Assassin's Will is balanced

SkaraMinoc

No ability should hit this hard in PvP. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul Corrosive heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.



Screenshot taken in Cyrodiil with 32k armor, 2209 crit resist, 6% damage reduction.

blktauna

TBH I am never able to keep stacks long enough in pvp to get the thing to fire so mad props to those who do. It falls off so rapidly I jus don't bother with the skill.

React

Yes balanced

Edit: Here is the context that was missing, provided by the OP. OP was in a 1v1 with a warden, and had major + minor breach on him (-9k resists) and minor brittle (+10% crit damage taken), when this nightblade ganked him from stealth. He also states there was possibly a guard there, which means it is likely he had the guard puncture debuff - which is a 20-30% damage taken debuff.

Context is important. This person could have a 100-130% crit damage modifier, 30k+ pen, 6.5-7.5k WD (especially if using balorgh), and over 40% in flat skill/status sourced damage modifiers. In this case they'd be fully penning you, and their crits would still be dealing 80-100% more than the TT damage. These are all stats that you can realistically reach on a 1vX build with no outside buffs.

The skill is a slow moving projectile that requires 5 light attacks to proc, is blockable and dodgeable, has two distinct audio queues (one when it procs after 5 light attacks, another when it is fired), and has a 500ms minimum travel time, meaning at point blank you ALWAYS have sufficient time to break free of a stun and block or dodge it (with the exception of a well timed OB stun).

The other thing about AW is that it hasn't had it's damage changed in an extremely long time. The reason that people are seeing bigger numbers from it now (and subsequently, complaining) is because of the concealed weapon 10% damage modifier.

Concealed and several other parts of the nightblade kit could use adjustments - assassin's will is fine.

SkaraMinoc

No not balanced

Many scenarios exist where you can't block, dodge, or even notice the telegraph. Regardless of your skill level.

xylena_lazarow

Yes balanced

The ZOS philosophy of "huge burst damage is balanced if it's heinously slow, unresponsive, and unreliable."

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit that hard in PvP

In a meta where 37k hp Wardens will eat that 27k hp bow and heal back to full in a blink? Nevermind the ball groups who aren't threatened until you can burst in the hundreds of thousands... 27k hp bow won't even move its target's HP bar.

It's like that Simpsons meme with all the deadly germs getting stuck on each other in the door.

React

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit that hard in PvP, even if the target has zero resist. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.

Also, many scenarios exist where you can't block, dodge, or even notice the telegraph. Regardless of your skill level.

As far as a 1v1 goes, a nightblade can only guarantee an unblocked assassin's will by comboing an off balance CC into it. The minimum travel time ensures that you have sufficient time to break free and dodge roll or block it, in cases where you're stunned first. It quite literally has more counterplay than almost any other ability in the game.

If the "other scenarios" you're referencing are lag, that isn't something that can/should be balanced around.

A 30k oakensoul inferno heavy from a guy 40 meters away in stealth isn't even close to the same thing as a 27.8k bow proc.

First off, the heavy attack was hitting you without applying any debuffs to you first. It cost no resources, had no prerequisite conditions for use, and was often invisible + had no audio queue. Additionally if it missed, they could simply try again. They literally would press corrosive, then hold down left click until you died.

That 27.8k bow you took was fully counterable. You first got hit by a blockable & dodgeable ult with cast time(incap), and then failed to block or dodge the will within the next 5 seconds. I'm not trying to be toxic - but this was an issue of failing to counterplay.

Sluggy

@React Personally, I was always of the opinion that lag absolutely should be accounted for when designing the game. I'm pretty sure in fact this is why we have a 1 second GCD between skills in the first place (as well as to mitigate the amount of network traffic).

But regardless of my opinion I think you are stating the much more important facts. Namely that numbers are insane. As Fengrush put it over a year ago - 'The stats are so juiced'. People can casually walk around with stats that would have made an emperor from three years ago blush in embarrassment. And it mostly has to do with all the free stuff they gave players. 1k spell and weapon damage. 1350 crit resist, 4k max mag and stam. Boosted regen. And don't forget that hidden damage reduction. What was it: five percent? Eight percent? I can't even remember. 5k health (in pve only but still...)

I think a lot of problems stem from this. Remember this all happened right after they changed proc sets to scale with stats. So maybe do away with all this free stuff (yes, including the 5k hp in pvp zones) and maybe the pace of things would return to normality. There seems to be this opinion of many that TTK is way too long. That's absolutely not the case. Last I played it was insanely short. Usually between two to three seconds. BUT the ability to reset a fight was always present. What they really ought to do is work to increase TTK but also increase the sense of inevitability. Fight entropy if you will. I think the first step towards that end would be by removing all of those free stats so that people would have to start considering how they want to play. Killing power, sustain, survival, or maybe some balance of them all. Either way they'd have a much harder time of doing it. Sure fights might drag out for a few extra seconds, but is that such a bad thing if you can also ensure that the fights will at least come to a conclusion?

baselesschart

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

Inb4 every NB main says its balanced.

tbh it's just not. Whether the calculations for how damage is done is adjusted or the skill itself is adjusted (why it gives an extra 300 wep/spell dmg is beyond me). I have every class level 50 and with this most recent update, the amount of damage its capable of doing when compared to another burst ability such as Backlash is laughable.

Anytime a nerf to nightblades is proposed, even in theory, you'll have every NB sycophant under the sun try to protect the fact that the class is overtuned.

This is just a loaded response that otherwise suggests you don't know how to counter the ability. People are just now complaining even though relentless has been able to hit these tooltips for as long as i've been playing nightblade.

Consider that the screenshot was taken from a context where that nightblade had a full balorgh proc off, it crit, and OP probably has low crit resist. Relentless doesn't always hit that hard. I consistently have fights where my relentless only hits for 8k.

And again, nightblade has always been the dominant burst class, as it should be. The trade off being is that it is rather squishy. Other classes what they might lack in burst compared to nightblade they make up in sustained pressure. This isn't as pronounced now as ZOS has recently gutted DoTs but my point still stands.

Thecompton73

Yes balanced

blktauna wrote: »

TBH I am never able to keep stacks long enough in pvp to get the thing to fire so mad props to those who do. It falls off so rapidly I jus don't bother with the skill.

This all the way. It's a much harder burst ability to use than what any other class has so it should definitely reward someone who manages to build up the stacks and land the ability on an opponent before they lose them.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Many scenarios exist where you can't block, dodge, or even notice the telegraph. Regardless of your skill level.

Imagine playing a toon in cyrodil without battle spirit effects. That's exactly how NB feels in the right hands.

There are My 2 cents on it is to ignore all the so called counterplay posts in this thread. Roll a nb or ice warden if you really want to counter this.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

As your username states, what you're saying is baseless. I already stated that I have every class at level 50. We can boast about our experience within the game, which I don't mind sharing. I have 16k+ hours majority of it in pvp, from the Kill counter addon, over a quarter of my confirmed kills come from Nightblades and the class that does kill me the most is nightblade. I've regularly sparred with nightblades and within the circles I run in, it is known that it is hard to land the bow on me as I tend to dodge them almost every time. If you'd like a list of names, I'd be happy to provide one.

The reality is that the skill is overturned. Whether it is from a combination of too much damage baked into the class kit (300 wep spell dmg, or the 10% dmg done provided through concealed. You don't see ANY other class with this amount of damage output.

Prior to the nerf on backlash, my templar with 7.8k spell dmg, 16k pen, and 32k resists back bar was capable of taking down 40k hp+ wardens and bomber necro tanks. The magical number I'd be able to do to them with PoTL (mind you I said spell damage meaning it scaled off my weapon damage at the time, which was around 6.5k wep dmg so it's tooltip was lower than purifying light) was a 9k-12k. That's AFTER 6 seconds of sustained damage.

I cannot understand how it makes sense that I have to do SUSTAINED damage for 6 seconds while lining up a combo while noghtblades can do 5 resource free attacks, do over 10k with their ultimate, and then boost the damage if the bow on top other class buffs to reach this insane damage. AFTER U36, templars are seeing 3 to 4k on their burst.

The bow is overtuned. Whether it's from the skills passive buff or through other class passives on top of weapon/medium armor passives.

Get real.

Thats a lot of text to basically say nothing and not state anything actually imbalanced about relentless itself. You don't consider that the majority of the time relentless doesn't hit those insane numbers. Your problems would literally be solved by running higher crit resist.

baselesschart

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

Took a minute to bold some text for you.

It's fine if you're not interested in a substantive conversation about the validity of whether the skill isnt overtuned or not, but lets try to provide constructive points here. My templar can run over 3k crit resists and still get hit with a 9k bow through block because of how the damage is calculated. No other class is even close to being capable of doing it.

While the idea that any sort of nerf to nightblades is scary, all the buffs nightblades have recieved over the last few patches shouldnt be to the detriment of other classes within the game.

If you're getting hit for 9k through a block, reconsider your build. Other classes aren't necessarily at a detriment. I can have other skilled players kill me a thousand times over on other classes if they know how to counter my burst.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

The ability itself has not been changed and is balanced, it’s the fact that stats have gotten bigger and crit js so strong rn combined with the fact that nb now has a free 10% damage buff that’s almost always up. So if you were to fix the ability you’d need to fix the other issues instead and the ability will balance itself

React

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

I've regularly sparred with nightblades and within the circles I run in, it is known that it is hard to land the bow on me as I tend to dodge them almost every time.

So you agree, the bow is extremely easy to predict and dodge/block.

Dekrypted wrote: »

The reality is that the skill is overturned. Whether it is from a combination of too much damage baked into the class kit (300 wep spell dmg, or the 10% dmg done provided through concealed. You don't see ANY other class with this amount of damage output.

The skill isn't overtuned, the damage modifiers within the toolkit are. Concealed's damage modifier needs an adjustment, and the % damage grantes by incap likely does as well. Scapegoating the bow as the problem, which has all the counterplay in the world and is probably the most difficult part of the class to utilize, is telling of a lack of understanding of why it is hitting so hard right now.

Dekrypted wrote: »

Prior to the nerf on backlash, my templar with 7.8k spell dmg, 16k pen, and 32k resists back bar was capable of taking down 40k hp+ wardens and bomber necro tanks. The magical number I'd be able to do to them with PoTL (mind you I said spell damage meaning it scaled off my weapon damage at the time, which was around 6.5k wep dmg so it's tooltip was lower than purifying light) was a 9k-12k. That's AFTER 6 seconds of sustained damage.

You took the morph that had lower scaling in exchange for 3k pen. That's your choice. PL/POTL were both unblockable and undodgeable with initial hits and secondary effects. They were delayed bursts, which allows you to stack more damage into one GCD as their burst happened 6s after the GCD you used them in. Hardly comparable to AW.

Dekrypted wrote: »

I cannot understand how it makes sense that I have to do SUSTAINED damage for 6 seconds while lining up a combo while noghtblades can do 5 resource free attacks, do over 10k with their ultimate, and then boost the damage if the bow on top other class buffs to reach this insane damage. AFTER U36, templars are seeing 3 to 4k on their burst.

Again, you're comparing an unblockable/undodgeable delayed burst "hitscan" ranged ability to a 500ms minimum travel time projectile with prerequisites. They aren't the same thing.

U36 PL/POTL got overnerfed, sure. They were too strong before, but now aren't strong enough.

Dem_kitkats1

Yes balanced

Normally, I would say that is a disgusting amount of damage from 1 skill. However, if running high health, high mitigation and healing is acceptable, the class that is meant to counter that should most definitely have the ability to put a dent into health bars. Aside from a few skilled NB players that have the skill to keep the stacks up in time to capitalize on their combo, I haven't found it to be that much of a problem. I think that people lose sight of the fact that class diversity comes from classes actually having countering strengths and weaknesses to each other. (Though ZOS managed to mangle that idea)

TheHeroCat

In my humble opinion assassin will hits hard

React

Yes balanced

Dekrypted wrote: »

Responding to the first part quoted
You just agreed with me that the class is getting too much from its kit that amps up the damage too much. Cool we're on the same page in that the class is overtuned.

Yes, just like I already said in the first comment within the thread..

Dekrypted wrote: »

Taking the lower damage morph of backlash comparing the 9 to 12k I'd get with maybe a 10-15k still isnt the same as doing 28k damage with a bow. I had to do sustained damage and line up a combo in order to produce that result when its completely possible to mitigate the damage and reduce the delayed burst.

Backlash and all morphs were bugged for years - you never actually needed to deal the damage you were supposed to in order to reach the cap (or near it). That skill frequentlently would bug out and remember previous casts, resulting in near max procs with no sustained damage at all. I'm fairly certain this is why they redesigned it to begin with - they couldn't fix the bugs.

You're acting as if templar wouldn't have spent those 4-5s post cast being aggressive anyways - that skill fit the jabs playstyle to a T.

Also, you mention that you had to "line up a combo" to produce the result, as if the spectral bow doesn't require any timing or combos. It has every counterplay mechanic possible, and according to you, is very easy to block and dodge.

Dekrypted wrote: »

The has little "delay" in its burst compared to the obvious delay that exists for Templars. It's delay is much more comparable to that of a Proc'd Cystal Frag or even whip where as Templar's burst requires, again, sustained damage in order to reach a number that isnt even close to that of bow.

It shouldn't be close to a bow. It is undodgeable and unblockable, as well as delayed.

Dekrypted wrote: »

I'm not sitting here advocating for Spec bow to be gutted as many others may be, but the damage it can produce is too high. Whether the skill loses the damage buff and additional adjustments to the class kit are applied, or the class kit itself receives adjustments doesnt matter to me. The output is too high and doesnt match what other classes are doing.

Well given that your first two comments were about spectral bow being overtuned and needing a nerf, it can be easy to mistake you for "sitting here advocating for Spec bow to be gutted".

Dekrypted wrote: »

If NB's burst heal healed as much as dark deal (which has no scaling for whatever reason), it'd be a fine justification for the damage because of the poor healing output, but Nightblades have access to so much in their kit including Cloak guaranteeing 100% crits, Incap boosting the damage by 20%, or shade allowing you to just pop out of an unfavorable situation and reset the fight, the class has alot in it's kit.

Yes, nightblades have a versatile kit. Most classes should be updated to also have versatile kits. There is a ton of room for improvement when it comes to class balance in PVP, most of it we'll probably never see.

I main nightblade and frequently talk about how it is the strongest class right now on stream. It definitely could use some adjustments, but assasin's will is not one of the things that needs adjustment.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

React dont pick this hill to die on. even if they arent the same ability backlash is the templar equivalent to AW. its their bust skill man. we get it you only play nb and you know alot about nb but dont die on a hill that so obv just wrong and petty.

React

Yes balanced

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

React dont pick this hill to die on. even if they arent the same ability backlash is the templar equivalent to AW. its their bust skill man. we get it you only play nb and you know alot about nb but dont die on a hill that so obv just wrong and petty.

I have probably 6k hours on templar, 4k on nightblade, 2-3k on (stam)sorc, 2-3k on dk (mag & stam), and probably another 1k across my wardens & necros on the two servers.

You can't just say "it's the templar version of AW". The only thing they have in common is that they're burst abilities by nature. The similarities stop there. The skill is directly comparable to crystal frag, and to a lesser extent molten whip.

There isn't anything petty about it, I strongly disagree that AW is imbalanced, and the logic of comparing it to PL is flawed.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

i think most of us agree the ability itsself is balanced, however nb itsself is not and i think we can all agree on that too.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

the definition of a delayed burst ability is an ability that you cast and then can do other things while that skill does damage. so we kinda do have to compare it to other instant cast abelites. AW isn't delayed it just has travel time and that's a very different thing.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

As bad as react is at ESO he's pretty much on it with everything he's said in here, it's 100% all the damage modifiers and even maybe some of the passives in nb's kit not the actual skill itself.

Even in it's current form I'd rather fight against it than pre-nerf backlash, no counterplay besides purge, as well as delayed damage.

The issue with NB is insanely overloaded damage modifiers, access to a heavy amount of buffs/debuffs in solid class skills, and a way overtuned burst heal, possibly cloak having 0 penalties to being spammed as well. Assassin's will is not on the list in my opinion.

React

Yes balanced

MetallicMonk wrote: »

As bad as react is at ESO he's pretty much on it with everything he's said in here, it's 100% all the damage modifiers and even maybe some of the passives in nb's kit not the actual skill itself.

Even in it's current form I'd rather fight against it than pre-nerf backlash, no counterplay besides purge, as well as delayed damage.

The issue with NB is insanely overloaded damage modifiers, access to a heavy amount of buffs/debuffs in solid class skills, and a way overtuned burst heal, possibly cloak having 0 penalties to being spammed as well. Assassin's will is not on the list in my opinion.

Here is where I'd start with a first round of nerfs to nightblade (PTS week 1 type deal, to be buffed/nerfed further as needed)

1) Concealed - modifier down to 5% damage done if the proc is going to remain the way it is now, or reverted back to 300WD/SD for 10 seconds (original pts value) if they made it proc the bonus on cast. Minor expedition removed. Tooltip increased to match surprise attack (+4.4%).

2) Shadowy disguise - fatigue added, just like streak or roll dodge.

3) Phantasmal - roll cost reduction capped at 30-50%.

4) Power extraction - remove the minor cowardice.

5) Death Stroke and morphs - reduce the damage modifier by 5%.

6) Healthy Offering - remove the vitality on cast. This morph heals 5% more as the morph effect (rather than granting 5% vitality for 10s). Both morphs of this skill - the DOT effect should be exponential. It already stacks, but rather than putting 3 dots on you that each tick for 100 damage per second if you press it 3 times consecutively, the first dot would tick for 100/s, the second for 200/s, the third for 300/s, etc. These would still stack, and this would encourage you not to spam the ability. Numbers are just examples, the dots hit harder than that on the live server.

TechMaybeHic

I don't know. I feel that getting 20% bonus on it after hitting an ultimate and 10% more damage from hidden blade gives the damage you are talking about and don't think it would be as bad if those were fixed. But there may be a balance issue in the weapon damage it grants while it waits, and the heal on top of that might be a bit too much. But its not exactly just press and win as there are a lot of things to get lined up to make it truly give you those advantages. I kind of feel other classes should be as rewarded and many are just not.

SkaraMinoc

No not balanced

Are we playing the same game? Because I ate over 30 Assassin's Will's tonight and not once did I see or hear a single telegraph until it was too late.

It's also not emitted by the Lua api until the damage lands.

MetallicMonk

Yes balanced

React wrote: »

MetallicMonk wrote: »

As bad as react is at ESO he's pretty much on it with everything he's said in here, it's 100% all the damage modifiers and even maybe some of the passives in nb's kit not the actual skill itself.

Even in it's current form I'd rather fight against it than pre-nerf backlash, no counterplay besides purge, as well as delayed damage.

The issue with NB is insanely overloaded damage modifiers, access to a heavy amount of buffs/debuffs in solid class skills, and a way overtuned burst heal, possibly cloak having 0 penalties to being spammed as well. Assassin's will is not on the list in my opinion.

Here is where I'd start with a first round of nerfs to nightblade (PTS week 1 type deal, to be buffed/nerfed further as needed)

1) Concealed - modifier down to 5% damage done if the proc is going to remain the way it is now, or reverted back to 300WD/SD for 10 seconds (original pts value) if they made it proc the bonus on cast. Minor expedition removed. Tooltip increased to match surprise attack (+4.4%).

2) Shadowy disguise - fatigue added, just like streak or roll dodge.

3) Phantasmal - roll cost reduction capped at 30-50%.

4) Power extraction - remove the minor cowardice.

5) Death Stroke and morphs - reduce the damage modifier by 5%.

6) Healthy Offering - remove the vitality on cast. This morph heals 5% more as the morph effect (rather than granting 5% vitality for 10s). Both morphs of this skill - the DOT effect should be exponential. It already stacks, but rather than putting 3 dots on you that each tick for 100 damage per second if you press it 3 times consecutively, the first dot would tick for 100/s, the second for 200/s, the third for 300/s, etc. These would still stack, and this would encourage you not to spam the ability. Numbers are just examples, the dots hit harder than that on the live server.

I'd agree with all of this to not go overboard and see how the class performs after. Personally wish we weren't living in a day of these massive burst heals being needed on every single class but since we are in a time like this healthy offering with a little bit more downside would be reasonable probably.

Phantasmal honestly I think isn't that bad, it's a loaded skill but I don't think the roll cost dodge on it is an outlier in performance for the class, I think it's one of the few abilities that's actually cool and well designed, fits class identity which is very rare currently. It's a solid all around skill and becomes even better when more targets are focusing you.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Are we playing the same game? Because I ate over 30 Assassin's Will's tonight and not once did I see or hear a single telegraph until it was too late.

It's also not emitted by the Lua api until the damage lands.

theoretically he is right and you can hear it, but you almost never will when your in cyro or bgs pre much most of what react said only applies to 1v1s since thats the only content he actually does

Dojohoda

Yes balanced

Factors other than being a nightblade are in play here. I play magblade in PVP, for 7 years, using mostly nightblade skills. I have never hit anyone in PVP with numbers like that, never. I feel lucky if it hits 10k, it's usually less and IF it lands. More often than not, it is dodged.

Also, I have never, in 7 years of Cyrodiil, been hit with those numbers from a spectral bow.

SkaraMinoc

No not balanced

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Are we playing the same game? Because I ate over 30 Assassin's Will's tonight and not once did I see or hear a single telegraph until it was too late.

It's also not emitted by the Lua api until the damage lands.

theoretically he is right and you can hear it, but you almost never will when your in cyro or bgs pre much most of what react said only applies to 1v1s since thats the only content he actually does

Yes I can hear the sound clear as day but there is no 500ms delay for me. The sound always plays when the damage lands.

I would love a magical 500ms so I can actually avoid Assassin's Will in melee range. I block abilities all the time. Dark Convergence, for example, rarely pulls me because I block it instantly out of habit. With Assassin's Will there's zero opportunity for me to avoid it.

I ping 50ms to PC NA and locked at 119 fps gsync.

Sergykid

these players that keep on saying that u can react to assassin will are getting so obnoxious.

"just dodge or block it" no. Stop. That "500ms" travel time is under reaction time.
And even if you notice it, by the time you react it already hits you.
And even if you react to it, by the time you do an action it already damages you.

Also "short window", what? isn't it 60 seconds available time to launch it? or what do i know?

this is s spell you must intuit, you must expect it and react before you think it will come, like after an incap.

it is balanced in terms of damage for its requirements, but it also has some passive bonuses. But drop the reaction time counterplayability nonsense.

cuddles_with_wroble

Yes balanced

Dojohoda wrote: »

Factors other than being a nightblade are in play here. I play magblade in PVP, for 7 years, using mostly nightblade skills. I have never hit anyone in PVP with numbers like that, never. I feel lucky if it hits 10k, it's usually less and IF it lands. More often than not, it is dodged.

Also, I have never, in 7 years of Cyrodiil, been hit with those numbers from a spectral bow.

not being toxic but mate this is a personal issue, we all get hit by numbers like this consistently from high end pvp nightblade players