Assassin's Will is balanced

AinSoph

No not balanced

I actually meant to say YES BALANCED.

So far, the only proof is a death recap. We don't know what de/buffs both you and the other player(s) had as well as their gear setups and so far all the no not balanced voters have only refuted based on personal feelings rather than actual numbers like React provides. This is also reinforced by the OP not knowing about guard debuffs and hearing the sfx on death which is a usual cyro problem. The context matters GREATLY as it is literally impossible to know all the factors unless you actually talk to your opponent.

StaticWave

No not balanced

NB's offensive kit is fine. Its defense needs some readjustment though. The class used to rely on stealth (Cloak) and slipperiness (Shadow Image) to survive. The trade-off made the class balanced. Elite players could make it look extremely lethal, and casual players could still enjoy the stealthy playstyle if they aren't confident in their mechanical skills.

However, the recent buffs (Phantasmal Escape and Healthy Offering) have increased a NB's survivability over the top. Not only do they still have access to Cloak and Shadow Image, but they now have a fat burst heal as potent as HoTD and Major Evasion + 100% dodge roll cost reduction (equivalent to wearing 16 pieces of Well-Fitted trait on top of their existing gear). Basically, if a NB wanted to survive this patch, nobody could really kill it. That's the issue ZOS needs to address because I can't see why a class that's built around a squishy/stealthy playstyle also happens to be one of the tankiest classes in the game...

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

increased a NB's survivability over the top

Take notice, nerf herders. This is the problem competitive players identify regarding NB over and over, not damage.

MEBengalsFan2001

No not balanced

Everything is OP and needs to be nerfed so all skills hit like a wet noodle.

Thecompton73

Yes balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

NB's offensive kit is fine. Its defense needs some readjustment though. The class used to rely on stealth (Cloak) and slipperiness (Shadow Image) to survive. The trade-off made the class balanced. Elite players could make it look extremely lethal, and casual players could still enjoy the stealthy playstyle if they aren't confident in their mechanical skills.

However, the recent buffs (Phantasmal Escape and Healthy Offering) have increased a NB's survivability over the top. Not only do they still have access to Cloak and Shadow Image, but they now have a fat burst heal as potent as HoTD and Major Evasion + 100% dodge roll cost reduction (equivalent to wearing 16 pieces of Well-Fitted trait on top of their existing gear). Basically, if a NB wanted to survive this patch, nobody could really kill it. That's the issue ZOS needs to address because I can't see why a class that's built around a squishy/stealthy playstyle also happens to be one of the tankiest classes in the game...

This is a bit off topic but I've seen other people also comment on Phantasmal. The way that skill is presented here is pretty disingenuous in that it's made to seem as if you have 100% reduction on roll dodge without any downtime like you would by getting a reduction from gear. However the fact that you have to get hit with 10 direct damage attacks to get that much reduction balances the skill pretty well. At most you'd get a free roll every five seconds if someone is LA weaving DD skills perfectly. And those attacks are either hitting you for damage or being blocked and using as much, or more, stam as a roll dodge would take anyway.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

.

StaticWave wrote: »

NB's offensive kit is fine. Its defense needs some readjustment though. The class used to rely on stealth (Cloak) and slipperiness (Shadow Image) to survive. The trade-off made the class balanced. Elite players could make it look extremely lethal, and casual players could still enjoy the stealthy playstyle if they aren't confident in their mechanical skills.

However, the recent buffs (Phantasmal Escape and Healthy Offering) have increased a NB's survivability over the top. Not only do they still have access to Cloak and Shadow Image, but they now have a fat burst heal as potent as HoTD and Major Evasion + 100% dodge roll cost reduction (equivalent to wearing 16 pieces of Well-Fitted trait on top of their existing gear). Basically, if a NB wanted to survive this patch, nobody could really kill it. That's the issue ZOS needs to address because I can't see why a class that's built around a squishy/stealthy playstyle also happens to be one of the tankiest classes in the game...

It's both really, their survivability is the larger issue with how the class is supposed to function, but concealed having a unique 10% damage buff on top of all the other damage modifiers is definitely too much as well. Completely not needed, you literally accidentally kill people on nightblade atm, it's overperforming on both fronts.

AndreNoir

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

concealed having a unique 10% damage buff on top of all the other damage modifiers is definitely too much as well.

Gosh, stop that fairytales. Magbalde is suck still and it was suck before. The whole Cyro's nightblade population is stam and it already was like this, and no - they don't even care about concealed, because you know... it's far more comfortable spam surprise with guaranteed crit (on top of minor breach), use PE with double buff AND debuff (can we even compare that to sap ?), also execute got scaling from 50% yet the range morph got a mockery 'buff'. And on top of that stam got minor protect from Vigor

TechMaybeHic

AndreNoir wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

concealed having a unique 10% damage buff on top of all the other damage modifiers is definitely too much as well.

Gosh, stop that fairytales. Magbalde is suck still and it was suck before. The whole Cyro's nightblade population is stam and it already was like this, and no - they don't even care about concealed, because you know... it's far more comfortable spam surprise with guaranteed crit (on top of minor breach), use PE with double buff AND debuff (can we even compare that to sap ?), also execute got scaling from 50% yet the range morph got a mockery 'buff'. And on top of that stam got minor protect from Vigor

Lol yes. I'm seeing twisting path marks all over the place for surprise attack *eyeroll*

I'm not on board with the blanket nerfs of the bow proc, but the only thing more comical are the players that still think their NB sucks.

Caribou77

No not balanced

Not an NB here (gank and fade just doesn't appeal), but I've fought against a wide variety of them, mostly in BGs the past couple of years, and forgive me for stating the obvious, but STAM NBs seem to be pretty powerful right now. They can dish out very high damage and are still quite tanky (on good players/builds). MAG NB remains fairly weak, and has been for quite awhile. Kind of like the dynamic between STAM wardens and MAG wardens, or STAM sorcs and MAG sorcs. At least for these 3 classes, stamina seems significantly stronger because of the full kit of stamina abilities that are strong in PVP (resolving vigor got minor resolve ADDED, because it was UNDERpeforming??) and 2handed/dizzy/execute, dual whirling, etc etc. YET can still cherry pick a powerful magicka ability if they want to.

Kind of off topic, but I thought it might clarify some of the disparity between people who think NB is weak vs strong. Stam NB does not currently suck, in my experience/opinion. Good players are pretty deadly on this class.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I am inexperienced and non-competitive. But when i play NB i become an elite untouchable.

Okay that gave me a laugh. NB has a low floor and high ceiling, which makes for a very uneven experience.

I m not sure what a high ceiling is when one skill does 25-30 k damage on a 1vx open world.

Not that there is a high ceiling for any class in the game right now but nb is definitely the easiest to 1vx for me personally.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I m not sure what a high ceiling is when one skill does 25-30 k damage on a 1vx open world.

Not that there is a high ceiling for any class in the game right now but nb is definitely the easiest to 1vx for me personally.

AW doesn't consistently hit that high. If you're getting hit that high I would suggest looking at your build. The only people getting hit for that are people that are already squishy. If people started to run more crit resist the numbers would start to go way down.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

I m not sure what a high ceiling is when one skill does 25-30 k damage on a 1vx open world.

Not that there is a high ceiling for any class in the game right now but nb is definitely the easiest to 1vx for me personally.

AW doesn't consistently hit that high. If you're getting hit that high I would suggest looking at your build. The only people getting hit for that are people that are already squishy. If people started to run more crit resist the numbers would start to go way down.

So no 30k hits ? Still, I don't see a problem when you time it with incap. Is it hard to time 2 skills ? It doesn't hit then you reset fight with cloak + shade and rinse repeat.

Let's assume timing 2 skills is super hard. You can still use the barrage of buffs NB gets and play a pure bow blade from miles away and still get the same results.

NB has the best defence, offence and mobility in the game. I am not sure if NB mains are even aware about battle spirit exceptions which NB gets nor do they know what their class is actually capable of.

If NB class toolkit is used correctly you can be invincible in open world PVP !

baselesschart

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

So no 30k hits ? Still, I don't see a problem when you time it with incap. Is it hard to time 2 skills ? It doesn't hit then you reset fight with cloak + shade and rinse repeat.

Let's assume timing 2 skills is super hard. You can still use the barrage of buffs NB gets and play a pure bow blade from miles away and still get the same results.

NB has the best defence, offence and mobility in the game. I am not sure if NB mains are even aware about battle spirit exceptions which NB gets nor do they know what their class is actually capable of.

Ok I am gonna say it if nobody else does, If NB class toolkit is used correctly you can easily go without deaths in open world PVP !

Nightblade burst combo is fairly difficult to land. With its audio cues and overall predictability, most people know how to avoid it. If you've watched nightblade gameplay clips on youtube, they are combing through hours of fights to find those few situations where assassin's will might've crit for that high. Yes you can disengage and reset the fight, but you can't spam your burst combo. Most of the time on fairly tanky targets you need to have a high balorgh proc to take them down and if they just block your combo you have to reset.

I would argue the assassin class should have the best offensive kit in the game. It only has superb mobility if the user has mastered shade, which again is a difficult thing to do. It is not an easy skill to use when you are outnumbered. As far as healing, they could cut healthy offering for a decent chunk while keeping the minor mending and it would be a balanced skill.

And you are right I could stay alive indefinitely if I stayed in cloak all the time only picking off outliers, but thats no fun. If i'm solo outnumbered, there are gonna be some situations where no toolkit is going to save me, which is good no one should be able to survive a 30 man group.

Jabbs_Giggity

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Many scenarios exist where you can't block, dodge, or even notice the telegraph. Regardless of your skill level.

So the answer is to nerf a perfectly fine skill? No. My NB has a 23K tooltip, fully buffed. I would still be lucky to hit, let alone hit for 10K in PVP (Not on a crit build)

People got PotL nerfed with this way of thinking...Now it, being the only Templar burst damage, is completely useless in PVP.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

So no 30k hits ? Still, I don't see a problem when you time it with incap. Is it hard to time 2 skills ? It doesn't hit then you reset fight with cloak + shade and rinse repeat.

Let's assume timing 2 skills is super hard. You can still use the barrage of buffs NB gets and play a pure bow blade from miles away and still get the same results.

NB has the best defence, offence and mobility in the game. I am not sure if NB mains are even aware about battle spirit exceptions which NB gets nor do they know what their class is actually capable of.

Ok I am gonna say it if nobody else does, If NB class toolkit is used correctly you can easily go without deaths in open world PVP !

Nightblade burst combo is fairly difficult to land. With its audio cues and overall predictability, most people know how to avoid it. If you've watched nightblade gameplay clips on youtube, they are combing through hours of fights to find those few situations where assassin's will might've crit for that high. Yes you can disengage and reset the fight, but you can't spam your burst combo. Most of the time on fairly tanky targets you need to have a high balorgh proc to take them down and if they just block your combo you have to reset.

I would argue the assassin class should have the best offensive kit in the game. It only has superb mobility if the user has mastered shade, which again is a difficult thing to do. It is not an easy skill to use when you are outnumbered. As far as healing, they could cut healthy offering for a decent chunk while keeping the minor mending and it would be a balanced skill.

And you are right I could stay alive indefinitely if I stayed in cloak all the time only picking off outliers, but thats no fun. If i'm solo outnumbered, there are gonna be some situations where no toolkit is going to save me, which is good no one should be able to survive a 30 man group.

I am not advocating nerfs. Class is strong and fun. There is no point playing a weak class like mag sorc for instance. But let's not kid ourselves that the class isn't the best PVP class in the game

If a solo player is better than the 30 man group why is it a problem if the solo player survives ? IMHO players run in a large group coz they probably can't survive without their group. I realize its not possible today coz the game's ceiling getting lower

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

I often feel too much focus is given to what we see in our recaps. Can't blame anybody for that, of course these things are a logical starting point for balance discussions.

Many of the things said here about why Merciless should not be nerfed apply equally to Corrosive. You could switch Merciless / NB and Corrosive / DK in many of these sentences and they'd still check out. The basic gist - classic, traditional, strong, class-defining offensive skills. The absolute last things which should be nerfed.

DK and NB are top of the pack - no doubt. Warden might be that target "A Tier" class right now from my read of things. But none of the 3 need any direct nerfs to their damage output, none. DK and NB are probably stronger than Warden, but not by that much.

Templar, Necro, and Sorc all need specific buffs to specific things. In my opinion this chart is elucidatory:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618634/class-access-to-named-buffs-debuffs

Because many things on that chart have changed a bunch over the years (also through Hybridization quite a bit, think of StamDen and Major Breach - had it, lost it, got it back) and ease of access to Named Buffs is an obviously straightforward method of balance - because they're all shared, they're all available to everyone one way or another, and none of them are really class defining. In other words, they don't really define or characterize a "Power Fantasy" in the way skills like Merciless and Corrosive do.

So that's my read, every class has to have some OP things that just don't change much at all, and for NB that's Merciless.

Balance shouldn't mean the same shade of grey, but rather equally vibrant secondary colors.

StaticWave

No not balanced

And to demonstrate my point,

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

NB's offensive kit is fine. Its defense needs some readjustment though. The class used to rely on stealth (Cloak) and slipperiness (Shadow Image) to survive. The trade-off made the class balanced. Elite players could make it look extremely lethal, and casual players could still enjoy the stealthy playstyle if they aren't confident in their mechanical skills.

However, the recent buffs (Phantasmal Escape and Healthy Offering) have increased a NB's survivability over the top. Not only do they still have access to Cloak and Shadow Image, but they now have a fat burst heal as potent as HoTD and Major Evasion + 100% dodge roll cost reduction (equivalent to wearing 16 pieces of Well-Fitted trait on top of their existing gear). Basically, if a NB wanted to survive this patch, nobody could really kill it. That's the issue ZOS needs to address because I can't see why a class that's built around a squishy/stealthy playstyle also happens to be one of the tankiest classes in the game...

This is a bit off topic but I've seen other people also comment on Phantasmal. The way that skill is presented here is pretty disingenuous in that it's made to seem as if you have 100% reduction on roll dodge without any downtime like you would by getting a reduction from gear. However the fact that you have to get hit with 10 direct damage attacks to get that much reduction balances the skill pretty well. At most you'd get a free roll every five seconds if someone is LA weaving DD skills perfectly. And those attacks are either hitting you for damage or being blocked and using as much, or more, stam as a roll dodge would take anyway.

But the thing is Phantasmal Escape procs everytime you take direct damage. You could take negligible damage from 10 light attacks and you would have 100% dodge cost reduction after 5 seconds. It's incredibly easy to get this ability to full stacks. Players who used sets like Warrior's Fury will be too used to soaking up damage and would have an incredible advantage slotting Phantasmal Escape. Furthermore, a NB will have no problem soaking up damage this patch due to their increased survivability.

StaticWave

No not balanced

MetallicMonk wrote: »

.

StaticWave wrote: »

NB's offensive kit is fine. Its defense needs some readjustment though. The class used to rely on stealth (Cloak) and slipperiness (Shadow Image) to survive. The trade-off made the class balanced. Elite players could make it look extremely lethal, and casual players could still enjoy the stealthy playstyle if they aren't confident in their mechanical skills.

However, the recent buffs (Phantasmal Escape and Healthy Offering) have increased a NB's survivability over the top. Not only do they still have access to Cloak and Shadow Image, but they now have a fat burst heal as potent as HoTD and Major Evasion + 100% dodge roll cost reduction (equivalent to wearing 16 pieces of Well-Fitted trait on top of their existing gear). Basically, if a NB wanted to survive this patch, nobody could really kill it. That's the issue ZOS needs to address because I can't see why a class that's built around a squishy/stealthy playstyle also happens to be one of the tankiest classes in the game...

It's both really, their survivability is the larger issue with how the class is supposed to function, but concealed having a unique 10% damage buff on top of all the other damage modifiers is definitely too much as well. Completely not needed, you literally accidentally kill people on nightblade atm, it's overperforming on both fronts.

I think that's only 1 offensive ability that might need an adjustment. Their overall offensive kit remains the same though.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

I think that's only 1 offensive ability that might need an adjustment.

I'd agree that if any NB damage deserves a nerf, it's the 10% dmg buff on Concealed, not the bow.

StaticWave

No not balanced

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I think that's only 1 offensive ability that might need an adjustment.

I'd agree that if any NB damage deserves a nerf, it's the 10% dmg buff on Concealed, not the bow.

Their offense hasn't changed in 5 years. Sure there were some tweaks to damage numbers but the actual combo remains unchanged. Players who have experience dealing with NBs shouldn't have any issues countering their combo. Although if the damage is amplified too much by modifiers, then it will be a problem (which can easily be fixed by removing said modifiers).

Basically, tweaking some numbers to reduce their damage output and survivability is the most plausible option to keep build diversity and balance this class.

MEBengalsFan2001

No not balanced

Problem with this game is its balancing issues across the board and how it is managed. Game needs a reset from the ground up to get proper balancing done.

Lately I've seen a big uptick in Grim Focus usage since update 36 hit consoles. Something tells me that a combination of effects from passives, skills, ultimate gear sets is why Assassin Will is hitting as hard as it is.

The logic being used to state it can be dodge is true to an extent even in 1v1 matches a slight delay in response by the player or between device to the system or system input to the server all results in death or high damage being taken, even when blocking. When in a none 1v1 setup you are pretty much dead if you are target and the skill hits you. I know I see it a lot lately in my death recap.

Right now going against a MagDen, DK or NB is a pain because they all do high damage, have great CC to apply to you and have great tools for defensive play. These are the same things that made Templars great and yet Templars damage and CC effects were reduced to the point where many players have moved onto other classes.

Game needs an overhaul from the ground up to balance out the game. I rather the devs spend their time doing this than creating new content in 2023.

katorga

No not balanced

The class is way overbuffed this patch. It is ridiculous how much they have stuffed into the class at this point.

It was almost a meme on the PTS forums for last few patches that the former NB dev is buffing his own class.

Once the ice warden novelty wears off, NB is the only class to play.

Just a short NB hit list:

• Access to up to 50% damage buff, major/minor berserk, minor vulnerability, PLUS unique 10% and 20% damage buffs
• A complete heal, not subject to battle spirit.
• TWO sources of 100% crit chance.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Lately I've seen a big uptick in Grim Focus usage since update 36 hit consoles. Something tells me that a combination of effects from passives, skills, ultimate gear sets is why Assassin Will is hitting as hard as it is.

The logic being used to state it can be dodge is true to an extent even in 1v1 matches a slight delay in response by the player or between device to the system or system input to the server all results in death or high damage being taken, even when blocking. When in a none 1v1 setup you are pretty much dead if you are target and the skill hits you. I know I see it a lot lately in my death recap.

Right now going against a MagDen, DK or NB is a pain because they all do high damage, have great CC to apply to you and have great tools for defensive play. These are the same things that made Templars great and yet Templars damage and CC effects were reduced to the point where many players have moved onto other classes.

Game needs an overhaul from the ground up to balance out the game. I rather the devs spend their time doing this than creating new content in 2023.

While I agree that rebalancing from the ground up is much needed, the reason that it hits so hard results from a multitude of factors that are out of the bounds of nightblade entirely. Nightblades are pushing more crit damage in a meta where impen is not widely run like it used to be, therefore the result is that crits will hit much harder. While I am inclined to agree that the 10% buff bonus given to concealed was unnecessary, bow has been hitting tooltips like this for years now.

And yes thats kinda how nightblade burst is oriented, if you don't try to dodge it or block it and it hits you, it is supposed to kill you. Thats why its so easy to predict.

katorga

No not balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

And yes thats kinda how nightblade burst is oriented, if you don't try to dodge it or block it and it hits you, it is supposed to kill you. Thats why its so easy to predict.

Easy to predict in a duel or one on one. Impossible to predict when a NB is sitting on the edge of a large open world battle one shotting players who are paying attention to the other players actively in their face.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

katorga wrote: »

Easy to predict in a duel or one on one. Impossible to predict when a NB is sitting on the edge of a large open world battle one shotting players who are paying attention to the other players actively in their face.

Everything is exponentially harder to predict when you're outnumbered. If everything was balanced around how it performs against someone who is outnumbered we'd have a lot of skills that are deemed "OP"

katorga

No not balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Easy to predict in a duel or one on one. Impossible to predict when a NB is sitting on the edge of a large open world battle one shotting players who are paying attention to the other players actively in their face.

Everything is exponentially harder to predict when you're outnumbered. If everything was balanced around how it performs against someone who is outnumbered we'd have a lot of skills that are deemed "OP"

Ahh, but the post b4 mine was using predictable and telegraphed to justify why the damage levels were just fine.

That said, one shot heavy attack builds were even more predictable, telegraphed and slow, yet it was still enough for ZOS to not only completely nerf heavy attack sets, empower in PVP, but also radically change the entire mechanics for light/heavy attacks across the entire game.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

katorga wrote: »

Ahh, but the post b4 mine was using predictable and telegraphed to justify why the damage levels were just fine.

That said, one shot heavy attack builds were even more predictable, telegraphed and slow, yet it was still enough for ZOS to not only completely nerf heavy attack sets, empower in PVP, but also radically change the entire mechanics for light/heavy attacks across the entire game.

The damage levels of the ability itself are fine. Doesn't mean that the modifiers buffing it can't be looked at, but the ability itself is balanced. I haven't seen any instance that suggests otherwise. If someone is hit for 20k+ on a bow, they need to look past the mentality "it needs to be nerfed". Its usually a build issue or they were debuffed by something else.

Heavy attack builds weren't predictable from stealth. It's a relatively boring playstyle and one that discourages skillful gameplay and I'm glad it was nerfed. As far as the changes to light/heavy attacks, that was done with the intent of lowering the ceiling and making it easier for new players to do well, but obviously as everyone could see and predict, that was not the result.

TechMaybeHic

When you hear it coming just blo...

Oh. Nevermind

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Easy to predict in a duel or one on one. Impossible to predict when a NB is sitting on the edge of a large open world battle one shotting players who are paying attention to the other players actively in their face.

Everything is exponentially harder to predict when you're outnumbered. If everything was balanced around how it performs against someone who is outnumbered we'd have a lot of skills that are deemed "OP"

By that logic, If cfrag from a random pug hits for a 20k you should not have a problem with that right ?

Oh wait nb has cloak so you can counter that as well.

But I m sure you will not be ok with that on other classes.

Problem here not the damage but lack of counterplay for other classes. If only my mag sorc had old BOL I would not mind how hard this skill hits

baselesschart

Yes balanced

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

By that logic, If cfrag from a random pug hits for a 20k you should not have a problem with that right ?

Oh wait nb has cloak so you can counter that as well.

But I m sure you will not be ok with that on other classes.

Problem here not the damage but lack of counterplay for other classes. If only my mag sorc had old BOL I would not mind how hard this skill hits

If I somehow got hit for 20k by crystal frags I would add more tankiness to my build. Not that some zergling would even have any chance of hitting that, which is also another point of discussion, a lot of the deadly nightblade players are veteran players that have been playing the class for a long time. A mediocre nightblade will still go down really quickly and won't execute a burst combo as well.

If the damage isn't the problem and its lack of counterplay from other classes, that would suggest that zos should focus on buffing other classes. Because fundamentally the ability has not changed.