 40k DPS on a two bar build because they just aren't that good we must then reign in all other builds because it just isn't fair that those players are average.

It's ridiculous.
A build should be judged on it's effectiveness against other builds. Just because a player can only do half the possible DPS a build can offer if they get better, doesn't warrant nerfing a build that caps out 30% behind.

And even then, apparently it anyone can just hit 80k at will, but apparently even heavy builds cap at 100k, even terrible players cannot maximize their DPS with the build as they are still underperforming with it. Myself included when I use it. Which isn't often because it is severely lacking for a lot of content.

Iam not sure what argument you are trying to construct here, it would help me if you could drop the metaphors and numbers and perhaps simplify.
From what Iam able to gather you are advocating that everyone should do the same?
Because for me the beauty of ESO is that someones performance is determined by the player and their inputs rather than just by what their character is wearing.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

I'd agree.... if we didn't have the Pillars of Nirn Meta... or the build of dual wield front, 2-handed back meta.... or the DK Meta..... etc.

This game has a history of lack of diversity..... complaining about it now, seems a tad silly.

Auldwulfe

Auldwulfe

Schared wrote: »

I think the tone came across wrong --- it is that there are people that NEED to use it for accessibility to the game... I run with one that does......
Myself, I use it on rare occasions.... I am a 50+ year old combat vet..... and some things don't work as intended, anymore.... 30 years ago, I'd have been a top score pusher, had the game existed... now, I have bursitis, and can't raise my left arm past horizontal ....... on those days that my "rewards" for my younger activities rear their heads.... I may use it, just to get through. However, my stepmother does need it......

It was more that it isn't just affecting those that use it... you will lose a LOT of people, as many of those use it to run with friends, etc.....
Since my fiance' who also has arthritis in her hands, but just runs single bar, without it, as she can't do the grind, and I run with my stepmother... we'd be obligated to migrate with her, so that we can all still run together... and if that were to happen, then there is no point in maintaining 3 full ESO+ subs.......

Auldwulfe

Yea, dont worry, I got that, you just started sniping ppl ~
Alas your situation sucks and you got my sympathy but I still do not believe that changes for a minority should affect a majority. I would rather have accessibility features that make your interaction with the game easier rather than attempting to give a short sigthed upgrade for an easy build. Keep in mind that the setup is not inteded as such a feature anyway.

I'll grant you it is easy for me to say - and perhaps hard for you to take but I have to stand here and keep my point.
Also I want to repeat myself here and say that I dont want removal of the option to play heavy attack builds - I just think for the ease they come with they simply overperform across the board.

Iam not sure how your particular case could be handled but I heard of an interesting fellow who sadly has a missdeveloped arm and rather than using mouse and keyboard he uses a controller with all keys having double functionality. I dont know if that would help someone like you, but if you think it might I can attempt to get into contact.

Thing is, I have a build that is, more or less, a 1 bar build that does NOT use Oakensoul, and that I have used for 18 months, predating Oakensoul.... yes, I used Sergeant's Mail, and Lightning, with Order's Wrath, rather than Mothers, as it's a touch better, and Slimecraw.... with Crit Surge, Magelight, Daedric Prey, and both pets.... and with Flawless Dawnbreaker... entirely for the 3% damage from fighter guild, and I will put it on both bars..... I could go different, but I never used to use a back bar, but once in a while, I either accidentally hit my swap button, and don't want the interruption..... or I go into Cloudrest.

Crit Surge is once every 33 seconds... and magelight once every 10..... most things don't last long enough for Daedric Prey, EXCEPT bosses... and that's just a boost to the pets, and a 6 second boom.

It is actually easier for me to survive with this, as opposed to Oakensoul, as the pulses on the lighting, with a 60% crit, gives me the equal of 6600 Health Regen. And, as I have a preference for Imperials.... I really tend to be tanky, anyways.

I do use Oakensoul, once in a while... when testing a new set or build idea... I'll do it without Oakensoul overland and then a dungeon.... do it with Oakensoul, overland, and then in a dungeon... and then see which buffs and which things added and which didn't.... then I look back at my build.
For some, it doesn't even make a difference, as I already got the build right - other times, it will show me a deficiency in the build, and I'll look to what set / morph, or skill choice will fix it. For example, I put it on my Nightblade - first front bar, and tested, and then back bar, and again tested... and my front bar did worse WITH Oakensoul.... back bar about 5 to 10% better.... but not enough to really make it a part of the build, and I was able to fix it with a morph......

Getting to about 30K in a dungeon is my benchmark.... that's good enough to handle anything I need, and as long as the build is fun.. I'll go with it....

RIght now, I have a flame staff DK, and an Ice Staff Warden I am building and playing with.... and I am deliberately building them as specialized "Imperial Battle Mages".... And I am making sure that Occult Overload is factored into both... as both flame and Ice have very high status rates......
They, probably, won't use it... not because of any reason, other than I have already got a pretty good idea where I am going, and which monster sets I plan on using ..... But, right now... they are, more or less, one bar builds... both have only one different skill from front to back.... Force Pulse front, Pulsar back... as I am working on how those interract with other skills.....

However, there are a LOT of people that had been trapped in Overland only... that can now come and try new things... and those are the people getting attacked... and attacked by the same people that all use the same Meta Sets... the same Skills and weapons front and back, and so on.......

I stopped going to Battlegrounds, as I am tired of watching the suicidal flight of the dragons... over half the players are DK, and ALL of them are using Ferocious Leap.. because of the damage shield.......

Even in Dungeons... I have seen tanks get criticized for NOT having an Ice Staff on their back bar... the ONLY build for them is 1 handed shield front, Ice Staff back..... so claiming that Oakensoul is just the same build makes me wonder what game you have been playing up until now? ESO has always been "this is the meta, all others are not good enough, and you will be informed of that fact".....

Except now, there is a challenge to the single meta king build... by giving a second one that is just good enough for people to use ...... and you don't need carries, or repeated wipes in the newest dungeon, learning the mechanics, to get to it... which means it is available to the average player.
It will NEVER be able to get people into those top end dungeons, unless they are the people that could already do it by other means... but it does allow for the average subscription paying person to actually get some of the value they pay for.

Seriously, if someone is paying the same as I do... I don't WANT them trapped in Overland Only.... they should get all the content the cost of their subscription covers. Anything less is wrong... and I will always see anyone trying to stop that as a gatekeeper and making the game worse, not better.

Auldwulfe

Billium813

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

I'd agree.... if we didn't have the Pillars of Nirn Meta... or the build of dual wield front, 2-handed back meta.... or the DK Meta..... etc.

This game has a history of lack of diversity..... complaining about it now, seems a tad silly.

Auldwulfe

I'mma disagree with you on a "history of lack of diversity" because that sentiment HEAVILY depends on where you are looking.

Are you looking at the top 5% score pushers? Sure, I'll agree that the "meta" there has always been 2-3 variations on the same build. Classes, sets, and skills are super limited in the 120k club and meta chasers have had a severe lack of diversity. There is no argument from me there.

But that isn't even close to where I'm looking. What about the 80k club? or the 60k club? You could run a whole bunch of builds or sets or weapons. There are plenty of people that don't want to run "meta" builds and even so, most "meta" builds require insane skill and connection speeds to pull off their potential. You can't just put on a "meta" build and start throwing out 100k+ parses.

These HA builds are different and more nefarious. They are dominating the midfield in a way that is really bad for other players who are also caught in the midfield. I personally struggle with 2 bar. I can barely get to 60k, even running "meta" builds. I can't LA weave and my rotation is sloppy. I can equip a Oakensoul HA build and get to 90k DPS in 5 seconds.... I know, cause I have tried it and it really was THAT easy to do... And my gut reaction was "ugg, this is too easy! All the efforts been totally trivialized!". I can try 100 amazing builds posted online and NONE of them make me immediately jump to 90k DPS with absolutely no effort. It's like "why would I run ANYTHING else?!"

And to me, that's a problem when you're stuck in the midfield. There's no REASON to run anything else when the builds floor is automatically higher than any other builds mid. I'll grant you that the ceiling is also lower than the ceiling on other builds. But for players that could never get to that ceiling in the first place, it's a totally moot point.

I'm not saying I want HA builds to go away or be nerfed into obscurity. I just want there to be some competition that isnt: HA build or top 5% LA chads. Not all of us can get to that top 5% in the first place, so all we are left with is "run a HA build or just be worse than everyone else in the group". It stinks.

Billium813

Schared wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

There really are no strawman's being presented. Two bar builds put out more DPS than one bar builds. That is a fact, they are the meta builds.

What is happening is a lot of handwringing over "carbon copy" builds. Which is hilarious, because that is what this game has ALWAYS been at a high level. Carbon copy builds. You you don't think the kinras meta, or the whorl/nirn meta, or the MS meta, were not just every build running the same sets? Even the solo meta setups have all been cookie cutter. That is what meta is. The most mathematically advantageous build for a situation.

So yeah, maybe the sorc heavy lightning oaken heavy build is the heavy attack meta. But that isn't the games meta build. And it certainly doesn't provide half of the benefits that people keep claiming, like one shot survivability and magical super damage and healing and immortality. They die just as easily as any other build in the wrong hands who don't know the content. They LOSE DPS when they actually have to do mechanics, like blocking. Blocking literally stops the majority of their DPS. Which isn't the case for 2 bar builds that rely on more passive DOTS. If you are slotting any skill on a 1 bar build that heals you, you are effectively not even running the meta heavy attack build, are doing less damage on the build, and will still run into healing problems without support from a healer. In fact, even losing DPS having to activate the matriarch. If you somehow think crit surge is going to let you pass content without a shield to operate under, you are sorely mistaken. Don't get me wrong, it is a great skill for passive healing in PVE, but it only really shines when it is working underneath a shield. Because it cannot stand up to sustained damage from multiple attackers in PVE. It just can't.

And, if you really wanted build diversity, you could run a heavy attack build using any of the weapons you mentioned and be successful and clear content. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from doing that.

You may have misunderstood his argument, I believe his point was that it is not to be considered 2nd class if it is the best possible for a large part of the player base. Looking at the best is fair but if contextualized around the fact that those "best" are literally like 2 people total it becomes irrelevant.

Yes, this was my point. Perhaps I can't explain it well enough because it always seems to be refuted with the same argument that I was literally saying is irrelevant in the first place.

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

I'd agree.... if we didn't have the Pillars of Nirn Meta... or the build of dual wield front, 2-handed back meta.... or the DK Meta..... etc.

This game has a history of lack of diversity..... complaining about it now, seems a tad silly.

Auldwulfe

I'mma disagree with you on a "history of lack of diversity" because that sentiment HEAVILY depends on where you are looking.

Are you looking at the top 5% score pushers? Sure, I'll agree that the "meta" there has always been 2-3 variations on the same build. Classes, sets, and skills are super limited in the 120k club and meta chasers have had a severe lack of diversity. There is no argument from me there.

But that isn't even close to where I'm looking. What about the 80k club? or the 60k club? You could run a whole bunch of builds or sets or weapons. There are plenty of people that don't want to run "meta" builds and even so, most "meta" builds require insane skill and connection speeds to pull off their potential. You can't just put on a "meta" build and start throwing out 100k+ parses.

These HA builds are different and more nefarious. They are dominating the midfield in a way that is really bad for other players who are also caught in the midfield. I personally struggle with 2 bar. I can barely get to 60k, even running "meta" builds. I can't LA weave and my rotation is sloppy. I can equip a Oakensoul HA build and get to 90k DPS in 5 seconds.... I know, cause I have tried it and it really was THAT easy to do... And my gut reaction was "ugg, this is too easy! All the efforts been totally trivialized!". I can try 100 amazing builds posted online and NONE of them make me immediately jump to 90k DPS with absolutely no effort. It's like "why would I run ANYTHING else?!"

And to me, that's a problem when you're stuck in the midfield. There's no REASON to run anything else when the builds floor is automatically higher than any other builds mid. I'll grant you that the ceiling is also lower than the ceiling on other builds. But for players that could never get to that ceiling in the first place, it's a totally moot point.

I'm not saying I want HA builds to go away or be nerfed into obscurity. I just want there to be some competition that isnt: HA build or top 5% LA chads. Not all of us can get to that top 5% in the first place, so all we are left with is "run a HA build or just be worse than everyone else in the group". It stinks.

I've always been there, and Oakensoul really doesn't make a lot of difference, except to people that for various health, ping, or other reasons couldn't get there.... yes, it's easy.... but with all the combat changes, I don't see it being the only method.... just the first discovered one for players, right now , and it has become clickbait for content creators trying to get pre-U35 viewers back......
I have posted my build, that predated Oakensoul by nearly a year.....same effect, just as easy, and the ring didn't exist.... but the methodology did.

The issue is that, right now, it's popular.... but I suspect a LOT of people are coming to the same conclusion I am coming to.... in that, while fun, right now... it's primarily a breakthrough, and then you go from there.....

Let people play "the way they want" as ZOS has noted.... with "less having to zero in on their bars, and more looking at the action" also as ZOS has said they want.... and go with it. If you don't like it, then don't use it... no one is forcing you to do so..... and in group play, I'd rather have someone that can effectively do some damage, to people there who are just following along and collecting .....which happens a LOT.

But, in the end, there is a lack of diversity all over... my first tank was one hand and shield front, and 2-Handed back.... and kicked from randoms for NOT having an Ice Staff...... So it does happen.

But, as has been posted repeatedly, by a LOT of people... before Oakensoul, they could NOT do the mid-level game. But, if they went and got the ring, they are probably subscribers.... I'd say let them enjoy the game they are paying for.... because taking it away will take away their incentive to pay..... if you like the game, then encouraging players to enjoy themselves would be the logical thing to do.

Once they have played with it, for a while, they will probably move on and find something else to work with..... Right now, I am actually seeing a lot of people using it with 2-handed weapons... which no one seems to mind....
And I have posted a build that hits EVERY point the anti-Oakensoul people hate, without Oakensoul..... but somehow that would be fine.....

At this point, it is screaming "I want to Nerf the subscriber numbers".... and that is working. I have several people, just on my friend's list, who have gotten so tired of the attitude, that they HAVE unsubscribed.... so go ahead, keep calling for nerfs on the number of players......

Oakensoul is fulfilling what ZOS said they wanted....

It raises the floor
It allows players to focus on the screen, not on their bars
It is players choosing to use it, so playing the way they want to play - your stating you don't fits right in there.

Yes, lightning staves with things that enhance heavy attacks are very prolific, right now...... and you can do it equally as easily with, or without, Oakensoul.... and that has been shown in all of the other closed threads, as well as this one, the one in Combat and Character Mechanics, both of the ones closed in General Discussion... mostly started by the same few people who are upset..... answered by the same people explaining that, due to physical limitations, it let them play... lots of passive aggressive dismissal of people with limitations... to include openly telling them to either "git gud" or get lost.... and so on, or the infamous "I know someone who's only working muscle is their tongue, and they can use a special type of equipment... go pay money for that, because I don't like it when people use the option provided in game."

---

Now, that said, I am going to try and go constructive, rather than defending other players that also pay and thereby, keep a game I enjoy going.

Patience.... I see this as a start.... ZOS has brought all the skills down to nearly the same plane.... It's why there are dozens and dozens of threads about the loss of character diversity. Right now, the first development is with lightning staves.... which have the same identical effect if you remove Oakensoul. Nerfing Oakensoul because of the interaction of Lightning Staves and HA sets, is like shooting down all airplanes, because some people get seasick..... it really doesn't do ANYTHING to deal with the issue.....

Two - we have an entirely new class.... and I am pretty much expecting all these threads to completely disappear once it comes out. For one thing, it has to sell the new expansion.... AND, it has to try and bring back some of the pre-U35 popularity.
The card game failed.... it hurt the game, and is STILL hated by everyone stuck hearing "Here Ye, Here Ye"..... I KNOW players that have stated that they will NEVER buy High Isle, until the "Bimbo Billboard" is dealt with. It has been the leading reason that so very many people are going for 3rd party addons.... just to shut her up.

Thirdly, as has been noted in this thread... people use the Lightning Staff and HA attack set... and it works... I've had one for my bad days for 18 months.... Oakensoul did NOTHING to alter it.... but, it is boring. People will want to expand out of it, unless they feel attacked, at which point, they will stubbornly cling to it,,, and that doesn't help. I am already seeing this in game, as there are guilds forming for Oakensoul people only.... to get away from other harassment, they are guilding up.... which means less PUGs, less open groups, and less access to material for EVERYONE.

Let people play the way they want.... they paid for the game, they paid for access to those dungeons and content..... because their subscriptions keep the servers up for you to play on... and pay the salaries for the devs to add more content for everyone......

Finally, try being a positive influence ...... accept those that use it, and let them build their confidence and skill with mechanics and play... and then offer the help to try and do other things. Let them expand, grow out, and try things at their own speed.... let them have the joy of exploring not only the game..... but their own way of doing things. Will some stay with Lightning and HA? Probably.... some people do like that, and that is their right.....

However, even if you removed the ring tomorrow... the playstyle will not only stay, but will not even change all that much...... one bar, HA, with lightning staff is here to stay.... but those that feel like they are not getting what they had, or paid for.... those will go... and, especially after U35, we really shouldn't be advocating for people to leave.

Auldwulfe

H3rBie

HA builds are nothing game breaking, it makes harder content easier, yes, but at the end there's a lot more required to clear than just using HA builds.
haven't seen noob groups doing GH now and you also need to know what you do when you want to run vvh in less than 30 min with an oakensorc.

FrancisCrawford

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

I'd agree.... if we didn't have the Pillars of Nirn Meta... or the build of dual wield front, 2-handed back meta.... or the DK Meta..... etc.

This game has a history of lack of diversity..... complaining about it now, seems a tad silly.

Auldwulfe

I'mma disagree with you on a "history of lack of diversity" because that sentiment HEAVILY depends on where you are looking.

Are you looking at the top 5% score pushers? Sure, I'll agree that the "meta" there has always been 2-3 variations on the same build. Classes, sets, and skills are super limited in the 120k club and meta chasers have had a severe lack of diversity. There is no argument from me there.

But that isn't even close to where I'm looking. What about the 80k club? or the 60k club? You could run a whole bunch of builds or sets or weapons. There are plenty of people that don't want to run "meta" builds and even so, most "meta" builds require insane skill and connection speeds to pull off their potential. You can't just put on a "meta" build and start throwing out 100k+ parses.

These HA builds are different and more nefarious. They are dominating the midfield in a way that is really bad for other players who are also caught in the midfield. I personally struggle with 2 bar. I can barely get to 60k, even running "meta" builds. I can't LA weave and my rotation is sloppy. I can equip a Oakensoul HA build and get to 90k DPS in 5 seconds.... I know, cause I have tried it and it really was THAT easy to do... And my gut reaction was "ugg, this is too easy! All the efforts been totally trivialized!". I can try 100 amazing builds posted online and NONE of them make me immediately jump to 90k DPS with absolutely no effort. It's like "why would I run ANYTHING else?!"

And to me, that's a problem when you're stuck in the midfield. There's no REASON to run anything else when the builds floor is automatically higher than any other builds mid. I'll grant you that the ceiling is also lower than the ceiling on other builds. But for players that could never get to that ceiling in the first place, it's a totally moot point.

I'm not saying I want HA builds to go away or be nerfed into obscurity. I just want there to be some competition that isnt: HA build or top 5% LA chads. Not all of us can get to that top 5% in the first place, so all we are left with is "run a HA build or just be worse than everyone else in the group". It stinks.

I've always been there, and Oakensoul really doesn't make a lot of difference, except to people that for various health, ping, or other reasons couldn't get there.... yes, it's easy.... but with all the combat changes, I don't see it being the only method.... just the first discovered one for players, right now , and it has become clickbait for content creators trying to get pre-U35 viewers back......
I have posted my build, that predated Oakensoul by nearly a year.....same effect, just as easy, and the ring didn't exist.... but the methodology did.

The issue is that, right now, it's popular.... but I suspect a LOT of people are coming to the same conclusion I am coming to.... in that, while fun, right now... it's primarily a breakthrough, and then you go from there.....

Let people play "the way they want" as ZOS has noted.... with "less having to zero in on their bars, and more looking at the action" also as ZOS has said they want.... and go with it. If you don't like it, then don't use it... no one is forcing you to do so..... and in group play, I'd rather have someone that can effectively do some damage, to people there who are just following along and collecting .....which happens a LOT.

But, in the end, there is a lack of diversity all over... my first tank was one hand and shield front, and 2-Handed back.... and kicked from randoms for NOT having an Ice Staff...... So it does happen.

But, as has been posted repeatedly, by a LOT of people... before Oakensoul, they could NOT do the mid-level game. But, if they went and got the ring, they are probably subscribers.... I'd say let them enjoy the game they are paying for.... because taking it away will take away their incentive to pay..... if you like the game, then encouraging players to enjoy themselves would be the logical thing to do.

Once they have played with it, for a while, they will probably move on and find something else to work with..... Right now, I am actually seeing a lot of people using it with 2-handed weapons... which no one seems to mind....
And I have posted a build that hits EVERY point the anti-Oakensoul people hate, without Oakensoul..... but somehow that would be fine.....

At this point, it is screaming "I want to Nerf the subscriber numbers".... and that is working. I have several people, just on my friend's list, who have gotten so tired of the attitude, that they HAVE unsubscribed.... so go ahead, keep calling for nerfs on the number of players......

Oakensoul is fulfilling what ZOS said they wanted....

It raises the floor
It allows players to focus on the screen, not on their bars
It is players choosing to use it, so playing the way they want to play - your stating you don't fits right in there.

Yes, lightning staves with things that enhance heavy attacks are very prolific, right now...... and you can do it equally as easily with, or without, Oakensoul.... and that has been shown in all of the other closed threads, as well as this one, the one in Combat and Character Mechanics, both of the ones closed in General Discussion... mostly started by the same few people who are upset..... answered by the same people explaining that, due to physical limitations, it let them play... lots of passive aggressive dismissal of people with limitations... to include openly telling them to either "git gud" or get lost.... and so on, or the infamous "I know someone who's only working muscle is their tongue, and they can use a special type of equipment... go pay money for that, because I don't like it when people use the option provided in game."

---

Now, that said, I am going to try and go constructive, rather than defending other players that also pay and thereby, keep a game I enjoy going.

Patience.... I see this as a start.... ZOS has brought all the skills down to nearly the same plane.... It's why there are dozens and dozens of threads about the loss of character diversity. Right now, the first development is with lightning staves.... which have the same identical effect if you remove Oakensoul. Nerfing Oakensoul because of the interaction of Lightning Staves and HA sets, is like shooting down all airplanes, because some people get seasick..... it really doesn't do ANYTHING to deal with the issue.....

Two - we have an entirely new class.... and I am pretty much expecting all these threads to completely disappear once it comes out. For one thing, it has to sell the new expansion.... AND, it has to try and bring back some of the pre-U35 popularity.
The card game failed.... it hurt the game, and is STILL hated by everyone stuck hearing "Here Ye, Here Ye"..... I KNOW players that have stated that they will NEVER buy High Isle, until the "Bimbo Billboard" is dealt with. It has been the leading reason that so very many people are going for 3rd party addons.... just to shut her up.

Thirdly, as has been noted in this thread... people use the Lightning Staff and HA attack set... and it works... I've had one for my bad days for 18 months.... Oakensoul did NOTHING to alter it.... but, it is boring. People will want to expand out of it, unless they feel attacked, at which point, they will stubbornly cling to it,,, and that doesn't help. I am already seeing this in game, as there are guilds forming for Oakensoul people only.... to get away from other harassment, they are guilding up.... which means less PUGs, less open groups, and less access to material for EVERYONE.

Let people play the way they want.... they paid for the game, they paid for access to those dungeons and content..... because their subscriptions keep the servers up for you to play on... and pay the salaries for the devs to add more content for everyone......

Finally, try being a positive influence ...... accept those that use it, and let them build their confidence and skill with mechanics and play... and then offer the help to try and do other things. Let them expand, grow out, and try things at their own speed.... let them have the joy of exploring not only the game..... but their own way of doing things. Will some stay with Lightning and HA? Probably.... some people do like that, and that is their right.....

However, even if you removed the ring tomorrow... the playstyle will not only stay, but will not even change all that much...... one bar, HA, with lightning staff is here to stay.... but those that feel like they are not getting what they had, or paid for.... those will go... and, especially after U35, we really shouldn't be advocating for people to leave.

Auldwulfe

I'd go two-bar without Oakensoul, even on a sorcerer.

Auldwulfe

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Billium813 wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Auldwulfe

Billium813 wrote: »

Can we be done with the strawman argument that 2 bar builds, with LA weaving, are still top of the leader boards, therefore there is nothing wrong with HA builds as they are? It's like 1% of the player base that cares about leader boards and cares about the best of the best builds. It's like 5% of the player base that is score pushing with perfect LA weaving and chasing those numbers. Ya, sure, 2 bar builds are still more commonly dominant; that's great. Meanwhile, every Vet pledge is the same HA Lightning staff build. Every PUG Trial run is 9-10 Lightning Staff HA users.

The issue isn't leaderboards or top DPS numbers. It's that all the builds are the exact same carbon copy and all sense of individuality is gone from the average player. Everyone who couldn't reach 60k DPS before now knows they can equip the same exact build and go from 0 - 80K in 60 seconds (yes, ik, I've tried it quite easily and it's kinda disgusting imo). Can we get some diversity in HA builds? Where are the Bow HA builds? Where are the 2H HA builds? Why is Sergeant's Mail the only option (cause it abuses the channel damage from Lightning Staves the most)?

I'd agree.... if we didn't have the Pillars of Nirn Meta... or the build of dual wield front, 2-handed back meta.... or the DK Meta..... etc.

This game has a history of lack of diversity..... complaining about it now, seems a tad silly.

Auldwulfe

I'mma disagree with you on a "history of lack of diversity" because that sentiment HEAVILY depends on where you are looking.

Are you looking at the top 5% score pushers? Sure, I'll agree that the "meta" there has always been 2-3 variations on the same build. Classes, sets, and skills are super limited in the 120k club and meta chasers have had a severe lack of diversity. There is no argument from me there.

But that isn't even close to where I'm looking. What about the 80k club? or the 60k club? You could run a whole bunch of builds or sets or weapons. There are plenty of people that don't want to run "meta" builds and even so, most "meta" builds require insane skill and connection speeds to pull off their potential. You can't just put on a "meta" build and start throwing out 100k+ parses.

These HA builds are different and more nefarious. They are dominating the midfield in a way that is really bad for other players who are also caught in the midfield. I personally struggle with 2 bar. I can barely get to 60k, even running "meta" builds. I can't LA weave and my rotation is sloppy. I can equip a Oakensoul HA build and get to 90k DPS in 5 seconds.... I know, cause I have tried it and it really was THAT easy to do... And my gut reaction was "ugg, this is too easy! All the efforts been totally trivialized!". I can try 100 amazing builds posted online and NONE of them make me immediately jump to 90k DPS with absolutely no effort. It's like "why would I run ANYTHING else?!"

And to me, that's a problem when you're stuck in the midfield. There's no REASON to run anything else when the builds floor is automatically higher than any other builds mid. I'll grant you that the ceiling is also lower than the ceiling on other builds. But for players that could never get to that ceiling in the first place, it's a totally moot point.

I'm not saying I want HA builds to go away or be nerfed into obscurity. I just want there to be some competition that isnt: HA build or top 5% LA chads. Not all of us can get to that top 5% in the first place, so all we are left with is "run a HA build or just be worse than everyone else in the group". It stinks.

I've always been there, and Oakensoul really doesn't make a lot of difference, except to people that for various health, ping, or other reasons couldn't get there.... yes, it's easy.... but with all the combat changes, I don't see it being the only method.... just the first discovered one for players, right now , and it has become clickbait for content creators trying to get pre-U35 viewers back......
I have posted my build, that predated Oakensoul by nearly a year.....same effect, just as easy, and the ring didn't exist.... but the methodology did.

The issue is that, right now, it's popular.... but I suspect a LOT of people are coming to the same conclusion I am coming to.... in that, while fun, right now... it's primarily a breakthrough, and then you go from there.....

Let people play "the way they want" as ZOS has noted.... with "less having to zero in on their bars, and more looking at the action" also as ZOS has said they want.... and go with it. If you don't like it, then don't use it... no one is forcing you to do so..... and in group play, I'd rather have someone that can effectively do some damage, to people there who are just following along and collecting .....which happens a LOT.

But, in the end, there is a lack of diversity all over... my first tank was one hand and shield front, and 2-Handed back.... and kicked from randoms for NOT having an Ice Staff...... So it does happen.

But, as has been posted repeatedly, by a LOT of people... before Oakensoul, they could NOT do the mid-level game. But, if they went and got the ring, they are probably subscribers.... I'd say let them enjoy the game they are paying for.... because taking it away will take away their incentive to pay..... if you like the game, then encouraging players to enjoy themselves would be the logical thing to do.

Once they have played with it, for a while, they will probably move on and find something else to work with..... Right now, I am actually seeing a lot of people using it with 2-handed weapons... which no one seems to mind....
And I have posted a build that hits EVERY point the anti-Oakensoul people hate, without Oakensoul..... but somehow that would be fine.....

At this point, it is screaming "I want to Nerf the subscriber numbers".... and that is working. I have several people, just on my friend's list, who have gotten so tired of the attitude, that they HAVE unsubscribed.... so go ahead, keep calling for nerfs on the number of players......

Oakensoul is fulfilling what ZOS said they wanted....

It raises the floor
It allows players to focus on the screen, not on their bars
It is players choosing to use it, so playing the way they want to play - your stating you don't fits right in there.

Yes, lightning staves with things that enhance heavy attacks are very prolific, right now...... and you can do it equally as easily with, or without, Oakensoul.... and that has been shown in all of the other closed threads, as well as this one, the one in Combat and Character Mechanics, both of the ones closed in General Discussion... mostly started by the same few people who are upset..... answered by the same people explaining that, due to physical limitations, it let them play... lots of passive aggressive dismissal of people with limitations... to include openly telling them to either "git gud" or get lost.... and so on, or the infamous "I know someone who's only working muscle is their tongue, and they can use a special type of equipment... go pay money for that, because I don't like it when people use the option provided in game."

---

Now, that said, I am going to try and go constructive, rather than defending other players that also pay and thereby, keep a game I enjoy going.

Patience.... I see this as a start.... ZOS has brought all the skills down to nearly the same plane.... It's why there are dozens and dozens of threads about the loss of character diversity. Right now, the first development is with lightning staves.... which have the same identical effect if you remove Oakensoul. Nerfing Oakensoul because of the interaction of Lightning Staves and HA sets, is like shooting down all airplanes, because some people get seasick..... it really doesn't do ANYTHING to deal with the issue.....

Two - we have an entirely new class.... and I am pretty much expecting all these threads to completely disappear once it comes out. For one thing, it has to sell the new expansion.... AND, it has to try and bring back some of the pre-U35 popularity.
The card game failed.... it hurt the game, and is STILL hated by everyone stuck hearing "Here Ye, Here Ye"..... I KNOW players that have stated that they will NEVER buy High Isle, until the "Bimbo Billboard" is dealt with. It has been the leading reason that so very many people are going for 3rd party addons.... just to shut her up.

Thirdly, as has been noted in this thread... people use the Lightning Staff and HA attack set... and it works... I've had one for my bad days for 18 months.... Oakensoul did NOTHING to alter it.... but, it is boring. People will want to expand out of it, unless they feel attacked, at which point, they will stubbornly cling to it,,, and that doesn't help. I am already seeing this in game, as there are guilds forming for Oakensoul people only.... to get away from other harassment, they are guilding up.... which means less PUGs, less open groups, and less access to material for EVERYONE.

Let people play the way they want.... they paid for the game, they paid for access to those dungeons and content..... because their subscriptions keep the servers up for you to play on... and pay the salaries for the devs to add more content for everyone......

Finally, try being a positive influence ...... accept those that use it, and let them build their confidence and skill with mechanics and play... and then offer the help to try and do other things. Let them expand, grow out, and try things at their own speed.... let them have the joy of exploring not only the game..... but their own way of doing things. Will some stay with Lightning and HA? Probably.... some people do like that, and that is their right.....

However, even if you removed the ring tomorrow... the playstyle will not only stay, but will not even change all that much...... one bar, HA, with lightning staff is here to stay.... but those that feel like they are not getting what they had, or paid for.... those will go... and, especially after U35, we really shouldn't be advocating for people to leave.

Auldwulfe

I'd go two-bar without Oakensoul, even on a sorcerer.

It was my first character.... and I was learning on it..... and it's my go to when my physical issues are acting up.
Depending on the character, I use one or two bars... although some are only barely .... maybe one skill difference between bars... for specific reasons.


Auldwulfe

Schared

@Auldwulfe
Mh, I dont think a sub-fee entitles one to all content rather it does enable to enjoy it - also ESO+ isnt mandatory so idk.
It reads alot like "I want it to be given to me." which clashes with anything that is designed to challenge and rewards.

Iam oversimplifying but I bet your smelling what Iam selling.

Schared

H3rBie wrote: »

HA builds are nothing game breaking, it makes harder content easier, yes, but at the end there's a lot more required to clear than just using HA builds.
haven't seen noob groups doing GH now and you also need to know what you do when you want to run vvh in less than 30 min with an oakensorc.

Obviously thats like a definition game and such. Suffice to say that "noob groups" have done GH, IR and such now and perhaps in the same vein - carry runners have put that stuff on farm due to the increased ease.

Ingenon

Schared wrote: »

H3rBie wrote: »

HA builds are nothing game breaking, it makes harder content easier, yes, but at the end there's a lot more required to clear than just using HA builds.
haven't seen noob groups doing GH now and you also need to know what you do when you want to run vvh in less than 30 min with an oakensorc.

Obviously thats like a definition game and such. Suffice to say that "noob groups" have done GH, IR and such now and perhaps in the same vein - carry runners have put that stuff on farm due to the increased ease.

Please define "noob". I think your definition is "anyone who is using a HA build". While I think a noob is someone new to the game, who just started playing. If someone plays the game long enough to grind the skills, unlock the set pieces, craft the gear, and learn to play a build, by my definition that person is not a "noob", whether they finally end up playing a LA weaving build that has the potential to do 130k+ DPS on a trial dummy, or a HA build that will at best do 30% less damage on a trial dummy. And of course after settling on a build, the player still needs to learn the mechanics in order to complete veteran PvE content. So again, I think that a person who grinds all the gear needed for a build, and learns the PvE trail/dungeon/arena mechanics is not a "noob", no matter what build they are using.

Schared wrote: »

@Auldwulfe
Mh, I dont think a sub-fee entitles one to all content rather it does enable to enjoy it - also ESO+ isnt mandatory so idk.
It reads alot like "I want it to be given to me." which clashes with anything that is designed to challenge and rewards.

Iam oversimplifying but I bet your smelling what Iam selling.

Please define "challenge". I think that you believe that challenge is "learn to play the way I play", and I believe that you play a LA weaving build. I believe challenge involves figuring out what it takes to achieve a goal, and then doing the work required to get it. Which has nothing to do with build, in my opinion. Players have to do all the work of grinding the skills and sets to craft whatever build they pick. And then learn the mechanics of whatever veteran trial/dungeon/arena that are working towards clearing. I think that most of the work is the same no matter what build someone picks. It sounds to me like you do not want anyone to get rewards unless they play the way you play. Separately, ESO advertises "Play As You Want". I think ESO is right, and I am fine with having multiple builds to pick from in order to achieve rewards.

Heavy Attack builds do not need nerfed. They do less damage in PvE group play than a well played LA weaving build. Top scoring PvE raids are not made up of only Heavy Attack builds. See https://eso-hub.com/en/leaderboards for proof.

Have you tried both LA weaving builds and Heavy Attack builds (like Oakensoul Sorcerer build)? Which build do you parse higher with on a trial dummy? I know that top DPS players get a higher score with LA weaving builds. I also know that I do not, and that I get a higher parse with an Oakensoul Sorcerer build. So I play an Oakensoul Sorcerer build for group PvE.

Are you playing the DPS build that you play best when you are grouped? If not, why not?

Zezin

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

Auldwulfe

Zezin wrote: »

Wow you guys are going wild lol, I'm just waiting for PTS, can't change these people's minds.

The longer it goes on, the more and more it feels like people that want to be elitists, that are upset over other people lacking the right quality, entering what they believe is their country club..... they feel they are entitled to demand that these new people jump through hoops, or they are not worthy to enter the hollowed grounds,,,,,

Despite facts to the contrary... the same arguments keep getting regurgitated......and the demands to prove your worthiness to be in Trials or dungeons keeps getting demanded..... You can go through thread after thread.... nerf this mythic, nerf this skill, I hate this potion... and so on. There's another one wanting to Nerf stealth skills..... and so on... it gets tiring.

I would suggest that people just let other people play.... no one is forced to play a specific way... although some people want nerfs to force others to play their way, claiming a lack of diversity.... while demanding that everyone play the same.....
Not only is this counterintuitive, but in the end, the only person anyone can make demands on, is themselves......

If you don't like Oakensoul, then just don't use it.... it's no one's business what you use, or how you play.... if it works for you, then just go ahead and enjoy how you play. If you discover that combining a light damage set with something like sword dancer works awesome.... then enjoy it as much as you can.... and yes, I am messing around with ideas like that with my dual wield Templar... and thinking of Pale Order, with it. Boosted light attacks, with Flurry, and maybe spin.... and healing off of all of it..... oh the horrors.

And for people that can't stand how others play... form a guild and list all the styles and classes you don't allow, up front, so that people that play their own way know to not try and join. Simple solution for everyone. People can play the way they want... and those that want only certain methods or classes can run with like minded people.... play the way THEY want..... and everyone is happy. Trust me, the game is big enough to handle this... and if your group ends up very tiny... then maybe that thinking isn't as popular as anyone thought.

Auldwulfe