The Inevitable Discussion of Ingame Rewards

Nefas

Introduction

The recent conversations surrounding the Account-wide achievements/titles on both the forums and other mediums have certainly caused some disconnected disagreement between the varying opinions regarding the upcoming changes

Regardless of the opinions (I personally lean towards account-wide achievements/titles being more positive than negative), I ultimately find that current discussions are completely irrelevant with people fighting over scraps and with some points being put forward as completely fallacious (whether you're arguing that replayability of content is intrinsically tied in with a sense of accomplishment on alternative characters or that players are silly for not realizing the ultimate reward is "fun" anyway, it's all understandable or perhaps valid to a degree) to the point emotion is clearly ruling over thought although in some cases, a difference of culture (console players tend to equate title/skin/achievement to player skill/status moreso than their PC counterparts) may explain some things too.

What should be focused on here is why people are passionate/upset about the titles. Simply put, it's one of the very few things that people perceive to have as far as endgame "rewards" go which is rather sad and should be the focal point of all future discussions when it comes to, well, the entire reward system across the board or lack thereof. In a sense, people shouldn't be mad that account-wide titles are happening but mad at the fact that's pretty much all they "had". Indeed, this isn't just isolated to "endgame" players but ALL ESO players regardless of the game activity they partake in.

In this post, I'd like to present an overview of ESO's reward structure and how the severe lack of satisfaction/rewards has contributed to not only a part of the endgame minority's backlash over titles, the powderkeg that was the Respec Scrolls fiasco on social media and a large part of the lack of growth or interest in specific ingame activities. You are more than free to disagree with me/others or attack my stance, but do please keep the thread civil as I'd prefer to not have it locked, thank you!

What, Where and Why are the Rewards?

The degree of a dopamine rush is quite different between collecting a pet just by porting to a new zone or dungeon and collecting a pet by completing content. The same can be said for any kind of reward whether it's a mount (Godslayer, Planesbreaker, Ebon Dwemer Wolf) or personality (Worm Wizard, Beast) or skins. In short, when players think of rewards they often think of collectibles such as skins, titles, the achievement points, mounts, personalities and whatever that can be collected through not only a sense or reality of progression but from the actual content they buy or play.

With this being said, such rewards have become quite scarce in recent years with skins having the equivalent or superior version of it in the Crown Store and the sheer amount of Mounts locked behind what is essentially gambling on the Crown Store alongside the personalities/skins/emotes/other collectibles.

The consistency of rewards has also suffered. Perhaps it's body markings this time instead of a skin. Perhaps instead of a Hoarver pet it's a memento that is simply another unused addition to the vast collection of mementos you sometimes barely use or perhaps it's the amount of Transmute Crystals (as of Update 28-33, you get 1 Crystal from Battlegrounds as opposed to 10 Crystals from a Random Normal or 10 Crystals from organizing a total of 12 people for a Trial versus doing two basegame Hard Modes with up to 3 others for 10 Crystals/4 Undaunted Keys) you can get. Maybe in one Trial trifecta, you don't even get a mount, you get a memento. Or if you do get a mount, you don't get a skin. No matter what, there is a clear lack of consistency when it comes rewards in the game whether we want to talk about quality, mode or availability. The nature of this consistency can overlap with player behavior such as many players treating Battlegrounds objective matches as Deathmatches because of the perception of a lack of worthwhile rewards even if you do win.

This inconsistency is compounded by the lack of what players perceive to be rewards, which in juxtaposition to the overwhelming presence of what players desire being located in the Crown Store, not only contribute to Crown Store fatigue (much like combat balance fatigue) but also a sense of bitterness and dejection that can manifest in tangible form as there are no other alternatives besides dealing with an abysmal gambling rate, encouragement of a certain # of purchases or an extremely grindy alternative that's artificially capped to encourage consumer behavior towards purchase.

No sane player should call for an end to the microtransactions of the Crown Store as it's clear the proceeds help support the game in both a corporate and financial sense however it is troubling when compared to other games (as an example, FFXIV has over 200 earnable mounts) The Elder Scrolls Online falls rather short of fulfilling the players' sense of achievement in rewards. I would also like to mention here that this is not a zero-sum game where the Crown Store mounts HAVE to go away or that ingame mounts/collectibles be better, that certain players should only be able to earn/buy things, or vice versa, my argument is ultimately that there should be a healthy balance between the base game and its microtransactions store rather than what we have now.

It is of further note that no sane player or content creator I've talked to or observed throughout the 8 years I've been playing since beta has also said "yes, there's enough rewards in this game, we don't need any more rewards, we don't want to earn mounts, we don't want to earn costumes/polymorphs, we don't want to earn skins, we don't want to earn pets, we don't want to see any new incentives for overland/PvP/PvE/BGs/Trials, etc."

When players call for more rewards to be added to the game, they often do so from the limited perspective of their demographic. Casual players want rewards that are not only earnable but accessible. Endgame players bemoan they want rewards that are not only earnable but encourage them to keep sticking around. Most players regardless of demographic or playstyle clearly understand that there is something wrong or at bare minimum amiss when it comes to what they can work towards or gain. I believe it's time we stop isolating the discussion of rewards to any specific group of players but rather open up all future discussions of rewards to all players at all levels/tiers.

But what kind of rewards do players want or maybe in some instances, actually need?

The Nature of Incentives, Rewards and Players

There is unfortunately a terrible complexity and difficulty in the determining of rewards particularly on the dev-end. Which players get what? How do players get what? When do players get what? What will affect the ingame economy, etc?

Much like the proposed compromise of a "gilded title" system put forth by many players, this system objectively changes nothing whatsoever about the incentives of replaying or picking up the content apart from being a short-term solution to appease people. Skins, cosmetics or other "one time" rewards are also not the greatest in terms of retaining either interest or communities although they can certainly act as initial catalysts or motivators in encouraging people to start progressing through the content. It is clear that the presence of desirable rewards can act as incentives as evident by many players still wanting to buy/play Fang Lair runs (released in 2018) to this very day along with a few other similar examples.

However, it is no surprise at all why once large numbers of people attain what they want (PvE skins for example), there is a sharp drop in retention or interest for the Trials they got it from which can have interesting effects in that demographic or at least for the next group of people wanting to tackle that content. Certainly some people stick around regardless of the lack of reward, perhaps they've forged their own values, copium or sense of achievement through other things such as scorepushing, teaching people or deriving satisfaction from resulting social interactions. This applies to PvP as well where after many years of performance degradation and lack of content, the incentives for players fell for players who wanted to pick up or stay on PvP. The few PvP incentives and dysfunctional reward system (a dye for Grand Overlord, how gaining AP works arguably does not encourage actually doing the activity of PvP and so forth) simply leads to it being something supported only by the attractiveness of the combat system (which is dubious for PvP since the combat needs to work for it to be attractive) and again, social interaction.

There is however an eventual hard limit to how much players can incentivize for themselves and their communities within the game. We've seen this happen particularly with PvE/PvP where despite trying to incentivize through ingame prizes, events or whatnot the turnouts by the end of this long process can be remarkably small. Once you complete the content and whatever comes with it, your behavior changes into a cyclical one which has increasingly been encouraged since 2017 (Curated Sets, the philosophy of the game's direction, how the game mechanics are implemented and so on) and which also conveniently encourages some of that same consumer behavior as mentioned above.

This brings us to Perennial Rewards which are, in theory, the flexible parts of a reward system in The Elder Scrolls Online. Why do you do Random Normals on each character? Why do you go to Cyrodiil to farm just enough AP to get Tier 1? Why do you farm specific dungeons or go to specific places and stay there for hours on end? Why did a bunch of PvP'ers also do Veteran Craglorn Trials in 2015 and stuck with doing Trials after? In the case of those PvP'ers in 2015 (who would later become Mechanically Challenged on PC/NA), gold Sun jewelry that was tradeable to other players outside of the group/Trial could be sold. In short, Transmute Crystals, motif collection, furnishing plans and so forth that act as either personal or economic incentives definitely encourage you to do such activities.

There is certainly a limit to one-time rewards like skins and titles but perennial rewards in whatever form it may be could be something that the devs could explore further alongside rigid rewards. Yet, just like regular rewards, there is a huge absence of these kinds of rewards as well in at least the activities that are the least popular with most ESO players. As an experiment, come up with an idea of a reward or reward system for perhaps a leaderboard or an activity, anything at all... and the result is sadly that no matter what you come up with, it's a terrific idea because in such a vast void anything will stand out as excellent because there is pretty much nothing else.

Lastly we need to approach the more dangerous and (in my opinion) unsustainable territory of rewards in the form of Item Sets. Item Sets are a huge part of this game (as of Update 32, at least in ESOU's database, there's over 520 entries for Item Sets alone). It's clear that player expectations and the dev-end response to meet those expectations grew exponentially over the years. What rewards do players expect from Dungeons now that there are no longer "good" cosmetics/collectibles? Item sets. Why should players buy our next DLC/Chapter? Item sets. Both players and devs have dug themselves into this hole over the years with these Item Sets and it's a rather vicious cycle which I suspect will meet its limit at one point in the future.

Is There A Solution?

As far as the issue of Item Sets as rewards go, offering better collectibles or grinde-able rewards in whatever form in place of item sets until further Item Set audits/combat balancing can resolve the myriad of item sets that see barely any use by many players would be a start but this is such a complicated matter that I certainly don't envy whoever needs to solve it.

As for everything else, we just need a start to this discussion in the form of this issue being raised more frequently until there's a firm response. It's important in my opinion as we steadily approach the 10th anniversary of ESO's release that players start asking themselves and also ask the devs if there ever will be a consistent, ESO-unique reward system (satisfying for every player of every activity) much like there has been an ESO-unique system for pretty much everything so far from combat to account management because as it is currently I would certainly argue that the current reward system is incredibly weak or completely missing in many parts of the game.

_Zathras_

Nefas wrote: »

players start asking themselves and also ask the devs if there ever will be a consistent, ESO-unique reward system (satisfying for every player of every activity)

Short answer: No.

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 20M players. All individuals, with their own wants, needs, and drives. As with everything else in life, you can't possibly please everyone. The discussions on the forums in the last week deeply underscore that, although any read of any forum in the last 20 years will also give the same results.

Massive_Stain

Yes, I agree - its not about the titles/achievements, it is about the reward system overall. I like the idea of strengthening the perennial rewards system to incentivize replayability in ALL facets of the game.

furiouslog

Holy cow, Nefas posted on the forums!

Great post, Nefas, reserving this space for comment after I have digested this all.

Edit:

Okay, this seems like a no-brainer and possibly over-simplified, but how about offering an appropriate amount of Seals of Endeavor as rewards for re-doing certain achievements? The system already exists, and it gives players choices..

Another "reward" not touched on is the sales of trial and dungeon runs to players who can't clear within their own capabilities for gold, which is used to buy crowns, which is used to buy stuff in the store. Offering seals as rewards cuts out the middle man, although I'm sure guilds would still sell runs to players.

prof_doom

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

players start asking themselves and also ask the devs if there ever will be a consistent, ESO-unique reward system (satisfying for every player of every activity)

Short answer: No.

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 2M players. All individuals, with their own wants, needs, and drives. As with everything else in life, you can't possibly please everyone. The discussions on the forums in the last week deeply underscore that, although any read of any forum in the last 20 years will also give the same results.

Well, then we might as well just stop doing any kind of rewards, by that standard.
Obviously you're never going to make everyone happy, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

The simplest answer to the issue is to just hand out a universal currency. Hell, we already have one. Hand out seals of endeavor for more stuff. Do a vet trial run, get some seals. Win a battleground, get some seals. Take a keep in Cyrodill, get some seals.

Redeem them for whatever you want.

Kalik_Gold

Create a token system for all quests. Make harder content Trials reward more of these tokens when completed by a large amount. Release new, quality, rewards in this system that doesn't require Crowns/Gems/Endeavors.....

Random casual can earn his tokens slow. Trial raiders and VET DLC dungeon runners can amass tokens quick.

It is similar enough to the now Crown/Endeavor system where it won't throw off the ecosystem, now that Zos has done that themselves.

ShawnLaRock

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Defending

As someone who has about 7000 hours in game without entering a single trial content (which is reasonably considered as a large subset of end-game content), I wholeheartedly agree that the in-game rewards achievable for the hardest contents in the game are often lackluster. Putting it bluntly, I have not been incentivized at all to even enter a trial.

Just by mounting up with my companion flexing on 2 different Crown Store Radiant Apex mounts by the Craglorn Wayshrine is enough to net me whispers and compliments without any effort. It is not even an exaggeration to mention that I can provide weekly conversation screenshots basically along the lines of new players asking “Where do you get this?” and me having to reply “Crown Store only, no longer available currently”.

Which brings me to the point, that honestly some part of me feel sympathy to the players, mentors, communities and guilds who dedicate huge amounts of efforts coaching/providing improvement tips/improving their characters – Only to receive mainly the social interaction aspect as a self-derived reward. 



If any developer happens to read this, personally I appreciate the Crown Store and the hugely talented art and design team for enabling an option for me to obtain the best-looking cosmetics in the game. But I wholeheartedly agree with Nefas that Perennial Rewards for end-game content should at least be discussed and reviewed, which is arguably a long-term benefit for ESO.

Thank you.

GaianSpirit

As of next patch they are introducing a non-tradeable motif only earnable by Tel Vars, the Dragonguard Berzerker. That is def a step in the right direction. This will motivate me as an endgame pve-player to do what is needed and dust off my pvp-skills to go earn those motifs. I think that is a step in the right direction, more of this for every demographic!

StevieKingslayer

I agree with the majority of this.

The fact is; Im annoyed about the account wide achievements because you're right, it's all I had. For now, Godslayer is out of my reach, as is a few of the larger trial trifecta titles etc. But then I sit there and I think, well, it's a mount...so what? I enjoy collecting things, but what I dont enjoy is collecting mounts, so Im in no rush to head to that. I enjoy pvp, but all I get for GO is a dye. I was so disappointed in the emp costume it wasnt even funny - it dyes horribly

But see, I still -get- these things. They aren't great, but I get them. I remember there was a particular dungeon that you trifecta and you essentially get nothing for it. I believe you get a title for no death, but nothing for trifecta, no skin or anything. I cant remember what it's called, but I know it's there. It bewildered me that I put in that effort and got nothing, but I can swipe my credit card and get a skin.

Im fine with microtransactions, and though I dont agree with the crates, Im okay with them existing and what they offer. But there is not enough rewards in the game for people to go after the hard content.

I just think MMO's should have more rewards, especially earnable rewards. I wouldn't be so pissed about it if I had more stuff to go after and distract me to be honest. I mean there's GO....but Im just waiting for midyear for that, why should I suffer

Faulgor

I remember a time when even item rewards were sparse or terrible. They tackled that problem during One Tamriel I believe, which redistributed specific sets and pieces to specific activities. The addition of more motifs also certainly helped, although there is a lack of consistency in how to acquire motifs, and some methods are better than others (treasure map leads!).

But outside of motifs, cosmetic rewards are indeed lackluster. I got into Cyrodiil PvP mainly for the cosmetics, mainly things you can earn with Gladiator Tokens, but nothing has been added in quite some time. Instead, the addition of the Dragonguard Berserker outfit to IC treasure vaults shows a misunderstanding which activities actually need to have rewards tied to them.

Indeed, most cosmetic rewards these days seem to be tied to events. Which is great for the events, but leaves the meat of the game deserted by comparison. Not to mention the event rewards don't always make sense (Snowhawk Mage outfit during the Summerset event? What?).

For Perennial Rewards, they seem to bank on Transmutation Crystals, which is not a terrible idea in theory. But I don't think it's enough to encourage replayability of specific content. But what other consumables are there? Would we really want to see gold upgrade materials as gameplay rewards?

Chips_Ahoy

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Agree, hard to keep reading or take him seriously when he says such nonsense.

I play because I like to wander, do a quest and its story, sometimes I want to find and read a book, other times I want to steal, I don't give a damn about the rewards.

And it seems that this is not Sane, according to the OP.

And I also find the unnecessary use of buzzwords, hilarious.

jaws343

GaianSpirit wrote: »

As of next patch they are introducing a non-tradeable motif only earnable by Tel Vars, the Dragonguard Berzerker. That is def a step in the right direction. This will motivate me as an endgame pve-player to do what is needed and dust off my pvp-skills to go earn those motifs. I think that is a step in the right direction, more of this for every demographic!

It's not earnable by Tel Var, it's earnable by Key Fragments. You will need to do zero PVP to earn it. Just buy Key Frags from traders or farm PVE enemies for them.

Hurbster

The balance of items you can earn in-game compared to what is on the cash store is skewed towards the cash store to a large degree.

How many mounts are available to get in-game? Either for gold or achievements? Now compare that to all the mounts that are available on the cash store.

And lets not forget, many of these mounts are simply reskins using the same skeletal structure.

Yes the game is buy to play, but many of us sub to ESO plus and the crowns we get may cover a few character changes if we are lucky.

If we had one of Asmongold's mount-offs in ESO the winner would be the person with the biggest wallet.

tomofhyrule

The point about one-time rewards versus perennial rewards is an interesting one, since that's what it feels like is happening in a way.

With the current achievement system, we can earn something on each character. Someone can challenge themselves to take one character of every class through vMA and get flawless. Each time, they get the popup giving them the "congrats, you did it."

With the PTS system, achievements are relegated to the same one-and-done system as cosmetics. "Congratulations, you did flawless on a character ever." And that's it. The next character who does flawless...what's the point, it's not like you get any more for doing flawless with them than you would for a normal completion.

The idea of more in-game cosmetics and fewer in the store I also feel is a touchy subject. Obviously people would rather get away not buying something, but the ESO base does skew more casual than most games, and even on the forums we continually talk about what we think is 'average player capability'... which is probably within the top 10-20% of the playerbase. Putting many rewards behind difficult content leaves it unobtainable for the majority of the playerbase. And even then, once you have the MHK skin, you have it. It's one and done. There's no special anything for your second Cauldron trifecta... at least not on the same character.

Offering something that allows you to buy from the store... ZOS knows that will reduce sales of store items. It would drive players to run content (see the number of people who farm monster style pages), but everyone knows that that's only a small subsection of the playerbase that can do it. After all, there aren't that many people who go around with the Rockgrove mount.

I also think the 'quality' of the reward has an effect as well. Consider how many people still buy runs for Fang Lair or March compared to the number of people who'll buy Moon Hunter or Bloodroot runs. Why? Personalities are highly desirable, skins and hats... not so much. The fact that these apply globally allows people to RP with these elements - I have a character of my own who I wanted the Beast personality for (and the MoS HM title), but he's mostly an RP character. I got both on my main. I'd be very happy to put them on to make that character appropriate.

And as another note, it's one thing if a prestigious reward is something really flashy like the Sunspire mount. But when a reward is something mundane and useful to lots of people like personalities... that only causes consternation. Imagine if that datamined Bard personality ended up being the reward for the new trial trifecta - people are already champing at the bit to get it, and then you lock it behind one of the hardest things to do in game? Sure, it'd drive run sellers, but is that a positive? What does one have to do with the other? See also the current debate from the Housing community that the Nord fishing boat is locked behind vKA - the Venn diagram of 'endgame raiders' and 'decorating enthusiasts' doesn't overlap as well as it could.

Like I've said, I can deal with whatever system that we get, but this one does feel like a loss in a way. And it's not even just with bigger content - the current PTS system will not even let you see uncompleted delves on the map anymore. The current PTS system will not give you even an acknowledgement of doing part of the main quest on a character beyond escaping Coldharbour. These aren't and have never been big rewards, just the bit of a smile from completing something as mundane as chopping wood and finding your first Heartwood (I still remember that it took a few days for my secondary to get lucky enough to get his first Bast). But with this system, all gone. I can look at him and see all achievements completed... by another character. It's the example of being in a group project when one person did all of the work and you're just sitting there wanting to be acknowledged.

Faulgor

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Agree, hard to keep reading or take him seriously when he says such nonsense.

I play because I like to wander, do a quest and its story, sometimes I want to find and read a book, other times I want to steal, I don't give a damn about the rewards.

And it seems that this is not Sane, according to the OP.

And I also find the unnecessary use of buzzwords, hilarious.

Not sure how you interpret Nefas' post this way, or what's objectionable about him mentioning dopamine.
That's not a buzzword, it's a neurotransmitter relevant in motivation. That doesn't mean these dopamine cycles of intermittent/non-guaranteed rewards are necessary to enjoy something, nor that it guarantees enjoyment for that matter.

_Zathras_

prof_doom wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

players start asking themselves and also ask the devs if there ever will be a consistent, ESO-unique reward system (satisfying for every player of every activity)

Short answer: No.

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 2M players. All individuals, with their own wants, needs, and drives. As with everything else in life, you can't possibly please everyone. The discussions on the forums in the last week deeply underscore that, although any read of any forum in the last 20 years will also give the same results.

Well, then we might as well just stop doing any kind of rewards, by that standard.

It is a realistic answer, not a standard.

People have been asking for years for account wide achievements. They finally get it, and..people are still unhappy.

Extend that to..well, anything, that has been announced. Some like it, and they will contentedly keep playing the game. And then there is the resident community on the forums who will absolutely bring it to the top of the page.

Even on the most basic level: Monthly Daily Rewards. It doesn't matter what's up for grabs, there is guaranteed to be at least one thread of people voicing their opinions on it. What people forget is why the Daily Rewards became so bland and homogenzied: the forum population was set on fire when big ticket rewards were offered at the very end of the month, creating division and inciting a lot of negative feedback. They couldn't please everyone, so they neutered it.

There very much is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position that plagues any game. Devs can't put out content and rewards based on mob rule, or the fear of mob retribution. Because the mob is always a vocal minority. Which often gets forgotten in threads like this. The discontent that is visible here is not representative of the greater whole, AND, if you look up the actors in the threads, you will see a well established history of participation along these lines.

In general, the forums have been particularly toxic as of late. Disproportionately so. I attribute that to large news items dropping that are particularly galvanizing to the forum residents. So..people are primed and ready to set fire to anything that comes along.

Back to my original answer to the OP's question: it simply isn't possible to find a "consistent, ESO-unique reward system satisfying for every player of every activity". If that is the goal you are chasing, then you have already failed.

Pepegrillos

I think the contrast between the amount and quality of things that show up in the Crown Store and the rewards available in-game is just too stark. That contrast is sometimes even a source of nearly personal embarrassment.

Just to pick one type of item as an example: mounts. A few times I've had to explain to friends who were new to the game that if they wanted a cool-looking mount, they had two options. They either swipe their credit cards or become 1% end-game raiders. I know there is the dwarven wolf. I know we get a few mounts once in a while with events. There are also those shabby horses in the stables. The issue is that there probably are more mounts in a single Crown Crate season. Then you add other MMORPGs as a comparison parameter and things get worse.

What about throwing some crumbs to the average player? Maybe reskin some of the Crown Store mounts and throw them around with a low % drop in world bosses, regular dungeons, or tied to crafting. A few could have a chance to drop in the rewards of the worthy or from the bosses in Imperial City. Others could be a reward for achieving a certain pvp rank, etc.

Saieden

_Zathras_ wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

players start asking themselves and also ask the devs if there ever will be a consistent, ESO-unique reward system (satisfying for every player of every activity)

Short answer: No.

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 2M players. All individuals, with their own wants, needs, and drives. As with everything else in life, you can't possibly please everyone. The discussions on the forums in the last week deeply underscore that, although any read of any forum in the last 20 years will also give the same results.

Well, then we might as well just stop doing any kind of rewards, by that standard.

It is a realistic answer, not a standard.

People have been asking for years for account wide achievements. They finally get it, and..people are still unhappy.

Extend that to..well, anything, that has been announced. Some like it, and they will contentedly keep playing the game. And then there is the resident community on the forums who will absolutely bring it to the top of the page.

Even on the most basic level: Monthly Daily Rewards. It doesn't matter what's up for grabs, there is guaranteed to be at least one thread of people voicing their opinions on it. What people forget is why the Daily Rewards became so bland and homogenzied: the forum population was set on fire when awesome rewards were offered at the very end of the month, creating division and inciting a lot of negative feedback. They couldn't please everyone, so they neutered it.

There very much is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position that plagues any game. Devs can't put out content and rewards based on mob rule, or the fear of mob retribution. Because the mob is always a vocal minority. Which often gets forgotten in threads like this. The discontent that is visible here is not representative of the greater whole, AND, if you look up the actors in the threads, you will see a well established history of participation along these lines.

In general, the forums have been particularly toxic as of late. Disproportionately so. I attribute that to large news items dropping that are particularly galvanizing to the forum residents. So..people are primed and ready to set fire to anything that comes along.

Back to my original answer to the OP's question: it simply isn't possible to find a "consistent, ESO-unique reward system satisfying for every player of every activity". If that is the goal you are chasing, then you have already failed.

What your entire post boils down to is that it can never be perfect, so we should all just be happy with we have. The point is that the rewards we get for hundreds, if not thousands, of hours of time and effort, are objectively really poor. If you want proof of this, simply search "MMO most prestigious things to flex" on youtube and you will understand. We don't want rewards to be perfect, we just want them to exist.

_Zathras_

Saieden wrote: »

What your entire post boils down to is that it can never be perfect, so we should all just be happy with we have.

Nope.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Back to my original answer to the OP's question: it simply isn't possible to find a "consistent, ESO-unique reward system satisfying for every player of every activity". If that is the goal you are chasing, then you have already failed.

My point is that not everyone can be pleased. Trying to find One Reward To Rule Them All is futile.

All you have to do is read the threads in this forum, or any other, going back as far as you can tolerate. It simply isn't possible to achieve what the OP is proposing,

prof_doom

_Zathras_ wrote: »

People have been asking for years for account wide achievements. They finally get it, and..people are still unhappy.

Wanting account wide achievements/titles and wanting more rewards for doing harder content aren't in conflict with each other.
Let's say, for example, that I love Sunspire. I've got Godslayer on 18 alts already, and happily join anyone running Sunspire in any guild.

However, I let's say that I hate Halls of Fabrication. I'd love to never have to run it again, and am happy not to have to re-earn the title.

So yes, I'd be a person who's both happy that I have account wide titles, and would love if I'd get something more from running my favorite trial as often as I do.

Kityn

Nefas, you rock. And you are much more articulate than me, but this is what I've been trying to say to people.

For me personally, getting a title once is fine. I want every achievement on one character, it's just how I am. But I'll redo stuff I find fun quite a few times. The day after I got Gryphon Heart I was back in Cloudrest helping people get their first hard mode clear.

A friend of mine told me he has achieved Gryphon Heart 9 times on the same character. He doesn't get a new title but he gets the satisfaction of achieving it, AND the satisfaction of helping countless others get it. As someone who runs a lot of training runs for people, I totally get this.

For me, it was exciting logging all my characters in on the PTS and see my main character get credit for some dungeon hard modes I got on other characters. Yes, I'm addicted to achievement points, at 40k+ and counting. I'm also more likely to try to get those achieves on other characters like my tanks, knowing my main, a healplar, will show the credit for the dungeon trifecta or whatever.

Chips_Ahoy

Faulgor wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Agree, hard to keep reading or take him seriously when he says such nonsense.

I play because I like to wander, do a quest and its story, sometimes I want to find and read a book, other times I want to steal, I don't give a damn about the rewards.

And it seems that this is not Sane, according to the OP.

And I also find the unnecessary use of buzzwords, hilarious.

Not sure how you interpret Nefas' post this way, or what's objectionable about him mentioning dopamine.
That's not a buzzword, it's a neurotransmitter relevant in motivation. That doesn't mean these dopamine cycles of intermittent/non-guaranteed rewards are necessary to enjoy something, nor that it guarantees enjoyment for that matter.

I know what Dopamine is, anyone who exercises daily has a good daily dose, I don't need it from a video game.

I didn't mean that word when I say buzzwords.

I just don't share the passion he shows for a video game, some of his comparisons seem exaggerated to me.

And since I have no interest in deviating from the original topic, I already gave my point of view, it is the last thing I will say about it.

good luck OP!

Iron_Warrior

In terms of rewards i want 3 things:

1- Give me a reason to reply the content, a one time title isn't good enough. Give me materials that i can use or sell in traders. Motifs drop in value fast but materials are always needed for all levels of play. Let me make some gold by doing the group stuff. It sickens me that jumping from one resource node to another in craglorn is more profitable than actually doing the content. The only way to make good amount of gold out of doing group content is to sell carry runs which for someone like me that can only play with randoms either via group finder or chat in craglorn, is simply impossible. For when i run out of gold, i really want to have the option to say:"my gold is running low, let's queue for some vet dungeons".

2- Give me a reason to push for scoreboard. What's the point when the first person or the 100th person in leaderboard gets the same reward? At least give people a title for finishing a week in top 5 or top 10
And the next week you will lose that title if you are not on top again, or you get Former"X" behind your title similar to Former emperor title.

3- in terms of one time rewards: we get 4 dungeons and 1 trial each year. Zos releases a ton of mounts each year in the cash shop. Is it too much to ask for 3 or 5 of them to get reskinned and added to these contents as rewards? As nefas also said, people are still doing fang lair for personality. These types of rewards keeps the group contents alive.

caesarvs

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Agree, hard to keep reading or take him seriously when he says such nonsense.

I play because I like to wander, do a quest and its story, sometimes I want to find and read a book, other times I want to steal, I don't give a damn about the rewards.

And it seems that this is not Sane, according to the OP.

And I also find the unnecessary use of buzzwords, hilarious.

Not sure how you interpret Nefas' post this way, or what's objectionable about him mentioning dopamine.
That's not a buzzword, it's a neurotransmitter relevant in motivation. That doesn't mean these dopamine cycles of intermittent/non-guaranteed rewards are necessary to enjoy something, nor that it guarantees enjoyment for that matter.

I know what Dopamine is, anyone who exercises daily has a good daily dose, I don't need it from a video game.

I didn't mean that word when I say buzzword.

I don't share the passion he shows for a video game, some of his comparisons seem exaggerated to me.

But it seems like he really cares about the community, so even though I don't agree with a few things, if my vote counts for something or I have to do something, I'll do it.

And since I have no interest in deviating from the original topic, I already gave my point of view, it is the last thing I will say about it.

good luck OP!

well, at least you recognized that you (and shawn) was the one deviating from topic

Xebov

I dont think that there is any form of solution that would make ppl happy because there are to many personal preferences and feelings involved.

Your text contains several different fields:
PvP in Battlegrounds and Cyroddil has an issue with their participation rewards. You play the content to get AP which is a currency for goods and levels your rank which opens titles, colors and skillpoints. You dont get many players interested in it because the amounts of AP you get vs the amounts you need dont fit together. Players try it and notice that it will take way to long to get somewhere for them and simply ignore it. You could try to combat this. Reduce the AP costs, increase the AP rewards, make ranks cost less or make ranks account wide. No matter what you would do however ppl that like the content and played it might complain because players following after them get it easier, so you have an issue balancing new players vs old players.

For IC PvP you have a similar issue with Tel Var. Its ganking, stuff is expansive and gains are low. There is always a risk of loosing alot of your work. As such players look at it and ignore it because they see little gain in playing it. Solving this will again be a an issue with balancing new and existing players out.

For Achievments you have the general issue that since they started to come into wider existance in games players use them as some sort of red line to follow around. Thats a general issue because some like to show of and some simply dont have any goal unless its given to them. Rewardwise it becomes complicated. There are many titles, which are easy to make, and also many pets and mementos and colors. Now noone walks around and is exited about mementos or pets at all because there are so many of them. Skins, Personalities and Mounts are more interesting to ppl, but mainly because there are so few and as a result they are recognizable. If you would get alot of mounts for example you would end up in the same corner like pets where you get just another mount. The issue that you have to overcome here is what to put where because everyone has different expectations and noone will be happy if what they like most is to common und rare. So its hard to make more players happy here as well.

Peronsally i like account based achievments and easy access rewards. As such iam not a huge fan of spendign time developing stuff like trifecta mounts that hardly anyone can access. Foe me the best way to solve the issue would be to reevaluate mechanics around the currences to make their content more interesting (players get a feeling they get somewhere) and rewards should become more global, so for things like personalities, skins or mounts simply have some sort of shop where ppl can buy what they like with currency that comes from their achievments with more time consuming ones giving more but every player gets a feeling that tehy can get something special just from doign some achievments.

SeaGtGruff

_Zathras_ wrote: »

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 2M players.

I think either you heard incorrectly, or that's a typo. When Pete Hines introduced and congratulated Rich Lambert during the Global Reveal, he said "20 million players." That doesn't change anything about your point, but the typo(?) caught my eye.

Gaebriel0410

I'm pretty simple, as I think the game is its own reward. I don't need incentives to play particular content. I'm a pretty allround player myself, I like veteran DLC stuff but also roleplaying, PVP, questing and generally exploring the world, basically whatever I'm in the mood for when I play.

I do agree that ESO has a terrible ingame reward structure, a lot of it geared solely towards endgame players. Like the only earnable mount is from one of the hardest raid achievements. Same for personalities, but for dungeons. Which on one hand is totally fine as beating a challenge to unlock some goodies is cool, but it's also very unbalanced to have earnable things only for the relatively small percentage that does that content.

Endgame players' time is not more valuable than non-endgame players' time.

If someone enjoys a much more casual activity like.. I dunno, collecting all the cooking recipes for example, why not award a title or emote for that as well? For a healthy game reward structure, imo there should be goodies to unlock through every aspect of it. For the players who need incentives to do things, there should be a breadth of options available reward-wise, to encourage such players to try out new aspects of the game, see new places and do new things. Some should take more time, some should be easy to get, but above all there should be a lot of it.

Like titles for example, I name this one since it's the easiest to implement. Games like LOTRO get this right, as you could just sneeze into a random direction and get a title for it. Unlocking stuff should offer fun customization options imo, since fashion is the true endgame after all.

I also think the aforementioned seals of endeavour is a cool thing to implement into achievements as well, since it's basically tokens to buy Stuff, which is always a good universal incentive.

_Zathras_

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

_Zathras_ wrote: »

As they mentioned in the Reveal, there are 2M players.

I think either you heard incorrectly, or that's a typo. When Pete Hines introduced and congratulated Rich Lambert during the Global Reveal, he said "20 million players." That doesn't change anything about your point, but the typo(?) caught my eye.

It was a typo. Thanks for catching it!

ShawnLaRock

caesarvs wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Chips_Ahoy wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I would like to see the original post edited and re-written without the conjecture and judgement relating to dopamine sources and player’s sanity questioned - as it detracts from the points in your proposal. Just stick to the facts and I will be the one to decide where and how I derive pleasure.

S.

Agree, hard to keep reading or take him seriously when he says such nonsense.

I play because I like to wander, do a quest and its story, sometimes I want to find and read a book, other times I want to steal, I don't give a damn about the rewards.

And it seems that this is not Sane, according to the OP.

And I also find the unnecessary use of buzzwords, hilarious.

Not sure how you interpret Nefas' post this way, or what's objectionable about him mentioning dopamine.
That's not a buzzword, it's a neurotransmitter relevant in motivation. That doesn't mean these dopamine cycles of intermittent/non-guaranteed rewards are necessary to enjoy something, nor that it guarantees enjoyment for that matter.

I know what Dopamine is, anyone who exercises daily has a good daily dose, I don't need it from a video game.

I didn't mean that word when I say buzzword.

I don't share the passion he shows for a video game, some of his comparisons seem exaggerated to me.

But it seems like he really cares about the community, so even though I don't agree with a few things, if my vote counts for something or I have to do something, I'll do it.

And since I have no interest in deviating from the original topic, I already gave my point of view, it is the last thing I will say about it.

good luck OP!

well, at least you recognized that you (and shawn) was the one deviating from topic

Incorrect analysis of my post.

My point is almost exactly this, though - that Nefas deviates from topic, and does so in a way that invalidates any of his potentially important assumptions or findings - and they did it in stream the other night when they were forming their argument, as well.

Calling into question someone’s sanity and / or reason for wanting / chasing rewards of any kind, is in no way Scientific, and makes any of the conclusions NOW based on Nefas’ own personal view / valuing of someone else’s pleasure - instead of actual evidence.

There are important things to be discussed in the orig post - don’t ruin it with judgement and name calling, is all I am saying,

All they really need to do is, a) say they think there needs to be more rewards; and, b) ask the question of how something as small as a Title could hold such an important meaning to a player - and how they would feel if that system changed. Nefas muddies it up, and ruins their own trajectory.

Here’s the thing:

I have collected every single level of Sweetroll I have ever found since I started playing 4+ years ago, and have stacks of each stored - including consumables, recipes, furnishings, and laundered stolen items. Is this potentially meaningless? Maybe. Is this possibly idiotic? Maybe. Does it give me some sort of deep-rooted Elder Scrolls lore meme pleasure? Absolutely… and it is no one else’s place to say this is sane or not, or to question the pleasure I personally get from it. Instead - if you asked, “why do you do this? what pleasure do you derive from it? how would you feel if someone said you couldn’t do it any more?” we could have a meaningful dialogue based on hypothesis and facts, instead of conjecture and assumption.

S.

DagenHawk

The reward is being allowed to log in and play.

Also cancel Christmas.