Dark Convergence Online

TechMaybeHic

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

If it makes you feel better, we Americans (and I usually have double digit ping when not in Cyro Primetime) are pressing skills 4 times as well. Some skills do work better than others. I found myself fantasizing about a resto heavy attack build, because it seems to be about the most reliable thing. Haha. AOEs, both ground and spam, do seem to work better than anything that requires a target.

You know, its funny. We keep using the term Lag, and I am starting to think that is not the correct term. To me, Lag implies a delay. This is not lag. If I press a skill once, lag would imply that it should eventually go off, just with a delay. It doesnt...

A lot of it is range of attack or other position requirements and you are just not where you are yourself so; that would explain targeted abilities; but sometimes even aimless AOE won't go off either just not as often

ashadris

Its still buggy as hell, roll/dodge/block doesnt really work when there are 3 colossuses casted on your head, needs a tuning

Kalle_Demos

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

This. ALOT of y'all are missing the forest for the trees. DC isn't a problem. The broken state of PVP is. Lets say y'all get what you want in this instance. DC is nerfed into uselessness like so many other popular and useful components that players liked and had fun with, thanks to a loud handful of discontents.

You remember 'FUN' right? What's the next move? You switch your focus to the next fun thing? All the while you still have massive lag. De-Sync and skills not firing. You still have imbalance that also wrecks PVE. And when things do get bad enough and you get around to criticizing Zos for poor performance, they can just point to the long list of fun things they destroyed to appease you.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Well in the interest of transparency, I do think this set can be blocked. I spent an evening intentionally jumping into the AOE from this set.

What I am fairly certain of at this point (all anecdotal):

-The pull can be blocked (lag can of course be an issue). Experiences may vary in primetime, but when lag was not crazy, I was able to block the pull.

-The pull doesnt care if you are CC immune. I have raced towards a DC both after chugging an Immov pot or breaking free from another stun. You get pulled. This IMO is the single biggest issue.

-Breaking free from the stun does seem to grant CC immunity, but again, the pull can just pull you again because it doesnt care if you are immune. The stun is the second biggest issue, but that is perhaps as much about lag and the current state of Cyro. Now of course, CC immunity in general is very buggy, so again, experiences may vary. Either way, I think its a bad combo. If you want a pull that doesnt respect CC immunity, dont combine it with a stun. If you want the stun, then the pull should respect your CC immunity after you break free so you cant get ping ponged between multiple DCs.

-The set can absolutely pull people off keeps. Come on ZOS, how many times have we been through this.

-The pull doesnt seem to care about your dodge rolls in regards to the pull. Dodge roll can certainly get you out of the AOE before the pull, but say there are multiple on the ground, I have seen this set pull me as a tight little ball as I was mid roll. I think it is safe to say that while the pull is blockable, it is undodgable.

-The pull area seems slightly bigger than the ground AOE suggests. I would stand just outside the circle, sometimes it would pull sometimes it did not. Also seen it pull from way outside the AOE, so this could just be a desync issue.

Would certainly love any feedback if any of that is inaccurate. More information means better able to counterplay this dumpster fire of a set...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

This. ALOT of y'all are missing the forest for the trees. DC isn't a problem. The broken state of PVP is. Lets say y'all get what you want in this instance. DC is nerfed into uselessness like so many other popular and useful components that players liked and had fun with, thanks to a loud handful of discontents.

You remember 'FUN' right? What's the next move? You switch your focus to the next fun thing? All the while you still have massive lag. De-Sync and skills not firing. You still have imbalance that also wrecks PVE. And when things do get bad enough and you get around to criticizing Zos for poor performance, they can just point to the long list of fun things they destroyed to appease you.

I think you are oversimplifying that. Do I think lag compounds the problem with this set? Yes, absolutely. That said, I am also very comfortable in my position that it was very irresponsible to introduce a set like this in the current state of cyrodiil. I also dont believe its a loud handful of discontents. I cant remember the last time there was this much pushback against a single set.

Also, just because a lot of people use it, doesn't mean everybody likes it. It is an overperforming set, full stop. A certain % of the population is always going to run whatever the latest OP meta craze is. In fact, I would argue that the unusually high percent of people running this set shows just how out of line it really is.

Lag is not causing this to pull people off keeps. Lag is not the reason we have a lazy AOE pull that doesn't play by the established rules of crowd control. Lag is not the only reason that this set has greatly empowers ball groups, something a lot of people, myself included, fundamentally oppose. If we fixed lag tomorrow, ball groups are still running this set as is because it makes them MUCH stronger. Just because half of Cyro is running it, doesnt mean it was a good design choice.

WreckfulAbandon

The pull is the issue. It's annoying that an auto bomb set would even have a snare attached to it but a wonky pull that ignores game mechanics is a no from me dawg.

Hurricane no longer pulls people out of stealth?

Crystal Frags still has a minimum travel time but Caluurians doesn't now?

Dawnbreaker has a cast time but it's ok if a NB wants to hit with 4-5 procs/skills from stealth?

Dark Convergence was added to the game after all the negative feedback and took a full patch cycle of complaining to only slightly nerf? So they decided one pull on an auto bomb set was balanced?

Oh, and feel free to stack multiple instances of the same heal on people still, totally balanced.

This game is a mess when everything even works. But let's reinvent the wheel again and roll the dice on what sweeping changes will be introduced next. 8 years in and they are still making changes like its in beta.

Kalle_Demos

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

This. ALOT of y'all are missing the forest for the trees. DC isn't a problem. The broken state of PVP is. Lets say y'all get what you want in this instance. DC is nerfed into uselessness like so many other popular and useful components that players liked and had fun with, thanks to a loud handful of discontents.

You remember 'FUN' right? What's the next move? You switch your focus to the next fun thing? All the while you still have massive lag. De-Sync and skills not firing. You still have imbalance that also wrecks PVE. And when things do get bad enough and you get around to criticizing Zos for poor performance, they can just point to the long list of fun things they destroyed to appease you.

I think you are oversimplifying that. Do I think lag compounds the problem with this set? Yes, absolutely. That said, I am also very comfortable in my position that it was very irresponsible to introduce a set like this in the current state of cyrodiil. I also dont believe its a loud handful of discontents. I cant remember the last time there was this much pushback against a single set.

Also, just because a lot of people use it, doesn't mean everybody likes it. It is an overperforming set, full stop. A certain % of the population is always going to run whatever the latest OP meta craze is. In fact, I would argue that the unusually high percent of people running this set shows just how out of line it really is.

Lag is not causing this to pull people off keeps. Lag is not the reason we have a lazy AOE pull that doesn't play by the established rules of crowd control. Lag is not the only reason that this set has greatly empowers ball groups, something a lot of people, myself included, fundamentally oppose. If we fixed lag tomorrow, ball groups are still running this set as is because it makes them MUCH stronger. Just because half of Cyro is running it, doesnt mean it was a good design choice.

Forest for the trees. I'm not at all opposed to reasonable adjustments to an over-performing Set, nor am I invested in the fate of DC in general. It's the larger principle and pattern at play. DC is just the latest shiny object that when caught will blow up in the community's face. And the overarching problems plaguing PVP will remain.

Last time it was Proc Sets and EVERYBODY was bashed over the head with the Nerf Bat. Before that it was Stealth Bonuses and now Bosmer are extinct. What's next? Already people in this thread are calling for an end to CC in PVP. Apply history and you can predict massive negative impacts to PVE too should that build momentum.

I think the larger community would be more sympathetic to threads such as this had they not repeatedly lead to negative impacts on their gameplay. Frankly, there is a air of disingenuousness on this topic as there was with the ones mentioned above. There is a not small disparity in this very thread about experiences with this one set. Again, it's not DC that's concerning. It's the larger narrative forming here, taking aim at larger targets and that is becoming problematic.

Vulkunne

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

After equipping a gold set of dark convergence and watching my boneyard suck players in I no longer want this set balanced. I’ve joined the ranks of the abusers.

The icing on the cake is how glacial colossus sucks players in too, and the colossus stun still works even though players were just stunned by the dark convergence proc.

😂

lol

The ugly truth of the matter is Dark Convergence is just a well-known offender due to its notable visual effects and the fact it pulls people. There are other sets out there that are far more abusive than Dark Convergence.

And they are? Seriously, how about some examples? This set clearly violates the established rules of CC. How can anybody be okay with this and keep a straight face?

I remember the torug pact meta when ST dots could trigger multiple enchant procs. Everybody in PVP ran it for like a week. This fix was fast and drastic. They fundamentally changed how enchants proc'ed (only continuously apply with ground DOTS to keep PVE tanks happy).

Tons of middle ground approaches here. If it where me, I would ensure the the pull is blockable (I honestly have no idea if it is or if this is just a lag issue) and that it wont pull a CC immuned appointment (certainly seems it can currently, which is inconsistent with every other pull in the game). Seems straight forward.

I would also probably remove the stun, at least in the short term. In a high lag environment, CC break is so unreliable. It would still require a roll dodge to get out of it. I am always hesitant to balance around lag, but frankly, ZOS should know that the current performance in Cyro only compounds the problems with this set, a set that seems to play by its own rules.

Hey there just saw your reply.

So I read what you said and same for others on here. I get it and this Dark Convergence business used to seriously frustrate and anger me as well.

However aside from being pulled from siege on walls, I can't really remember any time in recent history where I died to Dark Convergence. Now before I woke up, this thing was kicking my teeth in, but no more.

Now, all of my builds for Cyrodiil are either in part or in whole made of reliable Heavy Armor sets with Sword & Board. Anytime I get pulled the first thing I do is block and relax. Seriously. DON'T PANIC. Just block and relax, find out where it pulled you to. If you can just start walking away, if your health is low try dodge rolling away BEFORE it detonates, otherwise you'll have to hold block and keep walking. Generally healers nearby can keep you alive while you block.

For me Dark Convergence is really a non issue and hardly a threat. Other sets are much more dangerous and exploitive but the lag in Cyrodiil is so bad we gotta use what will work for us in spite of lag.

RevJJ

Vulkunne wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

After equipping a gold set of dark convergence and watching my boneyard suck players in I no longer want this set balanced. I’ve joined the ranks of the abusers.

The icing on the cake is how glacial colossus sucks players in too, and the colossus stun still works even though players were just stunned by the dark convergence proc.

😂

lol

The ugly truth of the matter is Dark Convergence is just a well-known offender due to its notable visual effects and the fact it pulls people. There are other sets out there that are far more abusive than Dark Convergence.

And they are? Seriously, how about some examples? This set clearly violates the established rules of CC. How can anybody be okay with this and keep a straight face?

I remember the torug pact meta when ST dots could trigger multiple enchant procs. Everybody in PVP ran it for like a week. This fix was fast and drastic. They fundamentally changed how enchants proc'ed (only continuously apply with ground DOTS to keep PVE tanks happy).

Tons of middle ground approaches here. If it where me, I would ensure the the pull is blockable (I honestly have no idea if it is or if this is just a lag issue) and that it wont pull a CC immuned appointment (certainly seems it can currently, which is inconsistent with every other pull in the game). Seems straight forward.

I would also probably remove the stun, at least in the short term. In a high lag environment, CC break is so unreliable. It would still require a roll dodge to get out of it. I am always hesitant to balance around lag, but frankly, ZOS should know that the current performance in Cyro only compounds the problems with this set, a set that seems to play by its own rules.

Hey there just saw your reply.

So I read what you said and same for others on here. I get it and this Dark Convergence business used to seriously frustrate and anger me as well.

However aside from being pulled from siege on walls, I can't really remember any time in recent history where I died to Dark Convergence. Now before I woke up, this thing was kicking my teeth in, but no more.

Now, all of my builds for Cyrodiil are either in part or in whole made of reliable Heavy Armor sets with Sword & Board. Anytime I get pulled the first thing I do is block and relax. Seriously. DON'T PANIC. Just block and relax, find out where it pulled you to. If you can just start walking away, if your health is low try dodge rolling away BEFORE it detonates, otherwise you'll have to hold block and keep walking. Generally healers nearby can keep you alive while you block.

For me Dark Convergence is really a non issue and hardly a threat. Other sets are much more dangerous and exploitive but the lag in Cyrodiil is so bad we gotta use what will work for us in spite of lag.

If one set requires everyone to start wearing heavy armor and using S&B to effectively counter it… that’s pretty game breaking.

rymere83

Would DC be worth selling right now? lol asking for a friend

TechMaybeHic

rymere83 wrote: »

Would DC be worth selling right now? lol asking for a friend

Market was flooded with it cheap not long ago so I doubt it. Events almost over and pretty much everyone will have a sticker book full

Vulkunne

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

rymere83 wrote: »

Would DC be worth selling right now? lol asking for a friend

Market was flooded with it cheap not long ago so I doubt it. Events almost over and pretty much everyone will have a sticker book full

Oh yeah that's right. I'll just vendor mine then lol. Thanks for the reminder.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

rymere83 wrote: »

Would DC be worth selling right now? lol asking for a friend

You will get 5-10k for some of the weapons, and purple jewelry will sell, maybe less now with so many event boxes. I am not a hardcore PVPer, never made this set, and my stickerbook is full.

Vulkunne wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

After equipping a gold set of dark convergence and watching my boneyard suck players in I no longer want this set balanced. I’ve joined the ranks of the abusers.

The icing on the cake is how glacial colossus sucks players in too, and the colossus stun still works even though players were just stunned by the dark convergence proc.

😂

lol

The ugly truth of the matter is Dark Convergence is just a well-known offender due to its notable visual effects and the fact it pulls people. There are other sets out there that are far more abusive than Dark Convergence.

And they are? Seriously, how about some examples? This set clearly violates the established rules of CC. How can anybody be okay with this and keep a straight face?

I remember the torug pact meta when ST dots could trigger multiple enchant procs. Everybody in PVP ran it for like a week. This fix was fast and drastic. They fundamentally changed how enchants proc'ed (only continuously apply with ground DOTS to keep PVE tanks happy).

Tons of middle ground approaches here. If it where me, I would ensure the the pull is blockable (I honestly have no idea if it is or if this is just a lag issue) and that it wont pull a CC immuned appointment (certainly seems it can currently, which is inconsistent with every other pull in the game). Seems straight forward.

I would also probably remove the stun, at least in the short term. In a high lag environment, CC break is so unreliable. It would still require a roll dodge to get out of it. I am always hesitant to balance around lag, but frankly, ZOS should know that the current performance in Cyro only compounds the problems with this set, a set that seems to play by its own rules.

Hey there just saw your reply.

So I read what you said and same for others on here. I get it and this Dark Convergence business used to seriously frustrate and anger me as well.

However aside from being pulled from siege on walls, I can't really remember any time in recent history where I died to Dark Convergence. Now before I woke up, this thing was kicking my teeth in, but no more.

Now, all of my builds for Cyrodiil are either in part or in whole made of reliable Heavy Armor sets with Sword & Board. Anytime I get pulled the first thing I do is block and relax. Seriously. DON'T PANIC. Just block and relax, find out where it pulled you to. If you can just start walking away, if your health is low try dodge rolling away BEFORE it detonates, otherwise you'll have to hold block and keep walking. Generally healers nearby can keep you alive while you block.

For me Dark Convergence is really a non issue and hardly a threat. Other sets are much more dangerous and exploitive but the lag in Cyrodiil is so bad we gotta use what will work for us in spite of lag.

[snip]

For the most part, I find this set mostly to be a massive annoyance, as the ground in any large scale fight is littered with DC AOEs. It's a bad itch that constantly needs scratched.

The only time it really gets me killed is when I get pulled in by a ball group. Ball groups equal extra lag and extra stuff on top of it. Easy to say dont fight ball groups, or dont get close, but sometimes, you kinda have to. This set strengthens ball groups by a stupid amount, and when the lag rolls in with them, as it always does, the game just isnt fun to play. If I still ran in ball groups, I would probably be running this nonsense as well...

[edited for inappropriate content]

pleximus

Getting pulled in the middle of a roll-dodge and being killed before I even reach the ball in the center is just effed up. There's no fighting involved, it's just DC spam everywhere. How fun it is being bombed every second.

REMOVE THIS SET ALREADY!!!!!!!!!

Tipsy

I second the request to remove this set from the game:
This set throws strategic positioning out of the window ,which is a shame.
While the idea of punishing zergs that stack too much isn't bad in itself,one that pulls all players in one spot is. For a game master who wants all players in whichever desired spot to kill them a god mode set like this might be understandable maybe .But not for player vs player. No common opponent player should have that power to decide the location of their enemy for easy killing.
I've had it several times now that a group just rage quits after 3 runs when 1 necro with vicous death & dark convergeance keeps wiping the group of like 7,unleashing all aoe & ulti after the pull in one spot.

Should also mention that i have a tanky set on for a healer & even if i make this sacrifice for survivability,
it doesnt matter...against dark convergeance+vicious death necro bomber that pulls all in 1 spot.It's just broken af really that it would kill all regardless of whether they are tanky or not.
& would you expect everyone to go full tank to try to counter this? Immovable pots do not counter it either. I'm not sure a full tank can survive it even.
A shame really.Because cyro has potential ,with more unique keep styles in each alliance zone & real tactical combat where there also is a place for none tanky players too perhaps,with some kind of perk system that has bonuses & penalties related to certain build setups. Like going really tanky makes you little slower ,... perks to balance things out.
A damage multiplier for siege weapons against stacking zergs would be a good thing,increasing damage the more player wander in the target area...
But this set that pulls the whole team in one spot just ruins it&throws tactical combat out of the window.

Lumenn

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

Arunei

Lumenn wrote: »

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

There's a big difference between nerfing and balancing, though. And if something can't be balanced then it should be removed until a time comes when it can be, in terms of sets at least (though disabling them might be easier than outright removal).

Lumenn

Arunei wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

There's a big difference between nerfing and balancing, though. And if something can't be balanced then it should be removed until a time comes when it can be, in terms of sets at least (though disabling them might be easier than outright removal).

I agree(hence why I stated sometimes it's real issues) but your balance probably won't be the same as mine. And both of ours probably won't meet player 3, 4, and so on. Every thread over the years has people for and against certain changes/proposals/and calls for nerfs. So again, back to king of the hill. I'll join ya at roe when we're in loincloths light attacking the gate cause that's all we got left 👍

EdmondDontes

Ranged bombing from stealth should not be possible. I'm still struggling to understand why ZOS thinks ranged bombing from stealth should be a thing in their game.

Dark Convergence is by far, no contest the most toxic set in the game yet ZOS refuses to do anything about it.

Arunei

Lumenn wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

There's a big difference between nerfing and balancing, though. And if something can't be balanced then it should be removed until a time comes when it can be, in terms of sets at least (though disabling them might be easier than outright removal).

I agree(hence why I stated sometimes it's real issues) but your balance probably won't be the same as mine. And both of ours probably won't meet player 3, 4, and so on. Every thread over the years has people for and against certain changes/proposals/and calls for nerfs. So again, back to king of the hill. I'll join ya at roe when we're in loincloths light attacking the gate cause that's all we got left 👍

Asking for a singular problematic set to not be so easily abused isn't *quite* the same as removing ALL sets. While there are people asking for it to be removed, I think everyone could it only needs two things to not be so OP. First, it needs to stop pulling people off walls and siege and through doors. That can't be intentional. Second, if it's going to ignore CC immunity, it needs to at least apply a unique "Dark Convergence CC immunity" so people can't be repeatedly pulled by it over and over and over.

If ZOS can't fix the first problem the set should be disabled until they can figure it out. It's too easy to abuse it to yank people from walls, especially when trying to use oils on the inner front door.

Tipsy

purely from consideration of strategic positioning ,it sure is an unfair exploit .
If there would be a set that would allow you to pull a scroll from a keep with force magic/telekinesis would be the same.
Just another example of a set that would allow you to "correct" the position of something that is inconveniently out of your reach.
You know,it would be like wanting the content of a huge gold deposit out of reach behind a thick safe ,but allowing you to summon the bars of gold in your bedroom,All from stealth too,so nobody would know you did it.
Right where you would want them to be.
In this case summon all the sacks of AP in the spot of choice ,so loads of AP is where you want it to be.
While postioning in combat hasn't seen much progress over the years in MMOs, I think it should play a huge role in these kind of keep fights & huge battles. Ssets like dark convergeance are detrimental to a deeper lvl of strategy & throw postioning out of the window.So in its current form,it doesn't make the experience better. Maybe with vicious death necro & this set this set is particularly broken. maybe a limit on pulls would fix it ,or only a chance to pull players in ,instead of pulling all in for sure.BUt in its current form i'd rather see it gone.

ElvenOverlord

drsalvation wrote: »

We've been asking for class ultimates and new skill trees, but we keep getting dismissed because "it would break balance" and whatnot, and yet we keep getting new OP skills that are cast for us for free by gear sets that keep getting introduced in the game. Dark Convergence should've been a racial ultimate that costs over 250 ult. The base morph would be in its current state, and the other morphs would be the way DC was before nerfed (either 2 pulls, or extended range).
This way, only a few select characters would be able to use it, AND it would only be a single-cast expensive ult that doesn't combine with other stuff like colossus or caltrops.
Yes, other players could team up to gank you that way, but they can still do that now anyway so would it matter?

Dude who cares about class ultimates, new skill trees or anything combat related? We getting a freakin card game! So awesome, can't wait. I'm so hyped, really what the game needs. /s

Nomadic_Atmoran

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

If it makes you feel better, we Americans (and I usually have double digit ping when not in Cyro Primetime) are pressing skills 4 times as well. Some skills do work better than others. I found myself fantasizing about a resto heavy attack build, because it seems to be about the most reliable thing. Haha. AOEs, both ground and spam, do seem to work better than anything that requires a target.

You know, its funny. We keep using the term Lag, and I am starting to think that is not the correct term. To me, Lag implies a delay. This is not lag. If I press a skill once, lag would imply that it should eventually go off, just with a delay. It doesnt...

A lot of it is range of attack or other position requirements and you are just not where you are yourself so; that would explain targeted abilities; but sometimes even aimless AOE won't go off either just not as often

No. For probably the better part of the last year in IC every other district load in I cant use Dragon Leap. It just will not go off no matter what. I have to either die and revive at the spawn point or move into a new district to get it to fire off. And even in PvE I am experiencing a great deal of similar issues with abilities not firing off against mobs that are less that a foot or so from me.

EdmondDontes

Maybe if Dark Convergence pulled people to the "caster" it would be less universally hated.

I still think the free pull that doesn't have to be aimed is a god mode mechanic that should not exist. But I would so much prefer to end up face to face with the [snip] wearing the set so I can return the favor.

In reality though, this set should not exist. There is a reason this mechanic has never existed in a game before until now. It's not fair, it's toxic, it's grossly OP and it breaks the flow of the game.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Tipsy

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Maybe if Dark Convergence pulled people to the "caster" it would be less universally hated.

If it only pulls max 3 players maybe,but even then.I would hardly even call the mechanic of this set a pull.it's more like a pin all enemy players in a desired spot to unleash all the ultis
& things like the necro colossus are really op combined with the stun.

I think either lose the stun of the skill, make immovable pots ignore the pull in or just delete the set. It would be like if firy grip was able to pull all players not just 1.No player should have control over positioning of a whole opposing team like that. I still think that's the biggest reason to alter/remove the set -strategic postioning out of the window in large scale pvp warefare- you have no choice but to go 2 tank sets to have a small
chance of surviving it ,so this set is so OP it destroys build diversity too,as nothing counters it,like immovable pots . Only solution is to go complete tanky & even then you can die if enough ultis are layered on top of each other during the mass pull.
Maybe if the caster has a chance to have all the damage done by the players that were pulled in reflected back to him/her,10 seconds before the pull,like a backlash.
Nah ,just remove it already

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Lumenn wrote: »

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

There is a massive difference between asking for a nerf to every little thing that killed you, and calling out a set when it is grossly out of line. This set should simply not exist in its current state. The pull ignores CC immunity, and it can pull you off keeps. [snip]

[edited for minor baiting]

Lumenn

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I honestly wish we'd stop asking for nerfs. That( and my arthritis) is the main reason I left pvp full time. Yes, I know "balance" but who remembers when we used to JOKE about the king of the hill mentality would have us with no class skills, naked, and only light attacks because heavy attacks would be nerfed....well class skills are being homogenized, we still have sets, and heavy attack builds...har har. It's not always pvp I know.and sometimes it's real issues. It's not even always the player base, sometimes zos does things with no explanation (dev notes) but we DO have a tendency to ask zos to nerf a lot of play as you want all on our own. I don't see an issue with these sets. In war you will throw grenades, bombs, poisonous gas, maybe even use grappling hooks to pull people off walls. In ESO we have Magicka to aid our weapons. I'd rather open the floodgates and be creative/combinations than keep limiting ourselves to a few sets.

There is a massive difference between asking for a nerf to every little thing that killed you, and calling out a set when it is grossly out of line. This set should simply not exist in its current state. The pull ignores CC immunity, and it can pull you off keeps. [snip]

[snip] One person's balance isn't the same as another's though, and there have been arguments for all sides(hence your balance isn't the same as mine, or the person next to us) to me, pulling off walls isn't such a bad thing. It might go a bit far so I'll call it a grey area depending on what mood you catch me in. Pulling THROUGH a wall is too far.

My point is it's ALWAYS something for SOMEONE. Wings are too strong, swift is too fast, x class heals too much, armor type is too tanky, x skill is too loaded. If I were a developer I'd probably create these sets just to watch us all burn.

[edited for minor baiting & to remove quote]

Lazarus_Rising

Maybe DK leap needs to go to with laggy cyro... its the same really

Tipsy

No dragon leap is not the same. It does not pull a whole group in 1 spot. It knocks all who happen to be in 8m of the attack back.
The difference is that it only touches players who happen to be standing inside the range when it hits (the player position is out of control of opponent using dragon leap)& players can dodge or walk out/escape it before impact.(so positioning still relevant & intact for dragon leap) While dark convergeance is like an exploit that pulls all players where you need them if their former position was less favorable.CC immunity or no.

In large scale pvp warfare ,tactical positioning should be very important. As that gives the depth to this game mode.
The use of environmental objects like pillars that could be collapsed on top of player ,bridges that can collapse etc all add to tactical depth.
So the destructible bridges were a nice improvement to Cyrodiil & I sure hope more game systems to improve tactical positioning will be added.
Players run around in towers near resources,use the building to their advantage etc. That's all good.They could add collapsable pillars etc for pvpers to play with & other environmetal situation for pvp players to take into consideration.
But this set is literally a delete button for tactical positioning as it currently is implemented.Not everyone wants to be a tank either.
& players that are no tanks are unable to counter it + colossus & elemental rage & what not they drop on that spot.

maybe if it has smaller radius ,CC immunity will ignore it & the set has a cap on the players it can affect.Current form of the set should only be a game master's skill if anything.

Also see Vicious death used with dark convergeaince often
"(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(5 items) Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 3322 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 5 meter radius. This effect scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage."
So that means that all who are in the pull on 1 spot explode for that 3322 flame damage individually too?(since all pulled in one spot,the 5m radius suffices to gguarantee everyone explodes, on top of the stun & on top of the colossus,wall of eleemets,elemental rage ,etc etc .Even with 2 tanky sets on I coudln't survive it in larger group pull.

Bat

I just crafted 5 pieces of this set to see what all the fuzz is about. I won't use it again because it's literally braindead. Saw cowardly DC wearers standing on towers in IC just leeching hard working people's Tel Var from them by putting Scalding Runes on the ground below them when people passed by, the people in the streets having absolutely no possible way to defend themselves because the attackers are safe on a much too elevated platform. This set is pure malice, it invites to absolutely toxic behaviour from players, and it should be deleted.