Assassin's Will is balanced

TechMaybeHic

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

After loading into my Templar that was left in Stonefalls (the dueling area of Ebonheart Pact) this Christmas morning… one thing became blatantly obvious.

I was the only one there that was not on a Magicka Nightblade. There were 6 other players there, all Magicka Nightblades, all running the same high damage build, baiting Spectral Bows.

Last time I have ever seen this level of migration to one individual class for dueling, was when the Homestead patch came out with a whole line of Magicka Dragonknight buffs.

Generally speaking, if everyone you run into are playing the class in question, using the ability in question, it’s probably because it’s overperforming somewhere.

As someone who's maimed templar since beta; I feel you, but I've been between Necro and NB since POTL/PL became awful and I can tell you getting the NB burst all lined up and to land is a lot but a lot of work to get it just right; same as a harmony Necro trying to line up avid and blast bones with an ult. Thing is; NB now also has an equivalent burst heal as the others, extra modifier to damage, a way to garauntee a crit and of course; the ability to cloak for the entirety of resolving vigor ticks.

Its not the bow proc. The effort for damage is there. Its the multipliers, and invisibility, and ability to go invisible at will that takes other classes a pot once a minute, and ability to teleport back at will which takes other classes a very unreliable ultimate every few minutes; yet still having as good if burst heal and survivability as the other classes.

NBs are supposed to be damage. They just have everything else as well to go with a toolkit that would make batman blush

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@TechMaybeHic

Not to single you out... But I agree and got a good chuckle out of the comparison to batman. So I want to ask you something, since it doesn't look like you've cast a vote yet.

Nightblades have a startlingly useful kit within their class. Invisibility... Guaranteed crits... Teleportation, minor maim, major cowardice, minor cowardice, AoE stun, 10% damage done, major defile OR 20% damage done, a burst heal, some hots, a good spammable and execute, major evasion, roll dodge cost reduction.

They have at least 3 unique arguably OP things that nobody else has, coupled with basically everything everyone else has. They can gank, they can bomb, they can brawl, they can heal.

I'm not upset they're so strong... I just think it's funny people act like the only way to kill is to have a preposterous tooltip on assassin's will. And I don't really want the class nerfed-- I'm glad to see nb step out of the shadows a little bit.

So my question to you is, isn't it just simpler to make assassin's will do less damage than to nerf nb in other ways and relegate them back to ganker status?

Personally I think if nbs weren't crutching on this overpowered skill they'd find out how useful the rest of their kit was and how many ways they can successfully play.

I am also not particularly swayed by how "hard it is to land" when people simply run away from corrosive DKs, time and avoid warden beetles, and roll dodge everything a sorc throws at them. Keeping your buffs up and weaving light attacks is the VERY least that can be asked of an experienced ESO player.

Dueling a meta nb at this point is managing your stam and roll dodging incap/spec bow as many times in a row as you can and every time you're successful they either heal full or go invisible to reset the fight and try again. And the moment you're unsuccessful you're dead.

I say leave them everything else and eliminate this cookie-cutter uncreative rinse and repeat trash.

Imagine... a player who struggles to keep uptime on a largely passive ability or generate stacks of light attacks telling someone else "chill bro, all you have to do is roll dodge."

baselesschart

Yes balanced

@OBJnoob

I think what they ought to do is simply revert concealed weapon to what it was before. Since the ability wasn't an issue prior to that change back in update 35, if I recall, then wouldn't it suggest that that extra 10% pushed it over the edge

Also considering the lack of people running impen, plus every nightblade running night mother's gaze, that is an absolutely massive supplement to the damage of the bow, which both of those factors are external and have nothing to do with nightblade's kit.

I have nvidia shadowplay constantly running and I capture many clips, and I don't consistently hit crazy high numbers on bow procs. I run pretty much full damage and am fairly glass cannon. I would guess my average bow proc on crit is 11-12k which is easily manageable with the heals that most classes have.

TechMaybeHic

OBJnoob wrote: »

@TechMaybeHic

Not to single you out... But I agree and got a good chuckle out of the comparison to batman. So I want to ask you something, since it doesn't look like you've cast a vote yet.

Nightblades have a startlingly useful kit within their class. Invisibility... Guaranteed crits... Teleportation, minor maim, major cowardice, minor cowardice, AoE stun, 10% damage done, major defile OR 20% damage done, a burst heal, some hots, a good spammable and execute, major evasion, roll dodge cost reduction.

They have at least 3 unique arguably OP things that nobody else has, coupled with basically everything everyone else has. They can gank, they can bomb, they can brawl, they can heal.

I'm not upset they're so strong... I just think it's funny people act like the only way to kill is to have a preposterous tooltip on assassin's will. And I don't really want the class nerfed-- I'm glad to see nb step out of the shadows a little bit.

So my question to you is, isn't it just simpler to make assassin's will do less damage than to nerf nb in other ways and relegate them back to ganker status?

Personally I think if nbs weren't crutching on this overpowered skill they'd find out how useful the rest of their kit was and how many ways they can successfully play.

I am also not particularly swayed by how "hard it is to land" when people simply run away from corrosive DKs, time and avoid warden beetles, and roll dodge everything a sorc throws at them. Keeping your buffs up and weaving light attacks is the VERY least that can be asked of an experienced ESO player.

Dueling a meta nb at this point is managing your stam and roll dodging incap/spec bow as many times in a row as you can and every time you're successful they either heal full or go invisible to reset the fight and try again. And the moment you're unsuccessful you're dead.

I say leave them everything else and eliminate this cookie-cutter uncreative rinse and repeat trash.

Imagine... a player who struggles to keep uptime on a largely passive ability or generate stacks of light attacks telling someone else "chill bro, all you have to do is roll dodge."

They are supposed to be damage, and they do not have delayed combos nor DOT pressure. Them being able to heal as much as others is a problem. Passive multipliers should not be there as much as it is. And you cannot get all those things on your NB without sitting there and doing nothing but buff.

Other classes should have as many options with the same problem where they cannot get it all on their bar effectively, but then have their own flavor probably lacking the bow proc burst of NB but maybe a heal for templar that stands out (now that everyone has a HTD equivalent). Like Necor self synergy and harmony, if it werent for the synergies being so glitchy and not to mention randos hitting your synergies while you are the one with actual harmony. The problem with simply just nerfing assasins will outside of the no delayed burst or pressure compliment is you homogenize and that has been awful for most other classes. Its making for teribbly boring gameplay where the other classes are so cookie cutter by being limited.

Cloudrest

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

After loading into my Templar that was left in Stonefalls (the dueling area of Ebonheart Pact) this Christmas morning… one thing became blatantly obvious.

I was the only one there that was not on a Magicka Nightblade. There were 6 other players there, all Magicka Nightblades, all running the same high damage build, baiting Spectral Bows.

Last time I have ever seen this level of migration to one individual class for dueling, was when the Homestead patch came out with a whole line of Magicka Dragonknight buffs.

Generally speaking, if everyone you run into are playing the class in question, using the ability in question, it’s probably because it’s overperforming somewhere.

Dueling is not indicative of wider class balance across different game activities. Certain classes and builds have always been over-represented in dueling like Magplar and MagDK having been staples for years.

Templar used to be dominant in the dueling meta for years despite being mediocre at best in Cyrodiil for 1vX. Starting with Blackwood, only then was it performing well in Cyrodiil, too-- and was arguably one of the S-tier classes until Firesong. Since the recent patch, I've rarely seen Templars that aren't full healers/beam bots. Can probably count them on one hand, and I'm included in the number trying to make the class work with middling success.

People crutch on the meta as it delivers good results in dueling, but I honestly haven't seen a massive influx of hybrid nightblade enjoyers in Cyrodiil, or even nightblades in general. I'd be more concerned if I did see a lot of them, just like how Cyrodiil was filled with Bowsorcs for a patch, DK's for a patch, Templars for a patch, etc etc.

That being said, Nightblade is incredibly strong atm, but it isn't due to Assassin's Will. The 10% free damage on concealed and recent changes to the class burst heal have made it a bit absurd and has enabled brawler playstyles in full damage sets that previously required Dark Cloak and some tanky mitigation to survive.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They are supposed to be damage, and they do not have delayed combos nor DOT pressure. Them being able to heal as much as others is a problem. Passive multipliers should not be there as much as it is. And you cannot get all those things on your NB without sitting there and doing nothing but buff.

Other classes should have as many options with the same problem where they cannot get it all on their bar effectively, but then have their own flavor probably lacking the bow proc burst of NB but maybe a heal for templar that stands out (now that everyone has a HTD equivalent). Like Necor self synergy and harmony, if it werent for the synergies being so glitchy and not to mention randos hitting your synergies while you are the one with actual harmony. The problem with simply just nerfing assasins will outside of the no delayed burst or pressure compliment is you homogenize and that has been awful for most other classes. Its making for teribbly boring gameplay where the other classes are so cookie cutter by being limited.

Hmm. Well, thanks for responding to me. I understand what you're saying and I don't really know why the decision was made to buff concealed weapon in such a way. I'm not a big fan of it myself... It just seems to me that assassin's will has always over performed, not just now.

I mean how did they kill before? It was incap+assassin's will+caluurions, right? For years. At least according to the timeline of changes, it would SEEM as though the extra 10% on concealed is compensation for the nerf to caluurions. So instead of landing 3 hits in 2 gcds for 10k each now they land only 2 hits but for 15k each. Seems to me like nothing important has changed at all.

Probably because the actual thing that makes the whole thing work hasn't been touched yet

I understand we don't want to steal the nightblades identity but I just don't think that's in jeopardy. They are arguably the most iconic and unique class, tied perhaps with sorcs, and when you ask yourself why the answer is invisibility not assassin's will.

Invisibility is also the reason why suggesting they NEED to be able to 2-shot because they have no delayed burst makes me go "meh." Invisible people who can 2-shot 50% of the population... That's a pretty balance-breaking identity to have. Time to give them a new one.

Turtle_Bot

No not balanced

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

React wrote: »

2) Shadowy disguise - fatigue added, just like streak or roll dodge.

The only way I can see something like that happening is if ZOS would remove all of those cloak hard-counters they have been adding over the years, so it would have same amount of counters as streak has. Slapping increased cost while keeping every stealth countering ability as it is now would be just an over-kill. Streak has it, because there are no streak counters (not in the same scope as we have stealth counters).

Note: What do I mean by "hard counter" ? :

Something that prevents you from using the ability in a 1st place (and is easy & reliable to apply while still allowing to put pressure), or disables / cancels out the ability split second after it was casted, effectively causing you to only waste resources while looking as if you are having a seizure & not gaining any benefit.

With how bad performance is, invis has just as few "hard counters" as streak does. The only reliable counter to both abilities is potions (detect for invis, immo for streak), which have a 45 second cooldown and a 15 second uptime.
mage light and camo hunter have far too small of a radius to be effective in pvp where positional desyncs are rife allowing for nbs to go invis less than 1 second after being "revealed" by those skills (if they are even revealed at all) while flare has a better radius and the stun, but again has the same issues with positional desyncs and is far too expensive (20% more than invis).

Zos has also been adding plenty of "hard counters" for streak over the years too. It's called stuns, immobilizes, pulls, CC immunity and gap closers (often gap closers come with stuns attached too) which every class has in their kits and are also available in all stamina weapon lines. So to say that streak has so few hard counters is outright wrong. It's not sorcs fault that players don't slot/use the counters for streak.

So a ramping cost (fatigue) is more than warranted for shadowy disguise. Especially since it also gives a guaranteed crit (which procs all sorts of other passives and procs as well) and how overtuned the rest of the class's kit is.

Thecompton73

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

They are supposed to be damage, and they do not have delayed combos nor DOT pressure. Them being able to heal as much as others is a problem. Passive multipliers should not be there as much as it is. And you cannot get all those things on your NB without sitting there and doing nothing but buff.

Other classes should have as many options with the same problem where they cannot get it all on their bar effectively, but then have their own flavor probably lacking the bow proc burst of NB but maybe a heal for templar that stands out (now that everyone has a HTD equivalent). Like Necor self synergy and harmony, if it werent for the synergies being so glitchy and not to mention randos hitting your synergies while you are the one with actual harmony. The problem with simply just nerfing assasins will outside of the no delayed burst or pressure compliment is you homogenize and that has been awful for most other classes. Its making for teribbly boring gameplay where the other classes are so cookie cutter by being limited.

Hmm. Well, thanks for responding to me. I understand what you're saying and I don't really know why the decision was made to buff concealed weapon in such a way. I'm not a big fan of it myself... It just seems to me that assassin's will has always over performed, not just now.

I mean how did they kill before? It was incap+assassin's will+caluurions, right? For years. At least according to the timeline of changes, it would SEEM as though the extra 10% on concealed is compensation for the nerf to caluurions. So instead of landing 3 hits in 2 gcds for 10k each now they land only 2 hits but for 15k each. Seems to me like nothing important has changed at all.

Probably because the actual thing that makes the whole thing work hasn't been touched yet

I understand we don't want to steal the nightblades identity but I just don't think that's in jeopardy. They are arguably the most iconic and unique class, tied perhaps with sorcs, and when you ask yourself why the answer is invisibility not assassin's will.

Invisibility is also the reason why suggesting they NEED to be able to 2-shot because they have no delayed burst makes me go "meh." Invisible people who can 2-shot 50% of the population... That's a pretty balance-breaking identity to have. Time to give them a new one.

I'm not a brainy mathematician or anything but I'm pretty sure adding 10% onto 10,000 makes it 11,000, not 15,000.

The_Titan_Tim

No not balanced

Cloudrest wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

After loading into my Templar that was left in Stonefalls (the dueling area of Ebonheart Pact) this Christmas morning… one thing became blatantly obvious.

I was the only one there that was not on a Magicka Nightblade. There were 6 other players there, all Magicka Nightblades, all running the same high damage build, baiting Spectral Bows.

Last time I have ever seen this level of migration to one individual class for dueling, was when the Homestead patch came out with a whole line of Magicka Dragonknight buffs.

Generally speaking, if everyone you run into are playing the class in question, using the ability in question, it’s probably because it’s overperforming somewhere.

Dueling is not indicative of wider class balance across different game activities. Certain classes and builds have always been over-represented in dueling like Magplar and MagDK having been staples for years.

Templar used to be dominant in the dueling meta for years despite being mediocre at best in Cyrodiil for 1vX. Starting with Blackwood, only then was it performing well in Cyrodiil, too-- and was arguably one of the S-tier classes until Firesong. Since the recent patch, I've rarely seen Templars that aren't full healers/beam bots. Can probably count them on one hand, and I'm included in the number trying to make the class work with middling success.

People crutch on the meta as it delivers good results in dueling, but I honestly haven't seen a massive influx of hybrid nightblade enjoyers in Cyrodiil, or even nightblades in general. I'd be more concerned if I did see a lot of them, just like how Cyrodiil was filled with Bowsorcs for a patch, DK's for a patch, Templars for a patch, etc etc.

That being said, Nightblade is incredibly strong atm, but it isn't due to Assassin's Will. The 10% free damage on concealed and recent changes to the class burst heal have made it a bit absurd and has enabled brawler playstyles in full damage sets that previously required Dark Cloak and some tanky mitigation to survive.

As far as Assassin’s Will overperforming, it is, and I stand by that. The reasons it are overperforming may be coming from outside sources, but nonetheless, the ability is hitting too hard in comparison to everything else.

Nightblades are and have been the king of 1vX ever since the beginning of ESO through the use of Shadowy Disguise and Shadow Image, sorry for assuming that people that PvP, as we’re talking about how Assassin’s Will applies to PvP, would inherently know that.

As far as using dueling as an example for balance? It is the perfect tool for balance, as this is the only content in the game that doesn’t involve a 3rd party to mess up your assessments… you are taking Class A and Class B without any other variables and examining how they weigh up to each other. If one weighs heavier, it’s imbalanced. It’s as clean-cut as it gets.

Your logic would dictate that although Templar is trash at dueling due to its loss of single target damage with Biting Jabs and Power of the Light, it still does good AoE damage, therefore the class is in a generally balanced state, and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you how many people would challenge that…

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621126/templar-underperforming#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622843/templar-identity#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623022/blazing-shield#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621581/purify-power-of-the-light-u36#latest

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623771/suggestion-for-the-backlash-templar-skill-and-burning-light#latest (Pretty sure you’re the OP on this link if I’m not mistaken…)

OBJnoob

No not balanced

Thecompton73 wrote: »

I'm not a brainy mathematician or anything but I'm pretty sure adding 10% onto 10,000 makes it 11,000, not 15,000.

You're right.

I'm not a brainy mathematician either, that's why I throw out estimated numbers meant to make a point rather than stand up to rigorous testing.

The number 15 is probably too big. 11 is too small though. Why? Because without the need to run caluurions (something nightblades used to complain about having to do to be competitive,) they now run a better stat set to boost the two hits.

So I don't know, let's say two hits of 13k and then we understand each other?

I think the point was made better with my original numbers though-- not because they were strictly accurate-- but because they depicted a scenario where nightblades are better now than they were then. Which they certainly are.

Cloudrest

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

stuff

Yeah, I'm not too sure how you drew the conclusion that I think Templar's in a generally balanced state from my post, given the fact that I wrote an entire thread on how bad POTL/PL is and suggestions on how to improve it-- and made it pretty clear that it was good until Firesong. I was warned about people on the forums, and I guess I should have heeded it. Regardless, Stamblade has been a top-tier class for 1vX for the last couple of years, whilst Magblade has been sorely lacking until recent buffs to Concealed and Healthy Offering. Again, those two things are why NB is overperforming. If you nerf Assassin's Will, NB gets the Templar treatment and becomes functionally useless.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

As far as using dueling as an example for balance? It is the perfect tool for balance, as this is the only content in the game that doesn’t involve a 3rd party to mess up your assessments… you are taking Class A and Class B without any other variables and examining how they weigh up to each other. If one weighs heavier, it’s imbalanced. It’s as clean-cut as it gets.

Any other variables? Lol. That's some extremely flawed logic. You're forgetting that experience and mechanics play heavily into dueling. A good player on a bad class will wipe a bad player on a good class. An experienced nightblade will wipe an average nightblade. There's so many variables that come into play and judging Cyrodiil balance based on what people are FOTMing in a dueling environment doesn't track.

The_Titan_Tim

No not balanced

Cloudrest wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

stuff

Yeah, I'm not too sure how you drew the conclusion that I think Templar's in a generally balanced state from my post, given the fact that I wrote an entire thread on how bad POTL/PL is and suggestions on how to improve it-- and made it pretty clear that it was good until Firesong. I was warned about people on the forums, and I guess I should have heeded it. Regardless, Stamblade has been a top-tier class for 1vX for the last couple of years, whilst Magblade has been sorely lacking until recent buffs to Concealed and Healthy Offering. Again, those two things are why NB is overperforming. If you nerf Assassin's Will, NB gets the Templar treatment and becomes functionally useless.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

As far as using dueling as an example for balance? It is the perfect tool for balance, as this is the only content in the game that doesn’t involve a 3rd party to mess up your assessments… you are taking Class A and Class B without any other variables and examining how they weigh up to each other. If one weighs heavier, it’s imbalanced. It’s as clean-cut as it gets.

Any other variables? Lol. That's some extremely flawed logic. You're forgetting that experience and mechanics play heavily into dueling. A good player on a bad class will wipe a bad player on a good class. An experienced nightblade will wipe an average nightblade. There's so many variables that come into play and judging Cyrodiil balance based on what people are FOTMing in a dueling environment doesn't track.

MagBlade X’ing was phenomenal even before the hybridization changes, it just involved a higher skill curve and a proper ability line-up. It was harder than Stamblade, but you had unlimited access to your utility skills as they all cost Magicka. Of course, it was nowhere near as good as it was when you could make people run away from you with Mass Hysteria, or heal as much damage as you dealt with Sap Essence, but nonetheless it was possible, and at a high skill level; very rewarding,

Never once did the opening thread mention directly touching the ability in question; but rather about whether the ability is overperforming, as it’s clear it’s overperforming from external sources… it’s still overperforming, which was the OP’s question.

To the Templar topic again, as far as Cyrodiil is concerned, Templar isn’t overly impacted, coming from a 2015 Templar main, that has over 100 days clocked in on it, group utility is unquestionably good, it’s when the fight inevitably boils down to a duel after killing off all of the greedy players trying to X you down, that you feel the single target damage missing from your kit as you don’t have what it takes to finish the fight if your opponent has even one defensive set equipped; back to dueling.

Speaking for dueling, you have to be able to take someone down in a 1v1, to be able to fight multiple people at once. And for the record, I play on Xbox, we haven’t received the new servers so the majority of my PvP and most of the better solo players, end up dueling, if you wanna come hang out and see how much experience I have, or of our community, feel free as Grayhost becomes literally unplayable when even one ball group gets on, in any faction.

Referring to the last paragraph, base your presumptions around the fact that I know all about the many factors of dueling and how you can build specifically for it and the experience that goes into determining your ability to perform, ie; simply by med-weaving off-balanced targets before big hits for guarantees, or roll dodge catching players, mixed with the combinations of sets.

After all, it’s the only content that works for us right now, and who’s to say the new servers will even fix Cyrodiil for us console players, apparently it’s degrading on your end.

Cast_El

No not balanced

Every nightblade: "yes"
Every other classes:"no"

😆

The truth: it's not.

Exemple : 30k resist, vamp stage3, 3200crit resistance+major protection.

I got hit by 8k nightblade ultimate and got hit by 18k assassin's will at 65%of life.

This ability hit 2 times harder than ultimate ability. This is wrong

Nightblade is good to start because it's easy to play but peoples stick with it instead of learning how to play pvp with other classes.
(I am not talking about non-ganker-build)

Cloudrest

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

snip

Lol.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

Cast_El wrote: »

Every nightblade: "yes"
Every other classes:"no"

😆

The truth: it's not.

Exemple : 30k resist, vamp stage3, 3200crit resistance+major protection.

I got hit by 8k nightblade ultimate and got hit by 18k assassin's will at 65%of life.

This ability hit 2 times harder than ultimate ability. This is wrong

Nightblade is good to start because it's easy to play but peoples stick with it instead of learning how to play pvp with other classes.
(I am not talking about non-ganker-build)

You were hit by someone who had probably used a 500 ult balorgh. 11.5k on your resistances negated from balorgh, plus they probably had around 10k pen normally, for simplicity sake, and then another 6k debuff on your resists from night mothers which I'm certain they were using. You were left with roughly 2.5k resists give or take. Was an unfortunate situation for you, bow doesn't always hit that hard.

IZZEFlameLash

No not balanced

Cast_El wrote: »

Every nightblade: "yes"
Every other classes:"no"

😆

The truth: it's not.

Exemple : 30k resist, vamp stage3, 3200crit resistance+major protection.

I got hit by 8k nightblade ultimate and got hit by 18k assassin's will at 65%of life.

This ability hit 2 times harder than ultimate ability. This is wrong

Nightblade is good to start because it's easy to play but peoples stick with it instead of learning how to play pvp with other classes.
(I am not talking about non-ganker-build)

When Sorc frag hit just as hard as current Assassin's Will, many NBs called for nerf to DBoS + Frag combo because of the damage from each of them being enough to delete 30k health (my personal highest was 20k on frag 13k on DBoS from screenshots that survived migration of rigs) while Sorcs made the exact same arguments presented here such as 'tank meta, so this damage is ok', 'easy to dodge because telegraphed' (which is a yes/no. Telegraphed, yes, because once the sorc had frag proc'd which has vfx around the arms and it's been a while since their last ult, you knew they will drop the combo soon. Dodgeable? No, because of the way how you could cancel entire anim of DBoS back in the days + if you are in a region with 200+ pings constantly like me, pretty much impossible to react to unless you fortunately did an defensive act before you got knocked down). Oh and don't forget the detailed explanation of how that damage happened to you. Majority of the NBs back then weren't convinced. Now, I am seeing NBs using the same arguments. Ironic. Though, now I miss my 20k frag proc and 25k meteor on my sorc.

Xarc

Yes balanced

every class has its own super skill.

so it's balanced.
And what makes it isnt the skill itself but build with sets/perks

blktauna

I can tell most of you don't run NBs. Half the stuff you say is op and needs nerfing barely works in cyrodil and now everyone runs sentry and sneezing pulls you out of stealth even more than before.

Mass Hysteria fails alot for me so I stopped using it. Range is screwed so most of the time ambush fails. Now shadow image isnt working in IC. Incap might go off if the stars align.

If you get slapped, its by someone very good who's really on their game. They deserve kudos.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@blktauna nightblades aren't the only class who suffers from lag in cyrodiil. I give kudos to anyone that kills me, to a certain extent. Less when I was outnumbered. Less when I couldn't return fire because the other person was invisible. Less when I'm being bow sniped repeatedly by the person I'm not focusing on. Less when I get incapped and assassin's willed from behind while fighting someone else.

They have an AoE stun that applies major cowardice. They have an AoE attack that applies minor cowardice and grants them minor courage. So they have about 1k more weapon damage than you, not including their unique 30% damage done, guaranteed crits, or unrivaled synergy with vampire passives.

But people will say "there's no room for that on our bar" "that's not the meta way to play nb." Imagine having tools other people would die for but not using them cuz your old standby is so much better. Now imagine roaming around cyrodiil invisible, unobstructed, choosing exactly where when and who to attack.

Just nerf assassin's will for crying out loud. You nightblades are lucky we aren't demanding more.

blktauna

So you just don't like it when you arent in a duel. I get it, getting ganked while your attention is elsewhere is annoying. But I hate getting serial rooted and leaped down because CC immunity is a lie. It's just the way of things.

Sure everyone lags but NB is all extremely close timing and positioning. Both are screwed in Cyrodil now, so the stars really have to align to have things go off. I can't even get pots to go off reliably so my hat is off to people who manage to keep assassins will stacks going. I don't use it because I can't keep it going reliably.

Most NBs now dont run cloak because its so easy to be pulled out. I don't even use it now and it was my favourite NB skill. Haven't tried the other morph because why? I use vigour.

Mass hysteria is ok but you really need to build into it and I don't. I build into weapons I like more. The siphoning skills are fun in spots but everyone is running so much mitigation they really are worthless.

Most of the NB toolkit is meh, in all honesty. You really have to work vey hard to get results but if you hit it right you really get them. I have far less trouble on my DK and Sorc, who blow through opponents with much more ease.

Thecompton73

Yes balanced

blktauna wrote: »

So you just don't like it when you arent in a duel. I get it, getting ganked while your attention is elsewhere is annoying. But I hate getting serial rooted and leaped down because CC immunity is a lie. It's just the way of things.

Sure everyone lags but NB is all extremely close timing and positioning. Both are screwed in Cyrodil now, so the stars really have to align to have things go off. I can't even get pots to go off reliably so my hat is off to people who manage to keep assassins will stacks going. I don't use it because I can't keep it going reliably.

Most NBs now dont run cloak because its so easy to be pulled out. I don't even use it now and it was my favourite NB skill. Haven't tried the other morph because why? I use vigour.

Mass hysteria is ok but you really need to build into it and I don't. I build into weapons I like more. The siphoning skills are fun in spots but everyone is running so much mitigation they really are worthless.

Most of the NB toolkit is meh, in all honesty. You really have to work vey hard to get results but if you hit it right you really get them. I have far less trouble on my DK and Sorc, who blow through opponents with much more ease.

Interesting, can you please explain to us what it means to "build into" an unblockable AOE CC with a huge wd/sd debuff? It doesn't scale off of any stats so I'm pretty confused how that would work.

blktauna

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Interesting, can you please explain to us what it means to "build into" an unblockable AOE CC with a huge wd/sd debuff? It doesn't scale off of any stats so I'm pretty confused how that would work.

If its so awesome and easy, why isn't it ubiquitous?
It's not because half the time it doesnt go off, you as caster need to be prepared for your combo/next strike, which is iffy depending on if everyone is where the game says they are. You have to hope your targets aren't mitigated from here to the sky, don't somehow detect you and dodge out of the way (which is what I see happen when this goes off)

so in essence you have to have a full line of damage queued up and timed correctly to all land at once on the off chance your target actually gets ccd and doesnt have on treaders like half the population seems to or slippery, or one of any other things that break people out. Your window is slim and with location off you might not even hit.

I got hysteriaed last night and slid out of it fairly easily, which was frankly shocking but I enjoyed the luck. I saw the approach and was already moving for the roll. I got caught but it wasn't too hard of an escape and no I don't run cloak or speed.

Cast_El

No not balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

Cast_El wrote: »

Every nightblade: "yes"
Every other classes:"no"

😆

The truth: it's not.

Exemple : 30k resist, vamp stage3, 3200crit resistance+major protection.

I got hit by 8k nightblade ultimate and got hit by 18k assassin's will at 65%of life.

This ability hit 2 times harder than ultimate ability. This is wrong

Nightblade is good to start because it's easy to play but peoples stick with it instead of learning how to play pvp with other classes.
(I am not talking about non-ganker-build)

You were hit by someone who had probably used a 500 ult balorgh. 11.5k on your resistances negated from balorgh, plus they probably had around 10k pen normally, for simplicity sake, and then another 6k debuff on your resists from night mothers which I'm certain they were using. You were left with roughly 2.5k resists give or take. Was an unfortunate situation for you, bow doesn't always hit that hard.

You probably right. Even so, balorgh proc on utlimate, and Incapacitating Strike should have it harder then.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

@blktauna Oh no. I didn't say I don't like it unless it's a duel. I said I give less credit, yes, because it wasn't one person. So the credit is divided.

But I do think it's worth mentioning that whatever meta players think they need to win duels on a NB... Because they don't have delayed burst... against other meta players who actually have a chance to see them coming... Will get used in chaotic open world cyrodiil environments. And it may just be OP in that context.

MEBengalsFan2001

No not balanced

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

If it didn't hit that hard the class would never get any kills (unless they make some kind of cheesy bash build or something.. but at that point is it even really a nightblade???). Imo the main problem with NB's right now is that they are too survivable. That big damage should come at the expense of survivability.

Problem is invisible can work right in front a player who just saw you with inner light. I popped inner light saw a NB and vanished right in front of me and I hit it immediately as they were leaving and they were literally within my LoS. I than use a detect pot and again within my LoS but vanishes again. I than hit inner again and once again within my LoS. Right now NB can basically stealth out so fast and get the out of LoS and even with LoS they can still go invisible even though I used items that state they can't for a few seconds. Game is definitely working as intended.

xDeusEJRx

Yes balanced

Cast_El wrote: »

Every nightblade: "yes"
Every other classes:"no"

😆

The truth: it's not.

Exemple : 30k resist, vamp stage3, 3200crit resistance+major protection.

I got hit by 8k nightblade ultimate and got hit by 18k assassin's will at 65%of life.

This ability hit 2 times harder than ultimate ability. This is wrong

Nightblade is good to start because it's easy to play but peoples stick with it instead of learning how to play pvp with other classes.
(I am not talking about non-ganker-build)

People make it seem like 18k+ AW hits are the normal hit values. In reality most big hits from AW comes via crit. Nightblades are notorious to build heavily into crit because they have so much crit provided to them (They have two passives that buff both critical strike rating and crit damage). That plus stacked damage buffs (like concealed weapon, essence thief, camo hunter, Death stroke) all stacked onto each other. A combination of high crit damage and high damage done modifiers results in big damage. Most 18k+ hits are via crit with high crit damage and damage done modifiers

I can easily hit more than 20k+ off a crit assassins wills but on average they usually will damage for 8k-9k noncrit which is about standard non crit damage for a burst hit. Both incap/soul harvest are also capable of hitting between 8-9k+ non crits, as well as 15k+ crits (assassin's will is capable of hitting harder because if you lined up death stroke it will provide an added 20% damage taken modifier). But to even achieve those big hits, requires a lot of prep and stacking buffs to pull off

There have been VERY rare instances where assassin's will has hit for over 10k non crit. The hardest noncrit I've ever gotten off an assassin's will is 14.6k non crit assassin's will. But that's the exception, not the norm

Normal assassin's will:


Normal Soul harvest:


Critical Soul harvest:


Critical Assassin's Will(This one is a bit unfair cause it was against a low CP):



And the thing is, you can hit just as hard as AW with dawnbreaker if you're built well enough. I've gotten 15k+ initial hit dawnbreakers on people before without even using balorgh or concealed weapon's damage bonus. Obviously with total damage ticks added up, the number would end up quite high


The point being, the only reason these numbers add up so high is because all the crit damage and modifiers Nightblade has If nightblade didn't have access to so many % stacking modifiers to boost numbers, it wouldn't go so high. If ZoS didn't give concealed weapon the 10% damage buff, we wouldn't see assassin's will numbers going so high. It's an issue with zos overtuning CW, not because Assassin's will itself is overperforming. Even despite the buffs, it requires a proper lining up of every modifier to be able to pull off big bursts. The setup for a nightblade burst is very readable, but the potential is crazy due to stacking modifiers. Personally think ZOS should change concealed once again.

Obviously I imagine someone can show bigger hits, I don't always run fully optimized or min/maxed setups 24/7, I like to play around with sets. (Obviously as I don't even use balorgh sometimes like in the final screenshot).

TL;DR: I highly disagree with the notion assassin's will is overtuned, nightblade's insane stacking modifiers is what allows them to pull that off. It's for the same reason people said "always critting surprise attack" was a bad idea. Another 10% damage modifer on top of everything NB gets is too much. Nightblade was hardly lacking in damage, most people who want CW changed wanted it to actually receive a buff to brawlers (original iteration of concealed weapon only benefitted stealth playstyle). The changes made it so CW is now a must have on your bar because of the amount of damage it provides

The thing zos need to rework are concealed weapon and reaper's mark. Reaper's mark is an ability far overlooked. The ability has a full health heal that doesn't even require you to get finishing blow and you can get 60k+ healing near keeps with it.

TechMaybeHic

I got one lended on me pretty hard tonight. Some 17k. But it was my fault as I jumped in to help someone else and missed my resist buffs either by lag or whatever, but I knew they weren't up so it was in me. I should have known that NB got some attacks in and I just made myself priority number 1.

I know the NB saw the number because they came back shortly after, took a few swipes at me, then took off and soon started testing a different target.

katorga

No not balanced

The reason Assassin's Will or any other NB damage skill is OP is the class itself.

In addition to cloak/invisibility, the class has been buffed to be:

• The fastest class with native major/minor expedition
• Have the highest % damage modifiers
• Have the highest crit rate modifiers
• Have the highest crit damage modifiers
• Have two sources of 100% crit chance
• Have a 100% heal not impacted by battle spirit
• Have two great spammables, overloaded with some of the best secondary effects in the game
• Has access to aoe major/minor cowardice

Some classes don't have even one of those. Most classes have at best 1-2 great features, but nowhere near what NB has.

blktauna

katorga wrote: »

The reason Assassin's Will or any other NB damage skill is OP is the class itself.

In addition to cloak/invisibility, the class has been buffed to be:

It amuses me how you guys fear cloak so much when it;s a very tenuous skill and extremely easy to be knocked ou of.

• The fastest class with native major/minor expedition
• Have the highest % damage modifiers
• Have the highest crit rate modifiers
• Have the highest crit damage modifiers
• Have two sources of 100% crit chance
• Have a 100% heal not impacted by battle spirit
• Have two great spammables, overloaded with some of the best secondary effects in the game
• Has access to aoe major/minor cowardice

NB needs expedition because we are a hit and run class. Mostly run. Even brawler blades don't often toe to toe with DK tanks. Although I'm sure it happens.
NBs are designed for one to 1-2 quick hits then go, hence the damage mods. And the crit. you have to pile it up to land that one hit.
What's this heal that people go on about? If you mean dark cloak, it sucks scales off max health which for most nbs is low and is expensive and then you'd have no invisibility, so maybe not that. Path of darkness sucks as you have to stay in it and its hideously expensive. So maybe not that. The strife and morphs look good on paper except they return a pittance and everyone is so mitigated now, its even more of a pittance, so prop not those. You can't mean the offering line. lol. that's just stupid. I use vigour.

Now again, my question, if these skills are so OP why aren't they everywhere?
They aren't because they fail in practice. The fears can be good if you land them but people have to have a goodly pack of targets to get any benefit. In which you'd be better off throwing the bomb. NBs build into crit/damage and do not have the health or sustain (in general). This is that trade of thing everyone forgets about. It's rock paper scissors, you should not be able to get tank, damage and recovery all at once. It is meant to be a tradeoff.

Some classes don't have even one of those. Most classes have at best 1-2 great features, but nowhere near what NB has.

Some classes have much more and loads more effectiveness on the skills they do present. Thats part of class identity.
What you bring up is what looks good on paper, but in practice doesn't live up to the look.

xDeusEJRx

Yes balanced

blktauna wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

The reason Assassin's Will or any other NB damage skill is OP is the class itself.

In addition to cloak/invisibility, the class has been buffed to be:

It amuses me how you guys fear cloak so much when it;s a very tenuous skill and extremely easy to be knocked ou of.

• The fastest class with native major/minor expedition
• Have the highest % damage modifiers
• Have the highest crit rate modifiers
• Have the highest crit damage modifiers
• Have two sources of 100% crit chance
• Have a 100% heal not impacted by battle spirit
• Have two great spammables, overloaded with some of the best secondary effects in the game
• Has access to aoe major/minor cowardice

What's this heal that people go on about? If you mean dark cloak, it sucks scales off max health which for most nbs is low and is expensive and then you'd have no invisibility, so maybe not that. Path of darkness sucks as you have to stay in it and its

Now again, my question, if these skills are so OP why aren't they everywhere?
They aren't because they fail in practice. The fears can be good if you land them but people have to have a goodly pack of targets to get any benefit. In which you'd be better off throwing the bomb. NBs build into crit/damage and do not have the health or sustain (in general). This is that trade of thing everyone forgets about. It's rock paper scissors, you should not be able to get tank, damage and recovery all at once. It is meant to be a tradeoff.

Reaper's mark, if the marked target dies from it, you get full healed and get major berserk for 10 seconds. The skill is overtuned right now as you don't even need to finishing blow the target, they just need to die while marked. I'm sure it's not widespread because not many people are aware of this fact.