This specific addon and cheating

LesserCircle

I saw this video yesterday and now everything makes sense to me, I'm a nightblade and sometimes I come close to someone (using cloak) who was just standing and they will hold block for no reason or start looking for me. This addon tells you when someone is around you even if they're hidden and it should be banned. Here's a video by Dr Ganknstein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt7pNxiPDJI

BlossomDead

As I've said multiple times before, add-ons in PvP must be disallowed. Only standard UI permitted.

Tommy_The_Gun

As far as I am aware this feature of this addon was a subject of a... lets just say a "very hot debate" in the past - which resulted in ZOS changing addon api so that certain information were not passed to the client so the addons like this would not allow to cheat. It is possible that when ZOS was trying to somehow increase performance - they did some "under the hood" changes and accidentally made a cheat addon like this working again

proprio.meb16_ESO

This is from March 2020: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/516767/shouldnt-this-be-considered-cheating

So i suppose it wont be addressed anytime soon

emilyhyoyeon

A couple months ago I was farming sewer scamps, basically just hiding in a corner in one room waiting for the spawn. Pretty sure this happened to me because I was so far in a corner that I wouldn't show up at all normally, and I wasn't moving.

But I do wanna say that, especially if you're coming in on someone on purpose, they might have a detect potion active. When I'm in Cyrodiil I usually pop my detect potions on cooldown. But if it's obvious they don't actually know where you are like you mention in the OP, yeah I'd be suspicious

EdmondDontes

I've always felt using Miats was cheating. It does other things like gives a total number of players in the area, and will tell the user of the add on when entire raids are stealthed nearby. It's effectively "radar" and is unethical at the very least. I believe this add on falls squarely into the cheating category, and I've always felt that way.

When this issue originally came up I watched Miats video about it. His defense of his add on doing these kinds of things was, and I'm quoting, "It's not cheating if ZOS lets it work". Yes, Miat essentially justified what I consider cheating by claiming he gets away with it, so it can't be cheating. I guess if you steal a candy bar from the super market and get away with it you aren't actually stealing anything either.

PvP_Exploiter

This hasn't worked in Miats for a very long time.

Not the first time this year it has been brought up and it's not even how the add-on functions...

EdmondDontes

PvP_Exploiter wrote: »

This hasn't worked in Miats for a very long time.

Not the first time this year it has been brought up and it's not even how the add-on functions...

Um, yes, these features of Miats are still totally functional.

ZOS did stop the majority of the "cheat" features of Miats, but it absolutely still works effectively as a radar to locate stealthed players, and it absolutely still gives a total player count for all factions in proximity.

This add on should be disabled entirely. The first nerf it got was not sufficient.

BlossomDead

And do take into account this is a published add-on. Now, I imagine those with the most 'creative' ideas aren't made quite so public, which is why a total ban in PvP is warranted, as ZOS cannot effectively whitelist specific add-ons due to having no way of properly auditing and authenticating them in the first place.

proprio.meb16_ESO

Addons use zos code, theyre not 3rd party programs. All of the API are endorsed by zos until and unless they patch them in response to exploits (as someone suggested, some API could be modified to cease working in pvp area).

On zos side theres nothing as a list of good/bad addons.. its not how it works. An addon itself cannot be "banned".

LesserCircle

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

Addons use zos code, theyre not 3rd party programs. All of the API are endorsed by zos until and unless they patch them in response to exploits (as someone suggested, some API could be modified to cease working in pvp area).

On zos side theres nothing as a list of good/bad addons.. its not how it works. An addon itself cannot be "banned".

This is true, I just expect them to change the API or a simple message telling us their position about it.

danno8

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

Addons use zos code, theyre not 3rd party programs. All of the API are endorsed by zos until and unless they patch them in response to exploits (as someone suggested, some API could be modified to cease working in pvp area).

On zos side theres nothing as a list of good/bad addons.. its not how it works. An addon itself cannot be "banned".

Agreed. If ZoS whished it they can simply no longer broadcast the "X has targeted Y" functionality to LUA and it would no longer work.

Also, I'm pretty sure you need to add specific players to your "list" of tracked individuals to get that "alarm" sound in the video, but I haven't PvP'd in nearly a year so I can't be sure.

Originally the addon would allow you to see when you were being targeted with a cast time spell or skill, like Snipe or a heavy attack, but that is no longer broadcast to LUA. Personally this does feel like information that is not simply reorganized or presented in a different, more efficient way like most addons provide but rather information that is only attainable through the use of the addon and is obviously very beneficial.

If I were ZoS I would probably remove that particular functionality from LUA.

jaws343

And people wonder why there are those of us on console who are vehemently opposed to any kind of cross-play with PC whatsoever.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

The annoying thing about Miat's is that it does indeed give a sound or visual notification to the player when the person is going to be attacked by a certain skill and it even detects it from sneak.

I've seen multiple people start either roll dodging (with no one else around) or simply turning around and attacking me out of the blue too (No detection potion used as I've done no prior attacks).

Oh it also tells you when you are in an AOE...*shakes head*

I don't think PvP needs this type of addon which clearly gives and advantage to the user vis a vis someone who does not have it.

Should it be shut down completely? I think so, yes.

If our producer wants to implement a watered down system of 'combat notifications', why not..at least everyone would be on the same page.

ArchangelIsraphel

That explains why I've been getting blown out of stealth for no reason I've been having people literally run AT my NB when he should not be in detection range or seen and kill him while tucked away in a corner.

LesserCircle

jaws343 wrote: »

And people wonder why there are those of us on console who are vehemently opposed to any kind of cross-play with PC whatsoever.

As a PC player I agree with you so much, unless we have the same tools available we should never get crossplay.

EF321

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

That explains why I've been getting blown out of stealth for no reason I've been having people literally run AT my NB when he should not be in detection range or seen and kill him while tucked away in a corner.

I have two characters that that run Sentry, one occasionally, one as it's main cyro build. If I have it on, I proc it on cooldown.

Marginis

Listen, this is just an unofficial Nightblade nerf - this is just how ZoS intends it, considering their love for NB nerfs.

Joking aside, yeah this is 100% cheating and needs to be ended. I mean, wallhacks are cheating in Call of Duty, why would this not be considered cheating in ESO?

RaikaNA

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

jaws343

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

That isn't a cheat... You also aren't meant to farm tel var unobstructed.

RaikaNA

jaws343 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

That isn't a cheat... You also aren't meant to farm tel var unobstructed.

I'm sorry but it is cheating This kind of cheat also causes inflation in the marketplace for Hakeijo... Check out the prices for it now... who wants to go in IC just to be farmed by cheaters using this kind of cheat builds?

Jayman1000

RaikaNA wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

That isn't a cheat... You also aren't meant to farm tel var unobstructed.

I'm sorry but it is cheating This kind of cheat also causes inflation in the marketplace for Hakeijo... Check out the prices for it now... who wants to go in IC just to be farmed by cheaters using this kind of cheat builds?

Absolutely not cheating. That is the risk you take when you choose a squishy build. Learn to deal with it, buff up your survival. Maybe get some more HP?f

Jayman1000

LesserCircle wrote: »

I saw this video yesterday and now everything makes sense to me, I'm a nightblade and sometimes I come close to someone (using cloak) who was just standing and they will hold block for no reason or start looking for me. This addon tells you when someone is around you even if they're hidden and it should be banned. Here's a video by Dr Ganknstein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt7pNxiPDJI

It shouldn't be allowed, I completely agree. It destroys the point of stealth, that cannot be the devs intention on how stealth should work...

RaikaNA

Jayman1000 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

That isn't a cheat... You also aren't meant to farm tel var unobstructed.

I'm sorry but it is cheating This kind of cheat also causes inflation in the marketplace for Hakeijo... Check out the prices for it now... who wants to go in IC just to be farmed by cheaters using this kind of cheat builds?

Absolutely not cheating. That is the risk you take when you choose a squishy build. Learn to deal with it, buff up your survival. Maybe get some more HP?f

Thank you so much for your wonderful wealth of knowledge on how to not get killed by cheating builds... /s.. Oh and I don't have squishy builds... My resistance is 25k+ fully buffed up.. I have 29k HP... I repeat... NO heavy attack should ever do this much damage... Heavy attacks aren't ultimates.

Jayman1000

RaikaNA wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I have mixed feelings about Miats.. first off there are some cheating builds out there that people are taking advantage of.. even to this day.... yes I'm talking about the heavy attack cheat builds that haven't been dealt with by ZOS... People are stealthing up, using Blood Frenzy to increase their weapon/spell damage... and just heavy attacks unexpecting people killing them instantly.

If Miats can help me to detect these people who are using these cheese builds.. especially in IC where people are farming for telvar... I don't consider it cheating.

For those who don't know what the heavy attack cheating builds look like... check this video out
https://youtu.be/HGWrCOIoIrY

Once you watch this video.. you may change your perspective... I feel that Miats helps fight against these types of builds by alerting the player to potentials cheaters.

That isn't a cheat... You also aren't meant to farm tel var unobstructed.

I'm sorry but it is cheating This kind of cheat also causes inflation in the marketplace for Hakeijo... Check out the prices for it now... who wants to go in IC just to be farmed by cheaters using this kind of cheat builds?

Absolutely not cheating. That is the risk you take when you choose a squishy build. Learn to deal with it, buff up your survival. Maybe get some more HP?f

Thank you so much for your wonderful wealth of knowledge on how to not get killed by cheating builds... /s.. Oh and I don't have squishy builds... My resistance is 25k+ fully buffed up.. I have 29k HP... I repeat... NO heavy attack should ever do this much damage... Heavy attacks aren't ultimates.

It's not a cheating build, you need to stop calling it that. I get that you think that it is too powerful and of course that can always be debated as with a lot of other stuff in this game, I personally do not think it is. And you can absolutely make a build that can survive that kind of damage, so you can just go make such a build. Resistance and hp is not the only damage mitigation you know.

You want to be able to run around out in the open fully exposed expecting that these hard hitters wont target you. Of course they will.

woe

Using buffs, knowledge and stacking things to make someone get clapped isn't cheating. It's literally a smart use of what's given to you and publicly available in the game. It doesn't even come down to "clever use of game mechanics" because it's just stacking things and then firing a heavy off.

SeaGtGruff

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

Addons use zos code, theyre not 3rd party programs.

Preliminary disclaimer: I'm not an addon programmer and do not even use addons of any type, period, so I'm not able to speak about addons with any kind of knowledge or experience.

However, that said, the statement above strikes me as being inaccurate and misleading. My understanding of that argument is that addons use the API which ZOS provides, therefore they can only request and receive data which ZOS allows, and must do so using the API function calls (or whatever) that ZOS provides.

To go from that basic fact to the conclusion that "theyre not 3rd party programs" and they "use zos code" completely ignores any programming which the authors of the addons have done. It is akin to saying that a third-party Windows application that is able to work in the Windows OS environment is Microsoft code and not a third-party application simply because it must use the Windows API which Microsoft provides. That seems like a huge slap in the face to the third-party programmers who apply their own creative logic and programming know-how toward creating their applications.

Just because an addon must use the API which is provided by ZOS, that does not make the addon "zos code" which is "not 3rd party."

FluffWit

The old MIATs mod got banned because it warned people when they were about to get hit with Snipe.

This should obviously get the same treatment.

Kory

BlossomDead wrote: »

As I've said multiple times before, add-ons in PvP must be disallowed. Only standard UI permitted.

Agreed. Certain add ons should be filtered through PvP zones

karekiz

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

RaikaNA

karekiz wrote: »

Games shouldn't need Addons. FF14 doesn't and its great.

Yet without addons, the game becomes dull and boring. I can't play Skyrim without mods.