PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

jle30303

Title changes *affect* nobody because titles are a purely cosmetic, vanity affair.

Account-wide achievements only *affect* people in cases where the achievement is tied towards actual progress (actually makes a one-time quest be regarded as "complete" on another character, preventing the character from doing the quest properly and getting its reward) or towards the appearance of progress (making an area, zone or point of interest appear to be "complete" on a new character who has not in fact done the "completion" thing for that zone).

However, this "affecting" people is very important because it is a lot of people. As I pointed out, this game is an Elder Scrolls game, and a great deal of its market is going to be people who appreciated the whole Elder Scrolls ethos, and that included the replayability of doing the in-game quests on separate characters. Having a situation where alts have, or appear to have, "completed" things that the specific alt has never in fact done, ruins the game's replayability.

Whereas a title doesn't actually AFFECT your progression, either on the character or on the account as a whole, it merely shows it. Making titles, and vanity achievements, account-wide is fine because it merely changes the nature of the brag, from "this character has done X", to "one of my characters has done X", or possibly even "all of my characters collectively together have done X between them".

The trouble comes when the achievement or title affects the actual gameplay, i.e. in-game things that happen as a result of a certain thing having been done on that particular character, which shouldn't happen if it's been done on another character but not this one.

Wolfkeks

silvereyes wrote: »

Another request for our EU friends across the pond: could you please try an Undaunted pledge or delve daily (Bolgrul) and see if the Undaunted reputation awarded has been changed? According to week 1 patch notes, it was supposed to be increased, but our testing so far has shown no extra reputation. It was still only rewarding 10 reputation when we tested with NA characters on PTS.

Tested for you. The Story Quest seems to give you 10 Rep while the normal pledge also gives you 10 Rep. I can test if the vet pledge gives more than on live later but I don't think that is the case. Prob bugged.

Tandor

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

It unites most of us in its present form. You are making an assumption as to whether something constitutes a bug or is working as intended, and it is the failure of today's patch notes to even address that point that is likely to make us even more united. I totally get that the community is more or less evenly divided on the principle of account-wide achievements, but the way they were implemented initially on the PTS with no adjustments, fixes, or even mentions, in the two subsequent patches has been roundly criticised by those who support the principle every bit as much as by those opposed to it.

Kesstryl

Wolfkeks wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Made a new char to test it.

Can confirm that he does act like you have already finished the dungeon even if you didn't set foot in it with a new char,

Also tested this with another achievement. If you have the Emp achievement you can get a special dialogue in White Gold Tower. New char has not entered Cyro and therefore not done the starter quests or the Alliance War skill line. You still get the special dialogue.

Can you guys post this info in the bugs thread? I would hate to have characters get dialogue like this who didn't do those things. This completely breaks immersion for those characters. I think stuff like this needs to be posted as a bug.

Wolfkeks

Kesstryl wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Made a new char to test it.

Can confirm that he does act like you have already finished the dungeon even if you didn't set foot in it with a new char,

Also tested this with another achievement. If you have the Emp achievement you can get a special dialogue in White Gold Tower. New char has not entered Cyro and therefore not done the starter quests or the Alliance War skill line. You still get the special dialogue.

Can you guys post this info in the bugs thread? I would hate to have characters get dialogue like this who didn't do those things. This completely breaks immersion for those characters. I think stuff like this needs to be posted as a bug.

Yep, on it! Thanks for reminding me, almost forgot that we had a bug report section for this ^^

Bucky Balls

I logged into each of my characters. Then I created a new character on pts (eu).

This new character has the accumulated achievements of all others (the account). He is a master crafter, master angler has completed all base game zones, collected all skyshards, completed a number of dlc zones and significant portions of others and, apparently, is fairly substantial in pvp and battlegrounds.

All without setting foot outwith the spot where the game placed him after character creation.

There's nothing for this character to do - it's all completed. Replayability has been marginalised to how pretty (or ugly) he is during character creation. That's it. Done.

In almost 7 years of playing I have bought ever chapter pre-release, subbed and bought dlc too. I will not be buying the next chapter on pre-release.

If this goes live as is then I very much doubt I will continue to play, despite having many months of my current subscription to run - there's no point. This implementation kills the game.

I am not against account wide achievements nor titles.

I am against the destruction of all existing individual character history, journalling and future play that the current system provides but which this pts implementation of account wide achievements rips the heart and soul from.

Was is so terribly hard for you at zos to recognise that adding an extra tab with accumulated account achievements while retaining the current character specifics would have been universally welcomed?

silvereyes

Wolfkeks wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Another request for our EU friends across the pond: could you please try an Undaunted pledge or delve daily (Bolgrul) and see if the Undaunted reputation awarded has been changed? According to week 1 patch notes, it was supposed to be increased, but our testing so far has shown no extra reputation. It was still only rewarding 10 reputation when we tested with NA characters on PTS.

Tested for you. The Story Quest seems to give you 10 Rep while the normal pledge also gives you 10 Rep. I can test if the vet pledge gives more than on live later but I don't think that is the case. Prob bugged.

Thanks for testing! That's consistent with what we saw before. The story quest reputation is expected, but the dailies were suppose to have reputation increased, so it seems to still be bugged.

MasterSpatula

This whole thing is so depressing.

And it's such a perfect illustration of why ZOS's terrible communication is so frustrating for players. Why did they not ask for feedback on AWA before starting work on it? Because it didn't occur to them to do so, I guess. It speaks to something broken in the "corporate culture" of ZOS, something broken since Day 1. I mean, seriously, who wouldn't think hashing out the pros and cons and anticipating potential bugs before starting the work is a good idea, an important idea?

People who don't value their players enough to consider communicating with them important, that's who. For eight years, we've heard "we're going to communicate better." If it were among their values, they wouldn't talk about communicating. They'd communicate.

So here we are with an easily-predictable fiasco brewing, and me wondering why I continue playing this game. That's not something you want your customers feeling. Not ever.

silvereyes

Reposting this from the bug reports thread in case anyone missed it:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the reports here, everyone. Just wanted to let you know we have been keeping an eye on this thread and are still working on getting some of the things called out from this thread fixed in future PTS patches.

No word on which of the bugs will be fixed, but one can hope.

wolfie1.0.

Elsonso wrote: »

silvereyes wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

it seems like it's either going to go out in a way that upsets and diminishes the gameplay of some people or not going out at all.

To be honest, I would be floored if it doesn't go out at all in U33. I know people will disagree with me, but in my two decades of working on software projects, I've never seen such a major feature be removed in its entirety this late in the development cycle. There's barely enough time before release to fix the normal bugs that pop up with any new release, let alone start on a major shift in direction, like reverting large parts of code that could lead to other dependent code changes breaking.

The most likely thing I see happening is that a number of achievements that were account-wide in PTS weeks 1 and 2 suddenly become character-specific after the EU character copy this week, in order to fix NPCs, quest objectives and hopefully, zone completion. This is the safest option to fix what the largest number of players view as bugs that doesn't involve changing already-tested code.

I have seen it happen.

However, I agree that ZOS will push forward and make some lemonade out of this.

silvereyes wrote: »

It's a problem with ZOS trying to turn in their homework half-complete and wanting full marks for it.

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

The fact that no one has exact statistics is exactly why I do not trust those polls. I doubt that people passing through while quickly reading a very simplistic poll fully understand the ramifications of AWA and what will go missing. I'm not sure some of the people who are excited for AWA realize that they are not getting the ideal of what they think AWA will be, but instead a rushed system that has broken quests, one doesn't actually give them many of the things they hoped would be account wide.

I don't think we need polls and statistics in this situation. ZOS has that, and we just need to watch ZOS and see what they are doing. That will tell us a lot more than user-generated polls.

ZOS is quite the reliable source in this respect, and everything they are doing suggests that AwA is not only the majority, but the overwhelming majority, of players. If it is not, then ZOS is caught in a no-win situation and it does not matter what the players think about this.

That does not mean that implementation may be flawed or unacceptable to a larger swath of the population than they expected, but today's patch notes will give us more insight into that. They may have wiggle room.

Zos is not exactly a reliable source. I have talked with support about tickets and issues that I can't discuss and have talked with others who have had similar issues.

The point is that ZOS doesn't have all of the tools people think they have. There are things they can see and things they can't, and simply data that they cannot track actively.

Case in point: it took ZOS a long time to identify and admit that there was a lag issue in cyro, and then implemented a lot of tests to try to find the cause. That is not a sign of a company that "has all of the data".

So no ZOS is not reliable.

wolfie1.0.

Saieden wrote: »

majulook wrote: »

The more I think about this change the more I believe the change is possibly part of the Server and code upgrade. The database will no longer need to hold information on individual character progress in achievements and titles and thus be significantly smaller. Some performance boost on the back end is maybe what they are expecting, as this would trim millions of entries in the database. Similar to the reasoning they gave for archiving player data of those who have not logged on in a long time.

This being said, I just want it to be easy to track an individual characters progress in the game. As long as I can see which individual character has actually earned things, and the XP gains of each characters discovering or doing something for the first time is not removed. I do not care if there account wide Achievements / Titles. For me its not that this is happening, its the way its being implemented.

The amount data actually required, per character, for achievements is a trivial amount that is relatively static, compared to, say, the logging of trade transactions which has more unique variables and a higher frequency of occurence several orders of magnitude greater. Continous checks are not an issue because the data is always present client-side, and only validated against the server when a change is detected, and similarly could be compared to combat server checks which can have 100s per second in a single trial instance. There is absolutely no way this has any performance benefits, unless the code is just unimaginablely bad.

Pretty much if this were causing the issues then all zos would need to do is ban trading and addons and life in eso would be awesome.

wolfie1.0.

tmbrinks wrote: »

Well, it looks like no changes in the 7.3.2 patch notes. And with my plus sub running out tomorrow, guess I'll look into where else to spend the $140 I would have normally dropped for the yearly sub tomorrow. Maybe to BDO, which I've been playing lately. [snip]

So sad to see 8 years of gameplay disrespected and discarded like this

I have 7 subs. Letting them expire. Not purchasing crowns I don't think either. I don't know if I will still play. My subs are scattered across the year so it will take a while.

Like I said earlier. Unless zos recants it's going to save me several thousand dollars this year

[edited quoted post]

wolfie1.0.

ZOS_SarahF wrote: »

Greetings,

​After removing some unnecessary back and forth in addition to some off-topic comments from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

@ZOS_SarahF can we at least get some feedback on WHY you are nerfing my gameplay experience?

KMarble

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

Is it the dungeon itself or is it the quest in the dungeon that triggers the dialogue? Do you happen to know?

I'm not sure, sorry. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's triggered by doing it as a pledge. I could be wrong, though. Another NPC I can think of is standing near the blacksmith station in Markarth. IIRC the lines have something to do with Blessed Crucible.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Tandor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

It unites most of us in its present form. You are making an assumption as to whether something constitutes a bug or is working as intended, and it is the failure of today's patch notes to even address that point that is likely to make us even more united. I totally get that the community is more or less evenly divided on the principle of account-wide achievements, but the way they were implemented initially on the PTS with no adjustments, fixes, or even mentions, in the two subsequent patches has been roundly criticised by those who support the principle every bit as much as by those opposed to it.

Earlier today around when the patch note where posted, gina did post in the bug report thread stating that bugs outlied in that thread where going to be fixed in the remaining pts patch meaning that at some of the problem spoken about here are indeed bugs.

But i do agree i should have been in the known issue part of the patch note

Edit misremembered the post being in this thread

KMarble

Vrienda wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

May I ask a favor from the people who play on EU? It's a minor thing, but it only occurred to me when it was to late for me to test it.

Some NPCs will have special lines for your character after you complete certain dungeons. The first one to come to mind is the Undaunted ghost in the tavern in the Hollow City. Once you've ran Vaults of Madness he'll recognize the fact and say a few lines.

Would it be possible for one of you to check if NPCs like him will have special speeches for a character of yours that hasn't gone in a certain dungeon?

I can confirm that he does indeed say you did the vaults of madness even if you haven't on that character yet. The NPC's also talk to you like you bought them a drink already if you have the achievement for that...

Thank you. This is just sad.

Edited to add: thanks to all who took time out of your day to test this for me.

Jaraal

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

nd most are responding against this change. Defiantly not a "tiny bit of a fraction".

Vrienda wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Yup exactly now we wont need to wastet our time redoing all acheivement on top of questing

God forbid you have to actually play the game.

It will actually more fully allow me to play the game because I won't have to worry about having a bunch of half-done achievements all over the place that will never get done because I want to hop on an alt and experience the story again, you know, the actual game.

I didn’t say those words your edit describes, that was someone else. I know this forum style can be a nightmare to get quotes right, especially the way they autosave drafts.

Jaraal

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

It unites most of us in its present form. You are making an assumption as to whether something constitutes a bug or is working as intended, and it is the failure of today's patch notes to even address that point that is likely to make us even more united. I totally get that the community is more or less evenly divided on the principle of account-wide achievements, but the way they were implemented initially on the PTS with no adjustments, fixes, or even mentions, in the two subsequent patches has been roundly criticised by those who support the principle every bit as much as by those opposed to it.

Earlier today around when the patch note where posted, gina did post in the bug report thread stating that bugs outlied in that thread where going to be fixed in the remaining pts patch meaning that at some of the problem spoken about here are indeed bugs.

But i do agree i should have been in the known issue part of the patch note

Edit misremembered the post being in this thread

That would also mean that they plan on pushing this awful change out to live.

The writing is on the wall.

silvereyes

Jaraal wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

It unites most of us in its present form. You are making an assumption as to whether something constitutes a bug or is working as intended, and it is the failure of today's patch notes to even address that point that is likely to make us even more united. I totally get that the community is more or less evenly divided on the principle of account-wide achievements, but the way they were implemented initially on the PTS with no adjustments, fixes, or even mentions, in the two subsequent patches has been roundly criticised by those who support the principle every bit as much as by those opposed to it.

Earlier today around when the patch note where posted, gina did post in the bug report thread stating that bugs outlied in that thread where going to be fixed in the remaining pts patch meaning that at some of the problem spoken about here are indeed bugs.

But i do agree i should have been in the known issue part of the patch note

Edit misremembered the post being in this thread

That would also mean that they plan on pushing this awful change out to live.

The writing is on the wall.

Gina's exact wording again:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the reports here, everyone. Just wanted to let you know we have been keeping an eye on this thread and are still working on getting some of the things called out from this thread fixed in future PTS patches.

Emphasis mine.

At the time she wrote that, here were the bug reports remaining from that thread that had not been fixed yet:

• Earned by tooltips going to the wrong characters.
• Unrepeatable museum quests
• Precursor quest not requiring collecting all the parts
• Account-wide achievements in the category "Character"
• Delves auto-completing
• World bosses auto-completing
• World events (dolmens, gysers, etc.) auto-completing
• Undaunted reputation for dailies not increasing
• Delve boss cooldown timers resetting when the delve is discovered
• Melina Cassel not offering quest for the Markarth Friend In Deed achievement.
• Two NPCs overlapping on a throne in Elsweyr
• Vampire / Werewolf skill unlocks unpurchaseable in the Crown Store
• Some strangeness with map completion inside vs. outside of zone, although this may be an issue with addons
• NPC not appearing in Orsinium quest, A Question of Succession. This may be a rare bug on live, since I was able to just log off and back in to reset the NPC.

That's a pretty big list, and the vast majority of the bugs in the list are directly AwA related, so I agree that AwA is probably getting released in some form. How many of the bugs get fixed, and which ones are working as intended, if any, will determine to a large degree how awful this update is when it makes it to live.

I also thought Gina's vague wording was kind of odd, like she's under some embargo from giving a definitive answer on which bugs are being worked on. Blink twice if you are being held hostage, Gina!

I feel really bad for her and Kevin, having to read through so many repeat complaints without being able to put them to rest.

Wolf_Eye

silvereyes wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi All,

For those asking about the Q&A, we are currently working on it. We will let you know when it is ready. Again, as many of you have noted, this is a lengthy thread with a lot of feedback, so it will take time to parse through and answer questions accordingly. But as stated before, we are not only working on the Q&A, but this thread has been shared with the teams working on the Account-Wide Achievements and they are going through it as well.

Lastly, I do want to remind everyone of community guidelines. We understand this is a hot-button thread, so please keep them in mind as we don't want anyone to cross a line when we are all trying to make sure the community has the space to share their feedback. Thanks, all.

@ZOS_Kevin Thanks for the reply. With regard to the first paragraph, if the company acknowledges the length of the thread, the amount of feedback, and the time it will take to parse through and answer questions accordingly, as well as sharing all that with the teams involved, would that not suggest the wisdom of pulling this system change from the impending Update and returning with it later in the year when you have all had an opportunity to take the necessary time to do it justice and hold onto the chunk of the playerbase that is so adamantly opposed to the changes that currently the company shows no sign of moving on?

This system change is unique among major changes in all the MMORPGs I've been playing since 1998 in that it introduces a change that appeals to some and not to others but is being implemented in a way that unites both sets of players against it. Again, surely the 1,100+ comments deserve a more meaningful response by now than "thanks but we're still working on a Q&A and we don't have anything else to say at this time except to remind you of the forum rules". Surely your beta and launch players along with all those who've entered Tamriel since then are entitled to expect a bit more consideration than that?

It doesnt unite both side against it, lots of poeple still want it as long as some bugs like the bard college are fixed, i even know a few who woulnt mind it to lauch as it is(those few dont like questing thats why)

It unites most of us in its present form. You are making an assumption as to whether something constitutes a bug or is working as intended, and it is the failure of today's patch notes to even address that point that is likely to make us even more united. I totally get that the community is more or less evenly divided on the principle of account-wide achievements, but the way they were implemented initially on the PTS with no adjustments, fixes, or even mentions, in the two subsequent patches has been roundly criticised by those who support the principle every bit as much as by those opposed to it.

Earlier today around when the patch note where posted, gina did post in the bug report thread stating that bugs outlied in that thread where going to be fixed in the remaining pts patch meaning that at some of the problem spoken about here are indeed bugs.

But i do agree i should have been in the known issue part of the patch note

Edit misremembered the post being in this thread

That would also mean that they plan on pushing this awful change out to live.

The writing is on the wall.

Gina's exact wording again:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks for the reports here, everyone. Just wanted to let you know we have been keeping an eye on this thread and are still working on getting some of the things called out from this thread fixed in future PTS patches.

Emphasis mine.

At the time she wrote that, here were the bug reports remaining from that thread that had not been fixed yet:

• Earned by tooltips going to the wrong characters.
• Unrepeatable museum quests
• Precursor quest not requiring collecting all the parts
• Account-wide achievements in the category "Character"
• Delves auto-completing
• World bosses auto-completing
• World events (dolmens, gysers, etc.) auto-completing
• Undaunted reputation for dailies not increasing
• Delve boss cooldown timers resetting when the delve is discovered
• Melina Cassel not offering quest for the Markarth Friend In Deed achievement.
• Two NPCs overlapping on a throne in Elsweyr
• Vampire / Werewolf skill unlocks unpurchaseable in the Crown Store
• Some strangeness with map completion inside vs. outside of zone, although this may be an issue with addons
• NPC not appearing in Orsinium quest, A Question of Succession. This may be a rare bug on live, since I was able to just log off and back in to reset the NPC.

That's a pretty big list, and the vast majority of the bugs in the list are directly AwA related, so I agree that AwA is probably getting released in some form. How many of the bugs get fixed, and which ones are working as intended, if any, will determine to a large degree how awful this update is when it makes it to live.

I also thought Gina's vague wording was kind of odd, like she's under some embargo from giving a definitive answer on which bugs are being worked on. Blink twice if you are being held hostage, Gina!

I feel really bad for her and Kevin, having to read through so many repeat complaints without being able to put them to rest.

I also would like to add additional NPCs that react strangely or do not appear at all, such as the Markarth NPC for "Taking Up the Mantle" achievement that involves story at the end of the yearlong Dark Heart of Skyrim storyline.

And also some of the things that were discovered today; such as the Undaunted ghost NPC reacting to Vaults of Madness achievements even when you aren't on the toon that completed that dungeon, and Clivia Tharn reacting to the emperor achievement (again, even when you aren't on the toon that got emperor).

Vrienda

silvereyes wrote: »

I feel really bad for her and Kevin, having to read through so many repeat complaints without being able to put them to rest.

This would frustrate me to no end if I was in their position. So oof.

Praying we get answers soon. I want to go back to loving this game.

Raevenglass

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

If this goes live they might as well just roll out template characters with all of the goody bags, 3600 cp, and all gear sets unlocked and 1 billion gold, and all quests marked complete.

That's called the PTS.

peacenote

Zezin wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

Yes ESO needs even more pay to win obviously... People need to stop asking for more stuff on the crown store SMH.

I have been reading the past few days of comments and the Crown Store idea is actually not as bad of an idea as it may sound on the surface. I was about to start writing a response suggesting this when someone beat me to it.

Opinions on this topic run the gamut, from "I want EVERYTHING to stay tracked individually" to "I want NOTHING to be tracked individually" ... and lots of stances in between. There are definitely people who do not want anyone (themselves or other players) to be able to differentiate between what each of their characters did, and a compromise of a roll-up tab would not satisfy that desire.

The thing is... the Crown Store can "sell" free things. We now get feeder quests and claim event rewards and subscribers can claim "no cost" statuettes. The more I think about it, the more I'm surprised ZOS didn't monetize this. If it wasn't announced that we were just "getting" this, they could have easily sold something around achievement completion, given the passion on this topic. To either side. However NOW if that was done it would truly be a horrible move.

Anyway, with the Crown Store, ZOS has in place a delivery system to apply any changes to our accounts with the click of a button. They probably could, without too much trouble, change the automatic achievement application into something you buy, for 0 crowns. And they could purposefully make an API so that add-ons could make it automatic for PC folks, and maybe introduce a toggle or something for console. It could look just like the skyshards, but simplified. An item that will apply all new achievement progress from other characters to the current character.

This would be more overhead for the players who want everything to be ONLY account-wide than having it happen automatically, but it would address most of the concerns for the people who don't want any differentiation. They could truly copy progress to their mains whenever they use an alt. They could show a trifecta or whatever on an alt AS IF THEY EARNED IT PLAYING THAT TOON. On the other hand, folks who don't WANT characters to get certain things would continue to be able to keep their characters from acquiring achievements and even the titles that go with them.

Considering this, I'd say a solution that would meet the needs of most views expressed would then be:

• The addition of an account-wide progress tab, alongside the character-specific view we have now.
• A free "apply all new achievement progress" purchase in the Crown Store
• A change so that all rewards, except titles, look at the account-wide progress tab to grant access to rewards. This would allow folks to "mix and match" alts for combo rewards like trophies or achievements that require getting four achievements to get the overarching reward. This would also allow folks to furniture shop on any character.
• Titles would apply only if the player chooses to apply achievement progress and allow the alt to actually "earn" the achievement.

I think the only concerns left not addressed with such a solution would be the people who want to use titles and achievements for gate-keeping (or bragging rights) or the people who are trying to avoid such practices by obtaining account wide achievements. If all this was done, obviously achievements and titles could no longer be relied upon to "guarantee" that someone has done something on a specific character. Now, of course, with carries and whatnot, those things aren't really guaranteed now. Gate-keeping would still exist; it will just transition to different forms.

There is one more area that should be addressed. It falls in the cross-section of folks who replay content specifically TO earn the titles or achievements who will stop playing content because they now can just copy the progress. This, as multiple end game players have pointed out, is really a different problem. The issue here is that there is not a good reward system for replaying difficult, time-consuming content, so much so that the loss of titles being exclusively character-specific is bringing on fears of the death of end-game. For "normal" content, the ability to separately track character progress and see that little pop-up is enough for many, but something more special is needed for content that can take hours or weeks or moths to accomplish. This is described well by Nefas, here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/597224/the-inevitable-discussion-of-ingame-rewards/p1 And there are options, from allowing achievement points to obtain rewards like a currency, to adding achievements with special rewards for number of times completed to the account-wide view, to a new currency awarded at the end of difficult content that provides other rewards. My imagination here is probably lacking compared to some, but you get the idea.

I am curious if the idea of better rewards, combined with an account-wide view, and the ability to apply alt progress to your main with the click of a button... would that satisfy almost everyone, if feasible?

Now, the question of course would come... why couldn't the Crown Store item be remove progress or opt out instead of requiring people to apply the progress, and the answer to that is - it's much harder to clear data than it is to apply it. Philosophically it's fine (with me at least) if you wanted the "burden" of choice to be on the people who want to track character specific data, but programmatically I don't think it's practical. All of the current Crown Store things now, like the way skyshard purchases work, look to what's unlocked on the account and ADD to a specific character. Therefore I think applying that concept to achievements would best align with how things work today.

Anyway, with this "Q&A" (even the term Q&A is disheartening as it lends itself to explanation, not discussion or information-gathering) I am losing hope that the complexity of the situation is going to be addressed, let alone adjusted, but I do think this is significantly different than the vMA weapon situation as in this case many, many people stand to lose data and whole play styles (not combat styles, but literally ways players choose to interact with the game) will be wiped out, whereas, while frustrating to many, it is true that nothing was being removed from players with that vMA change. And this difference is why I keep reading this thread and attempting to help clarify a complex situation. Unlike many many many other controversial changes, this CANNOT BE REVERSED. Once the data is overwritten, no matter how much the general players who aren't watching PTS cry out when the changes hit live, or how much people later realize those little pop-ups added to their fun that they are now missing, I am 100% certain days or even hours of play would not be rolled back to "fix" this. So this may be the most important change for ZOS to get right in the history of ESO's existence. If the desire to keep the nostalgic data and character-data for the variety of reasons expressed throughout the forums is under-estimated, adding character-achievements back won't entice players who have left to come back... because the data that's in the game now is a big part of what they want.

I don't claim to know the numbers or even that folks who want to keep this data are in the "majority"... but losing even 5 or 10% of the community, if it could have been avoided, is a situation where we all stand to lose, no matter what "side" we are on... because this is an MMO and large numbers of people playing in the world is what keeps the game going. Something that makes most players happy is in everyone's best interest.

Raevenglass

I can't believe how much time I've spent reading this thread on the forums.

Hopefully we can all agree that there are quite a few different takes on this subject - and importantly - no one person's take is completely invalid.

I see why some would want AwA. I know how badly I want my character's achievements kept separate somehow, be it in a character specific window or some other solution mentioned in this thread.

I keep coming back to the idea that optional seems the best option. If there is absolutely NO way to let us keep our character's achievements separate, I hope ZOS will explain to us in the Q&A what the backend benefit is to them and the game for implementing this change.

I can deal with bad news (to me) if someone tells me why it is necessary. Maybe it fixes the lag in Cyro for some? I doubt it, but maybe there is a real reason that would improve gameplay overall.

When someone says "Everyone wants AwA." or "No one wants Awa" it turns this into a "which child does ZOS love more?" question. I doubt that is the real motivation for this change (ie someone wants it).

I'd just like to know what the reason is.

SilverBride

I'd like to know the reason, too.

silvereyes

peacenote wrote: »

Anyway, with this "Q&A" (even the term Q&A is disheartening as it lends itself to explanation, not discussion or information-gathering) I am losing hope that the complexity of the situation is going to be addressed, let alone adjusted

Which is kind of ironic, given how question and answer sessions are traditionally more of a back and forth. I remember that they did a Reddit AMA with a whole bunch of team members once, and it was a really great format.

The format we got with the arena weapons Q & A, with a Twitch streamer lobbing softball questions and practically hero-worshiping Rich was pretty nauseating to watch. I may have yelled at the screen a few times.

ArchangelIsraphel

SilverBride wrote: »

I'd like to know the reason, too.

I have the unsettling feeling that the sudden implementation might have something to do with the card game that's rolling out. I can't be certain it actually does, but the thought has been nagging at me. I think something was said about cards unlocking in relation to story progress in the reveal stream (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and if they want those card unlocks to be account wide....they might have chosen to do it this way.

Even so dyes and other things gained through achievements already unlock account wide so I also don't see why this would be necessary for the cards. Still...I can't help but wonder.

And if this is the case, I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

Jaraal

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I'd like to know the reason, too.

I have the unsettling feeling that the sudden implementation might have something to do with the card game that's rolling out. I can't be certain it actually does, but the thought has been nagging at me. I think something was said about cards unlocking in relation to story progress in the reveal stream (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and if they want those card unlocks to be account wide....they might have chosen to do it this way.

Even so dyes and other things gained through achievements already unlock account wide so I also don't see why this would be necessary for the cards. Still...I can't help but wonder.

And if this is the case, I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

Wow, that would really be adding insult to injury, if they are going to throw away 8 years and millions of hours of achievements and gameplay as well as sacrifice future replayability for a card game that most people never asked for or wanted.

I hope it’s not so!

SilverBride

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

...I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

I keep wavering between anger and sadness. These past 2 years have been incredibly stressful, then the pandemic on top of it. ESO is my safe place where I can come and be someone else for a little while. Where I can set goals for myself that nothing can stop me from achieving. Where I can explore the vast beautiful world on each character in their own way and at their own pace.

I'm not an end game player. I'm just a regular citizen of Tamriel who doesn't look at exploring and completing quests and achievements as a burden, but rather as a blessing. Because this is what brings me a few hours of happiness and relaxation every day.

Please look into other possible solutions before implementing this as it is now.

[Edited for clarity]

RaddlemanNumber7

Going forward, looking at High Isle, that will be affected by AwA as well. If High Isle is like Blackwood, we can see on the PTS that some of its content will be non-repeatable. Once and done, never to be seen again.

High Isle will start with the reduced replayability the rest of the game will soon have on Live. In my eyes this significantly reduces its value. I feel sorry for the people who have already paid full price for it.