Assassin's Will is balanced

HiImRex

No not balanced

React wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

As bad as react is at ESO he's pretty much on it with everything he's said in here, it's 100% all the damage modifiers and even maybe some of the passives in nb's kit not the actual skill itself.

Even in it's current form I'd rather fight against it than pre-nerf backlash, no counterplay besides purge, as well as delayed damage.

The issue with NB is insanely overloaded damage modifiers, access to a heavy amount of buffs/debuffs in solid class skills, and a way overtuned burst heal, possibly cloak having 0 penalties to being spammed as well. Assassin's will is not on the list in my opinion.

Here is where I'd start with a first round of nerfs to nightblade (PTS week 1 type deal, to be buffed/nerfed further as needed)

1) Concealed - modifier down to 5% damage done if the proc is going to remain the way it is now, or reverted back to 300WD/SD for 10 seconds (original pts value) if they made it proc the bonus on cast. Minor expedition removed. Tooltip increased to match surprise attack (+4.4%).

2) Shadowy disguise - fatigue added, just like streak or roll dodge.

3) Phantasmal - roll cost reduction capped at 30-50%.

4) Power extraction - remove the minor cowardice.

5) Death Stroke and morphs - reduce the damage modifier by 5%.

6) Healthy Offering - remove the vitality on cast. This morph heals 5% more as the morph effect (rather than granting 5% vitality for 10s). Both morphs of this skill - the DOT effect should be exponential. It already stacks, but rather than putting 3 dots on you that each tick for 100 damage per second if you press it 3 times consecutively, the first dot would tick for 100/s, the second for 200/s, the third for 300/s, etc. These would still stack, and this would encourage you not to spam the ability. Numbers are just examples, the dots hit harder than that on the live server.

These are good suggestions.

Every class should be OP in its own way, nightblade is currently good at what it's supposed to be good at, which is single-target burst. The overall kit is overtuned but it's not really that hard to bring down to a good place, React is obviously the best representative for the class we have currently and I don't think he's too biased. These are good nerfs that should take a S+ tier class and put it back down to S tier, which is fine. Every class should be between A / S tier, instead of having a couple S-tier classes and a bunch of C-tier classes like we currently have right now.

You have to realize that a game where everything is fair at all times is boring to play. At that point all that is left is to grind one possible path to victory and a lot of the creativity and adapatbility goes out the window. Nightblades also have a unique place in the ESO pvp meta to enable gankers, which honestly are needed to maintain the population the way it is. It's fine, sometimes you need to find yourself in a situation where death is inevitable.

Skara, you're new to try-hard ESO pvp, Ive seen you make the transition from solely a BG healer to a legitimate pvper in your own right. Let me give you some advice as a veteran of ESO pvp, ESO is not only about utilizing data to reach optimal decisions. There's lots of things in this game that will mess up your calculations, and there's always going to be some busted thing that ruins your perfect play. Develop a game sense that will allow you to sense things like ganks without telegraphs. A lot of times 1vXing is about prediction rather than reaction. And sometimes you're still gonna get ganked by some BS, you just have to accept it and play around it the best you can.

And the truth is, this will probably get nerfed in the future but there will be something to replace it.

Iriidius

axi wrote: »

There is one simple way to balance nb without dmg nerf. Just make it that after each assasins will usage the caster places a mark on enemy and for 10+ seconds or until enemy he marked die that nb have movement speed and healing greatly reduced both of which cannot be cleansed. The issue isnt with the damage but with the fact nightblades are completly not affaraid to engage combat with full dmg setup because they have so many survival and escape tools atm. Assasins will should be high risk high reward ability that You time out perfectly to nuke enemy but if You fail You pay the consequences not just simply walk away and build up another burst in next few seconds.

So if my 28k spectral bow kills the target i dont get debuffed but if my 7k spectral bow gets easily outhealed i get debuffed? If some players get too much dmg with a skill, you solve the problem by punishing those who dont? seems like a very effective fix and not counterproductive at all(irony)

axi

Iriidius wrote: »

axi wrote: »

There is one simple way to balance nb without dmg nerf. Just make it that after each assasins will usage the caster places a mark on enemy and for 10+ seconds or until enemy he marked die that nb have movement speed and healing greatly reduced both of which cannot be cleansed. The issue isnt with the damage but with the fact nightblades are completly not affaraid to engage combat with full dmg setup because they have so many survival and escape tools atm. Assasins will should be high risk high reward ability that You time out perfectly to nuke enemy but if You fail You pay the consequences not just simply walk away and build up another burst in next few seconds.

So if my 28k spectral bow kills the target i dont get debuffed but if my 7k spectral bow gets easily outhealed i get debuffed? If some players get too much dmg with a skill, you solve the problem by punishing those who dont? seems like a very effective fix and not counterproductive at all(irony)

You should plan Your combo better if You hit with spectral bow for only 7k. As simple as that. And it's not because "some players are getting 28k with this ability" it's because getting even 15k with it is pretty easy and nb defensive power bugdet really does not justify it anymore.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

1v1 is not a valid PVP scenario in this game

This has been said a lot over the years and it is foolish. Within a 30v30 brawl, I can move such that I turn the fight for myself into a series of 1v1s, and with 30 opponents to choose from, I can chop down weaker targets 1 by 1 helping my faction get the numbers advantage so we can zerg down the stronger targets and win the objective.

Maybe you are playing mag sorc so you probably need to break it down

Stamblade can 1v30 on its own. Why complicate stuff ?

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

The ZOS philosophy of "huge burst damage is balanced if it's heinously slow, unresponsive, and unreliable."

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit that hard in PvP

In a meta where 37k hp Wardens will eat that 27k hp bow and heal back to full in a blink? Nevermind the ball groups who aren't threatened until you can burst in the hundreds of thousands... 27k hp bow won't even move its target's HP bar.

It's like that Simpsons meme with all the deadly germs getting stuck on each other in the door.

Problem is huge burst damage applies only to only NB

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

React wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

As bad as react is at ESO he's pretty much on it with everything he's said in here, it's 100% all the damage modifiers and even maybe some of the passives in nb's kit not the actual skill itself.

Even in it's current form I'd rather fight against it than pre-nerf backlash, no counterplay besides purge, as well as delayed damage.

The issue with NB is insanely overloaded damage modifiers, access to a heavy amount of buffs/debuffs in solid class skills, and a way overtuned burst heal, possibly cloak having 0 penalties to being spammed as well. Assassin's will is not on the list in my opinion.

Here is where I'd start with a first round of nerfs to nightblade (PTS week 1 type deal, to be buffed/nerfed further as needed)

1) Concealed - modifier down to 5% damage done if the proc is going to remain the way it is now, or reverted back to 300WD/SD for 10 seconds (original pts value) if they made it proc the bonus on cast. Minor expedition removed. Tooltip increased to match surprise attack (+4.4%).

2) Shadowy disguise - fatigue added, just like streak or roll dodge.

3) Phantasmal - roll cost reduction capped at 30-50%.

4) Power extraction - remove the minor cowardice.

5) Death Stroke and morphs - reduce the damage modifier by 5%.

6) Healthy Offering - remove the vitality on cast. This morph heals 5% more as the morph effect (rather than granting 5% vitality for 10s). Both morphs of this skill - the DOT effect should be exponential. It already stacks, but rather than putting 3 dots on you that each tick for 100 damage per second if you press it 3 times consecutively, the first dot would tick for 100/s, the second for 200/s, the third for 300/s, etc. These would still stack, and this would encourage you not to spam the ability. Numbers are just examples, the dots hit harder than that on the live server.

Not sure why screaming nerf is the best way to address problems. Can’t buff other classes ?

SoulwayFilth

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Now context can be seen right. You don't get a 27k AW after a 9k Soul Tether JUST from AW. Some standard tooltip readings do show that the skill is higher than the ultimate, but that is like 3-4k. This instance is 3x the ultimate damage, not the skill AW carrying all this. That involves a great amount of modifiers to elevate AW so it can be a high damage skill after they use their so called big ultimate for a semi reliable 8m CC. Looks like you got ganked by a gank build that looks to load AW so it can actually get some kills.

Someone made a great point in the thread & is a common blight on the game. Healing is an issue across all classes + all these modifiers you can stack. I mean that 9k soul tether ultimate does jack of a dent in a 35-40k HP or heals which can clear that value & higher while being SPAMMED.

Game needs to fix the bugs & heals before looking at damage of one skill that needs charge up, has delay, can be dodged & blocked, usually used after other skills that also have a delay, can be dodged & blocked.

Looks to me that you would have had almost 0 resistances due to the build & items such as Balorgh to be hit by something like that 27k AW after 9k Soul Tether. If get hit by the same thing, I think yeah that sucks, but nice. Sacrifice needed to hit that number of other area's of build & that you needed to get your whole combo off while actually aiming it at someone in the laggy environment we have. Not just these high damage low cooldown AOE spamfest skills where you could kill someone looking at another & can't dodge.

The person using the current templar as a comparison, that is not a quantifiable comparison. Only area it is, is the fact that they nerfed the templar POL way to much. Hell, they just completely nerfed how most templars were fundamentally played with that hit & others at the same time. Much like many call's on the NB.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Maybe you are playing mag sorc so you probably need to break it down. Stamblade can 1v30 on its own.

I'm not sure what you mean. The same principle I described can apply to your 1v30 seal clubbing scenario on a variety of specs. You don't need to AoE bomb to win outnumbered, and NB is particularly good at winning a series of 1v1s. I'm also not sure what you mean by "stamblade" in this hybrid meta.

OnGodiDoDis

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit this hard in PvP. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul Corrosive heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.



Screenshot taken in Cyrodiil with 32k armor, 2209 crit resist, 6% damage reduction.

That's nothing. My bear hits harder than that. Would you say my bear is unbalanced?

AdamLAD

No not balanced

Should Crystal frags hit 27k ? Should an empowered whip hit 27k ? Some ultimates don't even hit 27k. If you are a ganker, I will accept it and even that's ridiculous. However if you are not. Completely unacceptable. Regardless if you can dodge roll or block it. I don't understand that argument. We can with every other ability? We are specifically looking at it's damage. And just in terms of that alone it's not comparable to any other skill in the game. It might not be specifically due to the skill itself but everything else buffing it needs a hard look at because hitting 27k on a skill is completely unacceptable on a non ganking build.

Nevidyra

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit this hard in PvP. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul Corrosive heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.



Screenshot taken in Cyrodiil with 32k armor, 2209 crit resist, 6% damage reduction.

That's nothing. My bear hits harder than that. Would you say my bear is unbalanced?

Your bear is an execute with execute scaling whereas Bow is not an execute. Try to not compare apples to oranges.

Good Nightblades like React run 3x Bloodthirsty trait. Bow pretty much is an execute for them.

StaticWave

No not balanced

It's balanced but I hate NBs so I'm going with not balanced

SkaraMinoc

No not balanced

taugrim wrote: »

Does your APM include the fact that you are hitting Bash 3 times per second? 🤣🤣🤣

Okay you got me

I am not professional SC2 ascended gamer APM without bash contributing to that number.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

Why stop at nerfing spectral bow? Why stop at blanket nerfing damage? Remove player deaths from PvP altogether. Now your egos are safe, and you don't have to worry about dying IRL because your video game avatar died. Fights will be decided by sitting in a circle and seeing who can pump their resto staff up and down the most times.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Why stop at nerfing spectral bow? Why stop at blanket nerfing damage? Remove player deaths from PvP altogether. Now your egos are safe, and you don't have to worry about dying IRL because your video game avatar died. Fights will be decided by sitting in a circle and seeing who can pump their resto staff up and down the most times.

Game design in eso revolves around nightblade.

No reason to worry about nb nerfs. Never gonna happen

liziqi

Yes balanced

Assassin's Will is balanced. If you want to nerf damage, nerf the tanky aspect of the meta first.
Cloak does not need to be further nerfed. It is signature skill of nightblade and already has lots of way to counter it.

I would suggest the balance decisions to be based off of data and experience of mid-tier players rather than a few very vocal elite PvPers.

My own data from kc suggests nightblade is NOT the strongest class right now in PvP. A certain build which makes Bruiser blade strong in dueling, like @React build, is only strong because of the tankiness of this meta. When you combine sets like rallying cry + vigor + ice staves + burst heals, you can face tank a full corrossive dk, with ANY class.

Traditional Nbs style with cloaking in and out + squishy build absolutely need the damage staying same where it is, before any nerf to tankiness in general. Also some 1vX'ers and elite PvPers should stop advocating for nerf to cloak. I understand it can be frustrating when you are dueling someone and 1vX and getting ganked. But please stop trying to make the game less fun. Nbs has the most population in PvP, not because it's strongest, but because it is fun to play. Any nerf to signature class utility like cloak, you risk losing more population in PvP.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

liziqi wrote: »

My own data from kc suggests nightblade is NOT the strongest class right now in PvP... When you combine sets like rallying cry + vigor + ice staves + burst heals, you can face tank a full corrossive dk, with ANY class.

I'm inclined to agree. The tank meta brings extremely strong generic defensive tools that remove NB's intended weak points, that's what's "overpowered" not their damage. Just curious, what does your data say is the top class?

BazOfWar

Yes balanced

As someone else posted, try playing a NB and staying alive while trying to build the stacks. Then even when the stacks have built up its 50/50 whether or not it fires properly or even hits its target.

There is a lot more to complain about in this stale tank meta than NB's which takes a lot more skill staying alive than most other classes.

taugrim

Yes balanced

liziqi wrote: »

Assassin's Will is balanced. If you want to nerf damage, nerf the tanky aspect of the meta first.
Cloak does not need to be further nerfed. It is signature skill of nightblade and already has lots of way to counter it.

Agreed, Cloak is fine.

liziqi wrote: »

I would suggest the balance decisions to be based off of data and experience of mid-tier players rather than a few very vocal elite PvPers.

I've never thought of it this way, but that's a good way to look at it.

If something is imbalanced / overpowered, it will become clear because lots of players are having success with it. E.g. take, for example:
- pre-nerf Living Dark, i.e. when it scaled with offensive stats
- Mara's Balm before the 3 nerfs

liziqi wrote: »

My own data from kc suggests nightblade is NOT the strongest class right now in PvP.

KC = Kill Counter?

BTW, you're one of the most dangerous NBs I see in BGs. Good to see you on the forums.

Caribou77

No not balanced

This poll does clearly reveal how many NBs sweatily gank the forums.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

Caribou77 wrote: »

This poll does clearly reveal how many NBs sweatily gank the forums.

And how many players know how to kill those NBs.

I can understand why inexperienced or non-competitive players find NBs unfun or unfair. This game never really could decide how competitive it wanted its players to be. If casual players see elites as untouchable, they quit.

Caribou77

No not balanced

Hm. Personally, I pop a detect pot and kill them, if theyre bothersome. Mostly just pesky opportunists who wait until I’m brawling some other opponent and my health drops low enough for them to try a gank. Mostly, but not all. Some stamblades are very skilled and dangerous these days.

rbfrgsp

No not balanced

Not balanced. Needs a slight buff.

Should be a stam morph that is melee range and has zero travel time and not dodgeable. Mag morph should be ranged and have a travel time.

That would balance the five charges required to launch (7-8 in reality in lagodiil).

OnGodiDoDis

Dekrypted wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit this hard in PvP. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul Corrosive heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.



Screenshot taken in Cyrodiil with 32k armor, 2209 crit resist, 6% damage reduction.

That's nothing. My bear hits harder than that. Would you say my bear is unbalanced?

Your bear is an execute with execute scaling whereas Bow is not an execute. Try to not compare apples to oranges.

I thought we were comparing damage numbers? What's wrong with the comparison?

OnGodiDoDis

AdamLAD wrote: »

Should Crystal frags hit 27k ? Should an empowered whip hit 27k ? Some ultimates don't even hit 27k. If you are a ganker, I will accept it and even that's ridiculous. However if you are not. Completely unacceptable. Regardless if you can dodge roll or block it. I don't understand that argument. We can with every other ability? We are specifically looking at it's damage. And just in terms of that alone it's not comparable to any other skill in the game. It might not be specifically due to the skill itself but everything else buffing it needs a hard look at because hitting 27k on a skill is completely unacceptable on a non ganking build.

The reason it hits hard is because it's a reward skill. Keeping 5 stacks in combat is almost impossible to do. That is why the warden bear has a 150% scaling on targets below 25% and not 100% or 50%; because if you manage to hit someone under 25% HP, it's a guaranteed kill. Otherwise, the damage is...bearable. You have to combo the bow. Nobody is going to die with the bow alone.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

The reason it hits hard is because it's a reward skill. Keeping 5 stacks in combat is almost impossible to do. That is why the warden bear has a 150% scaling on targets below 25% and not 100% or 50%; because if you manage to hit someone under 25% HP, it's a guaranteed kill. Otherwise, the damage is...bearable. You have to combo the bow. Nobody is going to die with the bow alone.

Not to mention, the combo itself is rather difficult to pull off and more situations than not the bow is going to miss. As others have said, the bows tooltip alone without any other modifiers is not that significant, it will not hit that hard.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

This poll does clearly reveal how many NBs sweatily gank the forums.

And how many players know how to kill those NBs.

I can understand why inexperienced or non-competitive players find NBs unfun or unfair. This game never really could decide how competitive it wanted its players to be. If casual players see elites as untouchable, they quit.

I am inexperienced and non-competitive. But when i play NB i become an elite untouchable.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I am inexperienced and non-competitive. But when i play NB i become an elite untouchable.

Okay that gave me a laugh. NB has a low floor and high ceiling, which makes for a very uneven experience.

Iriidius

axi wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

axi wrote: »

There is one simple way to balance nb without dmg nerf. Just make it that after each assasins will usage the caster places a mark on enemy and for 10+ seconds or until enemy he marked die that nb have movement speed and healing greatly reduced both of which cannot be cleansed. The issue isnt with the damage but with the fact nightblades are completly not affaraid to engage combat with full dmg setup because they have so many survival and escape tools atm. Assasins will should be high risk high reward ability that You time out perfectly to nuke enemy but if You fail You pay the consequences not just simply walk away and build up another burst in next few seconds.

So if my 28k spectral bow kills the target i dont get debuffed but if my 7k spectral bow gets easily outhealed i get debuffed? If some players get too much dmg with a skill, you solve the problem by punishing those who dont? seems like a very effective fix and not counterproductive at all(irony)

You should plan Your combo better if You hit with spectral bow for only 7k. As simple as that. And it's not because "some players are getting 28k with this ability" it's because getting even 15k with it is pretty easy and nb defensive power bugdet really does not justify it anymore.

That doesnt change the fact that your debuff only punishes the nightblade if nb doesnt kill the target, not if the combo with 15k+ spectral bow deletes the target faster than it can react.
And players really think it is fair if you die because you get hit by a single „easy counterable“ burstskill when other players eat whole spammable-burst ulti-burstskill-execute combos or 10 corrosive whips without using defense or getting low and just keep trading blows?
Sure high dmg skills like 28k spectral bows also hurt 40k hp tanks and make them a bit less tanky, but they oneshot squishy 27k hp players making this playstile even less viable. And you think incap and spectral bow from cloak are easy counterable because they have a sound that sometimes is hearable and a cast time of 0.4 seconds, which you have to reduce by 2*0.1seconds ping, when the average human reaction time is 0.25seconds? And maybe you are stunned when you get hit and have to break free we all know how reliable break free is. I also remember situations where i dodged as soon as i saw other player using onslaught and got hit by onslaugh, dizzy and execute at the same time in the middle of the dodge roll and immediately died althought the combo should take 1,5 seconds at least. Because of lag there is much less counterplay than it should.

Kory

Yes balanced

Unless this ability is made to proc faster, making it more on demand, and easier to land, it has every right to hit a certain target that hard.