Has ESO finally lost its allure?

shadyjane62 · March 2022

Since I'm 71 I see hope for my future in gaming after reading the OP. I agree wholeheartedly. I have always subbed till now. Always bought the chapter and dlc without hesitating. Till now.

I have all the time in the world to play and plenty enough retirement money to afford any sub or game. But I won't pay for something no longer worth the money. I will continue to play as long as I can find something to do and them look elsewhere.

And I will miss what ESO used to be.

Wolfpaw · March 2022

A PvP marketed MMORPG that sold-out to focus on PvE...for years.

Year after year of performance promises unfulfilled.

Some of the best/popular ESO streamers were PvP w/viewers in the thousands, left to be replaced with streams that barely hit 100 viewers on sleepy overland content, and hard mode trials that most of the ESO community will never do.

No creative incentives/rewards to PvP and bring revenue through PvP.

No new races

Only 2 new classes

One new combat skill line

No new weapon types

No tournament Zeni/ESO streams...instead, cooking...

A hyped up expansion,...is it naval warfare pvp map? Is it boat building to explore a water zone? New class? New skill line? New race? New weapon type?...nope, it's a mini card game.

So ya the hype train left the station, and I gave my ticket away.

That said, it's still the best MMORPG on console atm.

xclassgaming · March 2022

No.

Caroloces · March 2022

vindex9ona wrote: »

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

I think you're missing an important part of my general critique of this change. I stated that I could live with AWA as long as it didn't obfuscate my ability to navigate different characters through the world of Tamriel. And, unfortunately, this implementation does that. In the early days of the game, I could have cared less about achievements. I was underwhelmed by having dyes as rewards! Once they introduced the Zone Guides (one of the best additions to the game IMHO!), i found I could use certain elements of the achievements in tandem with the Zone Guides to keep track of all of my alts' progress. So instead of hopping on an alt and having no clue as to what that alt needed to do, I could then intelligently guide that alt through a coherent progression, whether it be a zone, guild, dungeon or the main story itself.

RPGplayer13579 · March 2022

I would say that the next chapter is less impressive as previous chapters. With a card game as the big new feature. There is an interesting questline, but I doubt will have any effect on the game at large or the Three Banners War. On the plus side it looks like my Khajiit character will get a new companion.

tmbrinks · March 2022

Caroloces wrote: »

show previous quotes

vindex9ona wrote: »

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

I think you're missing an important part of my general critique of this change. I stated that I could live with AWA as long as it didn't obfuscate my ability to navigate different characters through the world of Tamriel. And, unfortunately, this implementation does that. In the early days of the game, I could have cared less about achievements. I was underwhelmed by having dyes as rewards! Once they introduced the Zone Guides (one of the best additions to the game IMHO!), i found I could use certain elements of the achievements in tandem with the Zone Guides to keep track of all of my alts' progress. So instead of hopping on an alt and having no clue as to what that alt needed to do, I could then intelligently guide that alt through a coherent progression, whether it be a zone, guild, dungeon or the main story itself.

Yup, they're just gaslighting you to try and make you feel guilty about a feeling of loss with this patch. Seem to be a group doing that recently. They (the group) derailed the PTS feedback thread repeatedly, and are trying to do the same now.

Vrienda · March 2022

Been with this game for 8 years now. Since beta. The way AWA is implemented is the single most damaging thing to the way I enjoy and play the game that I have ever seen. And I went through veteran ranks, the introduction of crown crates and I paid a sub throughout the entirety of the perioid where it was a -requirement-. I have the tiger to prove it.

I was on the PTS forum begging them not to ship this but just about all the feedback was ignored. And the game is all the worse for it with no improvement to server functionality what so ever.

If Achievements were truly causing this much damage how long until ZOS decide to do something as abhorrant as vaulting like Destiny 2 does?

wenchmore420b14_ESO · March 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

show previous quotes

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

The total storage space for all the achievements in the game is likely under 5 TB of data (given my conversation with an add-on creator who looked into ZoS's storage of achievements and a projection of the number of players in the game).

If a billion dollar company can't manage a 5 TB database in a world of Petabytes of data, then this game is as good as cooked.

If they were actually doing it for performance improvements they would have shouted that from the mountains at the reveal. It was only added in as a footnote in the Q&A when they knew they had opened a can of worms, so they went back to their favorite response that's been said a dozen times, with no noticeable improvement in performance as of yet.

Thank You @tmbrinks! You took the words right out of my mouth!
When the so-called "Q&A" came out I said the exact same thing about how if this had been the REAL reason, they would have opened their World Reveal with it. But yet "performance improvement" was NOT MENTIONED in the whole 2 hr video.

Remember how proud they were that they were removing deer and lightning bugs from Cyrodiil to improve performance?
And it didn't.........

Nomadic_Atmoran · March 2022

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

TPishek · March 2022

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

show previous quotes

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

It's true though. There's not just some magic "fix performance" button on an intern's desk somewhere they are avoiding pushing because they hate us. It took a long time with lots of little changes and additions for performance to degrade, it's going to take a lot of tweaks and changes and overhauls to get performance to a decent place.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · March 2022

Caroloces wrote: »

ZOS would be hard pressed to find a more dedicated player than me. In the game since its inception, I’ve been a consistent subscriber, promoted the game to friends, family, and utter strangers, salivated over new chapters and eagerly shelled out my money at the first opportunity to make those purchases.

Ok, maybe that’s a bit of hyperbole. ZOS, I’m sure, would find thousands of players just like me who have been enchanted with the game since our first timid steps in Coldharbor back in the day (2014 for me). And what has kept me going these past 8 years of my life? There are really 2 essential elements for keeping me in this game for the longest period I’ve ever spent in any computer game, and believe me, at age 72, I’ve spent decades playing (anyone remember Dungeon Master on the Amiga?).

These 2 elements are: 1. The ability to play the game as if it were brand-new, with each new character I create, and 2.The ability for each new character to deepen my knowledge of ES lore through the brilliant readings and dialogues encountered in each zone of Tamriel. I've been smitten with ES since TES III Morrowind in 2002.

This recent update has basically removed the incentives I have for playing with its poor implementation of the Account Wide Achievements. Now, don’t get me wrong, the AWA could be useful and fun if it was limited to broad, general achievements like “Crime Pays” or “Give to the Poor” where characters do their part to contribute to the greater good of the account as a whole, but the essential guidepost type achievements (eg., Mages Guild and Fighter’s Guild Skill Master) are essential points of interest for guiding each character that you create. Finding that the Mages Guild Skill Master was completed by my Orc character, Mandanor, back in 2016 is basically meaningless to me today.

I understand the concerns about the performance hits that achievements take. I actually feel that I could have lived with the AWA if it had not affected the Zone Guides. The Zone Guides are truly the bedrock of character guidance in the replay value of the game. Unfortunately, the Zone Guides are connected to achievements, and now they share the same pitfalls of diminished replayability. Just logging in now, I discover that my newest character, barely created a month ago, has completed 30 unique quests in Western Skyrim (zone guide) back in 2020. He has never even entered Western Skyrim.

And they call this a Quality of Life Improvement? I think the allure is fading away. The bloom is off the rose.

@ZOS_Kevin
How many more of these heartfelt stories will we see before we get some kind of response, empathy, acknowledgement, ANYTHING from the ones who insisted on pushing this obviously broken UD to live?
When will Matt or Rich stand up and address the community?

Ulvich · March 2022

What bothers me the most is that it appears ZM is not listening to the fan base. During the last PTS they asked for feedback, and they got over 90 pages of it mostly asking not to include AwA in the upcoming patch. Now, since the patch, there have been numerous issues regarding skyshards, discovered points, titles, and achievements. This tells me that either ZM did not fully test everything, or they just don't understand (or care about) our points of view.
Today I sent in my feedback right after I canceled my subscription. Being a former programmer myself I hope they come to terms with the mess that has been created and make it right. I hope.

heaven13 · March 2022

TPishek wrote: »

show previous quotes

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

It's true though. There's not just some magic "fix performance" button on an intern's desk somewhere they are avoiding pushing because they hate us. It took a long time with lots of little changes and additions for performance to degrade, it's going to take a lot of tweaks and changes and overhauls to get performance to a decent place.

They’ve been trying to fix performance for literal years. It only ever gets worse. How long can the boy cry wolf before the village stops believing him?

TPishek · March 2022

heaven13 wrote: »

show previous quotes

TPishek wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

It's true though. There's not just some magic "fix performance" button on an intern's desk somewhere they are avoiding pushing because they hate us. It took a long time with lots of little changes and additions for performance to degrade, it's going to take a lot of tweaks and changes and overhauls to get performance to a decent place.

They’ve been trying to fix performance for literal years. It only ever gets worse. How long can the boy cry wolf before the village stops believing him?

That's disingenuous, even right now isn't nearly as bad as harrowstorm was.

tmbrinks · March 2022

TPishek wrote: »

show previous quotes

heaven13 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

It's true though. There's not just some magic "fix performance" button on an intern's desk somewhere they are avoiding pushing because they hate us. It took a long time with lots of little changes and additions for performance to degrade, it's going to take a lot of tweaks and changes and overhauls to get performance to a decent place.

They’ve been trying to fix performance for literal years. It only ever gets worse. How long can the boy cry wolf before the village stops believing him?

That's disingenuous, even right now isn't nearly as bad as harrowstorm was.

I could at least play during Harrowstorm. Just had to call my Unchained Prog early because we had 15 minute long load screens.

So, it's not disingenuous.

TPishek · March 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

show previous quotes

TPishek wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

And how's that performance? I'm sure you've noticed it since you're so quick to defend ZOS here by pointing that out. Surely you've seen a jump from before the update right?

It's true though. There's not just some magic "fix performance" button on an intern's desk somewhere they are avoiding pushing because they hate us. It took a long time with lots of little changes and additions for performance to degrade, it's going to take a lot of tweaks and changes and overhauls to get performance to a decent place.

They’ve been trying to fix performance for literal years. It only ever gets worse. How long can the boy cry wolf before the village stops believing him?

That's disingenuous, even right now isn't nearly as bad as harrowstorm was.

I could at least play during Harrowstorm. Just had to call my Unchained Prog early because we had 15 minute long load screens.

So, it's not disingenuous.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 2022

vindex9ona wrote: »

show previous quotes

Caroloces wrote: »

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

Prior to this update, my lovely Orc, Mandanor, did not "forget" that he had achieved Mages Guild Skill Master. It was evident in his achievements. If I logged onto a different character, I would see that character's achievements, and not Mandanor's. I was a classroom teacher before I retired. If I gave "Johnny" a 100 on a spelling test, that score was not forgotten once I gave "Jane" an 85. It would be ludicrous to give "Johnny" a 100 on his test and have that show up as the score for all of my students! And that is exactly the scenario that is taking place in ESO with this update.

This is an online game. At some point the servers will be shut down forever and all characters and their achievements will be lost.
Our comments have nothing to do with cruelty or lack of empathy, but with an healthy relationship with life and the difference between a game and reality.

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

All achievements are and have always been player ones fundamentally. Because you, the player, is the only thing real and the one that did all of it in game. And since it’s a game, you did it all for fun and that’s all that matters in the end.
[snip]

[snip]

[Minor edit for nonconstructive comment.]

Those of us who are impacted by this update have had similar things repeated at us plenty of times through our entire battle to prevent this update from happening in its current form, and every single time someone repeats "It's the player not the character" at us, it comes from the same place of completely and totally misunderstanding how we think and play. It has nothing to do with the difference between "a game and reality". None of us were sitting here thinking our characters could act without our input, no matter how beloved our characters may be.

Since I have had to repeat myself multiple times to re-explain the fact that we know the difference between ourselves and our characters I will quote myself instead of re-typing the entire thing over again.

As for those still using the "the player achieves things not the character" argument, as a player, I'd like to be able to actually track my characters progress on a new alt without jumping through hoops in order to do so. Having the zone guide already filled in for certain things on new characters is unacceptable, and although addons have been created to solve the issue, it should not have been one to begin with. What has been implemented is not QOL, it's an inconvenience. We used to have a working system where you could easily see, as a player, what you have and have not done on a new character in terms of delves and bosses. Now we don't.

And on that subject, going off on a bit of a tangent, as someone who would have liked to retain independent character tracking for story purposes, I know very well as a player I'm the one driving my characters behind the wheel. So does everyone else in this thread who has had "the player achieves things, not the character" repeated at them. We're aware of that. Why? Because we're the one creating a story through our characters, and having that independent tracking gave us, AS A PLAYER BEHIND THE WHEEL, the ability to make choices as to how we wanted to steer the car.

As a player, I could choose how I felt my character would reach in a situation, what they would pursue, where they would go. AS A PLAYER, I was crafting the story I wanted to create through my choices by using the achievement system as a tool. We are wholly and completely aware that we are achieving things AS A PLAYER- but we are doing it on independent characters to create each story. Having my choices AS A PLAYER made null by AWA to the point where, in some cases, I cannot even choose alternate endings to quests in order to pursue independent paths for different characters is unacceptable. Yes, we are the ones achieving things- on characters we crafted as individuals, and having our achievements and efforts on those individuals AS PLAYERS removed to the point where our accounts have become a seamless mush without add-ons is ridiculous. I can't track -what I as a player need to track-

Yes, indeed THE PLAYER is achieving things, and THE PLAYER is very annoyed that they can no longer do so on a per-character basis. We've had this quoted at us so many times, and its a huge misconception as to how we actually feel and what we actually want. So, yes, I agree- the player does achieve things! And as such, as players, we wanted to be able to do that multiple times on separate characters in order to make alternate choices so that we, as players, could craft individual stories, not have the entire account treated as if every single character we make is part of some kind of weird meta.

I as the player behind the wheel, I want to steer the car, not have it set on per-determined tracks for me from the moment of character creation simply because I once made a choice in the past while driving a different car.

We know as players we're achieving things. We're participating in an act of creation when we play the game, create characters, and tell their stories. We also know that one day the servers will go down, because we aren't playing with a detachment from reality, and that it isn't permanent. But for so long as it is here, we were using the game as a tool to create, and removing independent character achievements hinders that.

And, since the subject has been brought up, all things in life are temporal. That doesn't keep you from feeling for the people you love even though they will one day pass, admiring a tree even though a time will come when its leaves will wilt and the strength in its limbs will rot away, loving a pet though it's life may be shorter than your own....or loving a game and that which you create in it, or feeling loss when changes are made to something you care about, even though some day the servers will go down.

But part of that loss has come too soon, in the form of AWA, and for some people leaving the game forever, in their hearts the servers already have gone down.

We're human, we feel for things. No one who has fought against this should be ashamed of loving what they have created in this game or feeling strongly about it when they feel they have lost something within it. The characters may not be real, or the story, but the experience of playing and creating them as we did so was, as it was an act of creativity. The emotions invested in that act of creation were also real. It is like making a painting, or writing a story. Should an artist not feel upset if their work is defaced?

Don't ever let anyone invalidate those feelings or convince you they were wrong- you are all stronger than you know. You all fought well.

We will grieve, some of us will recover and continue playing as we find the means and the will to continue. Some of us will move on.

Certainly, many of us have the means beyond the game to create, and that is comfort to me as I continue to play. I have my writing and my art. But I still grieve for those who do not have that, and who feel that something of value to them has been destroyed. The fact that it was ultimately temporary does not alter that value. In fact, it only makes it more valuable to many of us.

I do see my achievements as player achievements. I am a player, creating different characters as individuals, telling stories through them for fun and my personal entertainment. Thinking of them as "Player achievements" does not suddenly make it all better for us.

We already did think of them that way.

But that's the power of story for those who put their hearts into it- we can feel strongly even for that which isn't real, because we had a hand in creating it. Strong emotion is part of the driving force behind imagination. I do not expect everyone to understand or feel the same. But I expect those that do feel the same, know exactly what I mean. We know very well it is our hands and our hearts that crafted the characters we bring to life for our entertainment on the screen.

Sylvermynx · March 2022

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

Those of us who are impacted by this update have had similar things repeated at us plenty of times through our entire battle to prevent this update from happening in its current form, and every single time someone repeats "It's the player not the character" at us, it comes from the same place of completely and totally misunderstanding how we think and play. It has nothing to do with the difference between "a game and reality". None of us were sitting here thinking our characters could act without our input, no matter how beloved our characters may be.

Since I have had to repeat myself multiple times to re-explain the fact that we know the difference between ourselves and our characters I will quote myself instead of re-typing the entire thing over again.
show previous quotes

As for those still using the "the player achieves things not the character" argument, as a player, I'd like to be able to actually track my characters progress on a new alt without jumping through hoops in order to do so. Having the zone guide already filled in for certain things on new characters is unacceptable, and although addons have been created to solve the issue, it should not have been one to begin with. What has been implemented is not QOL, it's an inconvenience. We used to have a working system where you could easily see, as a player, what you have and have not done on a new character in terms of delves and bosses. Now we don't.

And on that subject, going off on a bit of a tangent, as someone who would have liked to retain independent character tracking for story purposes, I know very well as a player I'm the one driving my characters behind the wheel. So does everyone else in this thread who has had "the player achieves things, not the character" repeated at them. We're aware of that. Why? Because we're the one creating a story through our characters, and having that independent tracking gave us, AS A PLAYER BEHIND THE WHEEL, the ability to make choices as to how we wanted to steer the car.

As a player, I could choose how I felt my character would reach in a situation, what they would pursue, where they would go. AS A PLAYER, I was crafting the story I wanted to create through my choices by using the achievement system as a tool. We are wholly and completely aware that we are achieving things AS A PLAYER- but we are doing it on independent characters to create each story. Having my choices AS A PLAYER made null by AWA to the point where, in some cases, I cannot even choose alternate endings to quests in order to pursue independent paths for different characters is unacceptable. Yes, we are the ones achieving things- on characters we crafted as individuals, and having our achievements and efforts on those individuals AS PLAYERS removed to the point where our accounts have become a seamless mush without add-ons is ridiculous. I can't track -what I as a player need to track-

Yes, indeed THE PLAYER is achieving things, and THE PLAYER is very annoyed that they can no longer do so on a per-character basis. We've had this quoted at us so many times, and its a huge misconception as to how we actually feel and what we actually want. So, yes, I agree- the player does achieve things! And as such, as players, we wanted to be able to do that multiple times on separate characters in order to make alternate choices so that we, as players, could craft individual stories, not have the entire account treated as if every single character we make is part of some kind of weird meta.

I as the player behind the wheel, I want to steer the car, not have it set on per-determined tracks for me from the moment of character creation simply because I once made a choice in the past while driving a different car.

We know as players we're achieving things. We're participating in an act of creation when we play the game, create characters, and tell their stories. We also know that one day the servers will go down, because we aren't playing with a detachment from reality, and that it isn't permanent. But for so long as it is here, we were using the game as a tool to create, and removing independent character achievements hinders that.

And, since the subject has been brought up, all things in life are temporal. That doesn't keep you from feeling for the people you love even though they will one day pass, admiring a tree even though a time will come when its leaves will wilt and the strength in its limbs will rot away, loving a pet though it's life may be shorter than your own....or loving a game and that which you create in it, or feeling loss when changes are made to something you care about, even though some day the servers will go down.

But part of that loss has come too soon, in the form of AWA, and for some people leaving the game forever, in their hearts the servers already have gone down.

We're human, we feel for things. No one who has fought against this should be ashamed of loving what they have created in this game or feeling strongly about it when they feel they have lost something within it. The characters may not be real, or the story, but the experience of playing and creating them as we did so was, as it was an act of creativity. The emotions invested in that act of creation were also real. It is like making a painting, or writing a story. Should an artist not feel upset if their work is defaced?

Don't ever let anyone invalidate those feelings or convince you they were wrong- you are all stronger than you know. You all fought well.

We will grieve, some of us will recover and continue playing as we find the means and the will to continue. Some of us will move on.

Certainly, many of us have the means beyond the game to create, and that is comfort to me as I continue to play. I have my writing and my art. But I still grieve for those who do not have that, and who feel that something of value to them has been destroyed. The fact that it was ultimately temporary does not alter that value. In fact, it only makes it more valuable to many of us.

I do see my achievements as player achievements. I am a player, creating different characters as individuals, telling stories through them for fun and my personal entertainment. Thinking of them as "Player achievements" does not suddenly make it all better for us.

We already did think of them that way.

But that's the power of story for those who put their hearts into it- we can feel strongly even for that which isn't real, because we had a hand in creating it. Strong emotion is part of the driving force behind imagination. I do not expect everyone to understand or feel the same. But I expect those that do feel the same, know exactly what I mean. We know very well it is our hands and our hearts that crafted the characters we bring to life for our entertainment on the screen.

Very moving. I hope you will find peace at some point.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · March 2022

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

show previous quotes

vindex9ona wrote: »

Caroloces wrote: »

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

Prior to this update, my lovely Orc, Mandanor, did not "forget" that he had achieved Mages Guild Skill Master. It was evident in his achievements. If I logged onto a different character, I would see that character's achievements, and not Mandanor's. I was a classroom teacher before I retired. If I gave "Johnny" a 100 on a spelling test, that score was not forgotten once I gave "Jane" an 85. It would be ludicrous to give "Johnny" a 100 on his test and have that show up as the score for all of my students! And that is exactly the scenario that is taking place in ESO with this update.

This is an online game. At some point the servers will be shut down forever and all characters and their achievements will be lost.
Our comments have nothing to do with cruelty or lack of empathy, but with an healthy relationship with life and the difference between a game and reality.

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

All achievements are and have always been player ones fundamentally. Because you, the player, is the only thing real and the one that did all of it in game. And since it’s a game, you did it all for fun and that’s all that matters in the end.
[snip]

[snip]

[Minor edit for nonconstructive comment.]

Those of us who are impacted by this update have had similar things repeated at us plenty of times through our entire battle to prevent this update from happening in its current form, and every single time someone repeats "It's the player not the character" at us, it comes from the same place of completely and totally misunderstanding how we think and play. It has nothing to do with the difference between "a game and reality". None of us were sitting here thinking our characters could act without our input, no matter how beloved our characters may be.

Since I have had to repeat myself multiple times to re-explain the fact that we know the difference between ourselves and our characters I will quote myself instead of re-typing the entire thing over again.
show previous quotes

As for those still using the "the player achieves things not the character" argument, as a player, I'd like to be able to actually track my characters progress on a new alt without jumping through hoops in order to do so. Having the zone guide already filled in for certain things on new characters is unacceptable, and although addons have been created to solve the issue, it should not have been one to begin with. What has been implemented is not QOL, it's an inconvenience. We used to have a working system where you could easily see, as a player, what you have and have not done on a new character in terms of delves and bosses. Now we don't.

And on that subject, going off on a bit of a tangent, as someone who would have liked to retain independent character tracking for story purposes, I know very well as a player I'm the one driving my characters behind the wheel. So does everyone else in this thread who has had "the player achieves things, not the character" repeated at them. We're aware of that. Why? Because we're the one creating a story through our characters, and having that independent tracking gave us, AS A PLAYER BEHIND THE WHEEL, the ability to make choices as to how we wanted to steer the car.

As a player, I could choose how I felt my character would reach in a situation, what they would pursue, where they would go. AS A PLAYER, I was crafting the story I wanted to create through my choices by using the achievement system as a tool. We are wholly and completely aware that we are achieving things AS A PLAYER- but we are doing it on independent characters to create each story. Having my choices AS A PLAYER made null by AWA to the point where, in some cases, I cannot even choose alternate endings to quests in order to pursue independent paths for different characters is unacceptable. Yes, we are the ones achieving things- on characters we crafted as individuals, and having our achievements and efforts on those individuals AS PLAYERS removed to the point where our accounts have become a seamless mush without add-ons is ridiculous. I can't track -what I as a player need to track-

Yes, indeed THE PLAYER is achieving things, and THE PLAYER is very annoyed that they can no longer do so on a per-character basis. We've had this quoted at us so many times, and its a huge misconception as to how we actually feel and what we actually want. So, yes, I agree- the player does achieve things! And as such, as players, we wanted to be able to do that multiple times on separate characters in order to make alternate choices so that we, as players, could craft individual stories, not have the entire account treated as if every single character we make is part of some kind of weird meta.

I as the player behind the wheel, I want to steer the car, not have it set on per-determined tracks for me from the moment of character creation simply because I once made a choice in the past while driving a different car.

We know as players we're achieving things. We're participating in an act of creation when we play the game, create characters, and tell their stories. We also know that one day the servers will go down, because we aren't playing with a detachment from reality, and that it isn't permanent. But for so long as it is here, we were using the game as a tool to create, and removing independent character achievements hinders that.

And, since the subject has been brought up, all things in life are temporal. That doesn't keep you from feeling for the people you love even though they will one day pass, admiring a tree even though a time will come when its leaves will wilt and the strength in its limbs will rot away, loving a pet though it's life may be shorter than your own....or loving a game and that which you create in it, or feeling loss when changes are made to something you care about, even though some day the servers will go down.

But part of that loss has come too soon, in the form of AWA, and for some people leaving the game forever, in their hearts the servers already have gone down.

We're human, we feel for things. No one who has fought against this should be ashamed of loving what they have created in this game or feeling strongly about it when they feel they have lost something within it. The characters may not be real, or the story, but the experience of playing and creating them as we did so was, as it was an act of creativity. The emotions invested in that act of creation were also real. It is like making a painting, or writing a story. Should an artist not feel upset if their work is defaced?

Don't ever let anyone invalidate those feelings or convince you they were wrong- you are all stronger than you know. You all fought well.

We will grieve, some of us will recover and continue playing as we find the means and the will to continue. Some of us will move on.

Certainly, many of us have the means beyond the game to create, and that is comfort to me as I continue to play. I have my writing and my art. But I still grieve for those who do not have that, and who feel that something of value to them has been destroyed. The fact that it was ultimately temporary does not alter that value. In fact, it only makes it more valuable to many of us.

I do see my achievements as player achievements. I am a player, creating different characters as individuals, telling stories through them for fun and my personal entertainment. Thinking of them as "Player achievements" does not suddenly make it all better for us.

We already did think of them that way.

But that's the power of story for those who put their hearts into it- we can feel strongly even for that which isn't real, because we had a hand in creating it. Strong emotion is part of the driving force behind imagination. I do not expect everyone to understand or feel the same. But I expect those that do feel the same, know exactly what I mean. We know very well it is our hands and our hearts that crafted the characters we bring to life for our entertainment on the screen.

By the 8 divines, I wish I could give you 1,000 awesome.
That was so well written! Thank You!
So you get a 1,000 HUZZAHS!!

TX12001rwb17_ESO · March 2022

[snip]

ACW at least has now given me the motivation to actually do them, I know there was a lot of achievements my main would never beable to get (like the Werewolf achievements because he is a Vampire and has been one longer then most people have even been playing ESO) and now he can have them, same with the thieving achievements, he is no thief.

[Edit for minor bait.]

Alvar · March 2022

Caroloces wrote: »

I understand the concerns about the performance hits that achievements take. I actually feel that I could have lived with the AWA if it had not affected the Zone Guides.

Oddly, the 'fix' for performance hits for achievements seems much worse than the 'original' performance hit.

kargen27 · March 2022

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

I really suggest you to see them as "player achievements" since in the end that's what they are. You have completed those things as a player, the character you were controlling is only the medium through which you did it.

You, as the player, completed those 30 unique quests in Skyrim in 2020, and this is what the game is reflecting now. You can still re-do them all with your new character, the re-playability is still there if that's what you like to do in the game, but you've already accomplished it back then, that's all the achievement says.

People keep saying this but you could not complete anything without a character. It is a team effort between you and your character. Letting another character take credit for something it was not involved with seems wrong. That aside I really wanted to eventually finish the hunter trophies on my main. I was getting really close. When I had some time waiting for trials or some other event to start I would spend time slaughtering mass amounts of something to earn a trophy. I might not give it a go for a month or more and then spend an hour or so for a few days in a row.
The change finished those achievements for me. None of my characters earned them and now none can. I don't feel like I earned them or any sense of accomplishment knowing across my account they are finished. Not done as that implies I did them but finished in that they no longer exist to be done.
Same with fishing. I had multiple characters working toward becoming a master. Now they are all masters and some of them have never seen a pole.
I understand why some wanted account wide achievements. They play different than I do. The problem is the game has been wrecked for me to make it better?? for them. I don't understand why their play style is suddenly deemed so much more important than mine.
They say it is because of performance issues. I hope that is true and we see significant improvement. If not then it was and is the worst move made by the team so far. They have alienated a lot of players and taken away a very popular way to play our way.

deleted221106-002999 · March 2022

@Caroloces thank you for sharing your detailed reflections.

Your experience was mirrored countless times by many and diverse players in the 90+ pages pts feedback thread which were essentially ignored.

Most were quite ok with the idea of a separate account-wide achievement record as an additon to what we had enjoyed for years with character specifics. In short, most agreed BOTH was the best way.

Instead this is what we have and 'QOL' is lightyears away from actual experience.

I don't want to jump on devs etc., despite the 'we told you so' truth but I would like some very honest and honourable acknowledgement from zos that they have made a terrible mistake with this awa implementation and just roll it back now so that some semblance of this elder scrolls game we love can be restored and enjoyed and played and replayed as it should be.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 2022

@Sylvermynx @wenchmore420b14_ESO Thank you for your kind words

@Caroloces I also want to add my voice to those of others here to thank you for your well thought out input. Although the ship may have already sailed on AWA, I think such stories are important. Both for ZOS to hear, as a company, and as validation for those of us who feel the same way as you do. My father is also in his 70's and enjoyed reading your post. Even though he does not visit or participate in the forums, I showed it to him because it made him happy to see his own life experiences reflected in yours and how he plays ESO.

Jeffrey530 · March 2022

kargen27 wrote: »

show previous quotes

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

I really suggest you to see them as "player achievements" since in the end that's what they are. You have completed those things as a player, the character you were controlling is only the medium through which you did it.

You, as the player, completed those 30 unique quests in Skyrim in 2020, and this is what the game is reflecting now. You can still re-do them all with your new character, the re-playability is still there if that's what you like to do in the game, but you've already accomplished it back then, that's all the achievement says.

People keep saying this but you could not complete anything without a character. It is a team effort between you and your character. Letting another character take credit for something it was not involved with seems wrong. That aside I really wanted to eventually finish the hunter trophies on my main. I was getting really close. When I had some time waiting for trials or some other event to start I would spend time slaughtering mass amounts of something to earn a trophy. I might not give it a go for a month or more and then spend an hour or so for a few days in a row.
The change finished those achievements for me. None of my characters earned them and now none can. I don't feel like I earned them or any sense of accomplishment knowing across my account they are finished. Not done as that implies I did them but finished in that they no longer exist to be done.
Same with fishing. I had multiple characters working toward becoming a master. Now they are all masters and some of them have never seen a pole.
I understand why some wanted account wide achievements. They play different than I do. The problem is the game has been wrecked for me to make it better?? for them. I don't understand why their play style is suddenly deemed so much more important than mine.
They say it is because of performance issues. I hope that is true and we see significant improvement. If not then it was and is the worst move made by the team so far. They have alienated a lot of players and taken away a very popular way to play our way.

Eh I can use your characters to get the same achievements. They are mere tools.

Kesstryl · March 2022

vindex9ona wrote: »

show previous quotes

Caroloces wrote: »

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

Prior to this update, my lovely Orc, Mandanor, did not "forget" that he had achieved Mages Guild Skill Master. It was evident in his achievements. If I logged onto a different character, I would see that character's achievements, and not Mandanor's. I was a classroom teacher before I retired. If I gave "Johnny" a 100 on a spelling test, that score was not forgotten once I gave "Jane" an 85. It would be ludicrous to give "Johnny" a 100 on his test and have that show up as the score for all of my students! And that is exactly the scenario that is taking place in ESO with this update.

This is an online game. At some point the servers will be shut down forever and all characters and their achievements will be lost.
Our comments have nothing to do with cruelty or lack of empathy, but with an healthy relationship with life and the difference between a game and reality.

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

All achievements are and have always been player ones fundamentally. Because you, the player, is the only thing real and the one that did all of it in game. And since it’s a game, you did it all for fun and that’s all that matters in the end.
[snip]

[snip]

[Minor edit for nonconstructive comment.]

You do know that people play in different ways, and for some the fun is in the immersion, right? So having the game break the 4th wall and see through our alts as us the player is exactly what we did NOT want! Telling an RPer to see their characters as avatars of themselves just disrespects a type of gameplay that, believe it or not, many more utilize than you think. We just don't stream it for the masses.

Sylvermynx · March 2022

Kesstryl wrote: »

You do know that people play in different ways, and for some the fun is in the immersion, right? So having the game break the 4th wall and see through our alts as us the player is exactly what we did NOT want! Telling an RPer to see their characters as avatars of themselves just disrespects a type of gameplay that, believe it or not, many more utilize than you think. We just don't stream it for the masses.

Regardless that I'm on "the other side" here..... I do get what you are saying. ESO isn't my immersion outlet; that would be first, my writing, and then Skyrim and Oblivion.

I really REALLY wish this hadn't happened the way it did. Because if all of you affected quit playing.... I might lose this game - with not any glimmer of TES VI in sight....

Selfish, I know. Sorry.

peacenote · March 2022

ADarklore wrote: »

It's interesting... people are always complaining, "Fix your servers... improve performance" and when they finally start trying to do just that... "oh wait, achievements are more important than performance". If servers have 'billions' of achievements to store and constantly access... I can understand how this is a HUGE drain on performance and server processes. So I applaud ZOS for trying to do whatever they can to improve performance- not only for 'today' but also so they can continue to add more content and whatever comes along with it.

As for zone guides, skyshards, etc... I'm sure, eventually, these things will be resolved as I'm sure there are another way of keeping track of these other than through achievements. Achievements are probably the EASIEST way of tracking, but I'm betting there are other ways that just need to be implemented by addon authors.

The problem with this perspective is that they haven't "finally" just started. I forget which year was the year of performance but I know that it has come and gone and we are for sure in a new one. We've seen all kinds of other changes, including massive experiments in Cyrodiil all the way down to the removal of historical mail. Plus, unlike many of the changes which were immediately shared to be part of performance improvements, this implementation of AwA was sold as "the feature we were asking for" only, with performance being mentioned after pages and pages of concerns and a long silence by ZOS. So not only is there a lot of skepticism about whether this, in fact, was ever about performance or only a cover story, but lots of us who have weathered the bad performance for years are now saying "but at what cost?" I absolutely guarantee you that if ZOS made an announcement at the beginning of the "year of performance," and explained that this was the only way to get improvements, and then, after implementation, performance was clearly much improved, a lot of the angst about this change would not exist or at least be very tempered compared to what it is right now. But to many it feels like the one thing that should be sacred in an MMO (character progress data) is now just yet another thing being sacrificed to the performance gods which never seem satisfied and never take the offerings and actually, you know, improve performance. Plus, to say that this is being done to add new things only pits players against each other more, which is awful for the community. Every new thing (right now it's the card game) will be criticized mightily as being seen as contributing to this loss. And it didn't have to be a loss! I'm sure there are ways where achievements could have been reworked, data could have been retained, and performance gains still realized.

Also only PC users can have add-ons, so that's not a good solution for something this core to the game (although, being a PC user myself, I appreciate very much the add-on authors who have stepped up to help with all of this!)

vindex9ona wrote: »

show previous quotes

Caroloces wrote: »

vindex9ona wrote: »

For every player that feels this way, there is one that feels happy about not having the game suddenly "forget" all I've done in it since 2014 every time I log on a different character (playing TES games since Arena and its 19 floppy disks here). The world is in balance and ZOS cannot make everybody happy at the same time.

Prior to this update, my lovely Orc, Mandanor, did not "forget" that he had achieved Mages Guild Skill Master. It was evident in his achievements. If I logged onto a different character, I would see that character's achievements, and not Mandanor's. I was a classroom teacher before I retired. If I gave "Johnny" a 100 on a spelling test, that score was not forgotten once I gave "Jane" an 85. It would be ludicrous to give "Johnny" a 100 on his test and have that show up as the score for all of my students! And that is exactly the scenario that is taking place in ESO with this update.

This is an online game. At some point the servers will be shut down forever and all characters and their achievements will be lost.
Our comments have nothing to do with cruelty or lack of empathy, but with an healthy relationship with life and the difference between a game and reality.

Switch point of view from character achievements to player achievements and the situation won’t look so bad anymore. In the end, once the game will shut down (no matter if it will be next week or in 10 more years), all that will be left will be your memories of a nice time playing it, and what you achieved in it as a player will only be your own personal thing, tracked nowhere.

All achievements are and have always been player ones fundamentally. Because you, the player, is the only thing real and the one that did all of it in game. And since it’s a game, you did it all for fun and that’s all that matters in the end.

Yes, it's true, at some point we'll all cease to exist, in addition to the game someday being shut down. I think you mean well, but essentially saying "someday it won't matter" is... well it's kind of true for just about everything in a way, isn't it? I often say to myself, things like "if it won't matter in 20 years, I'm not going to worry about it." So I can see your point. Except for two things.

1-- You're kind of saying that anyone who is unhappy with changes in a video game is not living a healthy life. It's a little insulting, because I'm unhappy with this change, and I've taken time to express my opinions, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to go on and enjoy the other aspects of my life or that I'm not reacting in a healthy way because I care(d) about this issue. Not to mention the fact that it's basically saying that no one should give feedback, ever, because it's just a game.

Spoiler

To go off on a bit of a tangent on this, I happen to be a manager of people in a place where coverage matters. Thus, we will end up in scenarios where people advocate for why their reason is more important. And I think all of those arguments are flawed and miss the fact that people have different priorities. If five people want the day off, and only three people can have it... what's the most "important" real life reason? To attend a wedding? To take a beloved pet to the vet? To attend the closing of your first home purchase? To attend a bowling league tournament for which the team has taken months to prepare? To go to a child's recital? And, if somewhere in that list, if the reason is "to stand in line for a video game release" or "to take the day to grind new gear so I'm ready for my raid"... who are we to judge? Whether or not someone is willing to step aside isn't about how important that thing is to US, it's about how important the thing is to the PERSON. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is importance. And fun. And meaningful activity. Is the person who needs to take their pet to the vet a bad person or living a less healthy life because they don't want to step aside for the colleague who wants to attend a wedding? Is the person who never takes any days off, and waited a year for the release of the game, a bad person because they don't want to step aside for the person who wants to attend their child's recital? Or a less healthy person? Does someone who prioritizes gaming suddenly seem more "healthy" if they have the possibility of becoming a streamer or making their living as a competitive player? Not everyone is blessed to have the things in life an outsider would deem "most important" and... some people might not even want those things!

Therefore it bothers me when people say "it's just a game" or something along those lines. It might be just a game to you. For someone else, it might be their distraction from a trauma, or their way to connect with a friend across the world, or simply a way to relieve stress that was fun and, now due to a change, is yet another stressor. People shed tears over movies and books and stories. Why should a video game be any different?

2-- While it may not matter in a full 20 years, one of the reasons I think this is a big deal is because ESO is a fun hobby for a lot of people, and has brought many people together. In my opinion, this isn't a change that is making one group of people happy over another. This is a change that will reduce re-playability for many people, which means customers playing the game for shorter lengths of time, which ultimately means the game will go into that server shut down state much faster... and it could have been avoided. MANY customers are dissatisfied and, even worse, feel unheard and disrespected by HOW this happened as much as anything. And that saddens folks who can see the large, complex picture and know that this is a bad place for things to be heading. Someday, none of this will matter, but in the meantime, why not hope and advocate for an ESO that can be the best it can be, for as many people as possible?

Destai · March 2022

I think the predictability of the yearly release cycle contributes to a feeling of malaise. I also think the less meaty content we're getting doesn't bode well. I understand we need some performance fixes and I'm happy they're finally doing it, I just worry about well-done it'll be, just seeing how they did with AWA.

schoober · March 2022

There's no turning back now, unfortunately. They screw up the vampire skill line and even after many negative feedback they didn't fix it. It's just an example of course, but you know what I'm reffering to.