This specific addon and cheating

Sylvermynx

RaikaNA wrote: »

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karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.

Well, I can't play Skyrim without mods either (and nor can I play ESO without - but none of the 60+ mods I use here have anything to do with combat or pvp).

It's a whole other thing when talking combat and pvp.

Gaeliannas

FluffWit wrote: »

The old MIATs mod got banned because it warned people when they were about to get hit with Snipe.

This should obviously get the same treatment.

It didn't get banned, ZOS realized their mistake and adjusted the API. And BTW, I just tested this feature of Miats, and it requires you first add someone to your KOS/COOL system. So it doesn't just let you know everyone around you who is hidden, you have to have specifically added them, the guy who made the video failed to mention that bit, or I missed it.

I would also guess, that it somehow leverages some part of the API that scans for friends/guildmates/etc.. around you. So changing this one would probably break a decent portion of the AddOns out there that also use that API in PVE.

Mythgard1967

karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

No; but they have macros that you code into hotkeys to achieve some of the very same things.

proprio.meb16_ESO

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

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proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

Addons use zos code, theyre not 3rd party programs.

Preliminary disclaimer: I'm not an addon programmer and do not even use addons of any type, period, so I'm not able to speak about addons with any kind of knowledge or experience.

However, that said, the statement above strikes me as being inaccurate and misleading. My understanding of that argument is that addons use the API which ZOS provides, therefore they can only request and receive data which ZOS allows, and must do so using the API function calls (or whatever) that ZOS provides.

To go from that basic fact to the conclusion that "theyre not 3rd party programs" and they "use zos code" completely ignores any programming which the authors of the addons have done. It is akin to saying that a third-party Windows application that is able to work in the Windows OS environment is Microsoft code and not a third-party application simply because it must use the Windows API which Microsoft provides. That seems like a huge slap in the face to the third-party programmers who apply their own creative logic and programming know-how toward creating their applications.

Just because an addon must use the API which is provided by ZOS, that does not make the addon "zos code" which is "not 3rd party."

Lets see if i can be more clear then mate... im a senior developer irl and ive peeked and played a little with lua scripts for eso (modified a few to better suits me).

An addon is made of calls to zos APIs and basic lua code executed by the game client, which has a builtin lua engine (that is not used just for handling addons). A 3rd party program is an executable messing with the game itself in another way, usually not endorsed nor furnished by game developers.

The word here is not "3rd party", its "program". An addon is not a program, its one or more text scripts written in lua language (differently from an executable written with MS SDK or any other thing producing an exe). You cannot run it, it "lives" only inside the game client, and it cannot do anything beside what the game client allows.
Just go in your addons folder and open one of the .lua scripts with a text editor, and you can check the code for yourself.

Does it require skill to code an addon or an executable? Of course yes, never said the contrary and, as a developer myself, would never dare say it 😄

Bearing that in mind read my post again. Theres no way an addon can be blacklisted as it's just a bunch of calls to zos APIs. The only thing you can do is insist asking for zos to actually change those APIs.

OnnuK

From these discussions I understand that this addon is still working...so, what should we do? Should we also use this addon against them? I am not a hardcore PvP'er but do not want this disadvantage from beginning...

Cuddlypuff

Miats is not going to affect the average Toxic Barrage enjoyer hiding inside faction stacks. I personally haven't even used the KOS/COOL feature as there isn't a single bomber or ganker scary enough to warrant it. If you're not already a feared ganker the chances of you being detected by Miats is low, most likely cloak is just too buggy a skill to crutch on.

proprio.meb16_ESO

Apart from complaining here i think you cannot do anything else

kieso

All add ons should be removed as they also can trivialize pve mechanics. Wow has the same issue.

Zos just needs to up its ui customization game to compensate.

proprio.meb16_ESO

This game is built around addons, theyve been stripped from console due to legal reasons, not viceversa.
Asking to remove them is asking for a different game.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

It's fine if everyone gets the same system - end of discussion.

(Zos has to make something similiar to this in base game for all or just remove it)

Marginis

RaikaNA wrote: »

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karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.

I don't think that logic follows. Add-ons are not the same as mods. Mods can add content and revamp large swaths of the game, whereas add-ons mostly just add shortcuts and UI elements, which don't do much to keep a game fresh per se. And this is ignoring the fact that there are... just... so many games that are doing quite well, and don't have any mods or add-ons to speak of.

Not to say I think add-ons aren't great, but the logic here is a bit flawed.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

I could not play pvp without add-ons, specifically Papa Crown because ZOS has yet to realize that some players are sight impaired. I can see but the text on the game and the Crown for group in pvp is way too small. Yes, I have it set for the largest font size but that only affects the chat box.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Worst thing about this addon is that it gives everyone an excuse every time they die. Must have been Miats...

RaikaNA

Marginis wrote: »

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RaikaNA wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.

I don't think that logic follows. Add-ons are not the same as mods. Mods can add content and revamp large swaths of the game, whereas add-ons mostly just add shortcuts and UI elements, which don't do much to keep a game fresh per se. And this is ignoring the fact that there are... just... so many games that are doing quite well, and don't have any mods or add-ons to speak of.

Not to say I think add-ons aren't great, but the logic here is a bit flawed.

Unfortunately, ESO is not a perfect game.. it's lacking a lot of features that addon creators add-in to help us. Can you imagine doing your daily crafting writs without having Dolgubon's Lazy Writ Crafter installed? It would take forever to do.

EozZoe1989

i think if they dont want certain addones then just tell people they can not use them anymore and or go to the webpage and buy it off them so they can delete the ones they dont want lol

SerafinaWaterstar

And yet, us console plebs manage to play quite happily without them. 🙂

RaikaNA

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

And yet, us console plebs manage to play quite happily without them. 🙂

I notice more console players are starting to migrate to PC

Baertram

The problem here is that ZOS does not nerf this only for PVP/Ava but in total and this would make addons in non pvp non functional too where they would make sense. But I agree that these should be disabled during Pvp and I also thought that especially the block feature and hidden detection were not possible anymore by the api since years? Seems it got changed again then and thus is functional again...which is bad imho.

Miats was always an addon which provides benefits during pvp play and should have been disabled.

And this game needs addons, definately. Maybe not for your game play but there are hundreds of great addons outside of pvp which are fun, help with guilds management, housing, and so on. Just because you do not need it you should not say they are off no use! That's an ignorant way.

ZOs should just disable them in pvp so all got the same data and info. As pvp always is a matter of whine and virtual comparison, so the base should be equal for all.

Marginis

RaikaNA wrote: »

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Marginis wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.

I don't think that logic follows. Add-ons are not the same as mods. Mods can add content and revamp large swaths of the game, whereas add-ons mostly just add shortcuts and UI elements, which don't do much to keep a game fresh per se. And this is ignoring the fact that there are... just... so many games that are doing quite well, and don't have any mods or add-ons to speak of.

Not to say I think add-ons aren't great, but the logic here is a bit flawed.

Unfortunately, ESO is not a perfect game.. it's lacking a lot of features that addon creators add-in to help us. Can you imagine doing your daily crafting writs without having Dolgubon's Lazy Writ Crafter installed? It would take forever to do.

I have ESO on both PC and console. I don't have to imagine. And it's just as quick to do all my master writs on console as it is on PC. Only real difference, if anything, is load times.

robpr

Detection part didn't worked for years now. I used Miat's only for the excellent Cyro overlay it provides where you can see at a glance what keep is attacked and with how many sieges without the need of opening the map. If the detection function is back it should be removed, I agree.

Sarannah

In my opinion all add-ons are cheats. As they allow players to do things faster, and with paying less attention, than someone who does not use add-ons.

Add-on users can swap all their gear with one button, add-on users have nodes and treasure chest spots shown to them, add-on users are warned about incoming attacks they are unable to see themselves, add-on users are shown skyshard locations, etc. All giving an unfair advantage, no matter how small that advantage is.

But this is just my opinion, which most players will probably disagree with. And that is ok!

PS: Atleast in PvP all add-ons should be disabled for a fair game. It might even help with some server load, as players would be able to perform tasks slower.
PPS: Quite a few users who use add-ons, do not even know what those add-ons are doing. This always cracks me up! (Example: Bug reports about being unable to open anniversary boxes.)

Marginis

Sarannah wrote: »

In my opinion all add-ons are cheats. As they allow players to do things faster, and with paying less attention, than someone who does not use add-ons.

Add-on users can swap all their gear with one button, add-on users have nodes and treasure chest spots shown to them, add-on users are warned about incoming attacks they are unable to see themselves, add-on users are shown skyshard locations, etc. All giving an unfair advantage, no matter how small that advantage is.

But this is just my opinion, which most players will probably disagree with. And that is ok!

PS: Atleast in PvP all add-ons should be disabled for a fair game. It might even help with some server load, as players would be able to perform tasks slower.
PPS: Quite a few users who use add-ons, do not even know what those add-ons are doing. This always cracks me up! (Example: Bug reports about being unable to open anniversary boxes.)

Of note, a lot of add-ons have been added into the game over time. ZoS saw a lot of the gear switching add-ons and introduced loadouts. They did the same with chat channel colors, researching trait icons, and skyshard map icons, among other things. So some add-ons are actually just quality of life improvements that players want and ZoS didn't get to right away.

Lumenn

Sarannah wrote: »

In my opinion all add-ons are cheats. As they allow players to do things faster, and with paying less attention, than someone who does not use add-ons.

Add-on users can swap all their gear with one button, add-on users have nodes and treasure chest spots shown to them, add-on users are warned about incoming attacks they are unable to see themselves, add-on users are shown skyshard locations, etc. All giving an unfair advantage, no matter how small that advantage is.

But this is just my opinion, which most players will probably disagree with. And that is ok!

PS: Atleast in PvP all add-ons should be disabled for a fair game. It might even help with some server load, as players would be able to perform tasks slower.
PPS: Quite a few users who use add-ons, do not even know what those add-ons are doing. This always cracks me up! (Example: Bug reports about being unable to open anniversary boxes.)

You're not alone. Having started with EQ when it came out (yeah, I guess I'm old) I tend to think the same. All add ons are cheats in an mmo. A SINGLE player game, after you beat it, cheat, mod, do whatever but online shouldn't have them. In the last year I actually gave WOW a try(late to the game) but I couldn't believe it. They might as well have one play the game for them.

Unfortunately I don't know how much work/cost would go into Zos ensuring and monitoring any outside programs running. Bot farmers have broken console, I can't imagine how much work Zos would have to use on PC, and if it would even be effective. It might even make many PC players leave. I play both, and it can certainly easier on PC, but I mainly stay on console.

Rataroto

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

There's a difference between CHEESE and CHEAT.

Heavy attack builds are cheesy as all hell yes, but MIATs literally gives you information you wouldn't have without the addon.

Gaeliannas

Rataroto wrote: »

Heavy attack builds are cheesy as all hell yes, but MIATs literally gives you information you wouldn't have without the addon.

You literally just described almost every addon available, that is the entire point of them and why ZOS built an API for them. Every single feature offered by an addon, is something ZOS didn't want to spend time to code themselves, which is why they simply built an API and left it up to us. Some addons however, became so popular that ZOS did eventually build them into the game (and I hope they paid the original authors something, but doubt it).

RaikaNA

Rataroto wrote: »

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RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

There's a difference between CHEESE and CHEAT.

Heavy attack builds are cheesy as all hell yes, but MIATs literally gives you information you wouldn't have without the addon.

I recant my cheese comment... The proper words are exploited builds... because that's exactly what it is.. Instead of contacting eso.. telling them what sets they're running and explaining to the developers that it's overperforming they go in cyrodiil.. or worst... go in IC and take an advantage of an exploit.

Anyhow since this thread got started I've tried out Miats... not that impressed, but I guess I'm not using all of the features that the addon provides.. I don't consider this addon a cheat.. It's not a third-party application like the cheat engine that people were using several years ago.. remember this?

https://youtu.be/HkFChvpYHSI

This is a cheat that was used by third-party software (Cheat engine)... not Miats.

LesserCircle

I see many good and valid points about this but it all comes to one thing. If I'm cloaked and you didn't use any skill or potion to detect me you shouldn't know I'm there. It's unfair and I have no counter to it.

InvitationNotFound

So this is the monthly "addons are cheats and everything that kills me is also a cheat" thread? /wave Hi!

The API has been adjusted due to Miats. The current state is considered okay by ZOS, otherwise they would have changed more. You may complain of course, but the amount of the word "cheat" in this thread is just a joke...

EF321

Marginis wrote: »

so many games that are doing quite well, and don't have any mods or add-ons to speak of.

Not to say I think add-ons aren't great, but the logic here is a bit flawed.

Many games started as mods. Counter-strike, PUBG, Team Fortress to name a few known titles.

As for ESO, I wouldn't even buy the game if it was not for addons. I installed minimap on day 2 of free week, and had 7 more addons days later, which finally made game playable and I bought it.


Game being officially moddable with SDK/API provided by devs is always a huge plus.

Ilumia

RaikaNA wrote: »

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karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.

Agreed, i can't play skyrim without mods either, and I am completely sure that if all mods on eso were disabled, I'd give stop playing completely.

That said, I can't possibly believe it is zos intention to led an addon detect these stealth things in pvp.