Assassin's Will is balanced

OBJnoob

No not balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave I think there's a pretty large gaping window between AW and BA where one could be buffed or nerfed without becoming the other. Illustrated indirectly by how when you see a 25k AW on a death recap you remark "you're squishy, I could a hit you with a 10k crystal crit." 10k. 25k. 10k. 25k. Can AW not do 20k instead of 25k?

Don't get me wrong I see the logic in your stance. Yes, lowering their % modifiers or even changing their crit and penetration passives would also lower AW. But it would lower everything else as well and then you'd just have a deeper hole to dig out of when it came time to fix PvE.

Okay first of all, that 25k AW was amplified by Incap's 20% dmg taken modifier. It would have realistically done ~20k damage without the modifier. So right of the bat we can see how much AW can do with all the extra amplifiers this class has. BA without amplifiers would do around 3k-3.5k damage per dagger against that person, or 12k-14k total damage. With 5 daggers, that's about 15k-17.5k total damage.

So 14k BA with 4 daggers vs 20k AW. Yes. BA deals 6k less damage, but the major benefit of BA is that it will drain your opponent's stam more. Since block cost has a 0.5s cooldown, your opponent's going to be drained twice per BA cast if they decide to block. This benefit alone helps it tremendously vs blocking targets.

That's just with 4 daggers. 5 dagger BA (which honestly should be given to Sorc by now) will trigger block cost 3 times per cast. I'm not saying BA is stronger than AW. I'm just saying BA when buffed will be stronger than AW, and AW when nerfed will not be as good as BA.




So we've established that the 25k AW from the screenshot was amplified by Incap and 20k would be the actual value, then how are you going to fix NB being absolutely shut down by roll dodge and block builds after AW gets nerfed? With 260 ping, I increased my survivability tremendously when I started blocking more than normal. Only times I died was when lag got me. With normal ping and no lag, there is nothing the NB can do to even remotely dent my HP.

As for PvE, why not just make their class DoTs stronger and nerf the modifiers? There are no NBs running class DoTs in PvP right now, and a huge buff to class DoTs wouldn't automatically make them slot those DoTs. There are too many good abilities for NB to give up.

So your sorc uses BA then?

StaticWave

No not balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave I think there's a pretty large gaping window between AW and BA where one could be buffed or nerfed without becoming the other. Illustrated indirectly by how when you see a 25k AW on a death recap you remark "you're squishy, I could a hit you with a 10k crystal crit." 10k. 25k. 10k. 25k. Can AW not do 20k instead of 25k?

Don't get me wrong I see the logic in your stance. Yes, lowering their % modifiers or even changing their crit and penetration passives would also lower AW. But it would lower everything else as well and then you'd just have a deeper hole to dig out of when it came time to fix PvE.

Okay first of all, that 25k AW was amplified by Incap's 20% dmg taken modifier. It would have realistically done ~20k damage without the modifier. So right of the bat we can see how much AW can do with all the extra amplifiers this class has. BA without amplifiers would do around 3k-3.5k damage per dagger against that person, or 12k-14k total damage. With 5 daggers, that's about 15k-17.5k total damage.

So 14k BA with 4 daggers vs 20k AW. Yes. BA deals 6k less damage, but the major benefit of BA is that it will drain your opponent's stam more. Since block cost has a 0.5s cooldown, your opponent's going to be drained twice per BA cast if they decide to block. This benefit alone helps it tremendously vs blocking targets.

That's just with 4 daggers. 5 dagger BA (which honestly should be given to Sorc by now) will trigger block cost 3 times per cast. I'm not saying BA is stronger than AW. I'm just saying BA when buffed will be stronger than AW, and AW when nerfed will not be as good as BA.




So we've established that the 25k AW from the screenshot was amplified by Incap and 20k would be the actual value, then how are you going to fix NB being absolutely shut down by roll dodge and block builds after AW gets nerfed? With 260 ping, I increased my survivability tremendously when I started blocking more than normal. Only times I died was when lag got me. With normal ping and no lag, there is nothing the NB can do to even remotely dent my HP.

As for PvE, why not just make their class DoTs stronger and nerf the modifiers? There are no NBs running class DoTs in PvP right now, and a huge buff to class DoTs wouldn't automatically make them slot those DoTs. There are too many good abilities for NB to give up.

So your sorc uses BA then?

I've always used BA and preferred it over Curse for the following reasons:

1) 8% max HP
2) ~2k stam on front bar
3) Can't be cleansed
4) Isn't as telegraphed as Curse
5) Can be used as added pressure with light attack weaving
6) Is better at draining block cost
7) Can be combined with Curse
8) Better chance of proccing Surge heal because of 4 instances of damage

BA isn't as strong as AW obviously and should be buffed, but it's definitely much better than Curse for what I'm running.

FoJul

Hoarcrux wrote: »

React wrote: »

Edit: Here is the context that was missing, provided by the OP. OP was in a 1v1 with a warden, and had major + minor breach on him (-9k resists) and minor brittle (+10% crit damage taken), when this nightblade ganked him from stealth. He also states there was possibly a guard there, which means it is likely he had the guard puncture debuff - which is a 20-30% damage taken debuff.

Context is important. This person could have a 100-130% crit damage modifier, 30k+ pen, 6.5-7.5k WD (especially if using balorgh), and over 40% in flat skill/status sourced damage modifiers. In this case they'd be fully penning you, and their crits would still be dealing 80-100% more than the TT damage. These are all stats that you can realistically reach on a 1vX build with no outside buffs.

The skill is a slow moving projectile that requires 5 light attacks to proc, is blockable and dodgeable, has two distinct audio queues (one when it procs after 5 light attacks, another when it is fired), and has a 500ms minimum travel time, meaning at point blank you ALWAYS have sufficient time to break free of a stun and block or dodge it (with the exception of a well timed OB stun).

The other thing about AW is that it hasn't had it's damage changed in an extremely long time. The reason that people are seeing bigger numbers from it now (and subsequently, complaining) is because of the concealed weapon 10% damage modifier.

Concealed and several other parts of the nightblade kit could use adjustments - assassin's will is fine.

Spoken like a true Nightblade main. The fact that u can medium-weave icap and resolve in the same global CD and being unavoidable damage is the issue. Yes, there is some of setup that goes into the BIG crit, but there is no counterplay for it. That is the issue. I cannot even fossilize, whip players consistently on the DK because you can break-free, roll dodge in-between GCDs. Having a "spammable" that hits twice as hard as any ultimate in the entire game is not "Balanced" nor should be defended. If i cannot successful mitigate the burst of damage as a 9year veteran player, how can 95% of the player base do so? It is simply too simple. I will even play the Devils advocate and say, "okay well Nightbaldes are assassins'" sure that's fine, so explain why their healing is better than any other class in the game with healthy offering? When you give one class the highest burst damage, the best burst heals and access to stealth which is spammable.... i mean something has to give. Pick your poison. Nightblades have their cake and eat it too

DK main complaining about nightblade? Whaaaaaaaaa *Spoken like a true DK main*

Another Edit: I forgot to mention that off balance/medium weave/ and Merciless do have counterplay. You can literally block and dodge the entire combo. If you have an issue landing whips, that's on you. A way you can do this same combo, is using the talons ability, flame lash, medium weave (insert burst or ultimate here). It would be the same thing. Fossilize isn't even right to put in the convo. So don't put it there.

Let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument. What about rangeblade's in the same exact sets and with similar stats, not even doing a Quarter of the damage a melee blade is doing?

I don't think merciless is overtuned in that matter, I think other areas of the class are giving it to much credit. For instance, if I am vamp 3, with concealed on my bar. I can basically get sea-serpent buff just from hitting cloak. BALANCED. Instead of getting a movement snare, I'm actually getting Minor expedition from Concealed. BALANCED. Only on melee can I get to 125% crit damage (75% on the actual stat sheet) with dual wield axes. BALANCED. With exploiter/incap/CPs/Concealed that is what 52% extra damage done Stacked on top of the 125% crit damage. Thats not even calculating the 7k Weapon and Spell damage you get from medium armor and having melee weapons.

The main point here, is everyone is attacking the wrong issue here.

Off balance/Medium weaving has been a thing forever. Nightblades aren't the only ones who use this method. However, the damage modifiers it takes to hit a 20k assassins will is really easily avoidable. I can fight certain people and average 6k assassin wills on.

But like I said if you stop thinking about that one particular build that every nightblade is running. Assassins will isn't the issue. Its the Damage modifiers they have access too.

Edit: I think crit damage on the axes change from I don't even remember when paired with hybridization, and the fact that devs overlook issue and keep buffing it to balance the class in PvE; are the biggest factors of why the class got overtuned anyways. We are probably going to see more buffs due to nightblade lacking in PvE.

FoJul

FoJul wrote: »

Hoarcrux wrote: »

React wrote: »

Edit: Here is the context that was missing, provided by the OP. OP was in a 1v1 with a warden, and had major + minor breach on him (-9k resists) and minor brittle (+10% crit damage taken), when this nightblade ganked him from stealth. He also states there was possibly a guard there, which means it is likely he had the guard puncture debuff - which is a 20-30% damage taken debuff.

Context is important. This person could have a 100-130% crit damage modifier, 30k+ pen, 6.5-7.5k WD (especially if using balorgh), and over 40% in flat skill/status sourced damage modifiers. In this case they'd be fully penning you, and their crits would still be dealing 80-100% more than the TT damage. These are all stats that you can realistically reach on a 1vX build with no outside buffs.

The skill is a slow moving projectile that requires 5 light attacks to proc, is blockable and dodgeable, has two distinct audio queues (one when it procs after 5 light attacks, another when it is fired), and has a 500ms minimum travel time, meaning at point blank you ALWAYS have sufficient time to break free of a stun and block or dodge it (with the exception of a well timed OB stun).

The other thing about AW is that it hasn't had it's damage changed in an extremely long time. The reason that people are seeing bigger numbers from it now (and subsequently, complaining) is because of the concealed weapon 10% damage modifier.

Concealed and several other parts of the nightblade kit could use adjustments - assassin's will is fine.

Spoken like a true Nightblade main. The fact that u can medium-weave icap and resolve in the same global CD and being unavoidable damage is the issue. Yes, there is some of setup that goes into the BIG crit, but there is no counterplay for it. That is the issue. I cannot even fossilize, whip players consistently on the DK because you can break-free, roll dodge in-between GCDs. Having a "spammable" that hits twice as hard as any ultimate in the entire game is not "Balanced" nor should be defended. If i cannot successful mitigate the burst of damage as a 9year veteran player, how can 95% of the player base do so? It is simply too simple. I will even play the Devils advocate and say, "okay well Nightbaldes are assassins'" sure that's fine, so explain why their healing is better than any other class in the game with healthy offering? When you give one class the highest burst damage, the best burst heals and access to stealth which is spammable.... i mean something has to give. Pick your poison. Nightblades have their cake and eat it too

DK main complaining about nightblade? Whaaaaaaaaa *Spoken like a true DK main*

Another Edit: I forgot to mention that off balance/medium weave/ and Merciless do have counterplay. You can literally block and dodge the entire combo. If you have an issue landing whips, that's on you. A way you can do this same combo, is using the talons ability, flame lash, medium weave (insert burst or ultimate here). It would be the same thing. Fossilize isn't even right to put in the convo. So don't put it there.

Let me throw a monkey wrench into your argument. What about rangeblade's in the same exact sets and with similar stats, not even doing a Quarter of the damage a melee blade is doing?

I don't think merciless is overtuned in that matter, I think other areas of the class are giving it to much credit. For instance, if I am vamp 3, with concealed on my bar. I can basically get sea-serpent buff just from hitting cloak. BALANCED. Instead of getting a movement snare, I'm actually getting Minor expedition from Concealed. BALANCED. Only on melee can I get to 125% crit damage (75% on the actual stat sheet) with dual wield axes. BALANCED. With exploiter/incap/CPs/Concealed that is what 52% extra damage done Stacked on top of the 125% crit damage. Thats not even calculating the 7k Weapon and Spell damage you get from medium armor and having melee weapons.

The main point here, is everyone is attacking the wrong issue here.

Off balance/Medium weaving has been a thing forever. Nightblades aren't the only ones who use this method. However, the damage modifiers it takes to hit a 20k assassins will is really easily avoidable. I can fight certain people and average 6k assassin wills on.

But like I said if you stop thinking about that one particular build that every nightblade is running. Assassins will isn't the issue. Its the Damage modifiers they have access too.

Edit: I think crit damage on the axes change from I don't even remember when paired with hybridization, and the fact that devs overlook issue and keep buffing it to balance the class in PvE; are the biggest factors of why the class got overtuned anyways. We are probably going to see more buffs due to nightblade lacking in PvE.

Both morphs set the enemy off balance. Don't know if you knew that @Hoarcrux

Baconlad

Comming into this a bit late. But I have to agree with others that AW is fine. It's VERY delayed, and takes two skill presses and light attacks to build up. I have never played nightblade, but as a magplar that has all of my skills on a cast time giving me ample to think of my next skill, I can't imagine having to juggle that, thinking five light attacks ahead and pretending my braindead opponent doesn't know what's comming.

Not to mention NBs built for that kinda damage have a VERY high chance of dying before they can even get to a place in battle to fire it off. Having to cloak for safety, not light attacking and all.

This skill rewards the very high difficulty of it with damage...as it should.

Also...I mostly don't want other classes looked at for fear of zeni doing a balance pass again...every time they do a balance pass my magplar get shafted (minus the buff to jbeam and solar flare recently). I mainly am afraid for them to nerf my Jbeam...as I use it on opponents for EVERY kill...it's my belief that the strongest skill in the game is jbeam.

With my build, I have 27k tooltip on it over three tics and 1.8 seconds. Do the math. In cyrodiil I am critting full health squishies for 5k in on tic. It's nasty. 2 seconds of Undodgeable, not blockable at low health, shields drop as soon as they go up 15k damage, THEN it starts to ramp up damage...it's an impossibly strong skill when build completely around it. And all of this with 14k penetration, a 17k dark flare tooltip and a 8k javelin TT...(before the ranged buff to it). My combo is insane.

I was in a BG with a well known Xbox player. (Who told me through whispers and was validated in later matches talking with his former teammates...) this player told his team to get off of the platform in the middle of the map because I had solo killed BOTH TEAMS. just with jbeam. He told them not to fight me in the open, which barely helped them as I've become accustomed to players not knowing how to play against me. Their problem was a L2P issue, as I have when I die to AW, and as it seems to the OP having issue countering the VERY obvious skill...

Seriously (dont) look at jbeam...it's insane what it's capable of...

SandandStars

No not balanced

DK is easy mode
NB is god mode

play either class if you feel good using cheese to win (vs other classes)

Y’all gotta admit that a skilled player on NB has no competition but another skilled player on NB

if you dont, enjoy your denial fantasy, and then sometime try a different class in pvp and see how it goes

IZZEFlameLash

No not balanced

Baconlad wrote: »

Comming into this a bit late. But I have to agree with others that AW is fine. It's VERY delayed, and takes two skill presses and light attacks to build up. I have never played nightblade, but as a magplar that has all of my skills on a cast time giving me ample to think of my next skill, I can't imagine having to juggle that, thinking five light attacks ahead and pretending my braindead opponent doesn't know what's comming.

Not to mention NBs built for that kinda damage have a VERY high chance of dying before they can even get to a place in battle to fire it off. Having to cloak for safety, not light attacking and all.

This skill rewards the very high difficulty of it with damage...as it should.

Also...I mostly don't want other classes looked at for fear of zeni doing a balance pass again...every time they do a balance pass my magplar get shafted (minus the buff to jbeam and solar flare recently). I mainly am afraid for them to nerf my Jbeam...as I use it on opponents for EVERY kill...it's my belief that the strongest skill in the game is jbeam.

With my build, I have 27k tooltip on it over three tics and 1.8 seconds. Do the math. In cyrodiil I am critting full health squishies for 5k in on tic. It's nasty. 2 seconds of Undodgeable, not blockable at low health, shields drop as soon as they go up 15k damage, THEN it starts to ramp up damage...it's an impossibly strong skill when build completely around it. And all of this with 14k penetration, a 17k dark flare tooltip and a 8k javelin TT...(before the ranged buff to it). My combo is insane.

I was in a BG with a well known Xbox player. (Who told me through whispers and was validated in later matches talking with his former teammates...) this player told his team to get off of the platform in the middle of the map because I had solo killed BOTH TEAMS. just with jbeam. He told them not to fight me in the open, which barely helped them as I've become accustomed to players not knowing how to play against me. Their problem was a L2P issue, as I have when I die to AW, and as it seems to the OP having issue countering the VERY obvious skill...

Seriously (dont) look at jbeam...it's insane what it's capable of...

Only time a NB is actually highly killable is when they are bombers that just failed the bomb or bowblades that are sporting golded out non-set Ruby Ash bow (same for armors) or 1 green set piece of different sets for weapons and armors that they got from questing in PvE zone. Otherwise, no. NBs with ability to press more than 2 buttons will survive better than anyone else and remain super tanky. Most NBs that are above the no build bowblade tier tend to show tankiness you can only find in a ballgroup crosshealing with other classes or a Templar/Warden block heal tank. This is all the while having the most smoothly executable combo that in total can deal at least 50k damage or more combined.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

It doesn't matter if they're tanky or squishy the ability still does too much damage tbh.

I respect the notion of somebody building all glass and being able to gank. But it should still be harder than it currently is.

Like omg.... The only damage abilities I use are a spammable, an ulti, and a nuclear weapon. The skill gap is so large on this class every class should be this way!

There are NBs with fingers and there are NBs without fingers. There are NBs that slot their nuclear weapon and there are NBs that for whatever reason don't. That's it.

High risk high reward my butt. You want risk? Play something else.