Has ESO finally lost its allure?
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kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭On Monday I looked. My magplar, who has never been in The Reach except for vateshran hollows, has the "A Friend in need" achievement checked off. Only one of my characters ever got to talk to Melina Cassel, and I will never have another opportunity to do so on PC/NA.
While there aren't many of these, they exist and were utterly ignored in the rollout of awa despite repeated feedback on the PTS forum from early on.Edited by kringled_1 on March 16, 2022 1:32PM17 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
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There are bugs that are years old, I have little faith it'll be fixed.
They tend to prioritize game-breaking and quest-breaking bugs over inconveniences.
I expect it will be fixed before the chapter comes out.2 -
Nomadic_Atmoran✭✭✭✭✭
✭Odd how I never heard any Dev talk about the hit that performance was taking from achievements before all of this. I know I shouldn't be surprised by ZOS lack of care when it comes to this change. But nevertheless I am once again disappointed in it.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry - Laerinel Rhaev - Enrerion - Caius Berilius - Seylina Ithvala - Signa Squallrider - H'Vak the GrimjawlYynril Rothvani - Tenarei Rhaev - Bathes-In-Coin - Dazsh Ro Khar - Aredyhel - Reads-To-Frogs - Azjani Ma'LesKheshna gra-Gharbuk - Gallisten Bondurant - Aban Shahid Bakr - Etain Maquier - Atsu Kalame - Faulpia Severinus13 -
tmbrinks✭✭✭✭✭
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They tend to prioritize game-breaking and quest-breaking bugs over inconveniences.
I expect it will be fixed before the chapter comes out.
a year of gap closers broken in PvP isn't game breaking?
I wish I had your faith.The Unshattered - Tenacious Dreamer - Hurricane Herald - Godslayer - Dawnbringer - Gryphon Heart - Tick Tock Tormenter - Immortal Redeemer - Dro-m'Athra DestroyerThe Unchained - Oathsworn - Bedlam's Disciple - Temporal Tempest - Curator's Champion - Fist of Tava - Invader's Bane - Land, Air, and Sea Supremacy - Zero Regrets - Battlespire's Best - Bastion Breaker - Ardent Bibliophile - Subterranean Smasher - Bane of Thorns - True Genius - In Defiance of Death - No Rest for the Wicked - Nature's Wrath - Undying Endurance - Relentless Raider - Depths Defier - Apex Predator - Pure Lunacy - Mountain God - Leave No Bone Unbroken - CoS/RoM/BF/FH Challenger65,945 achievement points23 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
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a year of gap closers broken in PvP isn't game breaking?
I wish I had your faith.
I don't think they know how to fix that one.
Edit: I'm a magdk main so I get it. BGs are a gamble, it's one reason I don't do them often. At least in IC I can bar swap and go thru a door and it sometimes fixes it.Edited by sarahthes on March 16, 2022 1:44PM0 -
SerafinaWaterstar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just loving the patronising tone of some posts on here, (‘learn to play differently’ or ‘it makes no difference’ or ‘why focus on achievements just play’) that just shows they have not bothered to read or understand the views of others.
And just love the blind faith that the ‘bugs’ will be fixed.
(Sit down & relax, the armour must be getting heavy by now 😁)31 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
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As far as I'm aware there's a handful of epilogues that don't work. I expect these will be patched in the near future.
Good to know.
@tmbrinks is this the case, a small number of the epilogue? While I agree with this person that it is something that will get fixed. Saying there are stories that can no longer be done on alts, I was thinking it was a large number of very impactful stories.1 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
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Good to know.
@tmbrinks is this the case, a small number of the epilogue? While I agree with this person that it is something that will get fixed. Saying there are stories that can no longer be done on alts, I was thinking it was a large number of very impactful stories.
They might be able to fix the epilogs, haven't tested. They can't fix the serial npc interactions at all unless they revert those achievements to character specific and reset them.
It's a relatively small amount of the quest/story content and doesn't gate out skill points or other unlocks. But they can have substantial meaning to players.Edited by kringled_1 on March 16, 2022 1:53PM3 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭For me, it began with the year long story. After Elsweyr (imo) we had a huge drop off in quality with the writing with Greymoor, then Blackwood. I'm already bored with the idea of a card game (wooooo), and also the attitude that 'everything happens at the same time' is just silly and annoying.
The new player experience is just awful. Ending up with a new player in front of a bunch of portals with very little explanation and basically 'do what you want' is so lazy from what is supposed to be a narrative-driven game. The MSQ sets everything up, explains why you can't die and why skyshards are important and who the original big bad is, and you get to meet the Prophet and the rest of the companions, just let people have the option of going straight to the original tutorial. And then they get to say Davons Watch and immediately get deluged with loads of quest markers for all the chapters and DLC. It's a confusing mess which is NOT user-friendly.
And I'm sure that people much more knowledgeable than myself can talk about how PvP has been bad for years, how the PTS just gets ignored and the servers and game engine are made out of spit and sawdust, run by elderly hamsters. Oh and the game seems just based around the cash shop nowadays. Login rewards are meant to be REWARDS, and they ain't.
Just how much do they expect us to take? Sunk-cost fallacy can only bite so deep.
Roll on 6.1 and the expansion of trust dungeons I say.So they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.14 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭kringled_1 wrote: »
They might be able to fix the epilogs, haven't tested. They can't fix the serial npc interactions at all unless they revert those achievements to character specific and reset them.
It's a relatively small amount of the quest/story content and doesn't gate out skill points or other unlocks. But they can have substantial meaning to players.
Serial NPC? Is that like Mike the Liar? If so that is fairly tertiary.1 -
kringled_1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The Adoring Admirer (less than a year old), Melina Cassel, Choixth are the ones that I can bring to mind, but there are probably others. It's a series of interactions that are tracked by achievement only. It's not a critical game feature, sure. But people enjoyed these and now they are once per account.6 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They could probably switch them to being a staged quest instead, with the character having the achievement being the one to get credit. A handful of people may need to do the quest over on a few characters but I expect this won't be a large number of players.0 -
xXSilverDragonXx✭✭✭✭✭For me, it began with the year long story. After Elsweyr (imo) we had a huge drop off in quality with the writing with Greymoor, then Blackwood. I'm already bored with the idea of a card game (wooooo), and also the attitude that 'everything happens at the same time' is just silly and annoying.
The new player experience is just awful. Ending up with a new player in front of a bunch of portals with very little explanation and basically 'do what you want' is so lazy from what is supposed to be a narrative-driven game. The MSQ sets everything up, explains why you can't die and why skyshards are important and who the original big bad is, and you get to meet the Prophet and the rest of the companions, just let people have the option of going straight to the original tutorial. And then they get to say Davons Watch and immediately get deluged with loads of quest markers for all the chapters and DLC. It's a confusing mess which is NOT user-friendly.
I really love the new start, but there should be some information about each for new players. Does she not have any way to get news? Why not have someone that comes to the island tell them of things in the world. A brief input at each gate if you ask her what is going on here. Doesn't have to be huge monologue, but some clue. Then again, I'm not sure how I would summarize some of the factions myself and I've played them all a few times. But if you could ask her what she knows of what is happening where, that could be better for new players. Or if you could see into the gate before you go there, see some clips of things happening that would be better. Just pick something that is central to what is going on and make a little cinematic that shows you so you get a bit of a sense of it.0 -
wenchmore420b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore. For many people, change is hard... with MMOs change is literally every couple of months. Every change brings with it walls and walls of text of complaints, only to, a few months later, repeat the cycle. And yet, for all the complaints and 'I'm quitting' posts... ESO continues to roll on, bring in new players, and continue to develop new content. Also, the reality is, long term players are not what keeps ESO going... it's new players, buying new things, things that they don't already have. So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.
According to ZOS, AwA is both about QoL improvement for many (not all) players but also about improvements to server usage intending to be an investment for the overall health of the game long-term. Personally, I could care less about achievements... I don't play to 'win' or 'beat' the game, I don't play with a checklist... I play to complete the quests, to engage in fun battles, and see what new content ZOS is going to throw at us. IMO, each of my characters may be an individual, BUT... they aren't running around in the world to receive 'pats on the back' achievements... they are out there to help the people of the world. They don't walk around with a checklist of things to do which decides how good they are or decides what kind of person they are... they just DO things because they need/want to be done. That's how "I" play the game. Now, you might play differently, BUT... in the end, the game belongs to ZOS and they can make whatever decisions they feel is right for the continued health of the game. This isn't the first time a huge number of players disagreed with their changes and won't be the last.
I disagree.
Having been on forums since 2013, there has NEVER been a change that has divided and been SO negatively received.
Even One Tamriel didn't cause such a discussion.
The feedback thread is 93 pages, 2,800+ responses, 76,300+ views in LESS THAN 6 WEEKS!
No other thread in Forum History has hit that milestone in that short a time. The closest one was the Templar Thread from several years ago, and it didn't match what we have here.
As @ZOS_MattFiror said at the World Reveal, "We own the game, but you, the players, make it awesome".
And if you REALLY read the many threads, a majority DO NOT want this change. Even those who wanted AWA are against how ZoS released this train wreck of a change and appalled that they let it go live in this broken state.
I'm sorry you don't understand the play style of many of us. How the individual progress of our alts is important. Re-playability is important. How important alts personalities and game play are important. You just don't get that.
As far as "performance improvement", that is a sketchy excuse all the way around. If that was TRUELY the reason, the would have opened the World Reveal with it instead of using it as a 11th hour "pacifier" due to the backlash.
Just my 2 drakes...
Huzzah!
Edited by wenchmore420b14_ESO on March 16, 2022 5:05PMDrakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
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_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)26 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
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Serial NPC? Is that like Mike the Liar? If so that is fairly tertiary.
No, it's a new character being hailed as the saviour of Tamriel etc the moment he/she sets foot in the world for the first time. The new character is regarded by NPCs as having done all the things that the other characters on the account have done. That may not seem significant to some, but for those who play their characters as individuals it is the loss of their individual progression (and the means to track it) that is so important to them.17 -
Ishtarknows✭✭✭✭✭shadyjane62 wrote: »I am sitting here ready to cry because I am down to 3 chars after having had as many as 18. I have just finished doing endeavors and crafting on my main character and usually at this point doing crafting on my two alts.
Now I look at them and say to myself "what's the point" I don't need the stuff or the gold.
After crafting I would do a little pvp and do something on each of my others for variety. I was working on getting them all the skyshards which is a great way to travel over the entire map.
That is gone. Since my main has done them all the icons have disappeared and the addons no longer work.
I am ready to delete two level 50 chars because I can't see playing them anymore since everything is already done.
My husband says I'm ridiculous for feeling so bad over a game. But he has a new PS5 and loads of future gaming.
I don't see that future at the present time because ESO is all I play.
And this I suspect, is how they'll improve performance. Fewer characters, fewer players means servers do less work.
I find myself in the same boat as you. I need neither mats nor gold and I've stopped the daily crafting on my 18 characters. I only log in daily to list stuff in guild stores and do endeavours. It feels like the end of an era and I too am looking for a new game to play long term.Edited by Ishtarknows on March 16, 2022 3:28PM14 -
Stamicka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It’s been losing its allure for years now, especially if you are a PvPer or end game raider. This is definitely not a good year for ZOS. Performance has worsened all around, AwA was implemented poorly, and the major added feature will be a card game. We will see if they can get this “PvP fix” right, but I highly doubt it.
The only way things will improve is if people actually start to quit.PC NA and Xbox NA10 -
ArchangelIsraphel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In a year nobody will even be talking about AwA anymore. For many people, change is hard... with MMOs change is literally every couple of months. Every change brings with it walls and walls of text of complaints, only to, a few months later, repeat the cycle. And yet, for all the complaints and 'I'm quitting' posts... ESO continues to roll on, bring in new players, and continue to develop new content. Also, the reality is, long term players are not what keeps ESO going... it's new players, buying new things, things that they don't already have. So if ESO loses long-term players, it really isn't hurt all that bad financially... it isn't ESO+ that sustains ESO, it's Crown Store purchases.
According to ZOS, AwA is both about QoL improvement for many (not all) players but also about improvements to server usage intending to be an investment for the overall health of the game long-term. Personally, I could care less about achievements... I don't play to 'win' or 'beat' the game, I don't play with a checklist... I play to complete the quests, to engage in fun battles, and see what new content ZOS is going to throw at us. IMO, each of my characters may be an individual, BUT... they aren't running around in the world to receive 'pats on the back' achievements... they are out there to help the people of the world. They don't walk around with a checklist of things to do which decides how good they are or decides what kind of person they are... they just DO things because they need/want to be done. That's how "I" play the game. Now, you might play differently, BUT... in the end, the game belongs to ZOS and they can make whatever decisions they feel is right for the continued health of the game. This isn't the first time a huge number of players disagreed with their changes and won't be the last.
And once again, your posts show complete misrepresentation of how people feel about the achievement system and why they wanted those achievements to remain untouched for each individual character.
It was NEVER about receiving "pats on the back" or gauging "how good our characters are" or receiving some kind of imagined accolade. It was about using it as a tool for recording individual journeys and memories, logging the experience, almost like keeping a scrapbook or a journal. Most of us could care less about being "rewarded", but we do care about building character identity through the achievement system as it was a way to record the actions the player has chosen for them.
I'm glad you have your own way of playing the game. But having your own way of playing the game does not invalidate the needs of those who play it differently. No one play style is more "noble" or "right" than another.
And for those that DO want to feel a sense of reward from getting achievements- there is nothing wrong with that play style either. I don't know why so many posts insist upon the idea that it's somehow wrong to want to enjoy the experience of being rewarded for an action in a game, or why so many people seem to feel that doing things in a game without being rewarded is "better" or some kind of moral high ground. If people get a sense of fun from being rewarded, then so be it- I am glad that makes them happy, and no one has the right to tell them they shouldn't be, or that they should just be playing anyway without what gives them joy.
Legends never die
They're written down in eternity
But you'll never see the price it costs
The scars collected all their lives
When everything's lost, they pick up their hearts and avenge defeat
Before it all starts, they suffer through harm just to touch a dream
Oh, pick yourself up, 'cause
Legends never die19 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vulsahdaal wrote: »
Actually I think you have this all backward.
The people who are all about achievements, this was a good move for them. They have repeatedly complained about not wanting to play an alt because they dont want to get an achievement on an alt that their main doesnt have yet, OR they done want to play an alt because they HAVE to get 'mind numbing' achievements all over again.
Which at first it really puzzled me why it was so important to them that their main have every achievement possible, and any and all alts must also have every single achievement as well.
My thoughts were, who cares about achievements? Just play the game, and the achievements will come. Or they wont. Doesnt matter.
Then I realized that is just how they play the game. The achievements are the goal. It is the game. It is everything. The object is to beat the game, and you beat the game by getting all the achievements.
Again, this is the group that is happy. For these people, this change is overall a good change.
As for myself, Im in the second group you mention. I dont care about achievements. Seriously. My main who has been with me since early access has an achievement score of 7105/50120.
Im just here for as you put it, the stories. I enjoy the people I run with. Im not worried about getting every single achievement on every character, I just play the game. This is where I come to relax and enjoy myself. I would play whichever of my 15 characters I felt like, their stories and experiences WERE all vastly different so it was nice to have a choice.
But now this choice is gone. And since the update, Ive only logged on just once to collect the daily with my main and within that minute I realized I just couldnt do this I logged out.
For me, this change is NOT a good change.
BTW Im fully aware that I could continue to play my main with no issues, but its difficult for me to log in and see my other characters there and not being able to play them. Of course I could just delete them all except my main so I dont have to look at them, but cant bring myself to do that either.
So Im in a bad position. Ill probably do some things on my main, but the game has lost the allure for me. Ill probably just leave the game so I can keep the memories of my characters as they were, and move on to something different.
I know others have done the same, but what I find interesting is, the first group, the happy with the changes achievement hunting group, many from there will leave also.
With this change, ZOS brought the closer, if not to completion of their goal. To collect all the achievements. To beat the game. Once they have done this, the challenge is over. They will move on to the next as well.
Im really not sure what ZOs game plan here is, but I guess in the end it really doesnt matter.
I disagree. I am always trying to get the achievements on my main first (or more correctly, I always play everything on my main first). And I still think that this was a horrible move that cost me and others a lot, with no gain. I never wanted to have anything like this. Had it been a hybrid version that kept individual achievements as well I would have been fine with it, but this... this is just horrible.7 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
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As far as I'm aware there's a handful of epilogues that don't work. I expect these will be patched in the near future.
How exactly would they do that? They are bound to achievement completion. To fix them they would have to introduce new databases which would risk eating up whatever gains they had made from the AwA. So I don't exactly keep my hopes up for that.1 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
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The stories are still there. They have not changed. Nothing ruined.
Yes they are, as I see that many others have also pointed out.3 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »Just loving the patronising tone of some posts on here, (‘learn to play differently’ or ‘it makes no difference’ or ‘why focus on achievements just play’) that just shows they have not bothered to read or understand the views of others.
And just love the blind faith that the ‘bugs’ will be fixed.
(Sit down & relax, the armour must be getting heavy by now 😁)
Imagine if you had answered in kind in a thread where something that is important to them would be discussed. "Oh yeah, they are super nerfing sorcs/DKs, but you know, learn to play differently, or play another class!" *shudders*5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭dinokstrunz wrote: »Do you really think ZoS are going to start listening to its player base now? I've seen ZoS developers outright say "Never listen to people" on their social media accounts referring to feedback & complaints. These aren't the people who are interested in addressing their multitudes of issues within their game.
Nothing is ever going to change unless ZoS change but they've been saying they will improve for years now and guess what. they're still the same old silent ZoS. Pack your bags & leave is the best solution, knowing ZoS they probably want you to leave to.
"You know you don't have to be here right?"11 -
SilverBride✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The stories are still there. They have not changed. Nothing ruined.
Imagine that every summer you and your family take a road trip across the country. Even though you've taken the same trip before you really look forward to revisiting the places that you enjoyed. But now your roadmap has been taken away from you and you have no way to track where you have been or where you still need to go to experience the full trip again.
Sure, the places are still there...Edited by SilverBride on March 16, 2022 4:12PMPCNA9 -
alberichtano✭✭✭✭✭
✭SilverBride wrote: »
Imagine that every summer you and your family take a road trip across the country. Even though you've taken the same trip before you really look forward to revisiting the places that you enjoyed. But now your roadmap has been taken away from you and you have no way to track where you have been or where you still need to go to experience the full trip again.
Sure, the places are still there...
I would rather compare it to a single player game. You have played it through once, and it was great, but when you restart the game a second time, everything with our first playthrough is done. All secret places marked on the map, all NPCs hailing you as the hero your first character was, everything is old and used up. And sure, you can go out and explore, but everything is already marked and found, so there is nothing of that first, empty map to explore.10 -
ArchangelIsraphel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Imagine that every summer you and your family take a road trip across the country. Even though you've taken the same trip before you really look forward to revisiting the places that you enjoyed. But now your roadmap has been taken away from you and you have no way to track where you have been or where you still need to go to experience the full trip again.
Sure, the places are still there...
Good metaphor! Agreed!
And not only that, but all of your family photo albums from past trips have been merged into one, and someone deleted a ton of your pictures because they decided you didn't need to have more than one photo of the same place as it changed and developed over time with different family members. One picture of your sister is enough, you don't need that one of your brother too.
Then, to make matters worse, other people start telling you that you shouldn't NEED pictures of your brother to recall having fun with him at special moments in your life, you should just do things without the "reward" of photos to remember him.
Then there's the ones that will tell you "you do know you aren't your brother right? You went on vacation, so you only need pictures of yourself, not the things you cared about or did."
Perhaps I'm going to an extreme but those who understand will get it.Legends never die
They're written down in eternity
But you'll never see the price it costs
The scars collected all their lives
When everything's lost, they pick up their hearts and avenge defeat
Before it all starts, they suffer through harm just to touch a dream
Oh, pick yourself up, 'cause
Legends never die16 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Those of us who don't mind the changes also deserve to be heard, that's the main reason I'm posting on this thread.
I was actually very against account wide achievements before ZOS announced it but I'm totally okay with it now that it's been implemented.
Game updates always release with bugs because I don't think there's a company out there that has the resources to release a bug-free product. Some are better than ZOS, some are considerably worse. Do I think this could have been rolled out better? Yes. Do I think it's a disaster that makes the game unplayable because of a handful of scenarios that will most likely be fixed in the coming weeks? No.2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SilverBride wrote: »
Imagine that every summer you and your family take a road trip across the country. Even though you've taken the same trip before you really look forward to revisiting the places that you enjoyed. But now your roadmap has been taken away from you and you have no way to track where you have been or where you still need to go to experience the full trip again.
Sure, the places are still there...
The map is still there. I have opened it up and see it clearly. TES is much about searching the map for areas to quest. The stories are still there. So the road trip rocks as it always has though some of the stories do lose their luster after playing them a few times.1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love the account wide achievements so much. Already joined a new dungeon group to start hunting achievements. I play so many alts that achievements lost all meaning to me years ago.
Now that they are account wide, I feel like I can actually make progress on my achievement point total. Even something like being able to work towards Master Angler while I am waiting in BG queues, potentially on multiple toons, is amazing. Oh and now I want to play BGs for achievements. Never cared because my quester is not my main PVPer. I also play my main quester as a lawful good character, and did DB and TG quests on a different toon. Never bothered to do all the nuanced achievements, because who cared, the point total on my evil NB was laughable. Now, I am going to go back and do them all. I could go on and on with examples.
Sure, I wish titles were tied to the character, and there are certain annoyances with they way this was implemented (more of a sledgehammer than a scalpel), but I view it as mostly a very positive change. My playtime is going to increase significantly because of this. I have had one foot out the door for a few years now.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on March 16, 2022 6:24PM6 -
wenchmore420b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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The map is still there. I have opened it up and see it clearly. TES is much about searching the map for areas to quest. The stories are still there. So the road trip rocks as it always has though some of the stories do lose their luster after playing them a few times.
Lost it's luster?
Take a new toon to Orsinium. Rather than getting to experience the involvement of rebuilding it, Orsinium is already done.
Yes. The map is still there, but it does not show what you have and haven't done. Just will show all is done.
This is way beyond "lack luster".Drakon Koryn~Oryndill, Rogue~Mage,- CP ~Doesn't matter any more
NA / PC Beta Member since Nov 2013
GM~Conclave-of-Shadows, EP Social Guild, ~Proud member of: The Wandering Merchants, Phoenix Rising, Imperial Trade Union & Celestials of Nirn
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"Not All Who Wander are Lost"
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