PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

acastanza_ESO

Accidentally posted this in the sorcerer thread instead of the main feedback thread so here it is again:

ZOS Devs, Repeat after me: Dragonknight does not need in, class access major breserk AT ALL.
Why, why, why, why are you insisting on buffing a class that actually needs nerfs?!
You also expliccitly call out that you buffed one aspect of helping hands "to avoid a nerf" ON THE CLASS THAT NEEDS NERFS?!

Also, you're still not addressing Nightblade's unacceptable unnamed 10% damage buff and the unacceptable damage of spectral bow.

And yet another patch with absolutely nothing for sorcerers, one of the absolute worst PVP classes in the game.

Pelanora

Its time for some responses now, Kevin & zos @ZOS_Kevin Theres a risk it will appear you've asked but then run from the very clear laying out of the tasks in front of you which would enable you to deliver the kind of gaming your customers are asking for.

Remember that meeting customer needs now, gives you a better product for new customers, which gives you the growth you're chasing.

You've basically been given a roadmap for free to carry this game forward.

But you need to acknowledge what you've heard and tell us what you're going to do now. This is discovery and co-design!

Dont do combat like you do new zones or new stories. Do it WITH your customers.

And this elephant in the room needs to addressed: Rich Lambert in a recent interview about impact of new class....

"We're going to watch feedback and look and listen but we don't have any plans to go in and do a wholesale revamp of any of the classes. We got a lot of the same kind of feedback when we launched the Necromancer in 2019, and that started to kind of go away after people had seen it and played it for a little while."


https://wccftech.com/elder-scrolls-online-shadow-over-morrowind-qa-creative-director-talks-necrom-chapter-community-requests/

Look forward to your response.

master_vanargand

@ZOS_Kevin

Just read PTS feedback?
If you don't have enough time, can't you at least promise "I'll incorporate player opinions into the next update"?
We need hope, not despair.

acastanza_ESO

ZOS, if you're going to continue to insist on giving away Major Berserk to everyone then you have to do something to improve the Sorcerer's Atro Ultimate. Providing Major Berserk access was the only significant utility Sorcerer brought to group play in PVE. Giving away our only good group-play buff, coupled with the major (and completely unwarranted) nerfs to the Atro a couple patches ago makes brining a Sorcerer completely pointless in group play in addition to it already being one of the worst classes for PVP.

It's clear that Sorcerer is being completely overlooked from a balance and development standpoint. This patch can not go out like this. Stop giving away Major Berserk without actually assessing how it buffs already overpowered classes, and is an effective nerf to classes that provided it as a group buff (note that Sorcerer's can't even give the buff to themselves! Not even from an ultimate!) @ZOS_Kevin add this to the already extensive feedback we've been giving on how the state of Sorcerer is actually abysmal.

TechMaybeHic

So wait. You have to crit from behind to get minor berserk, but just use chains or wrecking blow to get major for at least as long?

Dayhjawk

My thoughts on the dk stuff:

i'm not a dk, dont play a dk, the only dk buids that i have enjoyed was the dot dk and the healer.. i wish they focus that more than the dps or tank side, in the spirit of "play the way you want", i wish healer DK would get some loving.....

my other issue, is dk chains keeps getting buffs, but silver leash just gets ignored. If dk's chains is giving this buff and doing all the things it does, and silver leash is a dumbed down normal non-special verison... then shuldn't silver leash cost less resources.... silver leash - unleaded gas, dk's chain - premiun.

FeedbackOnly

Snake set hurts healers because negative effects aren't properly done.

As to say only way is for healer to use 5 piece set or purge is only option to counter is a problem.

Set needs a visual cue when applied so healers know to counter it.

Resto staff needs a new passive to assist negative effect removal. Healers should be able to handle negative effects before getting purge

Also priority for removal of negative effects should put this near top.

I like the idea but should make sure has a proper counter for healers so they don't become useless as we remember last set that didn't allow healing by healers had problems for a year or two.

Healers are not the problem. It's dps with over powered healing ♥️

xthrshx

The devs should provide a vision statement for each class that explains their unique strengths, weaknesses, identity, and playstyles. Then, based on that rubric, we can provide meaningful insight into how classes are performing. As is, you’re soliciting feedback in a vacuum. Templar is trash right now and everyone knows it, but we have no idea what you’re trying to accomplish with the class so we’re speaking another language.

Do you remember when you admitted DK were supposed to have huge power at the expense of bad sustain? No one, and I mean no one, would have ever known that was the vision because DK had by far the best sustain in the game. People were literally disabling their resource-return passives in order to parse in Bahsei. We could have easily identified that departure from the class vision if you had shared it.

So now, with Sorc and Templar.

lQrukl

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.

Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.

Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.

Hi all, we had a chat with the dev team about this and wanted to follow up. We've seen your feedback regarding Templar and Sorcerer feeling like they are underperforming compared to the other classes. We would like to get some clarity from you all defining what specifically you mean by "underperforming." Specific details and examples would be helpful. This will give the dev team better context around how the community sees these as underperforming, as that term is broad and can be interpreted differently based on each player's playstyle, build, equipment, played content, etc.

@ZOS_Kevin

Templar:
1) Has no unique support buffs or debuffs anymore (minor sorcery from plar == minor brutality from dk), so it automatically makes templar not viable for support slot (tank or healer) in PvE.
2) DK has alot more aoe damage after nerfing Spear Shards radius and it has higher dps overall, so in any case it's better choice, for e.g. vRG (our group logs Oaxiltso Veteran HM for example). There are no cases where DPS templar is better or even worth its slot in PvE
3) In PvP Templar can't deal decent burst damage even in close range, has worse survivability in mele then DK, has no escape (Streak) or strong offensive ability (Dragon Leap), mediocre range specs (Dark Flare is very situational and difficult to use ability, beam is buggy and it's finisher -> useless without burst possibilities, Living Dark is way worse then Unstable Core), etc. There is no viable playstyle :c
4) In group PvP Templar can provide only sustain from Radiant Aura and burst from Nova's synergy. After harmony trait rework destroyed usefulness of the Nova, Templar became even more dubious choice

Sorcerer (PvE, dd):
1) Has no AoE damage. Pets force to play around single target even more, because of Daedric Prey that has no alternative in PvE
2) Atro's synergy becomes a joke after U37, since every class can get 100% major berserk
3) People don't even joke about the crafter anymore. Many just make rofl HA builds

Pelanora

Just to add, here, @ZOS_Kevin to my post above, and to this thread- this isn't just forum speak.

Every content streamer I've watched, and I've watched a bunch, when asked 'what should i play' by new players, is very clear what is viable in pvp and pve, and there is a consensus, matching what you've been told in here.

So the issues raised here are widely circulated information to new players on twitch.

And, to boot, these new players are all hearing that this game neglects whole classes.

UnassumingNoob

Hi there,

When you are adjusting classes please keep in mind that not all class utility options are as desirable.

Typically when optimizing a run the priority goes something along these lines

1. Damage amplification
2. Damage amplification
3. Damage amplification
4. Ulti Regen when all damage amplification is covered

….(Way down here)

X. Sustain help (Normally symphony on a support is good enough)

All buffs are not created equal and are dictated by the meta. Hybridization and the dynamic flow of double resource bars combined with the standardization of power budget means that flexing in a Stam or Mag skill to better fit your rotation resource needs is easily doable.

Because sustain is in a good spot those classes with only sustain utility are left behind. It’s great that all classes achieve comparable dps. But if they all achieve comparable dps then to optimize you bring the classes that do more group utility. And because damage utility is prioritized over resource return means that some classes are completely overlooked.

Templar is a prime example of this. What they offer to groups is the following.

1. A resource return synergy which is on the same timer as orbs.
2. Minor resource buffs which is not unique to the class.
3. A unique synergy in purge
4. Minor sorcery.

Minor sorcery is matched with a DKs minor brutality. However DK also has stagger and engulfing Flames. And hit amongst the hardest of all classes. Similarly Necro has colossus and hit just as hard.

Templar has no competitive advantage in dps, healing or Tanking. Other classes do it better.

Please remedy this.

Cheers

Cloudrest

I was hoping for some Templar buffs to make the class viable in PvP again (I mean, goodness, 10+ threads and dozens of pages of feedback saying that Backlash does no damage in PvP and the other issue with the class), but it seems like I'll be playing Nightblade until Arcanist releases. Cheers.

gariondavey

Cloudrest wrote: »

I was hoping for some Templar buffs to make the class viable in PvP again (I mean, goodness, 10+ threads and dozens of pages of feedback saying that Backlash does no damage in PvP and the other issue with the class), but it seems like I'll be playing Nightblade until Arcanist releases. Cheers.

Zos...when you see statements coming from a player like cloudrest (one of PCNA's best templars)...you have really dropped the ball.

Syiccal

Cloudrest wrote: »

I was hoping for some Templar buffs to make the class viable in PvP again (I mean, goodness, 10+ threads and dozens of pages of feedback saying that Backlash does no damage in PvP and the other issue with the class), but it seems like I'll be playing Nightblade until Arcanist releases. Cheers.

And that is exactly what they want to be fair, to make og classes so underwhelming arcanist is a must play

Sergykid

why is so commonly thought that templar minor sorc buff is the same as dk minor brut buff.

this is a clear example, among many others, that forum is not a good place to follow feedback when they update or adjust the game.
Most often posts are biased, misinformed, or simply plain wrong.

if they wanted players feedback they could have made an ingame form, maybe a mail, sent to all players that played often, have at least 1k cp, did a dlc hm on at least two classes, have over 10k achiev points.

forum is for communication and discussions, not optimal for feedback as players may not even play the game, or play one class and have no clue about anything else.

TechMaybeHic

Sergykid wrote: »

why is so commonly thought that templar minor sorc buff is the same as dk minor brut buff.

this is a clear example, among many others, that forum is not a good place to follow feedback when they update or adjust the game.
Most often posts are biased, misinformed, or simply plain wrong.

if they wanted players feedback they could have made an ingame form, maybe a mail, sent to all players that played often, have at least 1k cp, did a dlc hm on at least two classes, have over 10k achiev points.

forum is for communication and discussions, not optimal for feedback as players may not even play the game, or play one class and have no clue about anything else.

It gets to be effectively the same when weapon and spell damage are going to be equal on most builds once PTS changes go live that make the jewelery Harm glyphs all give both. Whether you get brutality or sorcery doesn't matter if your highest is used anyway. The only thing that will make it uneven after that, would be spell power potions over weapon damage potions which you'd pick based on what recovery you want that comes with it

lQrukl

Sergykid wrote: »

why is so commonly thought that templar minor sorc buff is the same as dk minor brut buff

Because they are the same. You need only change jewelry echantments depending on who is in your group: Templar or DK.
And given the fact that DK is always required, you don't need templar -> you just max weapon damage instead of spell damage.
Abilities are scaled from the highest stats, praise hybridization!

katorga

Syiccal wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

I was hoping for some Templar buffs to make the class viable in PvP again (I mean, goodness, 10+ threads and dozens of pages of feedback saying that Backlash does no damage in PvP and the other issue with the class), but it seems like I'll be playing Nightblade until Arcanist releases. Cheers.

And that is exactly what they want to be fair, to make og classes so underwhelming arcanist is a must play

That is not accurate.

Look at DK, look at NB. As OG as it gets. Miles ahead of the other classes.

Warden is OK.

The other classes are all ruined now.

I bet that Arcanist is, at best, as good as warden, but they will really have to work to overload it as much as DK and NB have been overloaded. But you never know....I could see "each light attach generates 1 crux, at 3 Crux the next skill does 125% damage and is free to cast" and then giving them a reskin of Assassins Will that needs 3 light attacks to proc.

Rest assured, Arcanist will get a source of major sorcery/brutality, while necro STILL doesn't have it.

I bet Arcanist also has major berserk on its spammable which would explain why NB got 10% damage on concealed and DK got berserk on chains....to dampen the uproar b4 it happens.

TechMaybeHic

katorga wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Cloudrest wrote: »

I was hoping for some Templar buffs to make the class viable in PvP again (I mean, goodness, 10+ threads and dozens of pages of feedback saying that Backlash does no damage in PvP and the other issue with the class), but it seems like I'll be playing Nightblade until Arcanist releases. Cheers.

And that is exactly what they want to be fair, to make og classes so underwhelming arcanist is a must play

That is not accurate.

Look at DK, look at NB. As OG as it gets. Miles ahead of the other classes.

Warden is OK.

The other classes are all ruined now.

I bet that Arcanist is, at best, as good as warden, but they will really have to work to overload it as much as DK and NB have been overloaded. But you never know....I could see "each light attach generates 1 crux, at 3 Crux the next skill does 125% damage and is free to cast" and then giving them a reskin of Assassins Will that needs 3 light attacks to proc.

Rest assured, Arcanist will get a source of major sorcery/brutality, while necro STILL doesn't have it.

I bet Arcanist also has major berserk on its spammable which would explain why NB got 10% damage on concealed and DK got berserk on chains....to dampen the uproar b4 it happens.

My suspicion is, if you look around the forum at the complaints about DK being too good, or NBs AW damage; they will get a major nerf right as Arcanist comes out pointing to those issues as justification. At the same time; Necro, plar, and Sorc will get modest buffs to appear it's all just part of overall balance and no other intent. Warden will be the "control" that sits pat.

I would then bet Arcanist will be similar to how Necro was with it's unique mechanic being clunky in effort to make it interesting but wind up pretty disjointed with some OP niche aspects to be worth the sake price.

Sergykid

who is even changing jewel enchants depending if u have a dk or templar in group. If half the group has spell dmg enchants and u don't have a templar in group they are missing 10%,
that's been my point @TechMaybeHic @lQrukl
yes this will change when glyphs on jewels hybridise but my point is that those class buffs are still different, even if they become "the same" for dds in a group

Syiccal

Sergykid wrote: »

who is even changing jewel enchants depending if u have a dk or templar in group. If half the group has spell dmg enchants and u don't have a templar in group they are missing 10%,
that's been my point @TechMaybeHic @lQrukl
yes this will change when glyphs on jewels hybridise but my point is that those class buffs are still different, even if they become "the same" for dds in a group

Going forward though it will make no difference if you have a temp or dk as enchants will just give dmg which can be buffed by either class , further diminishing templar minor sorcery.

Turtle_Bot

Sergykid wrote: »

who is even changing jewel enchants depending if u have a dk or templar in group.

Everyone who wants to do high level group based pve or pvp (yes even small scale pvpers do this too) will always slot the correct enchant to suit their group composition because to not do so means they are giving up on free damage since everything scales off whichever is higher so it doesn't matter which one you build into for yourself, you build into whatever will give you the most out of either and with DK currently being so strong, that is weapon damage unless a group is doing a no DK run for fun.

The only time players won't use whatever is best for their group is if they are doing a pug run with randoms at which point they will just slot whatever they are used to and even then your more likely to just use weapon damage enchants anyway since majority of players are on DK at the moment with how much stronger that class is compared to the others. This means its more likely to get that minor brutality buff than it would be to get the minor sorcery buff from plar which is currently not in a good spot.

Tannus15

I change enchants based on if i want to run a mag spammable or a stam spammable. it's not just group composition it can come down to which build as well.
for classes that don't have easy access to major proph / sav then this is unfortunately a reality

TechMaybeHic

Doesn't matter what enchant you have after PTS is the point, as harm offers both on one enchant

proteinexe

gariondavey wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
Can either of you confirm if templar is getting some buffs and attention this patch cycle?

The fact that week 3 notes are out and there isn't anything on the matter is frankly...concerning.

Templars have been relegated to beam bots. Please restore some of our offensive strength to jabs and backlash. Beam can be decreased to compensate.

The IMMENSE negative response around the changes to jabs, burning light, and backlash has hopefully reached your ears. Please. Do something.

Tag me if you respond, please.

This, please!

My Templar main has essentially been out of action for PvP, and PvE feels so incredibly hollow not using the majority of Templar’s abilities. The bread and butter (jabs) is now redundant for PvE and for PvP it’s pretty soft as a spammable, backlash is laughable for PvP and burning light is a shadow of it’s former self.

I mirror Garion’s concerns when in week 3, usually a week where we see lots of buffs/nerfs/changes, templar hasn't been touched, and so I’m worried that the Dev team may leave Templar until early Summer to make the necessary changes to make Templar a viable class for.. well.. pretty much anything. Please dont let this be the case, you’ve done really well in communicating with us and seeing the interaction/questions being asked that we needed from yourselves was quite honestly a shock but a welcome one. Dont let it go to waste, this is what we need from you.

gariondavey

gariondavey wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
Can either of you confirm if templar is getting some buffs and attention this patch cycle?

The fact that week 3 notes are out and there isn't anything on the matter is frankly...concerning.

Templars have been relegated to beam bots. Please restore some of our offensive strength to jabs and backlash. Beam can be decreased to compensate.

The IMMENSE negative response around the changes to jabs, burning light, and backlash has hopefully reached your ears. Please. Do something.

Tag me if you respond, please.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin please communicate to us templars

Tannus15

it's week 3. it's safe to say at this point these are the final changes before live.
from here it's just bug fixes.

i'm glad the dk chains got nerfed. i'm sad wrecking blow is going to be the new meta.

Mr_Stach

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's week 3. it's safe to say at this point these are the final changes before live.
from here it's just bug fixes.

i'm glad the dk chains got nerfed. i'm sad wrecking blow is going to be the new meta.

proteinexe

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's week 3. it's safe to say at this point these are the final changes before live.
from here it's just bug fixes.

i'm glad the dk chains got nerfed. i'm sad wrecking blow is going to be the new meta.

I still hold out hope that they'll follow through with at least some changes that we've recommended to Templar, otherwise if we have to wait till Summer (and potentially longer because they wont want class changes to interfere with the new class), then I'll be thoroughly disappointed with how the dev's have baited us into having hope by actually interreacting and asking us how they can make the class Templar (and Sorcerer to some extent), viable again.

Billium813

Tannus15 wrote: »

it's week 3. it's safe to say at this point these are the final changes before live.
from here it's just bug fixes.

i'm glad the dk chains got nerfed. i'm sad wrecking blow is going to be the new meta.

Speaking of...

Perfected Radial Uppercut

(2 items) Adds 1190 Offensive Penetration, Uppercut deals 45% of its damage to all enemies near your primary target.

ZOS, can we please get the description on Radial Uppercut improved to give the actual area size? It looks like it's 5-6m, but I'm not sure.