Assassin's Will is balanced

Mr_Jord_Joe

No not balanced

A single skill cannot in any way deal that much damage... that's more damage than any direct damage ultimates... and there are still people who don't realize that... regardless of whether core skills are being used or no...

If that's balanced, then I want the skill ''radiant destruction'' of templar scale from 100% health, thanks!

baselesschart

Yes balanced

sunshineflame wrote: »

A nightblade main says "just dodge it...its basically the worst skill in all of PvP...in fact buff it because a guard debuffed him otherwise it would've probably healed the him doing negative damage"

Just ReACt fASteR.......Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Seems like a reasonable solution. Its one of the most telegraphed and predictable burst abilities in the game, so if you get hit with it in a no lag scenario it is 100% your fault.

DrNukenstein

It was balanced, and then they made it keep stacks out of combat in PVP. Now it really is the ultimate finger of death super attack.

Like it was totally a valid point that it was a high headspace move that was difficult to land, and that with the buff being so likely to get recast after firing it would sometimes actually cause you to whiff even if it hit.

Now at worst it's just 300 weapon and spell damage and at best an actual gun in a game that does not have those.

DrNukenstein

Also, if you're really getting hit by 25k+ AW's you are totally a potato.

I am confident in saying this because I too am a potato, and the highest AW I've ever eaten is 16k in CP.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

It's the hardest hitting ability in the game. So it's pretty much unbalanced by definition--compared to other abilities. Now if it belonged to a class that was otherwise weak then you could make an argument for it being balanced nonetheless.

As it is? Obviously not balanced. Very obvious. To the point where you really have to wonder about anyone who disagrees. Do they only 1v1? Are they themselves a NB? Are they just plain wrong?

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

DrNukenstein wrote: »

Also, if you're really getting hit by 25k+ AW's you are totally a potato.

I am confident in saying this because I too am a potato, and the highest AW I've ever eaten is 16k in CP.

Proc sets easily do 5x the damage of aw and you don’t need to be a potato for that

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

It's the hardest hitting ability in the game. So it's pretty much unbalanced by definition--compared to other abilities. Now if it belonged to a class that was otherwise weak then you could make an argument for it being balanced nonetheless.

As it is? Obviously not balanced. Very obvious. To the point where you really have to wonder about anyone who disagrees. Do they only 1v1? Are they themselves a NB? Are they just plain wrong?

I am not a NB main but I still believe it’s balanced for a fact that you have proc sets which hit much harder than the whole nb combo without pressing any buttons

I am pretty sure 99% of player deaths in todays meta are due to proc sets. Makes no sense whatsoever to nerf class skills

To me nb and dk actually look like well designed classes as they stand a chance against the rest of thrash tier classes wearing proc sets

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

DrNukenstein wrote: »

It was balanced, and then they made it keep stacks out of combat in PVP. Now it really is the ultimate finger of death super attack.

Like it was totally a valid point that it was a high headspace move that was difficult to land, and that with the buff being so likely to get recast after firing it would sometimes actually cause you to whiff even if it hit.

Now at worst it's just 300 weapon and spell damage and at best an actual gun in a game that does not have those.

Don’t worry, you will still die from gazzalion procs before you fire your aw

So still balanced

SandandStars

No not balanced

Someone despises the proc set meta nearly as much as I do.

[snip]
[edited for conspiracy theory]

TechMaybeHic

SandandStars wrote: »

Someone despises the proc set meta nearly as much as I do.

[snip]

Its kind of bi-polar when this exists at the same time as ball groups which let's face it; coordinating an entire groups sets and abilities and everything else, is the sweatiest playstyle possible

[edited to remove quote]

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

Mr_Jord_Joe wrote: »

A single skill cannot in any way deal that much damage... that's more damage than any direct damage ultimates... and there are still people who don't realize that... regardless of whether core skills are being used or no...

If that's balanced, then I want the skill ''radiant destruction'' of templar scale from 100% health, thanks!

Why are you talking about skills ?

You can do 5x AW damage even without skills in today's meta.

DrNukenstein

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Its kind of bi-polar when this exists at the same time as ball groups which let's face it; coordinating an entire groups sets and abilities and everything else, is the sweatiest playstyle possible

Nah, it's totally delta nerd stuff. Just make a spread sheet for your potluck to keep track of who's bringing what to the party then steam roll the performance players trying to enjoy the vastly more fun and intellectual small scale.

fred4

Yes balanced

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

My in game experience yesterday showed me that all three are garbage at detecting NB. Every fight with a NB the initial use had less than 50% chance of showing the NB.

From the NBs PoV, well-executed detection can be extremely nasty. There have been days in my "career" as NB where detection has completely denied my playstyle. Luckily the average player doesn't have the practice or the will to actively hunt NBs otherwise the class, or rather the cloak / ganking playstyle, would be dead in the water.

What you describe is not how to do detection. Unless you're standing on a flag and have nothing better to do, you should only use detection when you see the NB, e.g. before it cloaks away. Inner Light etc. will prevent them from cloaking for a few seconds, but must already be running when the NB attempts to cloak otherwise - as you have found - it's 50/50 that it's too late. A potion will not uncloak the NB as such, but you will see them despite them cloaking. If you can match their speed you can keep them in sight, though you do have to work on keeping your camera on them and focus them. If you are slow and you are not, for example, a DK with a Leap ready to go, then you may have to treat nightblades as a nuisance. Preserve your resources for when they attack, but don't actively go after them.

One fight I had yesterday I had Inner light active, flare on the ground and I got hit by a NB that was less than 5m from me.

That's pretty bold of the NB, but all detection skills have a tick frequency. They don't detect instantly. It can take a second. That is enough for a fast nightblade, or one that uses a gap closer, to still take the risk and gank you.

Which I used my Pot to heal myself and ensure he can't go into stealth.

I'd probably block-heal and/or dodge roll, but using a potion for detection immediately is reasonable.

Only after I was hit did I see them for a second until they went invisible again right in front of me with inner light active, flare on the ground and my detect pot active. Sure detecting is working as intended.

Shadow Image. That's probably how that NB took the risk of attacking you without it being much of a risk. Did they kill you? If they ported out immediately that was a half-hearted attempt or they were strictly a ganker and you were too tanky. At the end of the day NBs can still only gank the easy targets. Look at it from the NB's PoV. If they immediately disappear, they're either playing around with Shadow Image for the fun of it, or they know their limitations. Their build may be such a glass cannon that all they could hope for was to kill you outright. Actual duelling was probably off the table. You won't catch a nightblade 1v1 that uses Shadow Image very defensively, but nonetheless you should turn your camera 180 degress in case you can spot them at their Shadow Image behind you. If this was on a flag bridge in IC, look under the bridge.

fred4

Yes balanced

Hmm. Looks like I said "Balanced" a long time ago. Recent changes to Grim Focus have only improved that skill. I'd probably rather stay neutral in the original debate now. I don't PvP enough anymore to have a strong opinion. Many people think NB is strong, even top. As an actual NB I still think Grim Focus is a dodgeable single target skill with an audible cue and the same 400ms delay that ultimates have, prone to miss, prone to positional desyncs, and not stackable with ults in the same GCD. It kills people when it lands, sure, but there are also the Esoteric Greaves, which few people seem to have caught on to. You don't want to be ganked successfully, wear those. Doesn't suit every build, but it's one way to handle gankers.

Amerises

Yes balanced

baselesschart wrote: »

sunshineflame wrote: »

A nightblade main says "just dodge it...its basically the worst skill in all of PvP...in fact buff it because a guard debuffed him otherwise it would've probably healed the him doing negative damage"

Just ReACt fASteR.......Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Seems like a reasonable solution. Its one of the most telegraphed and predictable burst abilities in the game, so if you get hit with it in a no lag scenario it is 100% your fault.

Not to mention the actual ultimate is nearly always dodged as well, lol. Those complaining the most probably have never played a blade

emilyhyoyeon

Yes balanced

this is how much damage I took from a spectral arrow, magsorc 2k crit resist 22k mag resist. As far as I could tell not buffed by balorgh or incap, both of which require noticeable prep, and incap before arrow is basically a free ''I'm about to arrow you so dodgeroll/block now'' telegraph.

Not unusual either, I often see arrows as low as 3-5k. NB balance issues are coming from other skills right now, not arrow.

DrNukenstein

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

this is how much damage I took from a spectral arrow, magsorc 2k crit resist 22k mag resist. As far as I could tell not buffed by balorgh or incap, both of which require noticeable prep, and incap before arrow is basically a free ''I'm about to arrow you so dodgeroll/block now'' telegraph.

Not unusual either, I often see arrows as low as 3-5k. NB balance issues are coming from other skills right now, not arrow.

You forgot to mention that beefy power lash. A very underrated skill that synergizes great with off balance. From the recap it looks like you just got set off balance so they still have 6 more of those skills that can hit for 1.3x an assassins will.

How come no one's asking if D-swing+Power Lash is balanced?

StaticWave

No not balanced

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

Whip and Concealed Weapon spam both seem to drive the worst class balance since 2018 PetSorcs. For both classes there's various suspect damage modifiers but if both skills were greyed out in PvP it would be more fun (at the moment).

Edit: more fun for us bad players that is, since both skills can be blocked and dodged.

OBJnoob

No not balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

Amottica

Yes balanced

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

Dekrypted wrote: »

OnGodiDoDis wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

No ability should hit this hard in PvP. It's nearly the same damage as pre-nerf Oakensoul Corrosive heavy attacks. But let's pretend that ~30k crits are perfectly fine.



Screenshot taken in Cyrodiil with 32k armor, 2209 crit resist, 6% damage reduction.

That's nothing. My bear hits harder than that. Would you say my bear is unbalanced?

Your bear is an execute with execute scaling whereas Bow is not an execute. Try to not compare apples to oranges.

I thought we were comparing damage numbers? What's wrong with the comparison?

Often we compare damage numbers that are not truly comparable or without including vital information.

I will say that you did appropriately trump what they had said as you showed the means to for notably higher than they said should be possible in PvP. While they are correct that you compared an execute to a regular skill that is not relevant to their original comment quoted.

However, in both cases, there is information that is not available, We do not know the pen of the person who attacked them or any of the buffs they may have had when they hit for almost 28k just as we do not know the same for your character of the defensive stats of the character your bear hit.

Just saying.

StaticWave

No not balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I’ve already suggested buffing NB class DoTs to help the class in PvE. NB suffers a weird DoT rotation with short duration, making it waste tons of GCDs reapplying them.

Buff the DoTs by increasing the duration, or damage, or both, while also nerfing the dmg modifiers, is the way to go. There is no need to nerf an ability whose core functionality hasn’t been changed in 5 years.

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I’ve already suggested buffing NB class DoTs to help the class in PvE. NB suffers a weird DoT rotation with short duration, making it waste tons of GCDs reapplying them.

Buff the DoTs by increasing the duration, or damage, or both, while also nerfing the dmg modifiers, is the way to go. There is no need to nerf an ability whose core functionality hasn’t been changed in 5 years.

So Corrosive doesn't need a nerf?

DK and NB both need loads of nerfs, I vote for any and all.

StaticWave

No not balanced

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I’ve already suggested buffing NB class DoTs to help the class in PvE. NB suffers a weird DoT rotation with short duration, making it waste tons of GCDs reapplying them.

Buff the DoTs by increasing the duration, or damage, or both, while also nerfing the dmg modifiers, is the way to go. There is no need to nerf an ability whose core functionality hasn’t been changed in 5 years.

So Corrosive doesn't need a nerf?

DK and NB both need loads of nerfs, I vote for any and all.

I'm pretty sure Corrosive has been nerfed several times over the years and it's still being asked to be nerfed lol.

I think both of them need nerfs, but people are asking for the wrong nerfs imo.

NB has never been a problem for me and other competent players up until hybridization and the buff to Healthy Offering. They essentially removed the only weakness that prevented this class from being top tier.

DK has always been a problem for me because I play stamsorc and my class' healing isn't exactly strong. However, I can manage to stalemate them if I build enough healing and sustain. What I've noticed though is I can kill DKs who are squishy (even though they can kill me faster as they're probably fully specced in damage), but I can't kill tankier DKs yet they can kill me. So is that a problem of DK having too much damage, or a problem of DK having better survivability? Idk. It's hard to make a balanced observation without taking into account of all PvP scenarios.

Urzigurumash

Yes balanced

I totally agree about NBs, it's only recently they've became a true threat, for years to me they were more of a force out there that checked you for not running enough Impen, letting yourself run out of resources, not paying attention, etc. When you squared up with them they'd melt if they didn't flee. Now they can just semi-afk facetank smashing Concealed Weapon and beat 3/6 classes with little difficulty.

But DK has always been facetanking, some survivability gained in Hybridization by Coag being buffed by Minor Brutality - and also as I've described ad nauseum being able to use Corrosive with an instant spammable rather than the cast time D Swing - but the class has really gained nothing in survivability relative to other classes - a notch below Necro, a notch above Warden - same as it's been since these classes were released.

My view as a retired Day 1 DK is that it's mostly newfound sustain and speed which overpowers the class - we always had lots of defense and lots of damage - but my views are quaint and biased.

Short of it is the best solution is to do what should've been done to MagSorc 5 years ago - spin them off into their own PvP mode, maybe toss Warden in there too.

olsborg

Yes balanced

I think we should nerf nb and buff dk, makes perfect sense rly.

Ren_TheRedFox

Yes balanced

OK that death recap looks busted but to be fair ..... if that nb is revealed they will probably die pretty quickly .... they are built for insanely high damage but probably zero resistances which is why they are hitting so hard .... if someone say uses a tanky set and a damage set they won't hit that hard so it's just a matter of sets tbh.... and also if we start talking about nerfing busted skills ... I think we should start with corrosive

Also fyi I'm not a big fan nbs don't like the sneak and damage but they're originally built for damage so no hard feelings on that one

Vaqual

No not balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I fully agree with this, for the reasons that were mentioned. Additionally, I think that no skill should be so integral that it becomes irreplaceable, simply because that is boring.

PhoenixGrey

Yes balanced

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Assassin’s Will is fine. NB does need its dmg modifiers tuned down though. Class is basically loaded with so many stat modifiers that it can kill you with just Concealed Weapon spam.

Saying AW is fine but the modifiers need adjusting is the wrong way to look at it. If we're only talking PvP then, sure, I suppose they are equally valid points of view.

But if you consider PvE in your overall view of the class then you realize that PvPblade needs to be weakened in a way that doesn't lower its overall damage.

AW needs to be nerfed so that other parts of its kit can be buffed. A net positive needs to be achieved while lessening the burst. Adjusting the modifiers would just exacerbate the PvE problem and create a deeper hole to climb out of. Adjusting AW would instantly fix PvPblade and leave us at a decent starting place for helping with PvE.

I would rather do the opposite which is what class identity is all about. Nerfing AW will mean NB is no longer a burst class and you have a nb wearing the same proc sets

This is exactly what happened to sorc when its core skills like streak and wards were nerfed and now the class cant do anything without 3 proc sets. What happened to sorc was primarily the fault of several sorc mains who dont really play the class anymore but still thought they were overbuffed and i seeing the same playing out for NB except its the entire forum screaming for nerfs meanwhile they continue wearing AFK proc sets and think they are good.

fred4

Yes balanced

StaticWave wrote: »

NB has never been a problem for me and other competent players up until hybridization and the buff to Healthy Offering.

NB or specifically my spec, a pure magblade, is the strongest it has been in a long time, maybe ever, after languishing for years. The burst heal is great, no question. Haven't sorcs been clamouring for the same thing? The funny thing is that the burst heal supports brawling playstyles. Perhaps "enables" is the better word. As a possibly more traditional damage-evasion-focused nightblade, or sorc, a lack of healing strength is frustrating to play, but doesn't kill you like it perhaps would another class. It just makes you more circumspect, leaning more heavily on Cloak, speed, Shadow Image, and Streak, ultimately making it a more frustrating fight for both the NB / sorc, who knows when to disengage, and their opponent(s).

I find it odd how we've arrived here. Things were taken away that supported NBs traditional playstyle in favor of a more powerful and generic one. Cloak used to purge DOTs, then it used to ignore them, but NB lacked a class burst heal. Now you take the damage and DOTs last 20 seconds. You basically only have the heal to deal with that and it knocks you out of cloak. On balance I'm not complaining, but I did want to point out NB needs their heal now more than in some previous patches. So, possibly, does sorc. Sorc - or at least my sorc - needs to disengage harder when it's being pressured, but then again I'm a nightblade main, more comfortable with it, and currently running Curse Eater on my NB back bar and not on my sorc. I find playing without a purge a problem on both classes.