Has ESO finally lost its allure?

peacenote

I have so much to say on this topic...

sarahthes wrote: »

Some of us want our level 3 Godslayers. All my Godslayers are on the same character anyway, might as well spread around the love a bit.

Sigh. I'm going to keep saying it as long as I'm here. The majority of people who are unhappy with the AwA implementation would have been completely fine with you getting your level 3 Godslayers. All other rewards have been account wide for a LONG time and most people who cannot stand that in a game have long since left. Titles could have been made account wide, like dyes, at the same time that dyes were made account wide. This is not a good justification for gutting character progression and historical data. In fact, while I see both sides of the title thing, I personally would have gladly supported account wide titles while retaining character specific achievements. The latter was way more important to me than the former.

The fact that titles were so important to some is an indication of a different issue - lack of meaningful rewards, especially for hard, time-consuming content. I hope this issue gets some attention but it's a whole other ballgame. And for roleplayers, a simple sorting mechanism or other indicator to know whether a character earned a title would likely have sufficed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Clearly, they didnt go that way, and certainly I wish they would have, but that ship has sailed.

Oreyn, I always find your views to be very insightful with good perspectives, and I respect your stance on AwA. However I will say I think any sentiments like "the ship has sailed" lend themselves to an implied thought process of "ok, it's done, let's move on" and to that I disagree. We may have lost the battle but we don't need to lose the war. There are more ships. Many people don't follow PTS and are just discovering what this change means to them, and ZOS hearing those additional voices now, to possibly help with better decision-making in the future, is much better than moving on with a shrug. I hope the discussions illustrating the fact that they didn't revisit and make more paying customers happy go on for a long, long while.. because we all lose when that gets swept under the rug. You may be happy with the compromise this time, but the next one might be game breaking for you.

ADarklore wrote: »

In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore.... So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.

My friend, I fear you could not be more wrong here. I say fear because despite this latest debacle I still don't wish the downfall of the game I have enjoyed for almost a decade. But this is why I think you're off the mark:

1. People have very long memories, and even if the abbreviation AwA ceases to be raised in every other forum thread, like it is now... the impression of a large percentage of the community (even those who are pro or ambivalent to the current implementation) that ZOS didn't listen or respond will remain in collective memory. It will be simplified and repeated over and over by those who are victims of that human condition - hope. The ones who don't outright leave but continue to hope that ZOS didn't understand the impact of their actions and will continue to raise the issue, hoping to still, somehow be heard. The open letter about Bosmers was started in February of 2019, and that was about a passive! AwA impacted character histories going back eight years and decimated many play styles. The only way we won't be talking about this for years to come is if everyone does up and leave, which will ultimately impact the longevity of the game.
2. There is a term called a whale. These are people who make large purchases in the Crown Store, because it's their main hobby and they can afford to do so. You can't become a whale as a transient player. Many people are aware they are whales and even admit to it on the forums, often proudly. You don't spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars in the Crown Store if you expect to quit after a month. Who cares about buying Crown Crates until you get an apex mount unless you play to ride it and display it for many months to come?? If you scan through the forums, many long time players refuse to subscribe and there are guides on how to best leverage free ESO+ weekends. Removing the craft bag from the subscription and/or adding it as a one-time Crown Store purchase is one of the weekly suggestions around these parts. Additionally, because of the gold/Crown exchange, with dedication one can make gold in game to access purchasable content. So while I would agree that ESO+ is not the primary money maker for ZOS, I completely disagree that long term players are subscribers and short term players buy Crown Store things. I think a lot of long time players carefully curated MANY characters, and bought skins and costumes and motifs and mounts in the game to make each of those characters special, and a lot of those whales will either quit altogether or stop this practice because... what is the point now? Long-term players are extremely important to ESO, not only from this perspective but, because of the horrible tutorials and large gap between floor and ceiling, they are key to transitioning new players into "middle term players" that step foot in end game and/or group content. It's extremely short sighted to dismiss long-term players, although I'll grant you that to maximize profits ZOS would do well to both retain long term players and entice new players.

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I've been playing since Beta and lurked on the forums since then and we heard the same exact thing - "this could damage the game in more ways than anyone could have ever imagined" - when One Tamriel launched here on the forums. There were endless quitting threads, cancelling sub threads, people railing on and on and on about lost "feelings of character progression" because they could no longer solo ROFLStomp world bosses in starter zones and we all know many years later that One Tamriel was ultimately a solid move for the game, our own progression, and its longevity. AWA will be the same thing in the end and like One Tamriel is here to say - ZoS outright stated this just like they said for One Tamriel. Unlike One Tamriel AWA is also something the community has been repeatedly asked for since launch so I'm frankly quite happy that we finally have it. Next since we have AWA ZoS should implement Steam Achievements to capitalize on the forward momentum.

Ah, but there's a really big philosophical difference between AwA and One Tamriel. One that caused players such as myself to be in full support of One Tamriel and against -- not account wide achievements -- but this specific destructive implementation of AwA. And that difference is.... One Tamriel introduced CHOICE. It acknowledged a growing game, and addressed a need for new players to be able to jump in and experience it with their friends. It did not remove the ability for someone to follow the zones in original order and stay within their faction or only learn the recipes for their faction... it simply allowed people to play a different way, if they so chose. One Tamriel also opened up different areas and allowed new players to access more content than they could have previously. Ultimately it was an addition, encouraging "play the way you want" and also supporting re-playability because you could choose to go a different way for your next characters.

In contrast, this version of AwA removed a pretty significant choice for players. Not only that, there were MMO standards for AwA done well which were NOT followed in this implementation, so standing on the "repeatedly asked for" hill is a bit flawed because so many people expected something different than what they got. We didn't get industry standard AwA. We got a quick and dirty one.

And.. anyone who was upset that they couldn't ROFLStomp world bosses can now come back and voice their opinions against increasing Overland difficulty, as due to power creep we're pretty much back to that state. It just took a little while.

It is true - there will always be "I quit" threads, "this will ruin the game" threads, etc. etc. Mostly they are hyberbole and basically incorrect, not only because people tend to have narrow perspectives but because the game isn't going to just up and die - it will slowly decline. Just like policy changes with one country leader often don't reveal impacts until the next one has taken over, and then the current leader gets incorrectly attributed with the positive or negative fallout. Change takes time, good or bad. To truly evaluate whether broad changes are likely to be better or worse for a product that thrives with more customers... questions like "Is this an inclusive or exclusive change? Will this add exciting options or limit choices? Will this bring players together or cause a divide?" are important to consider and are the best indicators for whether a change will likely be good for the long term outlook of the game, despite initial resistance. The AwA implementation was not inclusive, caused a huge divide in the community, and limited play style options, as well as introduced a lot of bugs and immersion issues. The game won't immediately die but it sure wasn't an inclusive decision. One Tamriel, while it did alienate some of the hardcore players, was at its core about bringing people together and providing options. And that makes a world of difference.

Merlin13KAGL

tmbrinks wrote: »

show previous quotes

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

The total storage space for all the achievements in the game is likely under 5 TB of data (given my conversation with an add-on creator who looked into ZoS's storage of achievements and a projection of the number of players in the game).

If a billion dollar company can't manage a 5 TB database in a world of Petabytes of data, then this game is as good as cooked.

If they were actually doing it for performance improvements they would have shouted that from the mountains at the reveal. It was only added in as a footnote in the Q&A when they knew they had opened a can of worms, so they went back to their favorite response that's been said a dozen times, with no noticeable improvement in performance as of yet.

• This should have been an addition, not a replacement.
• Performance fix should never have been required. The game could load in the achievements, account wide or otherwise, on log in. They do not need to be checked again unless an achievement generating event takes place. If these were truly affecting load screen times, other than the initial one, they were checking far more often than necessary (poorly coded.)
• At a minimum, a small app could have been created (by ZoS - it shouldn't be addon developers' job to save ZoS from themselves.) allowing people to download and continue to track achievements per character if they wanted to. This could occur client side (requiring zero server resources other than a message on completion) with final 'verdict' occurring at the server to prevent someone trying to hack themselves to completion.
• This could have easily been an opt in/opt out addition. Opt out if you want those "performance increases." (See above) Opt in if you want individual tracking and don't mind waiting a few extra seconds for your characters to land. If cost is a factor - which given the expense of storage vs their income, a required crown purchase would have more than covered the expense for years to come. Or, better yet, had they stayed with sub, as many of us asked them to, cost of operation would never have been an issue, as people would be willing to pay.
• It will always be about bottom line, and that's the sad truth. Trying to justify it as QoL in its butcherous form just adds insult to injury.
• I'd rather they say what they're doing when they do it, and own the real reasons without concern to the actual player feedback vs trying to sugar coat it into something that it's very clear it is not.
• It's one more example of something that keeps a good game from ever becoming great. Disappointing, yet again.

peacenote

I have so much to say on this topic...

sarahthes wrote: »

Some of us want our level 3 Godslayers. All my Godslayers are on the same character anyway, might as well spread around the love a bit.

Sigh. I'm going to keep saying it as long as I'm here. The majority of people who are unhappy with the AwA implementation would have been completely fine with you getting your level 3 Godslayers. All other rewards have been account wide for a LONG time and most people who cannot stand that in a game have long since left. Titles could have been made account wide, like dyes, at the same time that dyes were made account wide. This is not a good justification for gutting character progression and historical data. In fact, while I see both sides of the title thing, I personally would have gladly supported account wide titles while retaining character specific achievements. The latter was way more important to me than the former.

The fact that titles were so important to some is an indication of a different issue - lack of meaningful rewards, especially for hard, consuming content. I hope this issue gets some attention but it's a whole other ballgame. And for roleplayers, a simply sorting mechanism or other indicator to know whether a character earned a title would likely have sufficed.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Clearly, they didnt go that way, and certainly I wish they would have, but that ship has sailed.

Oreyn, I always find your views to be very insightful with good perspectives, and I respect your stance on AwA. However I will say I think any sentiments like "the ship has sailed" lend themselves to an implied thought process of "ok, it's done, let's move on" and to that I disagree. We may have lost the battle but we don't need to lose the war. There are more ships. Many people don't follow PTS and are just discovering what this change means to them, and ZOS hearing those additional voices now, to possibly help with better decision-making in the future, is much better than moving on with a shrug. I hope the discussions illustrating the fact that they didn't revisit and make more paying customers happy goes on for a long, long while.. because we all lose when that gets swept under the rug. You may be happy with the compromise this time, but the next one might be game breaking for you.

ADarklore wrote: »

In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore.... So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.

My friend, I fear you could not be more wrong here. I say fear because despite this latest debacle I still don't wish the downfall of the game I have enjoyed for almost a decade. But this is why I think you're off the mark:

1. People have very long memories, and even if the abbreviation AwA ceases to be raised in every other forum thread, like it is now... the impression of a large percentage of the community (even those who are pro or ambivalent to the current implementation) that ZOS didn't listen or respond will remain in collective memory. It will be simplified and repeated over and over by those who are victims of that human condition - hope. The ones who don't outright leave but continue to hope that ZOS didn't understand the impact of their actions and will continue to raise the issue, hoping to still, somehow be heard. The open letter about Bosmers was started in February of 2019, and that was about a passive! AwA impacted character histories going back eight years and decimated many play styles. The only way we won't be talking about this for years to come is if everyone does up and leave, which will ultimately impact the longevity of the game.
2. There is a term called a whale. These are people who make large purchases in the Crown Store, because it's their main hobby and they can afford to do so. You can't become a whale as a transient player. Many people are aware they are whales and even admit to it on the forums, often proudly. You don't spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars in the Crown Store if you expect to quit after a month. Who cares about buying Crown Crates until you get an apex mount unless you play to ride it and display it for many months to come?? If you scan through the forums, many long time players refuse to subscribe and there are guides on how to best leverage free ESO+ weekends. Additionally, because of the gold/Crown exchange, with dedication one can make gold in game to access purchasable content. So while I would agree that ESO+ is not the primary money maker for ZOS, I completely disagree that long term players are subscribers and short term players buy Crown Store things. I think a lot of long time players carefully curated MANY characters, and bought skins and costumes and motifs and mounts in the game to make each of those characters special, and a lot of those whales will either quit altogether or stop this practice because... what is the point now? Long-term players are extremely important to ESO, not only from this perspective but, because of the horrible tutorials and large gap between floor and ceiling, they are key to transitioning new players into "middle term players" that step foot in end game and/or group content. It's extremely short sighted to dismiss long-term players, although I'll grant you that to maximize profits ZOS would do well to both retain long term players and entice new players.

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I've been playing since Beta and lurked on the forums since then and we heard the same exact thing - "this could damage the game in more ways than anyone could have ever imagined" - when One Tamriel launched here on the forums. There were endless quitting threads, cancelling sub threads, people railing on and on and on about lost "feelings of character progression" because they could no longer solo ROFLStomp world bosses in starter zones and we all know many years later that One Tamriel was ultimately a solid move for the game, our own progression, and its longevity. AWA will be the same thing in the end and like One Tamriel is here to say - ZoS outright stated this just like they said for One Tamriel. Unlike One Tamriel AWA is also something the community has been repeatedly asked for since launch so I'm frankly quite happy that we finally have it. Next since we have AWA ZoS should implement Steam Achievements to capitalize on the forward momentum.

Ah, but there's a really big philosophical difference between AwA and One Tamriel. One that caused players such as myself to be in full support of One Tamriel and against -- not account wide achievements -- but this specific destructive implementation of AwA. And that difference is.... One Tamriel introduced CHOICE. It acknowledged a growing game, and addressed a need for new players to be able to jump in and experience it with their friends. It did not remove the ability for someone to follow the zones in original order and stay within their faction or only learn the recipes for their faction... it simply allowed people to play a different way, if they so chose. One Tamriel also opened up different areas and allowed new players to access more content than they could have previously. Ultimately it was an addition, encouraging "play the way you want" and also supporting re-playability because you could choose to go a different way for your next characters.

In contrast, this version of AwA removed a pretty significant choice for players. Not only that, there were MMO standards for AwA done well which were NOT followed in this implementation, so standing on the "repeatedly asked for" hill is a bit flawed because so many people expected something different than what they got. We didn't get industry standard AwA. We got a quick and dirty one.

And.. anyone who was upset that they couldn't ROFLStomp world bosses can now come back and voice their opinions against increasing Overland difficulty, as due to power creep we're pretty much back to that state. It just took a little while.

It is true - there will always be "I quit" threads, "this will ruin the game" threads, etc. etc. Mostly they are hyberbole and basically incorrect, not only because people tend to have narrow perspectives but because the game isn't going to just up and die - it will slowly decline. Just like policy changes with one country leader often don't reveal impacts until the next one has taken over, and then the current leader gets incorrectly attributed with the positive or negative fallout. Change takes time, good or bad. To truly evaluate whether broad changes are likely to be better or worse for a product that thrives with more customers... questions like "Is this an inclusive or exclusive change? Will this add exciting options or limit choices? Will this bring players together or cause a divide?" are important to consider and are the best indicators for whether a change will likely be good for the long term outlook of the game, despite initial resistance. The AwA implementation was not inclusive, caused a huge divide in the community, and limited play style options, as well as introduced a lot of bugs and immersion issues. The game won't immediately die but it sure wasn't the way to attract multiple play styles. One Tamriel, while it did alienate some of the hardcore players, was at its core about bringing people together and providing options. And that makes a world of difference.

Jaraal

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Clearly, they didnt go that way, and certainly I wish they would have, but that ship has sailed.

That ship may have sailed, but you’re going to hear about the voyage from now until the day the game shuts down.

I guarantee it.

FlopsyPrince

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

Those should not require addon authors to track, especially be console players do not have that.

The game should have had that integrated a long time ago!

renne

Folkb wrote: »

The only thing I don't like is that add ons aren't showing me the shards I still need on alts and bosses that I need to kill, other than that, not in the mood to do master angler on more toons lol.

What do you mean, you don't want to spend weeks tryna catch that one last dang fish in Coldharbour because every single fish in Coldharbour comes from a foul water hole?

renne

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

Literally this. I have my old main, who I rarely use, unless I want to do some farming because he's a vampire nightblade so super zippy. Without AWA everything I've done on him is essentially a waste, all the time grinding dailies, etc. Useless. With AWA, now he contributes to my totals. I have my old trial toon which I have a bunch of achievements completed on. But then my group was like "hey renne, can you please play x instead for synergy" so I did, and now I have a bunch of new different achievements on that, but everything I've done on my old trial toon is essentially a waste. With AWA, now my old trial toon contributes to my achievements.

But I was also levelling some skills so I was in a dungeon on my new trial toon, okay, and in BDV the stupid mudcrab piece for the monster parts achievements dropped that I haven't ever been able to get to drop on my main, which is a waste of time and infuriating, because my main is the one I am grinding those terrible achievements on.

Except now, with AWA, all of that has a place. It's gonna be nice when it finally rolls out on console.

unjulation

I came back after a good few years and thought the best way to get back into the game would be to create an alt and run through the game again, having done most of it years ago I reckoned it would be the way to go and was having a real blast of a time, so much so I thought I'd even got ESO+ for a month and see if it would be worthwhile, it really does make life easier and finally I brought my brother back to the game

Anyways, hearing about the up-and-coming changes gave pause for thought but tbh I didn't really care, I'd just continue to play the same as ever but a couple of things that have hit me with the dropping of the patch -

1) not getting completion xp from delves - like I mentioned my first character had done them all so this new one doesn't get it, that's a pisser and hits ware it hurts - my leveling journey, but I knew I could probably get over it the game itself is fun so all good

2) I've been hit with a bug ware all the skyshards that my first character had found are now no longer available to my alt - this bug doesn't seem to be affecting many if anybody else, I've not seen anyone mention it apart from me, mind it's not like I read every thread so it could be happening to others - but if that doesn't get fixed it has basically locked me out of a large pool of skill points and if it's only happening to a few peeps then I worry that it might not get fixed for an age if ever

So aye its a [snip] show for sure and has tainted my view of the game, changed my thinking about whether I should renew my sub, it's a no atm and I'm thinking that it's time for me and my bruv to find a new game we can play together which is a real shame as I've been having so much fun

I'm proper torn atm like I've mentioned a couple of times I've been having so much fun but I'm having a hard time justifying sticking about atm

[edited for profanity bypass]

proprio.meb16_ESO

Ive already participated a little in PST thread and so dismayed by the lack of acknowledge there that im not even that inclined anymore to read and write in the forum.
I'm still sharing here my two cents though, as i can never underline enough how broken the content is atm (and possibly in the future - what has been done is no easy thing to "fix" as someone still hopes... in the pts the hope of some was that awa could have been fixed in time for the release and here we are):

i created a main back when i started with one tamriel (had participated to the beta but not again until one tamriel) and did a lot of content with it pretty mindlessly and soloing everything i could. Then my kids were born and ofc i left pretty every game i was playing or kept playing at a minimum.

Ive returned to play more regularly when elseweyr was released and, thanks god, i was able to create a brand new main which is my actual one. With it i've been able to enjoy all questlines (comprising those i had done already, but had forgot or skipped) and most of the content. Unfortunately i rushed through some and it's a long time i plan to create a new character to taste again some of those i loved more, maybe all of them... he could have become my new main focus (those of you who are currently broken hearted for the whole situation know what i mean).

My elder kid is also growing up fast and showing interest in ESO (as he see me having fun - he's often beside me when i play) and another plan was to let him create a new character and start his own playthrough when he'll be wanting to.

Note that i'm not against AWA as a thing. My two "mains" have merged and so be it, fortunately i did only base game content with my old main, but can totally feel and be sad for people who just felt betrayed by this update. The more you've diversified your playthrough the hardest this change has hit you.

With the game in the actual state, and the alts that does not count anything anymore:
- the fresh start i had wouldn't have been possible
- my plan for a second playthrough is far less attractive now and i think i just wont do it unless things change.
- my kid will have to buy his own account for a fresh playthrough? really? i'd probably rather address him towards something else

Kesstryl

.

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't care either way, I only do achievements for the rewards, but I'm really surprised how many people are upset about this after years of people asking for account wide achievements. You can argue about the implementation, but to say that ZOS doesn't listen to the community when them listening to feedback is the only reason this change was even implemented seems wrong.

Sure if you realize they really only did this when they figured out that it would be a benefit to their database expense, shave money off at our expense, and deliver a really shoddy version of what other Triple AAA MMOs deliver flawlessly.

Kesstryl

peacenote wrote: »

I have so much to say on this topic...

show previous quotes

sarahthes wrote: »

Some of us want our level 3 Godslayers. All my Godslayers are on the same character anyway, might as well spread around the love a bit.

Sigh. I'm going to keep saying it as long as I'm here. The majority of people who are unhappy with the AwA implementation would have been completely fine with you getting your level 3 Godslayers. All other rewards have been account wide for a LONG time and most people who cannot stand that in a game have long since left. Titles could have been made account wide, like dyes, at the same time that dyes were made account wide. This is not a good justification for gutting character progression and historical data. In fact, while I see both sides of the title thing, I personally would have gladly supported account wide titles while retaining character specific achievements. The latter was way more important to me than the former.

The fact that titles were so important to some is an indication of a different issue - lack of meaningful rewards, especially for hard, time-consuming content. I hope this issue gets some attention but it's a whole other ballgame. And for roleplayers, a simple sorting mechanism or other indicator to know whether a character earned a title would likely have sufficed.

show previous quotes

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Clearly, they didnt go that way, and certainly I wish they would have, but that ship has sailed.

Oreyn, I always find your views to be very insightful with good perspectives, and I respect your stance on AwA. However I will say I think any sentiments like "the ship has sailed" lend themselves to an implied thought process of "ok, it's done, let's move on" and to that I disagree. We may have lost the battle but we don't need to lose the war. There are more ships. Many people don't follow PTS and are just discovering what this change means to them, and ZOS hearing those additional voices now, to possibly help with better decision-making in the future, is much better than moving on with a shrug. I hope the discussions illustrating the fact that they didn't revisit and make more paying customers happy go on for a long, long while.. because we all lose when that gets swept under the rug. You may be happy with the compromise this time, but the next one might be game breaking for you.

show previous quotes

ADarklore wrote: »

In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore.... So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.

My friend, I fear you could not be more wrong here. I say fear because despite this latest debacle I still don't wish the downfall of the game I have enjoyed for almost a decade. But this is why I think you're off the mark:

1. People have very long memories, and even if the abbreviation AwA ceases to be raised in every other forum thread, like it is now... the impression of a large percentage of the community (even those who are pro or ambivalent to the current implementation) that ZOS didn't listen or respond will remain in collective memory. It will be simplified and repeated over and over by those who are victims of that human condition - hope. The ones who don't outright leave but continue to hope that ZOS didn't understand the impact of their actions and will continue to raise the issue, hoping to still, somehow be heard. The open letter about Bosmers was started in February of 2019, and that was about a passive! AwA impacted character histories going back eight years and decimated many play styles. The only way we won't be talking about this for years to come is if everyone does up and leave, which will ultimately impact the longevity of the game.
2. There is a term called a whale. These are people who make large purchases in the Crown Store, because it's their main hobby and they can afford to do so. You can't become a whale as a transient player. Many people are aware they are whales and even admit to it on the forums, often proudly. You don't spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars in the Crown Store if you expect to quit after a month. Who cares about buying Crown Crates until you get an apex mount unless you play to ride it and display it for many months to come?? If you scan through the forums, many long time players refuse to subscribe and there are guides on how to best leverage free ESO+ weekends. Removing the craft bag from the subscription and/or adding it as a one-time Crown Store purchase is one of the weekly suggestions around these parts. Additionally, because of the gold/Crown exchange, with dedication one can make gold in game to access purchasable content. So while I would agree that ESO+ is not the primary money maker for ZOS, I completely disagree that long term players are subscribers and short term players buy Crown Store things. I think a lot of long time players carefully curated MANY characters, and bought skins and costumes and motifs and mounts in the game to make each of those characters special, and a lot of those whales will either quit altogether or stop this practice because... what is the point now? Long-term players are extremely important to ESO, not only from this perspective but, because of the horrible tutorials and large gap between floor and ceiling, they are key to transitioning new players into "middle term players" that step foot in end game and/or group content. It's extremely short sighted to dismiss long-term players, although I'll grant you that to maximize profits ZOS would do well to both retain long term players and entice new players.

show previous quotes

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I've been playing since Beta and lurked on the forums since then and we heard the same exact thing - "this could damage the game in more ways than anyone could have ever imagined" - when One Tamriel launched here on the forums. There were endless quitting threads, cancelling sub threads, people railing on and on and on about lost "feelings of character progression" because they could no longer solo ROFLStomp world bosses in starter zones and we all know many years later that One Tamriel was ultimately a solid move for the game, our own progression, and its longevity. AWA will be the same thing in the end and like One Tamriel is here to say - ZoS outright stated this just like they said for One Tamriel. Unlike One Tamriel AWA is also something the community has been repeatedly asked for since launch so I'm frankly quite happy that we finally have it. Next since we have AWA ZoS should implement Steam Achievements to capitalize on the forward momentum.

Ah, but there's a really big philosophical difference between AwA and One Tamriel. One that caused players such as myself to be in full support of One Tamriel and against -- not account wide achievements -- but this specific destructive implementation of AwA. And that difference is.... One Tamriel introduced CHOICE. It acknowledged a growing game, and addressed a need for new players to be able to jump in and experience it with their friends. It did not remove the ability for someone to follow the zones in original order and stay within their faction or only learn the recipes for their faction... it simply allowed people to play a different way, if they so chose. One Tamriel also opened up different areas and allowed new players to access more content than they could have previously. Ultimately it was an addition, encouraging "play the way you want" and also supporting re-playability because you could choose to go a different way for your next characters.

In contrast, this version of AwA removed a pretty significant choice for players. Not only that, there were MMO standards for AwA done well which were NOT followed in this implementation, so standing on the "repeatedly asked for" hill is a bit flawed because so many people expected something different than what they got. We didn't get industry standard AwA. We got a quick and dirty one.

And.. anyone who was upset that they couldn't ROFLStomp world bosses can now come back and voice their opinions against increasing Overland difficulty, as due to power creep we're pretty much back to that state. It just took a little while.

It is true - there will always be "I quit" threads, "this will ruin the game" threads, etc. etc. Mostly they are hyberbole and basically incorrect, not only because people tend to have narrow perspectives but because the game isn't going to just up and die - it will slowly decline. Just like policy changes with one country leader often don't reveal impacts until the next one has taken over, and then the current leader gets incorrectly attributed with the positive or negative fallout. Change takes time, good or bad. To truly evaluate whether broad changes are likely to be better or worse for a product that thrives with more customers... questions like "Is this an inclusive or exclusive change? Will this add exciting options or limit choices? Will this bring players together or cause a divide?" are important to consider and are the best indicators for whether a change will likely be good for the long term outlook of the game, despite initial resistance. The AwA implementation was not inclusive, caused a huge divide in the community, and limited play style options, as well as introduced a lot of bugs and immersion issues. The game won't immediately die but it sure wasn't an inclusive decision. One Tamriel, while it did alienate some of the hardcore players, was at its core about bringing people together and providing options. And that makes a world of difference.

Some of the feedback everyone here is posting needs to be posted in the official feedback threads for U33 at the top of the page. That's the one they're listening to. I love all of you guys for speaking up, encourage your guild mates to post why this implementation threw us under the bus and what they should do to fix it or make a proper AwA.

@proprio.meb16_ESO @unjulation @Merlin13KAGL @Saieden @ectoplasmicninja @Oreyn_Bearclaw @Caroloces @Agenericname @Tandor @ArchangelIsraphel @Vulkunne @shadyjane62 @wenchmore420b14_ESO @kargen27 @Comrade_Ogilvy @NeKryXe

_Zathras_

Caroloces wrote: »

These 2 elements are: 1. The ability to play the game as if it were brand-new, with each new character I create, and 2.The ability for each new character to deepen my knowledge of ES lore through the brilliant readings and dialogues encountered in each zone of Tamriel. I've been smitten with ES since TES III Morrowind in 2002.

This recent update has basically removed the incentives I have for playing with its poor implementation of the Account Wide Achievements.

And they call this a Quality of Life Improvement? I think the allure is fading away. The bloom is off the rose.

In the PTS Feedback Thread, there were dozens and dozens of people (including myself) who communicated this exact sentiment.

That thread is the largest, most read thread in ESO's history.

Not. One. Reply.

So, during all that time (well over a month) they actively did not engage the community, even though we literally went to great pains to plead our cases on an emotional level, as well as on technical levels. The silence on the matter was appalling. Sorry, is appalling, because it is still going on.

I even went so far as to directly message Gina via Twitter. I also contacted an outside gaming news venue to post the story, in hopes that visibility would make this less of a dirty secret.

Is this ESO's NGE? All I know, is that outside of the AWA itself, the behavior of the studio towards its customer base is unacceptable. At least to this 23+ year vet of MMO's.

My hope? Now that U33 is Live, that the rest of the community weighs in. Historically, I find they don't give the PTS community its fair shake, considering the thousands of volunteered hours people dedicate.

Considering Gina's stance on improved communications, there should be an outpouring of engagement. Right..?

To quote:

"We've had some initial conversations amongst our team to discuss ways to improve communication across the board and some different things we could try..rest assured we are actively looking at ways to improve."

@ZOS_GinaBruno The stage is all yours.

ArchangelIsraphel

@Kesstryl Thank you for the kind sentiments! I too appreciate everyone who spoke up and took the time to write posts explaining the issues we're facing with this update, along with those who have spoken in support of our views.

When I get some time, I'll do a write up to consolidate some of my thoughts more clearly than I have in my other posts and put it up on the official feedback thread.

Jaraal

Kesstryl wrote: »

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Faulgor wrote: »

I don't care either way, I only do achievements for the rewards, but I'm really surprised how many people are upset about this after years of people asking for account wide achievements. You can argue about the implementation, but to say that ZOS doesn't listen to the community when them listening to feedback is the only reason this change was even implemented seems wrong.

Sure if you realize they really only did this when they figured out that it would be a benefit to their database expense, shave money off at our expense, and deliver a really shoddy version of what other Triple AAA MMOs deliver flawlessly.

The difference between the games that do AWA successfully and ESO is that those other games were designed to operate that way from the beginning. None of the completely changing how the game works halfway through it's life cycle or wiping out millions of player hours of dedicated gameplay on a whim.

Still waiting for word on why they couldn't have just added a few terabytes of storage for achievements. Some vague 'possibly more performant in the future' excuse doesn't cut it.

Mrtoobyy

_Zathras_ wrote: »

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Caroloces wrote: »

These 2 elements are: 1. The ability to play the game as if it were brand-new, with each new character I create, and 2.The ability for each new character to deepen my knowledge of ES lore through the brilliant readings and dialogues encountered in each zone of Tamriel. I've been smitten with ES since TES III Morrowind in 2002.

This recent update has basically removed the incentives I have for playing with its poor implementation of the Account Wide Achievements.

And they call this a Quality of Life Improvement? I think the allure is fading away. The bloom is off the rose.

In the PTS Feedback Thread, there were dozens and dozens of people (including myself) who communicated this exact sentiment.

That thread is the largest, most read thread in ESO's history.

Not. One. Reply.

So, during all that time (well over a month) they actively did not engage the community, even though we literally went to great pains to plead our cases on an emotional level, as well as on technical levels. The silence on the matter was appalling. Sorry, is appalling, because it is still going on.

I even went so far as to directly message Gina via Twitter. I also contacted an outside gaming news venue to post the story, in hopes that visibility would make this less of a dirty secret.

Is this ESO's NGE? All I know, is that outside of the AWA itself, the behavior of the studio towards its customer base is unacceptable. At least to this 23+ year vet of MMO's.

My hope? Now that U33 is Live, that the rest of the community weighs in. Historically, I find they don't give the PTS community its fair shake, considering the thousands of volunteered hours people dedicate.

Considering Gina's stance on improved communications, there should be an outpouring of engagement. Right..?

To quote:

"We've had some initial conversations amongst our team to discuss ways to improve communication across the board and some different things we could try..rest assured we are actively looking at ways to improve."

@ZOS_GinaBruno The stage is all yours.

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

ADarklore

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

As for the BOLDED... people seem to forget that for the last 1-2 years they've not been working from the office, and I believe that has a LOT to do with all the problems and poorly thought out designs. I blame a lot of our current woes on lack of in-person communication which I believe leads to a lot of problems. As much as places want to say it doesn't, there is something to be said from direct, person to person communication and just being able to walk over to someone's desk and sit and communicate. Using ZOOM and other methods is not the same and will never replace the in-person connection.

Kesstryl

ADarklore wrote: »

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Mrtoobyy wrote: »

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

As for the BOLDED... people seem to forget that for the last 1-2 years they've not been working from the office, and I believe that has a LOT to do with all the problems and poorly thought out designs. I blame a lot of our current woes on lack of in-person communication which I believe leads to a lot of problems. As much as places want to say it doesn't, there is something to be said from direct, person to person communication and just being able to walk over to someone's desk and sit and communicate. Using ZOOM and other methods is not the same and will never replace the in-person connection.

That doesn't excuse them for pushing updates full of bugs that ignore player feedback. They could just postpone, I'm sure the player community would understand the unprecedented circumstances. I would forgive them that. This messy and destructive implementation I do not forgive,and will not until they fix the mess they created.

Charon_on_Vacation

Kesstryl wrote: »

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ADarklore wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

As for the BOLDED... people seem to forget that for the last 1-2 years they've not been working from the office, and I believe that has a LOT to do with all the problems and poorly thought out designs. I blame a lot of our current woes on lack of in-person communication which I believe leads to a lot of problems. As much as places want to say it doesn't, there is something to be said from direct, person to person communication and just being able to walk over to someone's desk and sit and communicate. Using ZOOM and other methods is not the same and will never replace the in-person connection.

That doesn't excuse them for pushing half baked updates full of bugs that ignore player feedback. They could just postpone, I'm sure the player community would understand the unprecedented circumstances. I would forgive them that. This messy and destructive implementation I do not forgive,and will not until they fix the mess they created.

what would you say, if you knew that they could not have postponed it, because they have no say in that matter?
what would you say, if you knew, that they have a really tight budget and have to adhere to given schedules?

ectoplasmicninja

I've posted in the PTS feedback thread, and I'm sure I've posted in the Update 33 feedback thread too. Even when the Q&A was released, there was absolutely nothing in there about the epilogue dialogue and character encounters like Melina Cassel. I get that those might be very minor issues in the scheme of things, but I feel like enough players have been vocal about them that the devs should be aware that they do matter to a not insignificant number of people.

I've been playing ESO almost daily since 2017 and I love the Elder Scrolls universe and I love this game. I just want to see our concerns addressed. It doesn't have to be anything dramatic, no one needs to fall on a sword, just an indicator that they have heard us and are intending to fix it. Or that they're looking into seeing whether it can be fixed. Or that it can't be fixed. Anything but silence, really.

ADarklore

Kesstryl wrote: »

That doesn't excuse them for pushing half baked updates full of bugs that ignore player feedback. They could just postpone, I'm sure the player community would understand the unprecedented circumstances. I would forgive them that. This messy and destructive implementation I do not forgive,and will not until they fix the mess they created.

Have you played ESO long? They do this ALL THE TIME and have since ESO began. PTS is solely for finding bugs, when things are pushed to PTS they already have a plan and player 'feedback' isn't going to change it. I've been playing since 2015, I've seen this same thing through countless updates and patches. What's on PTS is what we're getting, other than a few tweaks here and there, but overall everything is set in stone.

heaven13

Working remote is no excuse for delivering poor quality products. Is it harder? Sure. Does it mean restructuring how things have been done in the past and shifting timetables and deliverables to account for this? It should. Everyone in the world has been affected by the pandemic. We’re past the two year mark at this point. We all still have work to do and we’re all still expected to perform our jobs to a certain standard. A game studio should be no different.

heaven13

ADarklore wrote: »

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Kesstryl wrote: »

That doesn't excuse them for pushing half baked updates full of bugs that ignore player feedback. They could just postpone, I'm sure the player community would understand the unprecedented circumstances. I would forgive them that. This messy and destructive implementation I do not forgive,and will not until they fix the mess they created.

Have you played ESO long? They do this ALL THE TIME and have since ESO began. PTS is solely for finding bugs, when things are pushed to PTS they already have a plan and player 'feedback' isn't going to change it. I've been playing since 2015, I've seen this same thing through countless updates and patches. What's on PTS is what we're getting, other than a few tweaks here and there, but overall everything is set in stone.

Sadly the PTS basically appears to be for marketing and hype generation only. Remember when housing storage was first released? There was a bug found on PTS early on that deleted all your stored items under certain conditions. Did they fix it? Nope. Bug went live and more people encountered the problem which required more fixing than it probably would have if they had done it initially (or delayed the feature). You’re right, PTS is rarely listened to and why a lot of people stopped bothering with it because the devs do not listen. My hats go off to those that still do free QC for the studio on their spare time because at least informed players can prepare in advance.

kringled_1

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

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Kesstryl wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Mrtoobyy wrote: »

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

As for the BOLDED... people seem to forget that for the last 1-2 years they've not been working from the office, and I believe that has a LOT to do with all the problems and poorly thought out designs. I blame a lot of our current woes on lack of in-person communication which I believe leads to a lot of problems. As much as places want to say it doesn't, there is something to be said from direct, person to person communication and just being able to walk over to someone's desk and sit and communicate. Using ZOOM and other methods is not the same and will never replace the in-person connection.

That doesn't excuse them for pushing half baked updates full of bugs that ignore player feedback. They could just postpone, I'm sure the player community would understand the unprecedented circumstances. I would forgive them that. This messy and destructive implementation I do not forgive,and will not until they fix the mess they created.

what would you say, if you knew that they could not have postponed it, because they have no say in that matter?
what would you say, if you knew, that they have a really tight budget and have to adhere to given schedules?

If your tight schedule requires you to ship a product with major flaws and no way to reverse the changes, then I would say that their project management and planning is terrible. If they did not recognize the ways in which this would upset some players then they are not in touch with big chunks their player base. If they started down this path with no realization of how integrated achievements are with the zone guide or the once per account content they have created, then I would say that their database people were operating without a broad understanding of the product as a whole. If they only realized this at the start of pts (when it was rapidly pointed out by players) but it was already too late to release the dungeons without implementing awa, then their code branching and control needs a lot of work.

_Zathras_

ADarklore wrote: »

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Mrtoobyy wrote: »

I feel the same way you do... Been an active player since beta and paid ALOT of dollars to ZOS wich I don't regret BUT I hesitate to pay them more they way the game been going the last 1-2 years.

It seems they have lost the "glow" they had the first year this game came out wich is understandable since they are human, it's like that with all things in life. Maybe ESO has had its glory days and ZOS know it wich is why they mostly focus on adding new stuff to make $ instead of improving the existing stuff wich alot of player plea for.

The same with this thread, I guess most of the things will fall on deaf ears

As for the BOLDED... people seem to forget that for the last 1-2 years they've not been working from the office, and I believe that has a LOT to do with all the problems and poorly thought out designs. I blame a lot of our current woes on lack of in-person communication which I believe leads to a lot of problems. As much as places want to say it doesn't, there is something to be said from direct, person to person communication and just being able to walk over to someone's desk and sit and communicate. Using ZOOM and other methods is not the same and will never replace the in-person connection.

This is a systemic problem that predates the situation of the last 2 years. It may have been an excuse in the first half year to a year, but businesses have adapted to in-home workplaces. The adjustment phase is long over.

Global health crisis aside, as I noted, proper communication has long been a point of criticism for this studio. Once we got past the honeymoon phase (the first 2 years) there was a palpable shift which gradually became the current environment.

I could compare this to what happened with Sony, and ANET, with the incongruity of studio silence meeting the repeated attempts by a company's customer base for the basics of communication, and you would see line by line overlapping.

So while they may not learn from their past/present, other people have. We have the case histories.

People that want to communicate..do so. People that want to put on an Effort to Improve to Communicate (honest!) (tm), create threads of feel-good community busywork without any follow through.

RisenEclipse

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't care either way, I only do achievements for the rewards, but I'm really surprised how many people are upset about this after years of people asking for account wide achievements. You can argue about the implementation, but to say that ZOS doesn't listen to the community when them listening to feedback is the only reason this change was even implemented seems wrong.

I think when this was asked, most people who wanted accountwide achievements also wanted to keep the character achievements. I don't think anyone believed it would be where you can have this one or that one, but you can't have both, sort of idea. If there was a toggle to have global achievements but still have character achievements, or at least a way to track map progression better per character, then the response would be a lot better for it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

peacenote wrote: »

I have so much to say on this topic...

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sarahthes wrote: »

Some of us want our level 3 Godslayers. All my Godslayers are on the same character anyway, might as well spread around the love a bit.

Sigh. I'm going to keep saying it as long as I'm here. The majority of people who are unhappy with the AwA implementation would have been completely fine with you getting your level 3 Godslayers. All other rewards have been account wide for a LONG time and most people who cannot stand that in a game have long since left. Titles could have been made account wide, like dyes, at the same time that dyes were made account wide. This is not a good justification for gutting character progression and historical data. In fact, while I see both sides of the title thing, I personally would have gladly supported account wide titles while retaining character specific achievements. The latter was way more important to me than the former.

The fact that titles were so important to some is an indication of a different issue - lack of meaningful rewards, especially for hard, consuming content. I hope this issue gets some attention but it's a whole other ballgame. And for roleplayers, a simply sorting mechanism or other indicator to know whether a character earned a title would likely have sufficed.

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Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Clearly, they didnt go that way, and certainly I wish they would have, but that ship has sailed.

Oreyn, I always find your views to be very insightful with good perspectives, and I respect your stance on AwA. However I will say I think any sentiments like "the ship has sailed" lend themselves to an implied thought process of "ok, it's done, let's move on" and to that I disagree. We may have lost the battle but we don't need to lose the war. There are more ships. Many people don't follow PTS and are just discovering what this change means to them, and ZOS hearing those additional voices now, to possibly help with better decision-making in the future, is much better than moving on with a shrug. I hope the discussions illustrating the fact that they didn't revisit and make more paying customers happy goes on for a long, long while.. because we all lose when that gets swept under the rug. You may be happy with the compromise this time, but the next one might be game breaking for you.

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ADarklore wrote: »

In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore.... So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.

My friend, I fear you could not be more wrong here. I say fear because despite this latest debacle I still don't wish the downfall of the game I have enjoyed for almost a decade. But this is why I think you're off the mark:

1. People have very long memories, and even if the abbreviation AwA ceases to be raised in every other forum thread, like it is now... the impression of a large percentage of the community (even those who are pro or ambivalent to the current implementation) that ZOS didn't listen or respond will remain in collective memory. It will be simplified and repeated over and over by those who are victims of that human condition - hope. The ones who don't outright leave but continue to hope that ZOS didn't understand the impact of their actions and will continue to raise the issue, hoping to still, somehow be heard. The open letter about Bosmers was started in February of 2019, and that was about a passive! AwA impacted character histories going back eight years and decimated many play styles. The only way we won't be talking about this for years to come is if everyone does up and leave, which will ultimately impact the longevity of the game.
2. There is a term called a whale. These are people who make large purchases in the Crown Store, because it's their main hobby and they can afford to do so. You can't become a whale as a transient player. Many people are aware they are whales and even admit to it on the forums, often proudly. You don't spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars in the Crown Store if you expect to quit after a month. Who cares about buying Crown Crates until you get an apex mount unless you play to ride it and display it for many months to come?? If you scan through the forums, many long time players refuse to subscribe and there are guides on how to best leverage free ESO+ weekends. Additionally, because of the gold/Crown exchange, with dedication one can make gold in game to access purchasable content. So while I would agree that ESO+ is not the primary money maker for ZOS, I completely disagree that long term players are subscribers and short term players buy Crown Store things. I think a lot of long time players carefully curated MANY characters, and bought skins and costumes and motifs and mounts in the game to make each of those characters special, and a lot of those whales will either quit altogether or stop this practice because... what is the point now? Long-term players are extremely important to ESO, not only from this perspective but, because of the horrible tutorials and large gap between floor and ceiling, they are key to transitioning new players into "middle term players" that step foot in end game and/or group content. It's extremely short sighted to dismiss long-term players, although I'll grant you that to maximize profits ZOS would do well to both retain long term players and entice new players.

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Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I've been playing since Beta and lurked on the forums since then and we heard the same exact thing - "this could damage the game in more ways than anyone could have ever imagined" - when One Tamriel launched here on the forums. There were endless quitting threads, cancelling sub threads, people railing on and on and on about lost "feelings of character progression" because they could no longer solo ROFLStomp world bosses in starter zones and we all know many years later that One Tamriel was ultimately a solid move for the game, our own progression, and its longevity. AWA will be the same thing in the end and like One Tamriel is here to say - ZoS outright stated this just like they said for One Tamriel. Unlike One Tamriel AWA is also something the community has been repeatedly asked for since launch so I'm frankly quite happy that we finally have it. Next since we have AWA ZoS should implement Steam Achievements to capitalize on the forward momentum.

Ah, but there's a really big philosophical difference between AwA and One Tamriel. One that caused players such as myself to be in full support of One Tamriel and against -- not account wide achievements -- but this specific destructive implementation of AwA. And that difference is.... One Tamriel introduced CHOICE. It acknowledged a growing game, and addressed a need for new players to be able to jump in and experience it with their friends. It did not remove the ability for someone to follow the zones in original order and stay within their faction or only learn the recipes for their faction... it simply allowed people to play a different way, if they so chose. One Tamriel also opened up different areas and allowed new players to access more content than they could have previously. Ultimately it was an addition, encouraging "play the way you want" and also supporting re-playability because you could choose to go a different way for your next characters.

In contrast, this version of AwA removed a pretty significant choice for players. Not only that, there were MMO standards for AwA done well which were NOT followed in this implementation, so standing on the "repeatedly asked for" hill is a bit flawed because so many people expected something different than what they got. We didn't get industry standard AwA. We got a quick and dirty one.

And.. anyone who was upset that they couldn't ROFLStomp world bosses can now come back and voice their opinions against increasing Overland difficulty, as due to power creep we're pretty much back to that state. It just took a little while.

It is true - there will always be "I quit" threads, "this will ruin the game" threads, etc. etc. Mostly they are hyberbole and basically incorrect, not only because people tend to have narrow perspectives but because the game isn't going to just up and die - it will slowly decline. Just like policy changes with one country leader often don't reveal impacts until the next one has taken over, and then the current leader gets incorrectly attributed with the positive or negative fallout. Change takes time, good or bad. To truly evaluate whether broad changes are likely to be better or worse for a product that thrives with more customers... questions like "Is this an inclusive or exclusive change? Will this add exciting options or limit choices? Will this bring players together or cause a divide?" are important to consider and are the best indicators for whether a change will likely be good for the long term outlook of the game, despite initial resistance. The AwA implementation was not inclusive, caused a huge divide in the community, and limited play style options, as well as introduced a lot of bugs and immersion issues. The game won't immediately die but it sure wasn't the way to attract multiple play styles. One Tamriel, while it did alienate some of the hardcore players, was at its core about bringing people together and providing options. And that makes a world of difference.

Again, I am not programmer. I was under the impression from people that know way more about this stuff than I do, that once the individual character achievement database was essentially collapsed into the account wide version, there likely was no going back. Frankly one of the reasons I think people are so upset is that this move felt rushed, and it may not be reversible, or maybe better word is amendable.

I think the better direction going forward is to focus efforts on the silly side effects from the system (instant GMC even though you never had it, Zone Guides, maps filled in, etc), so we can provide some relief to players that, as OP suggested, use achievements as guide posts, which is certainly not unreasonable. I think a reset to last week, even if technically possible, is extraordinarily unlikely, hence my "ship has sailed" comment.

Jaraal

_Zathras_ wrote: »

So while they may not learn from their past/present, other people have. We have the case histories.

Highest 30 day percentage drop in the past 5 years (among Steam players). And that's during a new content cycle. Where are all these people that were supposedly asking for account wide achievements? They should be flocking back by now.


https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Bradyfjord

It's unfortunate that there are side effects to this AwA. I really only have one main, and several alts that I play on occasion. Thus I was unaware of how this would affect the various story decisions a character makes. I hope they look into finding ways to retrace/fix this situation so that the players affected don't lose their sense of each characters' progress.

francesinhalover

Caroloces wrote: »

ZOS would be hard pressed to find a more dedicated player than me. In the game since its inception, I’ve been a consistent subscriber, promoted the game to friends, family, and utter strangers, salivated over new chapters and eagerly shelled out my money at the first opportunity to make those purchases.

Ok, maybe that’s a bit of hyperbole. ZOS, I’m sure, would find thousands of players just like me who have been enchanted with the game since our first timid steps in Coldharbor back in the day (2014 for me). And what has kept me going these past 8 years of my life? There are really 2 essential elements for keeping me in this game for the longest period I’ve ever spent in any computer game, and believe me, at age 72, I’ve spent decades playing (anyone remember Dungeon Master on the Amiga?).

These 2 elements are: 1. The ability to play the game as if it were brand-new, with each new character I create, and 2.The ability for each new character to deepen my knowledge of ES lore through the brilliant readings and dialogues encountered in each zone of Tamriel. I've been smitten with ES since TES III Morrowind in 2002.

This recent update has basically removed the incentives I have for playing with its poor implementation of the Account Wide Achievements. Now, don’t get me wrong, the AWA could be useful and fun if it was limited to broad, general achievements like “Crime Pays” or “Give to the Poor” where characters do their part to contribute to the greater good of the account as a whole, but the essential guidepost type achievements (eg., Mages Guild and Fighter’s Guild Skill Master) are essential points of interest for guiding each character that you create. Finding that the Mages Guild Skill Master was completed by my Orc character, Mandanor, back in 2016 is basically meaningless to me today.

I understand the concerns about the performance hits that achievements take. I actually feel that I could have lived with the AWA if it had not affected the Zone Guides. The Zone Guides are truly the bedrock of character guidance in the replay value of the game. Unfortunately, the Zone Guides are connected to achievements, and now they share the same pitfalls of diminished replayability. Just logging in now, I discover that my newest character, barely created a month ago, has completed 30 unique quests in Western Skyrim (zone guide) back in 2020. He has never even entered Western Skyrim.

And they call this a Quality of Life Improvement? I think the allure is fading away. The bloom is off the rose.

being honest here, i'm 99% sure z won't read this post.
anyways, hopefully the awa gets fixed

francesinhalover

Jaraal wrote: »

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_Zathras_ wrote: »

So while they may not learn from their past/present, other people have. We have the case histories.

Highest 30 day percentage drop in the past 5 years (among Steam players). And that's during a new content cycle. Where are all these people that were supposedly asking for account wide achievements? They should be flocking back by now.


https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

Imagine how much drop there was outside steam?

You know something is bad when a really old https://steamcharts.com/app/218620 A game that isn't a mmorpg and has Dead game memes all over the place, from a studio that went bankrupt and barely puts out content has 30k more players per 24hrs.
Yet there are still people who say eso is competing with wow, final fantasy and gw2. final https://steamcharts.com/app/39210 has 25k in 24h and there isn't even a 100% xp event going on there atm.

eso has lots of potential...