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Heavy Attack Builds
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Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭PrincessOfThieves wrote: »I will give one more example, running as a healer we had a DPS in a vet dungeon.. and he was struggling, badly.
He had a build he copied, and was trying to play, but I had to keep resurrecting him......
He was staring at his bars... hitting the buttons in the order noted on the bottom of the page he got the build from..... and he had the gear, as he had paid for carries.... but he didn't know the skills, why he was hitting them, and was so focused on his "rotations", that he wasn't dodging, blocking, or doing anything else, but hitting his keys in the prescribed pattern......
How does that help? It would have been better for him to have used Oakensoul, learned the mechanics, and then built from there.....
In my experience, and I do play quite a bit, every day... especially in winter, as I live in the frozen north ..... near Buffalo NY, and yes, we DO get 6 foot deep snow. And, in my experience, the reason Oakensoul players seem to survive more, is that they can actually look at the screen, and work mechanics.... they aren't trapped staring at bars and timers.....
Maybe the screams of them being "too tanky", is more that they aren't overburdened with multiple timers and buttons, and can react in ways other players can't.....again, not the fault of a ring... but in the structure of the game, itself.
Auldwulfe
It is a mindset problem. So many people are coming from games where gear basically guarantees dps, and in their mind buying a carry should instantly make them godlike. In ESO player skill matters more than gear so a skilled player with crafted/easy to get gear (Order's wrath, basegame monster sets, etc) will do better than someone who bought a carry for perfected Relequen.
Many dedicated players actually find this aspect very appealing. You can see improvements without grinding for gear and gold and it feels better when you know that you did something, not your gear. I played other mmos where your gear is everything and gotta say that ESO' system is a breath of fresh air compared to that. I will not be one of the top players, but such is the nature of any online game: those with no disabilities and lots of free time will always perform better. At least I know that they're good because they practiced and not because they paid to win.
Oakensorc build goes against this structure. You could make an argument that it's an accessibility option, but what kind of accessibility option is hidden behind a paywall and not available to many players? If they wanted to buff weaker players, they should've buffed everyone, not only those who bought several dlcs and plays a very specific build.
So, if I met the player from your example, I would suggest that they practice a bit and look for a guild. Many guilds are hosting training trials and such and there are knowledgeable people who help others with rotations and builds. "Buy an easy mode button" should not ever be an option tbh. There should be easy builds, yes, but they should be in line with all other options.
I agree on a lot of that, except that armor and gear does play a part --- Dreug King Slayer gives a 20% damage boost, via brutality... skill doesn't do that, it's a flat 20% improvement due to gear... and it effects all combat.
In addition, by the logic of paywall, any gear from a DLC is then under the same limitation... which means ALL of the mythics.
As well as just about every trial set.... and even DLC overland sets.
Yes, you can see improvement from skill.. but a naked character will be outperformed by an optimized gear player, and even with just a few days practice, a mediocre gear player... or we'd see more naked fist fighting... (which, by the way, is a method by which you can kill dragons.... I have done it with people, and it is fun.... bring a few soulstones, you will need them)
I, too, have come from a lot of other MMO's -- I remember Everquest 1..... and I also, regularly play Arena, and Daggerfall...... as well as all the other Elder Scroll games.
One thing those other games have, that ESO lacks, is skill improvement by level.... yes, some skills get cheaper, or may do a tiny bit more from level 1, to level 4.... but the time needed to level a skill is minimal, at best... and then, the skill does the same for everyone, with the only difference being stat scaling.... which is largely controlled by gear.
Oakensoul is a useful tool for learning why the buffs matter... and as I said, I am NOT opposed to tuning it... but outright removal, or total nerfs would be detrimental to the game, itself, and the playerbase... at a time we cannot afford that kind of hit.... we have not recovered from U35.
Right now, it's a simple use item that is allowing people to get into the game, and not be trapped in overland.... I don't see why there is such a drive to keep that gate shut between overland and the rest of the game, until people have proven themselves to be worthy to walk the hollowed grounds of dungeons and trials.... no matter how it is worded, that is the final result......
Tweak it, yes... but if empower with Oakensoul is too powerful, then it is too powerful in every form it is used, whether Queen's Elegance, or from the Mage Guild skill......
If the problem is Lightning staves, and no one is complaining about a mythic combined with 2-handed weapons..... and you can build exactly the same type of lightning stave build without the mythic... then the mythic is NOT the primary problem with the issue, and nerfing it only hurts the 2-handed player, while the other players switch a few small skills... have an easier rotation, and lighting with cleave keep going brrr......
People are so fixated on "the ring is bad.... I don't like it", that they are not seeing the forest because of the trees.
I have posted, in multiple threads, the way to make a build with a simpler rotation, doing the same damage, and having higher self healing as a passive buff, than Oakensoul provides.... and it is just as tanky, depending on race.....
You are not getting rid of the one bar lightning builds, nor the flappies and scamps running around..... because they really don't need oakensoul to get the same effect.... the scamp pulls aggro, sometimes a bit too well.... much to the annoyance of my tank.....the matron heals very well.... and most of these people know not to try and take this into PVP... or they learn quickly, not to. But, the lightning staff, with any set that boosts heavy attacks, when combined with either Order's Wrath and magelight, or Queen's Elegance, and a wide variety of monster sets creates the same damage, and the same play style.......
That won't leave....
The problem is how the pulses on the staff work, with ANY enhancement.... Oakensoul just happens to be the clickbait choice, as it has so many emotional reactions, and content creators want those clicks... outrage clicks still pay them just as much as the clicks by people who use the build......
I want to get to the root issue, and tune from there... a blanket nerf isn't an answer, that would be like deleting a monster set.... it will just get filled by another, same problem, and same issue.... ok, delete Dreug King Slayer, as major brutality is a problem, and watch Rattlecage become the next set... with Major Brutality... slightly less crit, but more overall damage... it evens out, and the only people hurt would be the newer players that don't know about how to build around the nerf.
The assumption is that I am arguing that everyone should have oakensoul... and that is wrong, I am arguing that everyone should be allowed to play the way they want, period.
But I, very much agree, that there are balance issues.... and because oakensoul shares some of those skills that have the issue, it shows up in it... but it is NOT the source, nor end-all of those issues.... they go deeper, and the core problem would not go away, even if oakensoul did go away........
People are so fixated on the ring, they can't see the problem that the ring is only a symptom of.....
Auldwulfe
I don't think you understand how buffs work... Dreugh king is a trash set as it gives an easily available buff that can be obtained with potions, oaken soul, skills etc... Also it's not 20% increased damage, it's 20% increased spell and weapon damage, which in turn are stats used to calculate the skills damage but in reality it's not actually a 20% increase.
It's the identical buff that, when noted on Oakensoul, is railed by some as "too powerful" and "unbalancing".....
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
I am pointing out that the arguments made against oakensoul would also apply to builds that predated oakensoul by a year..... so, maybe it's not a ring, but other issues.....
Nerfing the ring, itself will make a few people feel good... they can gloat over how they stuck it to the other players that they feel aren't good enough... and if you read back, you will see that .... "they don't have to work hard"... "they just tape their button down"... "the only requirement is that they are breathing, and they get the DPS" and so on.....
All of those are quotes from the various threads -
The issue is far more than one ring... it is how they are stacking - I deliberately used Dreugh King, as I have seen a guy who uses it get 124K DPS on a parse... and I have seen people advocate for taking Major Brutality off of Oakensoul..... and the calling the set trash proves the point. Yes, it is an easily obtainable buff... and if you get it there, then those potions, skills etc, can be re-routed to the other buffs you want... it's a lego block.
As Richard said, the goal should be to build your character like a trading card game..... I would postulate that it is more like a lego set ... each block is pretty much limited....but together you get a form... Oakensoul is a large bunch of pieces already set up with superglue.... they are put together, but you can't change the shape of it. However, you can use it to build around, but eventually, it is too limited, and you want to get back to the basic blocks, and form your own shape.......
I am seeing more and more people with the attitude of "you need to do it my way, don't learn another way... and I am going to scream "NERF' if I can't command other people do it my way......."
I am advocating for letting people do it ANY way they want.... yes, a preformed tool is very useful.... and some may never go past it, because it does enough for them.... their choice, their money, and their characters and interaction with the game...... I have NO right, or desire, to get in the way of that.
Every argument against oakensoul is doing more to reinforce the toxicity and elitism.... because any attempt to discuss the REAL problem is shot down.... it's the fault of that dirty ring, and those evil ring users..... I could go into historical references, but that would not help the discussion.
The problem is that certain buffs are stacking in unexpected ways, when combined with things like channeled attacks....
That is being, repeatedly, ignored, because of a hatred of a ring that just happened to act as the flag showing the true issue.
Seriously, you don't fix a bridge with a cracked support, by deciding to repave it first.... you start at the foundation of that support, and look for why it cracked....
Auldwulfe
Edited by Auldwulfe on April 11, 2023 6:33PM1 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
The assumption is that I am arguing that everyone should have oakensoul... and that is wrong, I am arguing that everyone should be allowed to play the way they want, period.
But I, very much agree, that there are balance issues.... and because oakensoul shares some of those skills that have the issue, it shows up in it... but it is NOT the source, nor end-all of those issues.... they go deeper, and the core problem would not go away, even if oakensoul did go away........
People are so fixated on the ring, they can't see the problem that the ring is only a symptom of.....
Auldwulfe
@Auldwulfe
I too am in favor of play the way you want and the game allows. No problem there but I just want to say you do keep mixing what you're saying when you try to defend the ring.
First let me say I saw you say that you're ok with changing how the buffs work on the ring. Ok that's cool.
But then you say people focus on the ring too much because other builds get the same damage or better. Again this is fairly true.
But you leave out the part where the ring gives you 100 percent uptime on damage and defensive buffs. This makes the ring a powerhouse. I'm sure a lot less people would care if this was two items with defense and offense buffs split across them.
Then you bring things like rattlecage up as if that comparison makes sense vs an item that gives way more on the exchange rate.
My overall point is that there might be less argument if some of your points didn't seem to contradict themselves.
Yes we get it, the ring is not a self contained power house and has to be mixed with other factors to make an Oaken sorc.
But! The ring does make oakensorc able to break previous fundamentals of the game in a way no other pieces of the puzzle can.
Heavy attack was always a thing, the ring makes heavy attack able to ignore multiple fundamentals of the previous game design. That's what the ring brings to the picture all in one.
Take off the ring and you still have damage, tankiness, and healing but you have to play the game more.
Again I'm not against playing the ring. I just want people to be clear about what it is and isn't.
The thing is, to use your phrase, I have to play the game LESS without Oakensoul..... as I can get a channeled heal from Crit Surge that I do not get from Oakensoul..... oakensoul does NOT add to the survivability of that build, in any way, that is unique to Oakensoul.
I never argued that we have an issue with the uptime of buffs... and MANY of them have other sources which also have 100% uptime, or near enough to not matter. I mentioned Queen's Elegance, as it's pretty much permanent uptime on Empower, when you combine it with heavy attacks. And some of the buffs being complained about most are so easily worked around... that it's a moot point... for example Minor Endurance --- 13 skills, several of which are in universally available skills... but without it, most people wouldn't notice, EXCEPT the people quibbling over 1% damage at top ends.
I agreed that some of the buffs did not make sense.... and I chose Dreugh King, because Major Brutality and Major Sorcer have 100% uptime on that.... add Queen's Elegance for your light armor, and the Passives and CP boosts for crit, with the right mundus, plus either of the skills from the mages or fighter skill lines, and you get Major Savagery and Major Prophecy with 100% uptime.... so now have a crit of 50%, empower at 99% and you have YET to hit a single button other than the mouse...... and you will break 40 to 50K DPS.... I have done it... and if nothing else is added, there you are... but we add some defense or a DOT... Daedric Prey, and both pets... so now you have something to pull aggro, and a heal..... and finally, say Slime Craw... there are better ones, but that is minor berserk with 100% uptime... and you have all the damage of an oakensoul build, and if you chose Nord, Imperial, or Orc.. you are also tanky enough to muscle through... and still have the same simple rotation.
A part of the contradiction is that the people that hate oakensoul keep moving the goalposts .... first it's too easy....then it gives too much... and then "I had to do this" .... and then, losing a bar isn't enough penalty...... and then it's but they don't get a second bar, so no build diversity... and so on.
And when pressed for what the real problem is, everyone is defaulting back to the heavy lightning sorc build.... which doesn't need Oakensoul to function.......
I want to
A: defend everyone's right to play the way they want
B: get to the core problem... which is finally starting to happen.... and not just keep going back to "taping the mouse button down" "warm body that's breathing" responses....
C: identify what needs to be changed to make it work
You are about the only person to actually put it to the 100% uptime..
So, is that a problem, and is it a problem across the board, say with 2-handed builds, which do not seem to have the same reaction as lightning staves..... or is it unique to that one build... and how do we work from there.
I never said we had could not modify or tune the ring... I am pointing out that the ring may only be a symptom of a bigger, overall issue... and that nerfing the one thing without the underlying problem being fixed will cause a loss of players without an actual fix.
Auldwulfe
Edited by Auldwulfe on April 11, 2023 6:33PM0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
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Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
That's the issue, though... which one over-writes, then... do Oakensoul people get forced to use the lower percentage in a group, while others get a higher one, because they took the time, paid for the expansions, and then ground the leads for the ring?
Because if it gets reduced, say, like Pale Order's heal.... but is overwritten by the group... then what would it matter if it happened, or not?
That's a hollow fix ---
I'd say we start with the buffs, one by one, and go with it... Major Brutality / Sorcery, and Major Savagery / Prophecy are so universal, that they can stay....
I do ask about Major Resolve... I'd move that minor, but you can get it, just by being a Nord.... or with the right glyphs, so it's up in the air, there.
I have yet to really see a need, or reason for Minor Aegis, and have repeatedly said that one should be removed .... but see minor slayer, below.
I'd leave Minor Berserk... as the ring takes away a monster set, which is where that tends to come from, or skills, they won't have a space for, on the bar, there are a lot of the other sources for that one... not a big deal.
Minor courage is another question mark -- I always thought it should be potion, and cast buff only.... there are some sets that give it.... and I believe they should ALL be reworked to make it something, say a healer with combat prayer drops. I don't think it should be on any hard gear.....
Minor Endurance is another one I'd give to healers and tanks... or potions... and Oakensoul is the Only physical source of it, so having it gone won't hurt
Minor Force - 6 sets as well as a bunch of skills.... getting it here, or elsewhere doesn't truly matter a lot.....
Minor Fortitude is odd.... health regen is very limited, anyways, but I think it should be added to other sets..... could be left, or taken
Minor Heroism --- the sets that give it, are fairly scarce on other adds... I'd either take it from here, or revamp those sets to be a bit more competitive.... Daring Corsair comes to mind - although Shalk Exoskeleton does seem to be better
Minor Intellect - see Minor Endurance
Minor Mending - always thought it should be a healer only thing.... I'd even say add it in as a passive on the restoration staff
Minor Protection - tough one -- there are 3 sets, and a LOT of skills that give it, to include some, like Pulsar, that are definitely offensive --- I'd be more inclined to expand it to other sets and items, and then make it negotiable, here
Minor Slayer is like Minor Aegis - I can see it removed... but, both could exist, if they only worked with operating with less than a full group ..... that way, it helps with soloing dungeons, and small groups.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
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Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
I completely agree there are a couple possible issues with Oakensoul, and maybe Empower... however, with my testing, I don't see anything to imply that Empower is causing that much of an issue alone. Even with 100% uptime, Empower and Oakensoul don't seem to be enough to make 2H HA or Dual Wield HA builds viable. All the weapons seem to be equally utilizing Empower, but only Lightning Staff is really viable. It isn't because of Empower alone, it's the HA sets and cleave.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
I am an advocate for possible changes to Oakensoul...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317
HOWEVER, I think any changes to Oakensoul should come AFTER fixing HA sets and Lightning Staves. I think they are completely throwing off the numbers and if HA sets like Sergeant's Mail were fixed, THEN Oakensoul can be looked at in a more even lighting.Edited by Billium813 on April 11, 2023 8:05PM2 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭y'all im so confused why it matters if some people get big damage from oakensoul and others get it from different sets?
some people like using two bars and having a challenge and others wanna pay attention to things besides their skillbars and dps, like mechanics which are easier to focus on without needing to keep up timed buffs.
i dont know how important empower is to oakensoul as it wasnt originally a part of it if i recall correctly, but it has clearly given more people a reason to get oakensoul which only seems good?
i thought more damage was desired in trials and dungeons and uh every other part of the game
later this month necrom will likely be on pts and there'll probably be another fun mythic that supposedly is too much for the game.
games are supposed to be fun.
miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.2 -
Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭games are supposed to be fun.
Can you define "fun" in a way that will satisfy everyone?
Edited by Billium813 on April 11, 2023 8:07PM3 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Billium813 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
I completely agree there are a couple possible issues with Oakensoul, and maybe Empower... however, with my testing, I don't see anything to imply that Empower is causing that much of an issue alone. Even with 100% uptime, Empower and Oakensoul don't seem to be enough to make 2H HA or Dual Wield HA builds viable. All the weapons seem to be equally utilizing Empower, but only Lightning Staff is really viable. It isn't because of Empower alone, it's the HA sets and cleave.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
I am an advocate for possible changes to Oakensoul...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317
HOWEVER, I think any changes to Oakensoul should come AFTER fixing HA sets and Lightning Staves. I think they are completely throwing off the numbers and if HA sets like Sergeant's Mail were fixed, THEN Oakensoul can be looked at in a more even lighting.
I think we've been on the same side, the whole time... just on parallel roads.....
I have, honestly, been abusing Sergeant's mail and Lightning staff for 18 months.... I found it by accident as everyone kept telling me I NEEDED slime craw... so Sergeant's was one of the first sets I ever completed......
So, I put it together, and there it was.....
I am game for fixing that, and then moving on.... very much so, as long as every player is left with the right to play the way they choose and want..... that is the one point I won't budge on....
Auldwulfe1 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
I completely agree there are a couple possible issues with Oakensoul, and maybe Empower... however, with my testing, I don't see anything to imply that Empower is causing that much of an issue alone. Even with 100% uptime, Empower and Oakensoul don't seem to be enough to make 2H HA or Dual Wield HA builds viable. All the weapons seem to be equally utilizing Empower, but only Lightning Staff is really viable. It isn't because of Empower alone, it's the HA sets and cleave.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
I am an advocate for possible changes to Oakensoul...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317
HOWEVER, I think any changes to Oakensoul should come AFTER fixing HA sets and Lightning Staves. I think they are completely throwing off the numbers and if HA sets like Sergeant's Mail were fixed, THEN Oakensoul can be looked at in a more even lighting.
this is more of the issue, how the actual weapon heavy attacks work with empower + heavy attack sets
i dont think the oakensoul is bad, i only use it on 1 toon, a WW, because that toon is basically 1 bar all the time anyway, but on other characters i think it would be too limiting (i personally find even 10 skill slots (5 front and 5 back) being too limiting, but thats a different issue lol)
but as noted, lightning staff has 3 dmg ticks, all buffed by empower and all buffed by heavy attack sets + the destro passive giving it 100% aoe cleave dmg is why its so potent
resto doesnt have the aoe, but is potent for the free healing and due to it also being 3 dmg ticks, gets close to the dmg of the lightning staff dmg and can easily outpace heavy attack setups for any other weapon
while 2h has an aoe on hit, its still only 1 single hit, duel wield has 2 hits but no aoe
the rest of the weapons have no aoe, and only 1 single hit
its the multi-hit weapons that definitely make heavy attack setups much more potent because they triple dip on empower + the heavy attack bonuses
to take a hypothetical:
2h heavy attack does 1 hit of 5000 dmg + 3500 dmg from heavy attack sets + 80% from empower (would result in 15300 non crit)
lightning staff attack would say do 5000 total dmg between the 3 ticks
so for this it would be (1000 + 3500 + 80%)x2 + (3000 + 3500 + 80%) = (8100)x2 + 11700 = 16200 + 11700 = 27900 (non crit)
so not even accounting for crits and the cleave passives, a single lightning staff heavy attack with the same bonuses would do nearly 2x the dmg as a 2h weapon heavy attack, even if their base dmg was identical
a more balanced way to approach this would be that HA sets and empower work at only 50% strength on the extra channeled ticks, but be full strength on the final heavy hit, which would close the gap between the HA dmg between the different weapon types
oakensoul is not even close to being the problem IMHOplays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities2 -
Billium813✭✭✭✭✭
✭Necrotech_Master wrote: »Billium813 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
I completely agree there are a couple possible issues with Oakensoul, and maybe Empower... however, with my testing, I don't see anything to imply that Empower is causing that much of an issue alone. Even with 100% uptime, Empower and Oakensoul don't seem to be enough to make 2H HA or Dual Wield HA builds viable. All the weapons seem to be equally utilizing Empower, but only Lightning Staff is really viable. It isn't because of Empower alone, it's the HA sets and cleave.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
I am an advocate for possible changes to Oakensoul...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317
HOWEVER, I think any changes to Oakensoul should come AFTER fixing HA sets and Lightning Staves. I think they are completely throwing off the numbers and if HA sets like Sergeant's Mail were fixed, THEN Oakensoul can be looked at in a more even lighting.
this is more of the issue, how the actual weapon heavy attacks work with empower + heavy attack sets
i dont think the oakensoul is bad, i only use it on 1 toon, a WW, because that toon is basically 1 bar all the time anyway, but on other characters i think it would be too limiting (i personally find even 10 skill slots (5 front and 5 back) being too limiting, but thats a different issue lol)
but as noted, lightning staff has 3 dmg ticks, all buffed by empower and all buffed by heavy attack sets + the destro passive giving it 100% aoe cleave dmg is why its so potent
resto doesnt have the aoe, but is potent for the free healing and due to it also being 3 dmg ticks, gets close to the dmg of the lightning staff dmg and can easily outpace heavy attack setups for any other weapon
while 2h has an aoe on hit, its still only 1 single hit, duel wield has 2 hits but no aoe
the rest of the weapons have no aoe, and only 1 single hit
its the multi-hit weapons that definitely make heavy attack setups much more potent because they triple dip on empower + the heavy attack bonuses
to take a hypothetical:
2h heavy attack does 1 hit of 5000 dmg + 3500 dmg from heavy attack sets + 80% from empower (would result in 15300 non crit)
lightning staff attack would say do 5000 total dmg between the 3 ticks
so for this it would be (1000 + 3500 + 80%)x2 + (3000 + 3500 + 80%) = (8100)x2 + 11700 = 16200 + 11700 = 27900 (non crit)
so not even accounting for crits and the cleave passives, a single lightning staff heavy attack with the same bonuses would do nearly 2x the dmg as a 2h weapon heavy attack, even if their base dmg was identical
a more balanced way to approach this would be that HA sets and empower work at only 50% strength on the extra channeled ticks, but be full strength on the final heavy hit, which would close the gap between the HA dmg between the different weapon types
oakensoul is not even close to being the problem IMHO
It goes without saying, but just keep in mind that just because each individual damage element is buffed by +80%, doesn't mean the final total is more than +80% itself.
IOW:
If, (X) + (X) + (Y) = Z
then, (X * 1.8) + (X * 1.8) + (Y * 1.8) = (Z * 1.8)
In the end, the channel buff from Sergeant's Mail is still the issue, not actually Empower. Lightning Staff is actually utilizing the Empower buff just as much as any other weapons who only hits in 1 hit. For instance, with just Oakensoul, Bow is actually MUCH higher single target DPS! The only difference is HA sets over-inflating Lightning Staff damage. With that removed, Empower wouldn't be much of an issue. Maybe. We'd have to check again afterwards.
I think I personally would just change all HA sets to buff the final hit, as that's really the only thing all HAs have in common. Make the channel damage a flat rate based on WD or resource or something. Then, they can buff all HA sets to make HA more viable on all weapons (if they wanted to make HA damage more viable).Edited by Billium813 on April 11, 2023 9:18PM2 -
Necrotech_Master✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »Necrotech_Master wrote: »Billium813 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
As I have said, I don't care about the ring, I care about people being able to play the way that they want to.... I don't care about the buff, as long as it is equally balanced across ALL platforms... if empower is too powerful on Oakensoul, then it is too powerful overall..... not - give it the pale order treatment there, but leave it alone elsewhere..... if we are going to give it the pale order treatment, then EVERY usage of those buffs needs the pale order treatment.
Except you're comparing apples and oranges here. Let's say we Nerf major brutality on oakensoul with the pale order effect. It still has several other buffs to share the load vs say dreugh king where the set is effectively gutted because it then has no redeeming factors.
So an oaken sorc in the scenario is still building ult, has recoveries, is still as tanky where a dreugh king user would just have nothing but less damage.
I'm not saying oaken buffs should get the pale order treatment, just that is not the same as a buff nerfed elsewhere.
And then, lastly, there is the elephant in the room... Empower
That, I think, is the true problem here..... but, as it is NOT a problem with 2 -handed weapons, dual wield, Fire or Ice Staves... it seems to fly under the radar.. until it doesn't
This is where the problem lies... which is why just nerfing the ring won't have the effect desired.... it would just make people leave the game...
And it only seems to be a problem when you use 2 specific items, Lightning and Restoration Staves....
I think that looking at those, as opposed to Oakensoul will actually get us to the core issue, and not create a situation where oakensoul is heavily nerfed, people left, and the problem remains.....
That is all of Oakensoul.... and outside of a couple of skills that have 5% impact, at most.....a lot of it is pretty tame and things everyone over level 50 should already be getting in gear... it doesn't summon a sword giving you free attacks, summon daedroth, or hungers... or give you the ability to spit plague globes at things......
The problem is the interaction of those channel staves with enhancing sets, and then empower...... I'd start the focus there, because anything else just hurts players that no one is having an issue with... which is my opposition. Let people play what they want......
Auldwulfe
I completely agree there are a couple possible issues with Oakensoul, and maybe Empower... however, with my testing, I don't see anything to imply that Empower is causing that much of an issue alone. Even with 100% uptime, Empower and Oakensoul don't seem to be enough to make 2H HA or Dual Wield HA builds viable. All the weapons seem to be equally utilizing Empower, but only Lightning Staff is really viable. It isn't because of Empower alone, it's the HA sets and cleave.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/629658/comparing-heavy-attacks
I am an advocate for possible changes to Oakensoul...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7827317/#Comment_7827317
HOWEVER, I think any changes to Oakensoul should come AFTER fixing HA sets and Lightning Staves. I think they are completely throwing off the numbers and if HA sets like Sergeant's Mail were fixed, THEN Oakensoul can be looked at in a more even lighting.
this is more of the issue, how the actual weapon heavy attacks work with empower + heavy attack sets
i dont think the oakensoul is bad, i only use it on 1 toon, a WW, because that toon is basically 1 bar all the time anyway, but on other characters i think it would be too limiting (i personally find even 10 skill slots (5 front and 5 back) being too limiting, but thats a different issue lol)
but as noted, lightning staff has 3 dmg ticks, all buffed by empower and all buffed by heavy attack sets + the destro passive giving it 100% aoe cleave dmg is why its so potent
resto doesnt have the aoe, but is potent for the free healing and due to it also being 3 dmg ticks, gets close to the dmg of the lightning staff dmg and can easily outpace heavy attack setups for any other weapon
while 2h has an aoe on hit, its still only 1 single hit, duel wield has 2 hits but no aoe
the rest of the weapons have no aoe, and only 1 single hit
its the multi-hit weapons that definitely make heavy attack setups much more potent because they triple dip on empower + the heavy attack bonuses
to take a hypothetical:
2h heavy attack does 1 hit of 5000 dmg + 3500 dmg from heavy attack sets + 80% from empower (would result in 15300 non crit)
lightning staff attack would say do 5000 total dmg between the 3 ticks
so for this it would be (1000 + 3500 + 80%)x2 + (3000 + 3500 + 80%) = (8100)x2 + 11700 = 16200 + 11700 = 27900 (non crit)
so not even accounting for crits and the cleave passives, a single lightning staff heavy attack with the same bonuses would do nearly 2x the dmg as a 2h weapon heavy attack, even if their base dmg was identical
a more balanced way to approach this would be that HA sets and empower work at only 50% strength on the extra channeled ticks, but be full strength on the final heavy hit, which would close the gap between the HA dmg between the different weapon types
oakensoul is not even close to being the problem IMHO
It goes without saying, but just keep in mind that just because each individual damage element is buffed by +80%, doesn't mean the final total is more than +80% itself.
IOW:
If, (X) + (X) + (Y) = Z
then, (X * 1.8) + (X * 1.8) + (Y * 1.8) = (Z * 1.8)
In the end, the channel buff from Sergeant's Mail is still the issue, not actually Empower. Lightning Staff is actually utilizing the Empower buff just as much as any other weapons who only hits in 1 hit. For instance, with just Oakensoul, Bow is actually MUCH higher single target DPS! The only difference is HA sets over-inflating Lightning Staff damage. With that removed, Empower wouldn't be much of an issue. Maybe. We'd have to check again afterwards.
I think I personally would just change all HA sets to buff the final hit, as that's really the only thing all HAs have in common. Make the channel damage a flat rate based on WD or resource or something. Then, they can buff all HA sets to make HA more viable on all weapons (if they wanted to make HA damage more viable).
yeah, if your only taking empower into account, then it should still remain equal, as its a flat increase
which then the problem would be the HA sets that are being triple dipped by channeled HA (this would apply to ALL HA sets that apply fixed dmg bonuses, not just sergeants. sergeants sticks out because it has the largest bonus but the problem gets multiplicative with any of these HA buff sets)plays PC/NA
handle @Necrotech_Master
active player since april 2014
i have my main house (grand topal hideaway) listed in the housing tours, it has multiple target dummies, scribing altar, and grandmaster stations (in progress being filled out), as well as almost every antiquity furnishing on display to preview them
feel free to stop by and use the facilities0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
The thing is, to use your phrase, I have to play the game LESS without Oakensoul..... as I can get a channeled heal from Crit Surge that I do not get from Oakensoul..... oakensoul does NOT add to the survivability of that build, in any way, that is unique to Oakensoul.
Again, not having to take the time to cast the skill adds survivability. So lets go down the oakensoul buffs I think add survivability.
Major Brutality
Major Sorcery
Permanent buffs to any heal you cast that don't require you to take time to keep them up.
Major Prophecy
Major Savagery
Same as brutality/sorcery
Major Resolve
Again, you have this the whole time with no bar swap, remembering, etc requiqred!
Minor Aegis
Minor Courage
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Berserk
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
I mean come on man seriously? We don't see how these being up 100 % with no input required from user adds survivability to a build?????
I never argued that we have an issue with the uptime of buffs... and MANY of them have other sources which also have 100% uptime, or near enough to not matter. I mentioned Queen's Elegance, as it's pretty much permanent uptime on Empower, when you combine it with heavy attacks. And some of the buffs being complained about most are so easily worked around... that it's a moot point... for example Minor Endurance --- 13 skills, several of which are in universally available skills... but without it, most people wouldn't notice, EXCEPT the people quibbling over 1% damage at top ends.
This is fine but you're still comparing one or a few buffs to an item that gives SEVENTEEN buffs! I mean that's a lot of buffs at 100 percent uptime. Which is also why I'm sure nobody can even build a build that can match oakensoul because even if you could get all of those buffs on a build the uptime would be sooooooo suspect it would be a joke compared to oakensoul.
I agreed that some of the buffs did not make sense.... and I chose Dreugh King, because Major Brutality and Major Sorcer have 100% uptime on that.... add Queen's Elegance for your light armor, and the Passives and CP boosts for crit, with the right mundus, plus either of the skills from the mages or fighter skill lines, and you get Major Savagery and Major Prophecy with 100% uptime.... so now have a crit of 50%, empower at 99% and you have YET to hit a single button other than the mouse...... and you will break 40 to 50K DPS.... I have done it... and if nothing else is added, there you are... but we add some defense or a DOT... Daedric Prey, and both pets... so now you have something to pull aggro, and a heal..... and finally, say Slime Craw... there are better ones, but that is minor berserk with 100% uptime... and you have all the damage of an oakensoul build, and if you chose Nord, Imperial, or Orc.. you are also tanky enough to muscle through... and still have the same simple rotation.
You'd be missing the following and or wouldn't have 100 percent uptime without then having to put in a rotation which would make content not as easy. Also the damage would take a considerable hit. One bar sorc has always been useable but the ring does make quite the difference I'd say.
Empower
Major Resolve
Minor Aegis
Minor Courage
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Slayer
A part of the contradiction is that the people that hate oakensoul keep moving the goalposts .... first it's too easy....then it gives too much... and then "I had to do this" .... and then, losing a bar isn't enough penalty...... and then it's but they don't get a second bar, so no build diversity... and so on.
And when pressed for what the real problem is, everyone is defaulting back to the heavy lightning sorc build.... which doesn't need Oakensoul to function.......
But it does if you want the version that lets you truly be lazy and still play the game. Oakensoul is pretty much ESO with story mode turned on when it comes to general content because of the buff uptime and how the buffs add to defense as well as offense.
B: get to the core problem... which is finally starting to happen.... and not just keep going back to "taping the mouse button down" "warm body that's breathing" responses....
C: identify what needs to be changed to make it work
You are about the only person to actually put it to the 100% uptime..
So, is that a problem, and is it a problem across the board, say with 2-handed builds, which do not seem to have the same reaction as lightning staves..... or is it unique to that one build... and how do we work from there.
I never said we had could not modify or tune the ring... I am pointing out that the ring may only be a symptom of a bigger, overall issue... and that nerfing the one thing without the underlying problem being fixed will cause a loss of players without an actual fix.
Auldwulfe
So here it is. Heavy attack has been around for a long time. And people were ok when it did low damage / was tanky. Nobody cared though you might get booted from the group. Generally nobody complained and all was well.
Then we have oakensoul and now because of 17 buffs with 100 percent uptime we have a problem. Maybe we stop trying to fix what isn't broke in regards to heavy attack builds and just tone down the ring in GROUP content.
I don't think anyone cares about an oakensoul user doing anything solo, that's no issue. But it's obvious that some in group content want a little more balance.
I say give some of the buffs the pale order treatment and make it so that oakensoul either has to depend on the group for survivability or damage. One or the other, I don't care but this would just help reinforce the group play and teamwork mechanics that are somewhat a foundation of the game.
This would allow others to play what they want which is what the game says it's about while also asking oakensoul users to play the game with others as a team which is also what the game says it's about.
2 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
The thing is, to use your phrase, I have to play the game LESS without Oakensoul..... as I can get a channeled heal from Crit Surge that I do not get from Oakensoul..... oakensoul does NOT add to the survivability of that build, in any way, that is unique to Oakensoul.
Again, not having to take the time to cast the skill adds survivability. So lets go down the oakensoul buffs I think add survivability.
Major Brutality
Major Sorcery
Permanent buffs to any heal you cast that don't require you to take time to keep them up.
Major Prophecy
Major Savagery
Same as brutality/sorcery
Major Resolve
Again, you have this the whole time with no bar swap, remembering, etc requiqred!
Minor Aegis
Minor Courage
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Berserk
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
I mean come on man seriously? We don't see how these being up 100 % with no input required from user adds survivability to a build?????
I never argued that we have an issue with the uptime of buffs... and MANY of them have other sources which also have 100% uptime, or near enough to not matter. I mentioned Queen's Elegance, as it's pretty much permanent uptime on Empower, when you combine it with heavy attacks. And some of the buffs being complained about most are so easily worked around... that it's a moot point... for example Minor Endurance --- 13 skills, several of which are in universally available skills... but without it, most people wouldn't notice, EXCEPT the people quibbling over 1% damage at top ends.
This is fine but you're still comparing one or a few buffs to an item that gives SEVENTEEN buffs! I mean that's a lot of buffs at 100 percent uptime. Which is also why I'm sure nobody can even build a build that can match oakensoul because even if you could get all of those buffs on a build the uptime would be sooooooo suspect it would be a joke compared to oakensoul.
I agreed that some of the buffs did not make sense.... and I chose Dreugh King, because Major Brutality and Major Sorcer have 100% uptime on that.... add Queen's Elegance for your light armor, and the Passives and CP boosts for crit, with the right mundus, plus either of the skills from the mages or fighter skill lines, and you get Major Savagery and Major Prophecy with 100% uptime.... so now have a crit of 50%, empower at 99% and you have YET to hit a single button other than the mouse...... and you will break 40 to 50K DPS.... I have done it... and if nothing else is added, there you are... but we add some defense or a DOT... Daedric Prey, and both pets... so now you have something to pull aggro, and a heal..... and finally, say Slime Craw... there are better ones, but that is minor berserk with 100% uptime... and you have all the damage of an oakensoul build, and if you chose Nord, Imperial, or Orc.. you are also tanky enough to muscle through... and still have the same simple rotation.
You'd be missing the following and or wouldn't have 100 percent uptime without then having to put in a rotation which would make content not as easy. Also the damage would take a considerable hit. One bar sorc has always been useable but the ring does make quite the difference I'd say.
Empower
Major Resolve
Minor Aegis
Minor Courage
Minor Endurance
Minor Force
Minor Fortitude
Minor Heroism
Minor Intellect
Minor Mending
Minor Protection
Minor Slayer
A part of the contradiction is that the people that hate oakensoul keep moving the goalposts .... first it's too easy....then it gives too much... and then "I had to do this" .... and then, losing a bar isn't enough penalty...... and then it's but they don't get a second bar, so no build diversity... and so on.
And when pressed for what the real problem is, everyone is defaulting back to the heavy lightning sorc build.... which doesn't need Oakensoul to function.......
But it does if you want the version that lets you truly be lazy and still play the game. Oakensoul is pretty much ESO with story mode turned on when it comes to general content because of the buff uptime and how the buffs add to defense as well as offense.
B: get to the core problem... which is finally starting to happen.... and not just keep going back to "taping the mouse button down" "warm body that's breathing" responses....
C: identify what needs to be changed to make it work
You are about the only person to actually put it to the 100% uptime..
So, is that a problem, and is it a problem across the board, say with 2-handed builds, which do not seem to have the same reaction as lightning staves..... or is it unique to that one build... and how do we work from there.
I never said we had could not modify or tune the ring... I am pointing out that the ring may only be a symptom of a bigger, overall issue... and that nerfing the one thing without the underlying problem being fixed will cause a loss of players without an actual fix.
Auldwulfe
So here it is. Heavy attack has been around for a long time. And people were ok when it did low damage / was tanky. Nobody cared though you might get booted from the group. Generally nobody complained and all was well.
Then we have oakensoul and now because of 17 buffs with 100 percent uptime we have a problem. Maybe we stop trying to fix what isn't broke in regards to heavy attack builds and just tone down the ring in GROUP content.
I don't think anyone cares about an oakensoul user doing anything solo, that's no issue. But it's obvious that some in group content want a little more balance.
I say give some of the buffs the pale order treatment and make it so that oakensoul either has to depend on the group for survivability or damage. One or the other, I don't care but this would just help reinforce the group play and teamwork mechanics that are somewhat a foundation of the game.
This would allow others to play what they want which is what the game says it's about while also asking oakensoul users to play the game with others as a team which is also what the game says it's about.
A bit overblown... major brutality and sorcery come together and on some armor sets as well as over 30 skills, of which, the one I use without Oakensoul... Crit Surge is one of the shorter durations at 33 seconds... Dragon Knights get it for over a minute on one of theirs, etc... and major savagery and prophecy come as a passive on two of the skills you can get, one each from fighters guild line, and one from mages guild line.... as to the rest, I already explained it multiple times... most can be matched with either a CP, a passive, or a racial skill.... and that is listed above....
As for Major resolve... that's about the same as the Nord racial passive... better nerf them out of the game.... drunken nords are too powerful.
As is ALSO posted above, the big issue is lightning staff double dipping in the fixed amount of bonus damage from Sergeant's mail.... that is being discussed....
I understand you hate the mythic..... but, I have played a MORE survivable sorc with ONLY ONE BAR, and two skills I use, and no Oakensoul.... and it does the SAME damage, less buttons, and better self healing.....
I discovered this build 18 months ago, before Oakensoul.... seriously, the only thing that would seem to please at this level is to ban all equipment on characters... you will play NAKED, and you will like it.....
Auldwulfe
0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
A bit overblown... major brutality and sorcery come together and on some armor sets as well as over 30 skills, of which, the one I use without Oakensoul... Crit Surge is one of the shorter durations at 33 seconds... Dragon Knights get it for over a minute on one of theirs, etc... and major savagery and prophecy come as a passive on two of the skills you can get, one each from fighters guild line, and one from mages guild line.... as to the rest, I already explained it multiple times... most can be matched with either a CP, a passive, or a racial skill.... and that is listed above....
Ok fine I'll go with you. So tell me exactly what sets I need to wear to get 100 percent uptime on all of those buffs? See if people could build oakensoul without oakensoul they would because then they wouldn't have to pay for the expansion but the simple truth is that it can't be done.
You can name as many places that the buffs can come from but currently nobody can match all of the buffs in one build with 100 percent possible. It is only possible with oakensoul. That's just the facts
As for Major resolve... that's about the same as the Nord racial passive... better nerf them out of the game.... drunken nords are too powerful.
Add 16 other buffs and I guarantee it people will call for nord nerfs. You have to do apples to apples.
As is ALSO posted above, the big issue is lightning staff double dipping in the fixed amount of bonus damage from Sergeant's mail.... that is being discussed....
Wasn't an issue until oakensoul came along actually. Again, the issue is not damage, it's survivability and damage in one.
I understand you hate the mythic..... but, I have played a MORE survivable sorc with ONLY ONE BAR, and two skills I use, and no Oakensoul.... and it does the SAME damage, less buttons, and better self healing.....
I discovered this build 18 months ago, before Oakensoul.... seriously, the only thing that would seem to please at this level is to ban all equipment on characters... you will play NAKED, and you will like it.....
Auldwulfe
Actually I don't care one way if people do or don't use oakensoul. I care that the logic behind the argument is actually there. So in essence use the ring or don't use it but don't sit there and compare 17 100 percent uptime buffs to sets with 1 or 2 buffs which leave you with the requirement to keep the others up yourself and which still don't give you the same buffs.
Is oakensoul op, not really.
Does oakensoul through 100 percent uptime and 17 buffs allow you to have lazy gameplay with good damage on lightning heavy attack build, YUP!!!
Is an oakensoul build good or bad for ESO, depends on what you care about in this game. Both sides have legitimate arguments really.
Should oakensoul be nerfed ? Depends on who you ask, again both sides have good arguments.
Can oakensoul be nerfed without obliterating it while still restoring a fair balance, sure
2 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
A bit overblown... major brutality and sorcery come together and on some armor sets as well as over 30 skills, of which, the one I use without Oakensoul... Crit Surge is one of the shorter durations at 33 seconds... Dragon Knights get it for over a minute on one of theirs, etc... and major savagery and prophecy come as a passive on two of the skills you can get, one each from fighters guild line, and one from mages guild line.... as to the rest, I already explained it multiple times... most can be matched with either a CP, a passive, or a racial skill.... and that is listed above....
Ok fine I'll go with you. So tell me exactly what sets I need to wear to get 100 percent uptime on all of those buffs? See if people could build oakensoul without oakensoul they would because then they wouldn't have to pay for the expansion but the simple truth is that it can't be done.
You can name as many places that the buffs can come from but currently nobody can match all of the buffs in one build with 100 percent possible. It is only possible with oakensoul. That's just the facts
As for Major resolve... that's about the same as the Nord racial passive... better nerf them out of the game.... drunken nords are too powerful.
Add 16 other buffs and I guarantee it people will call for nord nerfs. You have to do apples to apples.
As is ALSO posted above, the big issue is lightning staff double dipping in the fixed amount of bonus damage from Sergeant's mail.... that is being discussed....
Wasn't an issue until oakensoul came along actually. Again, the issue is not damage, it's survivability and damage in one.
I understand you hate the mythic..... but, I have played a MORE survivable sorc with ONLY ONE BAR, and two skills I use, and no Oakensoul.... and it does the SAME damage, less buttons, and better self healing.....
I discovered this build 18 months ago, before Oakensoul.... seriously, the only thing that would seem to please at this level is to ban all equipment on characters... you will play NAKED, and you will like it.....
Auldwulfe
Actually I don't care one way if people do or don't use oakensoul. I care that the logic behind the argument is actually there. So in essence use the ring or don't use it but don't sit there and compare 17 100 percent uptime buffs to sets with 1 or 2 buffs which leave you with the requirement to keep the others up yourself and which still don't give you the same buffs.
Is oakensoul op, not really.
Does oakensoul through 100 percent uptime and 17 buffs allow you to have lazy gameplay with good damage on lightning heavy attack build, YUP!!!
Is an oakensoul build good or bad for ESO, depends on what you care about in this game. Both sides have legitimate arguments really.
Should oakensoul be nerfed ? Depends on who you ask, again both sides have good arguments.
Can oakensoul be nerfed without obliterating it while still restoring a fair balance, sure
Oh no....buffs in your own homeland.,....
LOL
You might want to read some of the other threads above..... I mean, seriously, players get over 15,000 health to start.... it's OVER 9000 ......LOL
Auldwulfe
0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
I do understand that, but the defensive abilities are all minor versions... they are in so many sets, and small enough that a smart build can get the equivalent, easily....
Apologies for not addressing the whole post due to limitations on my end. This part was a bit misleading so I wanted to address it. The ring provides major resolve so not all defensive buffs are minor.
I would like to see ANYONE that can put together a build with the equivalent of the minor buffs of Oakensoul with 100 percent uptime.
That's the part you can't leave out. 100 percent uptime that the player does nothing actively to get makes a big difference in the power of a buff, even a minor one.
Assume you're using 2 heavy-attack-oriented 5-piece sets plus a mythic item other than Oakensoul, and aren't playing a warden. Then Empower and the Major buffs are pretty easily achieved, as is Minor Force. Minor Berserk and Minor Slayer are unlikely -- but taken together they increase DPS on heavy attacks by less than 5%.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
I do understand that, but the defensive abilities are all minor versions... they are in so many sets, and small enough that a smart build can get the equivalent, easily....
Apologies for not addressing the whole post due to limitations on my end. This part was a bit misleading so I wanted to address it. The ring provides major resolve so not all defensive buffs are minor.
I would like to see ANYONE that can put together a build with the equivalent of the minor buffs of Oakensoul with 100 percent uptime.
That's the part you can't leave out. 100 percent uptime that the player does nothing actively to get makes a big difference in the power of a buff, even a minor one.
Assume you're using 2 heavy-attack-oriented 5-piece sets plus a mythic item other than Oakensoul, and aren't playing a warden. Then Empower and the Major buffs are pretty easily achieved, as is Minor Force. Minor Berserk and Minor Slayer are unlikely -- but taken together they increase DPS on heavy attacks by less than 5%.
Achieved, yes
Maintained at 100 percent, no
Again, it's not just about DPS. The balance of the game should be sacrifice. Oakensoul gives doses of damage and defense in one shot and that's a bit of where the issue is.
So ok when you face an ad in a fight, notice how the ads rarely do damage 100 percent of the time while also healing 100 percent of the time?
The game was balanced around the idea of move counter move counter. Oakensoul basically says no I'm doing 17 things that affect both damage and healing continuously, deal with it.
And as has already been stated, by itself this isn't an issue but when combined with a heavy attack build it's a recipe for easy gameplay on levels that we've rarely seen be sustained.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
A bit overblown... major brutality and sorcery come together and on some armor sets as well as over 30 skills, of which, the one I use without Oakensoul... Crit Surge is one of the shorter durations at 33 seconds... Dragon Knights get it for over a minute on one of theirs, etc... and major savagery and prophecy come as a passive on two of the skills you can get, one each from fighters guild line, and one from mages guild line.... as to the rest, I already explained it multiple times... most can be matched with either a CP, a passive, or a racial skill.... and that is listed above....
Ok fine I'll go with you. So tell me exactly what sets I need to wear to get 100 percent uptime on all of those buffs? See if people could build oakensoul without oakensoul they would because then they wouldn't have to pay for the expansion but the simple truth is that it can't be done.
You can name as many places that the buffs can come from but currently nobody can match all of the buffs in one build with 100 percent possible. It is only possible with oakensoul. That's just the facts
As for Major resolve... that's about the same as the Nord racial passive... better nerf them out of the game.... drunken nords are too powerful.
Add 16 other buffs and I guarantee it people will call for nord nerfs. You have to do apples to apples.
As is ALSO posted above, the big issue is lightning staff double dipping in the fixed amount of bonus damage from Sergeant's mail.... that is being discussed....
Wasn't an issue until oakensoul came along actually. Again, the issue is not damage, it's survivability and damage in one.
I understand you hate the mythic..... but, I have played a MORE survivable sorc with ONLY ONE BAR, and two skills I use, and no Oakensoul.... and it does the SAME damage, less buttons, and better self healing.....
I discovered this build 18 months ago, before Oakensoul.... seriously, the only thing that would seem to please at this level is to ban all equipment on characters... you will play NAKED, and you will like it.....
Auldwulfe
Actually I don't care one way if people do or don't use oakensoul. I care that the logic behind the argument is actually there. So in essence use the ring or don't use it but don't sit there and compare 17 100 percent uptime buffs to sets with 1 or 2 buffs which leave you with the requirement to keep the others up yourself and which still don't give you the same buffs.
Is oakensoul op, not really.
Does oakensoul through 100 percent uptime and 17 buffs allow you to have lazy gameplay with good damage on lightning heavy attack build, YUP!!!
Is an oakensoul build good or bad for ESO, depends on what you care about in this game. Both sides have legitimate arguments really.
Should oakensoul be nerfed ? Depends on who you ask, again both sides have good arguments.
Can oakensoul be nerfed without obliterating it while still restoring a fair balance, sure
Oh no....buffs in your own homeland.,....
LOL
You might want to read some of the other threads above..... I mean, seriously, players get over 15,000 health to start.... it's OVER 9000 ......LOL
Auldwulfe
As I said, I'm not against oakensoul. I'm not against easy gameplay. I am against either side of this argument cherry picking things to fit a narrative.
The solutions here are already laid out and actually fairly decent ideas.
That being said, in my opinion denying the obvious strengths of the item is just as bad as asking for it to be nerfed into the ground.
Just accept a reasonable compromise and let everyone have a little bit of a win and go back to what they were doing.3 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »
A bit overblown... major brutality and sorcery come together and on some armor sets as well as over 30 skills, of which, the one I use without Oakensoul... Crit Surge is one of the shorter durations at 33 seconds... Dragon Knights get it for over a minute on one of theirs, etc... and major savagery and prophecy come as a passive on two of the skills you can get, one each from fighters guild line, and one from mages guild line.... as to the rest, I already explained it multiple times... most can be matched with either a CP, a passive, or a racial skill.... and that is listed above....
Ok fine I'll go with you. So tell me exactly what sets I need to wear to get 100 percent uptime on all of those buffs? See if people could build oakensoul without oakensoul they would because then they wouldn't have to pay for the expansion but the simple truth is that it can't be done.
You can name as many places that the buffs can come from but currently nobody can match all of the buffs in one build with 100 percent possible. It is only possible with oakensoul. That's just the facts
As for Major resolve... that's about the same as the Nord racial passive... better nerf them out of the game.... drunken nords are too powerful.
Add 16 other buffs and I guarantee it people will call for nord nerfs. You have to do apples to apples.
As is ALSO posted above, the big issue is lightning staff double dipping in the fixed amount of bonus damage from Sergeant's mail.... that is being discussed....
Wasn't an issue until oakensoul came along actually. Again, the issue is not damage, it's survivability and damage in one.
I understand you hate the mythic..... but, I have played a MORE survivable sorc with ONLY ONE BAR, and two skills I use, and no Oakensoul.... and it does the SAME damage, less buttons, and better self healing.....
I discovered this build 18 months ago, before Oakensoul.... seriously, the only thing that would seem to please at this level is to ban all equipment on characters... you will play NAKED, and you will like it.....
Auldwulfe
Actually I don't care one way if people do or don't use oakensoul. I care that the logic behind the argument is actually there. So in essence use the ring or don't use it but don't sit there and compare 17 100 percent uptime buffs to sets with 1 or 2 buffs which leave you with the requirement to keep the others up yourself and which still don't give you the same buffs.
Is oakensoul op, not really.
Does oakensoul through 100 percent uptime and 17 buffs allow you to have lazy gameplay with good damage on lightning heavy attack build, YUP!!!
Is an oakensoul build good or bad for ESO, depends on what you care about in this game. Both sides have legitimate arguments really.
Should oakensoul be nerfed ? Depends on who you ask, again both sides have good arguments.
Can oakensoul be nerfed without obliterating it while still restoring a fair balance, sure
Oh no....buffs in your own homeland.,....
LOL
You might want to read some of the other threads above..... I mean, seriously, players get over 15,000 health to start.... it's OVER 9000 ......LOL
Auldwulfe
As I said, I'm not against oakensoul. I'm not against easy gameplay. I am against either side of this argument cherry picking things to fit a narrative.
The solutions here are already laid out and actually fairly decent ideas.
That being said, in my opinion denying the obvious strengths of the item is just as bad as asking for it to be nerfed into the ground.
Just accept a reasonable compromise and let everyone have a little bit of a win and go back to what they were doing.
I'm against telling other people how they should play in any form....
And, if you read the above discussion, we are NOT denying... but, the issue that is most complained about doesn't need Oakensoul...
I can much more easily play without it, than with it.. as my rotation without is one button less.... has pretty much 100% uptime on all the major buffs on the ring, and easy. And, I have had it for 18 months.... it not only predates Oakensoul, but even U35 didn't hurt it.
Auldwulfe
0 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »
how does people having fun with oakensoul and lightning staves affect your fun that you clearly like to have in a different way?miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.5 -
Zezin✭✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »
how does people having fun with oakensoul and lightning staves affect your fun that you clearly like to have in a different way?
This is not a single player game, even though a lot of people seem to think it is, and for the record if oakensoul were to get the pale order treatment that would be a solution but as long as we have it in group content where it is giving an unfair advantage to people, then people will continue complaining.2 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »
how does people having fun with oakensoul and lightning staves affect your fun that you clearly like to have in a different way?
This is not a single player game, even though a lot of people seem to think it is, and for the record if oakensoul were to get the pale order treatment that would be a solution but as long as we have it in group content where it is giving an unfair advantage to people, then people will continue complaining.
i never said it was a single player game? oakensoul has made it easier for me to do harder content group content and solo content.
and i thought higher damage was desirable in group content?miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.3 -
Schared✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »
how does people having fun with oakensoul and lightning staves affect your fun that you clearly like to have in a different way?
This is not a single player game, even though a lot of people seem to think it is, and for the record if oakensoul were to get the pale order treatment that would be a solution but as long as we have it in group content where it is giving an unfair advantage to people, then people will continue complaining.
i never said it was a single player game? oakensoul has made it easier for me to do harder content group content and solo content.
and i thought higher damage was desirable in group content?
I believe the mention of gorup content here comes into play as it removes some of the interactions between players and essentially grants single-player experience in a group setting.
Perhaps you encountered such groups yourself: Where instead of a singular unit you have 4 soloplayers doing the content at their own pace.cleared AA once i know what iam doing1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
. but, the issue that is most complained about doesn't need Oakensoul...
So I could say nobody complained till oakensoul which is what I believe but that's just what I believe so I'll ask you to tell me when anyone seriously posted about heavy attack builds and had a thread with this many views and replies before oakensoul?
I'm not even joking because hey maybe I missed it but in this thread and to my knowledge I do see that people understand that lightning pulses, heavy attack sets, and empower buffs do make for strong easy damage but that nobody really cared pre oakensoul because without oakensoul you either don't have quite as much damage and defense or if you seem to it at least required you to be more active.
Now I can understand if you're trying to say that people complaining about oaken sorcs means that they really just want tri focus and empower nerfed and if that's what you think that's what you think but to that argument I'll say it's not all about the damage but the damage and survivability and oaken bring both of those in a bigger dose than just a heavy attack build on it's own.
Also let's be clear, it's fairly easy to spot an oakensoul build vs a non oakensoul build if you see the two playing side by side. The damage and defenses are notably different.
So let's take that a step farther. Say we nerf empower and tri focus and keep the ring just the same?
Well now everyone is weaker for using that build but the oaken sorc still has 100 percent uptime on 17 buffs with no input required to get them and basically still has the advantage. Sounds like it would almost steer people directly into oaken builds.
I still say just mod the ring a bit to bring it in line defensively and possibly offensively without nerfing it into the ground and everyone will be back to mostly happy.
But like I said I might be wrong and just ask that anyone show me a thread in recent years that was this active in regards to nerfing pve heavy attack builds?0 -
Schared✭✭✭y'all im so confused why it matters if some people get big damage from oakensoul and others get it from different sets?
some people like using two bars and having a challenge and others wanna pay attention to things besides their skillbars and dps, like mechanics which are easier to focus on without needing to keep up timed buffs.
i dont know how important empower is to oakensoul as it wasnt originally a part of it if i recall correctly, but it has clearly given more people a reason to get oakensoul which only seems good?
i thought more damage was desired in trials and dungeons and uh every other part of the game
later this month necrom will likely be on pts and there'll probably be another fun mythic that supposedly is too much for the game.
games are supposed to be fun.
Kinda skipped that one earlier - you appear to be under a apparently common misconception: That the thread is adressing only the daamge of the sets. Rather it does attempt to adress it as a bundle.
Flat out the statement "more dmg good" is obviously correct but generally speaking more damage used to come with a drawback: At times it was the need to play in melee range and be at higher risk, use a lower hp setup, be less tanky, have ressource issues, keeping up a stellar rotation or perhaps more indirectly putting in the effort to get better.
The current setting provides a almost downside less cover of all bases - while obviously 1 bar is a limitation - as many use sorcerers in particular that block out even more skillslots with pets I would suggest that even with just a singular active slot it would still be somewhat competetive.
And to quote you here - games are supossed to be fun, but for many fun lies within challange.cleared AA once i know what iam doing4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Billium813 wrote: »
how does people having fun with oakensoul and lightning staves affect your fun that you clearly like to have in a different way?
This is not a single player game, even though a lot of people seem to think it is, and for the record if oakensoul were to get the pale order treatment that would be a solution but as long as we have it in group content where it is giving an unfair advantage to people, then people will continue complaining.
i never said it was a single player game? oakensoul has made it easier for me to do harder content group content and solo content.
and i thought higher damage was desirable in group content?
I believe this person means by the single player comment that because we generally interact within the mmo we need some level of balance otherwise things seem off. Like if one day a player was running around easily one shotting content with a specific build then all other 300 variations of other possible builds start to feel wayyyy underpowered which throws of the balance of the game feeling like you can be somewhat similarly effective with several builds if you just understand the game.
So most are fine if you do great in solo content. That isn't even an issue here.
As for the group dynamic, yes higher damage is desired however making the game "easy" can become a slippery slope and currently oakensoul seems to make people feel as if it's a little too easy.
To put it in a simpler way, it appears that some people don't feel that loosing 5 skills, a weapon, and an ult is equal to the current 100 percent uptime on 17 major/minor buffs when applied to a heavy attack build.4 -
Skullstachio✭✭✭✭✭Just my 2 cents from an apocryphal standpoint.
It would seem that "A" problem is not entirely just the combination of Storm Master and Sergeant's mail combed together, but with the 100% empower uptime from the oakensoul ring (the ring is also not the problem) it would be this: Empower needs to be slightly dialed back a bit.
I honestly wouldn't mind it being reduced to 50% but at the same time, this buff is also even more dangerous when taking "off-balance" into account which increases the targets heavy attack damage taken by another whopping 70% which pushes the numbers through the roof (especially with certain CP Skill allocations such as master at arms and others.)
So one plausible solution would be to reduce the empower buffs heavy attack damage boost from 80% to 50%, but increase heavy attack damage done to "off-balance" targets from 70% to 100% (maybe 90% as a balance safety net.).
It is a good idea as off-balance only lasts a short time and once expired, the target becomes immune to being off-balance for a long time like it does already, that way all builds regardless of armor sets are on somewhat equal footing surrounding this situation, the empower buff gets pulled back a bit, and oakensoul doesn't have to get shafted.(again.)If you see me anywhere. Know that I am sitting back with a bag of popcorn, watching as ESO burns the goodwill of its player base with practices that only disrespects the players time like it did to me and many others...
If a game does not respect your time, best thing to do is move on from it and find something else.2 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I believe the mention of gorup content here comes into play as it removes some of the interactions between players and essentially grants single-player experience in a group setting.
Perhaps you encountered such groups yourself: Where instead of a singular unit you have 4 soloplayers doing the content at their own pace.
i have not encountered that nomiaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.0 -
LunaFlora✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭y'all im so confused why it matters if some people get big damage from oakensoul and others get it from different sets?
some people like using two bars and having a challenge and others wanna pay attention to things besides their skillbars and dps, like mechanics which are easier to focus on without needing to keep up timed buffs.
i dont know how important empower is to oakensoul as it wasnt originally a part of it if i recall correctly, but it has clearly given more people a reason to get oakensoul which only seems good?
i thought more damage was desired in trials and dungeons and uh every other part of the game
later this month necrom will likely be on pts and there'll probably be another fun mythic that supposedly is too much for the game.
games are supposed to be fun.
Kinda skipped that one earlier - you appear to be under a apparently common misconception: That the thread is adressing only the daamge of the sets. Rather it does attempt to adress it as a bundle.
Flat out the statement "more dmg good" is obviously correct but generally speaking more damage used to come with a drawback: At times it was the need to play in melee range and be at higher risk, use a lower hp setup, be less tanky, have ressource issues, keeping up a stellar rotation or perhaps more indirectly putting in the effort to get better.
The current setting provides a almost downside less cover of all bases - while obviously 1 bar is a limitation - as many use sorcerers in particular that block out even more skillslots with pets I would suggest that even with just a singular active slot it would still be somewhat competetive.
And to quote you here - games are supossed to be fun, but for many fun lies within challange.
the drawback to oakensoul for me is not having another weapon to switch to because i did enjoy using arena weapons like the Vateshran destruction staff.
whilst i get besides losing the second skillbar and weapon there isnt much else you lose
the game is less of a challenge with oakensoul for me which is something that's made the game more fun.
many people find a challenge fun, but i and many others don't find the challenge of two bars and/or light attack weaving fun
miaow! i'm Luna ( she/her ).
🌸*throws cherry blossom on you*🌸
"Eagles advance, traveler! And may the Green watch and keep you."
🦬🦌🐰
PlayStation and PC EU.
LunaLolaBlossom on psn.
LunaFloraBlossom on pc.3 -
Auldwulfe✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
. but, the issue that is most complained about doesn't need Oakensoul...
So I could say nobody complained till oakensoul which is what I believe but that's just what I believe so I'll ask you to tell me when anyone seriously posted about heavy attack builds and had a thread with this many views and replies before oakensoul?
I'm not even joking because hey maybe I missed it but in this thread and to my knowledge I do see that people understand that lightning pulses, heavy attack sets, and empower buffs do make for strong easy damage but that nobody really cared pre oakensoul because without oakensoul you either don't have quite as much damage and defense or if you seem to it at least required you to be more active.
Now I can understand if you're trying to say that people complaining about oaken sorcs means that they really just want tri focus and empower nerfed and if that's what you think that's what you think but to that argument I'll say it's not all about the damage but the damage and survivability and oaken bring both of those in a bigger dose than just a heavy attack build on it's own.
Also let's be clear, it's fairly easy to spot an oakensoul build vs a non oakensoul build if you see the two playing side by side. The damage and defenses are notably different.
So let's take that a step farther. Say we nerf empower and tri focus and keep the ring just the same?
Well now everyone is weaker for using that build but the oaken sorc still has 100 percent uptime on 17 buffs with no input required to get them and basically still has the advantage. Sounds like it would almost steer people directly into oaken builds.
I still say just mod the ring a bit to bring it in line defensively and possibly offensively without nerfing it into the ground and everyone will be back to mostly happy.
But like I said I might be wrong and just ask that anyone show me a thread in recent years that was this active in regards to nerfing pve heavy attack builds?
Because it became clickbait by people on the internet, right after U35 gutted everything else.....
I do want to thank you, though.... last night was hillarious.... I decided to take it as far as I could go.... I reset my attributes to stamina ---- moved a bunch of glyphs to health, and went with Queen's Elegance.
My damage went UP, with the lightning staff --- no sustain issue, at all -- being Imperial gives me extra stamina and health... so about 38K stamina, 35K health, and while only 18K magicka, that doesn't matter
I'm Imperial, and get the 6% discount on ALL skills, as well as the Sorcerer discount on Sorc skills.... mirrored front and back bar... so one bar for all intent and purpose.
My skill bars were both Crit Surge, Radiant Magelight, Daedric Prey, and Both Pets.... parsed at 71K on a dummy, and in Hel Ra on Vet.... averaged 37K
And... the only button I use, outside of boss fights is Crit Surge.... ONE BUTTON...... I have 54% crit, so I am getting the 3300 health back every second.
I have a matron and the free daily tri-stat if I need a quick pickup, and with a 33 second uptime from Crit Surge, as long as I hit it about every 6 heavy attacks, it is never at risk of dropping... so 100% uptime on Major Brutality, and Major Sorcery ---- Radiant Magelight gives me 100% uptime on Major Savagery, and Major Prophecy as a passive.....
And Queen's Elegance gives me 99% uptime on Empower, just by using the mouse button......
As for Monster set.... it became which flashy effect do I want to add... Iceheart though, won.... as it also gave me a 100% uptime damage shield.... and, it does Ice damage..... which can proc chilled, and snare..... rarely, but it is hilarious.
Mind you, I believe this is broken, badly..... but as Oakensoul was not involved, it's perfectly ok with everyone, right?
I did get accused of using Oakensoul... so I stood in front of the guy, and flipped between both of my staffs until he realized I wasn't.... then, got hit by the leap attack, and survived, mostly the shield, but still survived.... a Sorc with 35K health is hilarious.
As was noted by a few people, above - the real problem is that Lightning double dips in the bonus from Sergeant's Mail..... it applies to the pulses, not to the attack as a whole... which is WHY you don't see a plethora of builds around 2-handed weapons......
EVERY one of these uses the lightning staff, and Sergeant's Mail.....
By itself, Oakensoul doesn't do enough to cause the issue, and fixing the broken issue in Lightning Staff would fix the problem.... I know that's not what people WANT to hear... but just nerfing Oakensoul will NOT fix this build..... which is now going to get worse, due to hybridization .... as people figure out how to game the stats......
Outside of the interaction with Sergeant's Mail, and lightning, which I do feel is a bit of an exploit, albeit one that ZOS put in, similar to animation cancelling.... Everything else is working as intended on hybrid.
@Billium813 - I am borrowing your equation, for one moment -
This was posted above, and highlights the actual problem:
this is more of the issue, how the actual weapon heavy attacks work with empower + heavy attack sets
i dont think the oakensoul is bad, i only use it on 1 toon, a WW, because that toon is basically 1 bar all the time anyway, but on other characters i think it would be too limiting (i personally find even 10 skill slots (5 front and 5 back) being too limiting, but thats a different issue lol)
but as noted, lightning staff has 3 dmg ticks, all buffed by empower and all buffed by heavy attack sets + the destro passive giving it 100% aoe cleave dmg is why its so potent
resto doesnt have the aoe, but is potent for the free healing and due to it also being 3 dmg ticks, gets close to the dmg of the lightning staff dmg and can easily outpace heavy attack setups for any other weapon
while 2h has an aoe on hit, its still only 1 single hit, duel wield has 2 hits but no aoe
the rest of the weapons have no aoe, and only 1 single hit
its the multi-hit weapons that definitely make heavy attack setups much more potent because they triple dip on empower + the heavy attack bonuses
to take a hypothetical:
2h heavy attack does 1 hit of 5000 dmg + 3500 dmg from heavy attack sets + 80% from empower (would result in 15300 non crit)
lightning staff attack would say do 5000 total dmg between the 3 ticks
so for this it would be (1000 + 3500 + 80%)x2 + (3000 + 3500 + 80%) = (8100)x2 + 11700 = 16200 + 11700 = 27900 (non crit)
so not even accounting for crits and the cleave passives, a single lightning staff heavy attack with the same bonuses would do nearly 2x the dmg as a 2h weapon heavy attack, even if their base dmg was identical
a more balanced way to approach this would be that HA sets and empower work at only 50% strength on the extra channeled ticks, but be full strength on the final heavy hit, which would close the gap between the HA dmg between the different weapon types
oakensoul is not even close to being the problem IMHO
Again, @Billium813 - thank you for having posted that earlier.
AuldwulfeEdited by Auldwulfe on April 12, 2023 3:08PM2