Dark Convergence Online

Massive_Stain

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

1) Block.

2) Dodgeroll out of the AOE.

Rinse. Repeat. I die only 25% of the time due to a smart dcon user. 75% of the time I can avoid dying.

Careful, don't you know this is a dark convergence hate thread? Blocking, is objectively too difficult. When you see the aoe, it's way more easy to charge at the first red outline you see. Roll dodge? How about let's just nerf the set because that's too hard.

daim

pleximus wrote: »

This has completely destroyed pvp! Playing on PC NA-server and AD has so many people just spamming it that it covers the entire courtyard and out! DELETE THIS SET FROM THE GAME OR CHANGE THE NAME TO "DARK CONVERGENCE ONLINE"!

I've seldom been this angry while playing this game. This set is just disgusting and ruins everything fun about the game! REMOVE IT! REMOVE IT, REMOVE IT, REMOVE IT!! It was a mistake to introduce it in the first place! REMOVE IT!!

Is this still a thing?

Its a fun set in pve. Even after range nerf. I hope they wont nerf it further.

daim

IronWooshu wrote: »

HertoginJanneke wrote: »

No. I don't play PVP, and I can see by how it works in PVE that it can by extremely annoying for PVP, but for PVE it's a fun set.

It's not a PVE set tho, you earn it in PVP therefore PVE doesn't really have a say.

So youre saying you cant use pve sets in pvp ?

dem0n1k

Ez fix for players that want to use Dark Conversion in PVE... make the pull blockable.
PVP players can then block being pulled around by multiple DCs.
PVE players can enjoy it's pull on mobs that don't block.

BronzeCaiman

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

For all people defending this set: could you please detail a reliable counterplay or defence to it?
Simply dodge-rolling out doesn't really work. I would like to learn from those who have enough experience to survive and counter it, as I am still a novice in cyrodiil.

Anyone saying roll dodge is the counter play is either using this wildly OP set in their zerg, or they havent actually played PVP in the last 6 months. I play a roll sorc in all well-fitted with 20k stam on mag toon. I can roll halfway across the map.

That sounds about as balanced as Dark Convergence, I'll assume you use Bolt Escape too so you can end up in High Isle before any of us.

Arunei

Massive_Stain wrote: »

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

1) Block.

2) Dodgeroll out of the AOE.

Rinse. Repeat. I die only 25% of the time due to a smart dcon user. 75% of the time I can avoid dying.

Careful, don't you know this is a dark convergence hate thread? Blocking, is objectively too difficult. When you see the aoe, it's way more easy to charge at the first red outline you see. Roll dodge? How about let's just nerf the set because that's too hard.

Except the fact you guys seem to be ignoring or overlooking is it's not just DC itself, it's the fact that it's paired with numerous other things that actually kill you. Block? So you're going to just use up all your Stam blocking not only several DCs around you, but also the various other skills that are being used at the same time. Dodge roll? Have you forgotten Dodge Fatigue is a thing, and that you can be repeatedly pulled by DC over and over? Even on a Stam character I've run out of Stam numerous times dodging just to avoid the several DCs going off around me, Mag characters are straight up screwed after a handful of dodges.

So no, your solutions aren't solutions, the set needs more adjusting. It's kind of silly, to put it nicely, that a single set can repeatedly pull you and effectively lock you out of evading the skills, ults or siege hitting you. All it takes is a few people staggering their AoEs to ensure the pulls keeping happening.

Jpk0012

Faulgor wrote: »

I've never seen anyone use it in PvE. What's the application?

Its fun! AKA they are being carried.

dvonpm

Dark convergence will not kill a well comped group unless there is a ton of well-timed burst damage and negate to go with it. Which a decent group can do without the pull.

But for real it's like every minute or more in some of the larger fights. It just feels constant and it's exhausting even when it's not deadly.

Between that, and the lag, and a few certain skills that shall remain unnamed (but we all know what they are) that desync with pretty much every hit and it's more like "Elder Stalls Online".

That radius needs to shrink or get capped or something because it really is just getting old.

RevJJ

It’s also still pulling people off keep walls and porches.

Set needs to be deleted. Most toxic thing to happen to pvp in the two years that I’ve been playing.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Arunei wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

As far as I can tell, this set either doesn't respect the normal rules of CC, or the rules of CC as I understand them are broken beyond repair. In either event, the set shouldnt exist in its current state. I have CC breaked and been pulled two seconds later. I have been pulled, barely escaped and immediately pulled again. I have used an Immovable put and then been pulled. I have been pulled through block. I have been pulled through doors. I have been pulled off keeps. I have been pulled mid dodge roll.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Have people tested this in a controlled setting, AKA not cyrodiil? Does that stun simply not grant or respect any type of CC immunity? Because that seems to be the case. It seems you can be pulled when you should be CC immuned and you can be stunned again afterwards as if the pull did not grant immunity. I know CC immunity has always been a very questionable mechanic and often simply doesn't work properly, but it seems way worse with DC.

DC doesn't apply any kind of CC, which is why it can pull you even if you currently have CC immunity and why you can be repeatedly pulled by it over and over within one or two seconds.

Went into Cyro yesterday to join a zerg and work on getting AP and my tickets, and yep, DC everywhere, Colossus everywhere, dodge roll half a dozen times only to immediately get pulled back in after several of them. ZOS really needs to at the very least make DC apply a unique CC that prevents people from being pulled more than once every X seconds.

To be clear, are you saying the Pull from DC doesnt respect any type of CC immunity or the Stun and subsequent break free doesn't apply any type of CC immunity? Perhaps its an academic debate as both happen at the same time, but it certainly seems out of line.

As far as I know, every other type of pull (chains, leash, gate, etc), should not pull a CC immune opponent. The pull from DC seems to be an outlier, as it can absolutely pull you when you should be CC immune.

If the above is true, even if intentional by the devs, once you are pulled, you are then Stunned by the set, which requires a break free. Every stun in the game requires this, and I am not aware of any other stun where you break free and are NOT CC immune. Assuming you counterplay as intended, I get pulled, I break free from the stun, and I roll dodge out of the away, that break free from the stun should grant CC immunity. But of course, if the pull doesnt respect CC immunity, it just means you can be immediately pulled again.

So perhaps its more about the pull not respecting CC immunity then whether the stun grants it or not. I would be interesting to test if after the break free, if another type of CC would work on you, but in the case of multiple DCs, it really doesnt matter. If the pull doesnt respect CC immunity, its fundamentally broken.

Yesterday I was in a keep, the floor was covered in multiple DCs. I ping ponged 3 times. Pull, break free, roll dodge out, pull, break free, roll dodge out, pull, break free, roll dodge out. Somehow I managed to escape out the front door, but at that point I was totally tapped for stamina.

How can anybody say this is working appropriately within the known rules of CC that have been around since launch and this set simply doesnt respect them?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

1) Block.

2) Dodgeroll out of the AOE.

Rinse. Repeat. I die only 25% of the time due to a smart dcon user. 75% of the time I can avoid dying.

So this is simply not true. I have been pulled through block. Now maybe that was lag related, but even if block does work, you are talking about blocking while in a 60% snare with a bomb about to go off (with god knows what else on top of it). Simply trying to block this unless you are built as a tank is not effective counter play.

Roll dodge by itself is often not an effective counterplay. Yes often if it gets dropped right on top of you, you can roll doge and avoid the pull, but if the pull gets you, you have to break free, then roll dodge.

Also, if a set is killing you 25% of the time its used on you, that is pretty darn OP. I certainly escape from this way more than I die from it, but most of the time, its one or two people using it, not a zergball. If a zergball uses it, those numbers change in a hurry. That is my issues with this set. Never mind that it is literally everywhere, its that it wildly increases the power of an organized ball group.

BlackArgonian wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

LukosCreyden wrote: »

For all people defending this set: could you please detail a reliable counterplay or defence to it?
Simply dodge-rolling out doesn't really work. I would like to learn from those who have enough experience to survive and counter it, as I am still a novice in cyrodiil.

Anyone saying roll dodge is the counter play is either using this wildly OP set in their zerg, or they havent actually played PVP in the last 6 months. I play a roll sorc in all well-fitted with 20k stam on mag toon. I can roll halfway across the map.

That sounds about as balanced as Dark Convergence, I'll assume you use Bolt Escape too so you can end up in High Isle before any of us.

Me stacking into well fitted doesnt kill anyone. It also comes with obvious trade offs, for example, low crit resist for not using impen, or lower overall damage for not using something like infused. Even with all that, I still can't roll like 90% of the stamboys out there, point is, roll dodge is not effective counter play.

But figures, someone would come along and try to turn this into a nerf sorc thread. How original.

Arunei wrote: »

Hmmmmm, I could have sworn the tooltip used to say that the pull didn't apply CC, and I don't remember ever reading that they'd changed that. I know it used to pull twice but they dropped one of them to make it ""easier"" to avoid. Either way, it doesn't seem like it's applying any CC if it's supposed to, even without lag being a factor.

I think the bigger issue is not that the pull doesnt grant CC immunity (the subsequent stun and break free should do that regardless of the pull), its that it doesnt seem to respect CC immunity. So if you Counterplay as intended (Break free and roll dodge to escape), you can simply be pulled again.

Vulkunne

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Every Mayhem in the past, I've pretty much spent every waking, non-working hour in Cyrodiil. Not this year.

Since they introduced DC, I've barely been in Cyrodiil, and not at all since about three weeks after its release. I went from a PVP regular to someone who wants nothing to do with it. I don't want to play a game with designers who would be capable of pushing a set like that live. I don't want to PVP with or against anyone who would use it. It stripmined all the joy out of Cyrodiil for me. The whole thought of going in there leaves a bad taste in my mouth now.

Well, I guess I'll go in and give it a try for the first time in months. We'll see what happens, I guess. But sounds like DC is just as broken--just as much something anyone I could respect wouldn't touch--as ever.

This is exactly how I felt for a while however I have learned to adapt to Dark Conv and now for me its a non issue.

In fact, I don't mean to brag but I can't think of the last time I died recently due to Dark Conv, which is a sharp contrast from dying consistently before making a couple changes.

Vulkunne

pecheckler wrote: »

After equipping a gold set of dark convergence and watching my boneyard suck players in I no longer want this set balanced. I’ve joined the ranks of the abusers.

The icing on the cake is how glacial colossus sucks players in too, and the colossus stun still works even though players were just stunned by the dark convergence proc.

😂

lol

The ugly truth of the matter is Dark Convergence is just a well-known offender due to its notable visual effects and the fact it pulls people. There are other sets out there that are far more abusive than Dark Convergence.

S0Z0H

There are pvp servers that deactivate proc sets I think

TechMaybeHic

S0Z0H wrote: »

There are pvp servers that deactivate proc sets I think

The problem is it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater by removing a lot more sets that are not entirely clear, and no CP

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Vulkunne wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

After equipping a gold set of dark convergence and watching my boneyard suck players in I no longer want this set balanced. I’ve joined the ranks of the abusers.

The icing on the cake is how glacial colossus sucks players in too, and the colossus stun still works even though players were just stunned by the dark convergence proc.

😂

lol

The ugly truth of the matter is Dark Convergence is just a well-known offender due to its notable visual effects and the fact it pulls people. There are other sets out there that are far more abusive than Dark Convergence.

And they are? Seriously, how about some examples? This set clearly violates the established rules of CC. How can anybody be okay with this and keep a straight face?

I remember the torug pact meta when ST dots could trigger multiple enchant procs. Everybody in PVP ran it for like a week. This fix was fast and drastic. They fundamentally changed how enchants proc'ed (only continuously apply with ground DOTS to keep PVE tanks happy).

Tons of middle ground approaches here. If it where me, I would ensure the the pull is blockable (I honestly have no idea if it is or if this is just a lag issue) and that it wont pull a CC immuned appointment (certainly seems it can currently, which is inconsistent with every other pull in the game). Seems straight forward.

I would also probably remove the stun, at least in the short term. In a high lag environment, CC break is so unreliable. It would still require a roll dodge to get out of it. I am always hesitant to balance around lag, but frankly, ZOS should know that the current performance in Cyro only compounds the problems with this set, a set that seems to play by its own rules.

Kory

Dark Convergence just does too much in and of itself, and stacking with other abilities for an easy combo, and procs off of your ground AOE ability as well.

Then there's technical problems like enemy DC aoe effect not showing up sometimes, works through block and roll dodge a little too often, and pulling from outside it's range. It could be the game's performance issues, but this set really brings out those problems.

FlopsyPrince

pleximus wrote: »

This has completely destroyed pvp! Playing on PC NA-server and AD has so many people just spamming it that it covers the entire courtyard and out! DELETE THIS SET FROM THE GAME OR CHANGE THE NAME TO "DARK CONVERGENCE ONLINE"!

I've seldom been this angry while playing this game. This set is just disgusting and ruins everything fun about the game! REMOVE IT! REMOVE IT, REMOVE IT, REMOVE IT!! It was a mistake to introduce it in the first place! REMOVE IT!!

Why can I rarely find an AD dominant map for the dailies if this is such a problem?

BlossomDead

Don't worry people, it's getting a buff next patch.

etchedpixels

Having been playing a mix of the campaigns on EU it's very noticeable that in under 50's where the lag is generally a lot lower and skills actually bother fire most of the time the DC counters actually usually work although there are combos that seem to be pretty much uncounterable when you get multiple ultimates dropped on you.

If the game actually worked properly DC might be sort of acceptable but it's still hugely overpowered even in PvE. Presumably it works awesomely on whatever tiny test PvP setup they have in their offices with everyone local 8)

Crash427

-"Hey ZOS, cyrodiil performance is in bad shape. Pulls are especially laggy."
-"Pulls you say? Here have a proc set with an AOE pull that ignores all the CC rules."

Kinda making it hard to have any faith that y'all understand whats going on with your own game, or will be able to fix it. Seriously I would love to hear from anyone at ZOS as to how this set got released.

While they're at it they should release a set that keeps you in combat and one that prevents all gap closers from working. Maybe a set that doesn't let you sprint and makes you break free all the time.

worrallj

Just join a ball group that has absurd mitigation and healing... Bombs don't even move their health bars it's like they're all in mist form or something.

BXR_Lonestar

In theory, Dark Convergence is alright. The problem is it was designed to be more effective against zergs, but when zerglings are all USING the set too, there's just Dark Convergence everywhere and there really isn't anywhere to escape. If they want true zerg-busting sets, they should look at making sets increasing the damage done with seige exponentially. That gives players the ability to bust zerg with some major downside (rooted on siege, no other useful combat bonuses) that can really only be negated with strategic use. IMO, that was the direction Zos should ALWAYS have gone in to break up zergs and ball groups.

worrallj

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

If the simply removed the stun from DC until they do whatever is they are doing with servers and the giant bowl of spaghetti code, my guess is that it would solve 90% of the forum rage.

kargen27

This set puts defensive siege at a huge disadvantage. Oils become next to useless with Dark Convergence yanking players off the line. You can't place the other siege weapons in a position to defend against attackers near the wall or you risk getting yanked off the wall. One battle last night I watched several players get yanked off the wall. Dark Convergence in that fight was more prominent than I've seen in a while. Players not on siege would go forward put down one maybe two AoE skills then roll dodge backwards to be clear of the Dark Convergence either there or on the way.
I think the uptick in Dark Conversion now is because we are several days into this event and players that don't PvP as much finally have the set and are taking full advantage. Before the event the set was annoying on walls but not like now. Now it is almost constant. Out in the open I think the set is okay. Maybe some tweaking needs done but most the problem with the set is the yanking off keep walls.

Going on a tangent I did a battleground last night for the endeavor. I've been avoiding battlegrounds because I am tired of getting nothing but death match. We got deathmatch and it was in the quarry. The match started all players ran towards the middle and the only way to not get into the AoE of dark convergence was either jump in the lava or try and get back down the path a good distance. At least eight players had the set. The entire fight was survive the convergence then try and pick off some other player that barely survived. It was a horrible fight. Gap closers would get you killed and the best strategy was avoid the enemy while lobbing AoEs in the direction of all the convergences happening. At least there was/is some kind of strategy when that happens. It means a boring fight but there is a fight. Going back to what I first mentioned though when the skill is used to pull people from the wall there is no viable counter. I guess the counter is stack siege inside the courtyard, wait until the door comes down and lay all the siege in the opening. No way to effectively defend from the top with all the nonsense happening.
I would like to see the ability to yank people off walls dealt with. That one change would make the skill become more what it was meant to be. I also hope after the event the constant barrage of nothing but convergence will become less prevalent.

Mrtoobyy

Like I've said many times in many threads, the problem is not that you die all the time to Dark convergence. It just ruins the feel of the game. My personal opinion is that CC immunity should be increased in PVP and remove some of the non skill easy CC sets. I really believe it would make combat more fluid and more fun.

Jaimeh

It still pulls you off walls and platforms, even at the weirdest angles... please limit the range, it's so tiring to have to block and roll dodge multiple casts back to back from ball groups, it seems like it's the only thing people are running.

dem0n1k

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

dem0n1k wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Imho the problem isn't actually dark convergence. Because of the time delay, it *is* possible to break free and dodge roll out or block before the boom.

The problem is that in cyrodiil the latency is such trash that you can't break free fast enough. when the latency is bad getting stunned is a death sentence if there is any significant damage coming in over the next couple seconds, and dark convergence does all that to a lot of people very easily.

Agree with this. By itself, even multiple Dark Conversions can be avoided without death.. but when you include the crippling lag of prime time Cyrodiil with 3 factions pop-locked.. there is no escape from it & whatever other AOE gets dropped on top.

Something I noticed while playing a fair bit during this Whitestrake's Mayhem & when it's prime time & I am mostly fighting vs Americans (I am Australian)... the lag is savage. I can see my enemy getting off skills & light attacks smoothly while I have to press every button 4 times & maybe a skill goes off. There is major position de-sync & most of my single target abilities fail to land on target & so they just don't go off. I feel like this is why mega ball groups use so much AOE... cause any single target stuff mostly misses due to the positional des-sync.

You can see it in the NPC guards during prime time... they run back & forth like they just don't know where the enemy players are... when enemy players are right next to them.

When prime time dies off & I find I am fighting players with similar latency to my own (250-400ms) the gameplay become relatively smooth. Skills still misfire, but the positional de-sync seems improved.

If it makes you feel better, we Americans (and I usually have double digit ping when not in Cyro Primetime) are pressing skills 4 times as well. Some skills do work better than others. I found myself fantasizing about a resto heavy attack build, because it seems to be about the most reliable thing. Haha. AOEs, both ground and spam, do seem to work better than anything that requires a target.

You know, its funny. We keep using the term Lag, and I am starting to think that is not the correct term. To me, Lag implies a delay. This is not lag. If I press a skill once, lag would imply that it should eventually go off, just with a delay. It doesnt...