PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

wolfie1.0.

Raevenglass wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

If this goes live they might as well just roll out template characters with all of the goody bags, 3600 cp, and all gear sets unlocked and 1 billion gold, and all quests marked complete.

That's called the PTS.

I know, which is why i said it the way i did. They might as well make PTS the live servers complete with full template characters.

renne

Mephit wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

"I want all toons to be the same..." and there you have it. They only want to do things once. This attitude has cost us replayability and 8 years of character history.

Please don't put words in my mouth. No, I don't want to "do things once". If that was the case I wouldn't have 11 different toons that I want the have the same chance of being my main. I have different toons for different things, but I don't want to be penalised with achievements on my main just because there's no place, for example, in trials for a DPS magplar because the class doesn't have the right skills or buffs or any buffs really as a DPS that are good for synergising an endgame group. And if ZOS makes class changes that makes magplar DPS viable, then I simultaneously don't want to lose out on all the stuff I've done on my magDK because that class DOES have really good group synergy especially in buff sets.

"This attitude has cost us replayability". You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

Because, I mean, apart from the [snip] way Sony does game upgrades and there being two trophy lists for ESO now on PS4 and PS5 (until Update 33 where ZOS is finally making the trophies we've already earned on PS4 pop for the PS5 version and thus also giving us playstation users accountwide trophies again) - for most games, you earn a trophy or achievement once, no matter how many times you replay it. You have it and it's done. You don't have achievements and trophies for every single character.

edited for bait

renne

SilverBride wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

...I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

You won't be alone, but they will never tell us if this is the reason.

I keep wavering between anger and sadness. These past 2 years have been incredibly stressful, then the pandemic on top of it. ESO is my safe place where I can come and be someone else for a little while. Where I can set goals for myself that nothing can stop me from achieving. Where I can explore the vast beautiful world on each character in their own way and at their own pace.

I'm not an end game player. I'm just a regular citizen of Tamriel who doesn't look at exploring and completing quests and achievements as a burden, but rather as a blessing. Because this is what brings me a few hours of happiness and relaxation every day.

Please don't take this away from us.

You know you can still explore and complete quests without achievements right? Everyone keeps bleating on about how it's throwing away 8 years!! And replayability!!! but the game doen't actually stop once you've achieved something. Yes, some things are not working correctly on the PTS at the moment [snip]

edited for baiting

Indigogo

renne wrote: »

Mephit wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

"I want all toons to be the same..." and there you have it. They only want to do things once. This attitude has cost us replayability and 8 years of character history.

"This attitude has cost us replayability". You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

How do you know you've successfully gotten a trifecta if you've earned it once on another toon?
What, we have to manually start setting stop watches?
The new norm is, "I think I did it? Oh well, close enough" *pats self on back*

It's weak. It's a shadow of its former self.

And yes, once I've gotten all the achievements I would stop playing a game....
Then create a new character and start all over again. Fresh. Nothing carried over.

Mephit

renne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

...I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

You won't be alone, but they will never tell us if this is the reason.

I keep wavering between anger and sadness. These past 2 years have been incredibly stressful, then the pandemic on top of it. ESO is my safe place where I can come and be someone else for a little while. Where I can set goals for myself that nothing can stop me from achieving. Where I can explore the vast beautiful world on each character in their own way and at their own pace.

I'm not an end game player. I'm just a regular citizen of Tamriel who doesn't look at exploring and completing quests and achievements as a burden, but rather as a blessing. Because this is what brings me a few hours of happiness and relaxation every day.

Please don't take this away from us.

You know you can still explore and complete quests without achievements right? Everyone keeps bleating on about how it's throwing away 8 years!! And replayability!!! but the game doen't actually stop once you've achieved something. Yes, some things are not working correctly on the PTS at the moment, but acting like accountwide achievements are magically going to make it so you cant quest or explore anymore is just being melodramatic.

From a previous post of mine... does this help explain?

This is 33...

And my alts just run past stuff like M'aiq, Havocrels, oblivion portals, fishing nodes, random museum / library etc. pieces, and all that cos.... what's the point. I don't even take them to striking locales.. sigh

No more Peacemaker, I Like M'aiq, Crime Pays, Give to the poor, light bringer just to name a few

Original achievements that I still (used to) enjoy, as crazy as I may be.

No more perfect heists, a cutpurse above, flawless sacraments, murder sprees,

Sure, make some achievements account wide, on a case by case basis (trophies maybe), but leave the rest alone

Alts are just different skill bots now. Is that what they / you wanted?

Never known a game fall so far and for no reason

SerafinaWaterstar

renne wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

...I'm going to be furious, because my characters progress matters a whole lot more to me than a card for a card game I never wanted to begin with. But I'll reserve my anger for when I know the truth.

You won't be alone, but they will never tell us if this is the reason.

I keep wavering between anger and sadness. These past 2 years have been incredibly stressful, then the pandemic on top of it. ESO is my safe place where I can come and be someone else for a little while. Where I can set goals for myself that nothing can stop me from achieving. Where I can explore the vast beautiful world on each character in their own way and at their own pace.

I'm not an end game player. I'm just a regular citizen of Tamriel who doesn't look at exploring and completing quests and achievements as a burden, but rather as a blessing. Because this is what brings me a few hours of happiness and relaxation every day.

Please don't take this away from us.

You know you can still explore and complete quests without achievements right? Everyone keeps bleating on about how it's throwing away 8 years!! And replayability!!! but the game doen't actually stop once you've achieved something. Yes, some things are not working correctly on the PTS at the moment, but acting like accountwide achievements are magically going to make it so you cant quest or explore anymore is just being melodramatic.

It’s not ‘being melodramatic’.

It’s people voicing very understandable concerns based on the implementation of AWA on the pts.

The likelihood of this being fixed properly before the Update drops is slim, going on past behaviour.

And you are missing a fundamental point. Achievements in this game are the only way in the game to monitor what different characters have or haven’t done - there is no other way. So it is not just about the achievements themselves (though it is nice to see another completed on a different character) it is that because achievements are so entwined in completing everything.

As it now is on the pts, AWA IS stopping players from playing, as if they have even one character that has got that achievement, all now have it, and it is impossible to see what has not yet been done.

For example, my main has done pretty much everything in the game apart from some vet trifectas & pvp upper ranks. All quests, all guildlines, all zones. Everything completed.

With this AWA system, this will now copy over to ALL my other 17 characters - ruining gameplay as unless I monitor from outside the game as to what they have or have not done, the game won’t tell me. Fantastic. Spreadsheets ahoy.😭😠

And as for saying should not have to have achievements to play - that works both ways, does it not? Why does it matter to get AWA, why not just play the game?

RaddlemanNumber7

I have loaded into all my 18 EU toons on the PTS now. I can see the extent this change will have on my account.

I have been using achievements as my characters' "to do" list. Apart from a few grindy things, it seems I have now done it all. There is no "to do" list anymore.

Since I'm already cp1950 there is now virtually no character development left for me to do. Events are now of little value as there is nothing for individual characters to chase. Likewise with crafting, all my projects to get achievements on individual characters are now cancelled and, as I have a very full crafting bag and masses of gold kit, there is no need to carry on with any that.

What I'm left with to do is partially filled in zone maps (even for my newest, least-played character). My characters have story quests, public dungeons, map pins, blue books and skyshards left to do. That's it.

I have to entirely rethink the way I play the game, which now seems very, very much smaller than it was.

So far the only thing I've decided is that I will give ZOS no more money. They have totally lost my trust.

SerafinaWaterstar

What I am concerned about is the incredible lack of communication about AWA and the huge changes it will bring - not just on the forum or other social media platforms, but in the game itself.

For there are many many people who play who do not look at social media, and will blithely download the update without understanding what it is changing.

It would be very considerate & respectful if this upcoming change & its implications could be shared as widely as possible, including in game, so players might be able at least to try and record their different characters progress outside of the game.


(But this may not be enough, if it goes lives with everything completed being unreplayable, but at the very least it would be good to inform players of the FULL extent of the change.)

tim77

peacenote

renne wrote: »

Mephit wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

"I want all toons to be the same..." and there you have it. They only want to do things once. This attitude has cost us replayability and 8 years of character history.

Please don't put words in my mouth. No, I don't want to "do things once". If that was the case I wouldn't have 11 different toons that I want the have the same chance of being my main. I have different toons for different things, but I don't want to be penalised with achievements on my main just because there's no place, for example, in trials for a DPS magplar because the class doesn't have the right skills or buffs or any buffs really as a DPS that are good for synergising an endgame group. And if ZOS makes class changes that makes magplar DPS viable, then I simultaneously don't want to lose out on all the stuff I've done on my magDK because that class DOES have really good group synergy especially in buff sets.

"This attitude has cost us replayability". You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

Since it clearly bothers you when achievements are missing on one of your characters when you feel like you've done them already.... to play devil's advocate... you do realize that the fact that a new character doesn't show a completed achievement doesn't take away the fact that you have it completed on another character, right? If achievements don't matter and we should all not care about them to re-play content, why does it matter if you have some on one character and some on another? YOU know you did it, you can take a screenshot and make it your background and post it all over the internet that you did it... why does it matter on which character the achievement is logged? [snip]

Of course my real point is, everyone who cares about the outcome of this has a feeling about achievements and uses them (or is in a group/guild that uses them) in some way to shape how they approach playing ESO. One view is no less valid than the others, because there was no rule book released to say "you must pursue and view achievements in this fashion." I absolutely can see the reasons for all of the different views, and they are all valid concerns and ways to play the game. It's flawed logic to say "I really want x to happen" while at the same time saying "you're too dramatic if you are against x." All groups in this thread care about x. I personally don't want my progress per character and dates that I have completed things wiped away, because they are tied to very fond memories I have in game, and pursuing achievements a second, third, or fourth time on an alt is one of the key ways I find enjoyment in this game... but I also end game raid as a healer and recently switched from templar (my main) to warden for the sake of our group composition. My templar may never get some of the achievements that my alt now will get. Therefore I UNDERSTAND your stance and am actively trying to advocate for ways that the way you and your friends use achievements can be accommodated. Can you truly not understand and emphathize with some of these other views? Especially given that you obviously have a strong opinion and therefore are not in the camp of "this doesn't matter?"

The difference with your scenario is that it really is more of a culture issue... when I switched to warden, my raid lead didn't make me go do all the Crag trials on her first. He knew I was able to do the content on a healer and that was good enough. And if I wasn't, it would have been blantantly obvious immediately and we would have had a conversation. If there are guilds out there who know you and know you are a good player and know you have completed the content in some way, that should be sufficient. If not, the problem can be solved by finding another raid guild/group. Likewise, if it is a personal preference to have everything done on all characters, one could CHOOSE to be satisified with knowing an achievement is completed somewhere on the account, and not worry that it is missing on another character. I CHOOSE to be ok with the fact that I will never be a PVP emperor or get the rewards that come with it. I don't insist that ZOS remove the achievement or put the rewards on something easier to achieve!

With folks who don't want to lose data, there IS no way to solve the problem after this update. It will be a destructive, game-changing loss. There is no alternative, we can't go play with like-minded players and live and let live... the play style will be eradicated from ESO permanently. And for some, this play style is the reason they are in ESO over other games. While I am sympathetic to all views, it does bother me when people who have other in-game priorities and wishes can't even SEE how destructive this will be, in some circumstances, to some play styles different than your own.

edited for bait

Elsonso

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

For there are many many people who play who do not look at social media, and will blithely download the update without understanding what it is changing.

Perspective.

Once, when commenting about adding character slots, ZOS made a comment that a lot of players have only one character. My recollection from that statement, at the time, was that this was a huge portion of the player population, the largest portion. The next largest would be the ones with two. Somewhere in there, I have to think we crossed the "majority of players" line.

If a player has only one character, they already have AwA and this will be no change. If they have two, this is a change, but is likely not going to be that bad.

By the time that the circle of friends gets down to the people who have multiple accounts and a couple dozen characters, it is pretty small. This is going to represent the hardest hit, but also the smallest population.

Just the fact that ZOS is using this thread to make a Q&A, and is not really addressing any of these issues directly, tells me more than I need to know about how large of a circle of players I am part of. That a lot of us in here are part of. Not very big. (Edit: and, I might add, I don't feel it is very important to ZOS, either)

So, I don't think your concerns are overwhelming. For those that do notice, there will be a Q&A built from our expressed concerns and questions to ease their transition.

This, of course, ignores the fact that they are gutting a core part of the game that has been there for 8 years. This isn't some abandoned feature people were clinging to, either. ZOS actively built upon this for 8 years. Fortunately, the number of people they annoy will be small, not very influential, and lacking any platform to stand on. Threat level: Zero.

ArchangelIsraphel

Please don't put words in my mouth. No, I don't want to "do things once". If that was the case I wouldn't have 11 different toons that I want the have the same chance of being my main. I have different toons for different things, but I don't want to be penalised with achievements on my main just because there's no place, for example, in trials for a DPS magplar because the class doesn't have the right skills or buffs or any buffs really as a DPS that are good for synergising an endgame group. And if ZOS makes class changes that makes magplar DPS viable, then I simultaneously don't want to lose out on all the stuff I've done on my magDK because that class DOES have really good group synergy especially in buff sets.

These are all valid concerns that many of us are hoping can be addressed, so that players like you, and players who would like detailed character tracking, can each have a way of recording progress that suits their needs. Many posts in this thread neiter want to loose individual character data, nor do they want to take away a form of AWA. But AWA in its current form has been poorly implemented, and is disrupting playstyles that are different than yours whether you feel that players should want individual achievements or not.

I respect your needs and would hope that ZOS takes the time to develop a system that works for us both, where players like you can have the AWA they want, while players like us can have some form of detailed character journal that allows independent tracking of exploration, story progress, and more.

"This attitude has cost us replayability". You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

Many people have said this in response to the concerns people have regarding the desire to retain character data. This need derives from much deeper and more complex reasons than you have reduced them to in this comment. For many of us, it isn't about wanting some kind of reward at the end of a quest. Because the achievement system is not implemented in the same way it is in other games, many have come to use it as a method of tracking character progress, it is a tool to them that has no replacement in the current implementation of AWA. As others before me have said, many games that have AWA also provide a system in game which tracks individual character progress each time you make a new character- like the single player TESO games, for example. Thus players were doing what they would normally do in a TESO game. Now, they no longer can, as AWA reduces individual character tracking to something that is worse than bare-bones.

People have also been using the absence or presence of achievements as a form of character building, and for many other reasons. There are also those that consider the achievements a trophy and enjoy the thrill they get from attaining them using multiple different classes- I can hardly list all of the different types of players here whose play styles utilize the achievements menu as a tool.

If you haven't already, I would suggest going back through the thread and reading the many articulate posts explaining these play styles, because yes, these play styles are compromised by the absence of a system that has been in place for many years, and saying "Having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying the game." minimizes these concerns.

In contrast to that, one could easily say "NOT having achievements doesn't stop you from playing the game, play on an alt anyway even if you wont have your mains achievements or any of your progress." This type of mentality can go both ways, and it isn't helpful to anyone here. But many of us are fully aware that the issues you are concerned about are more complex than that, that you need a form of AWA in order to complete your playstyle, and that you feel limited when starting a new character without them. Your play style is also dependent on the presence of achievements- just in a different way from ours. What you're feeling now, is also what we feel. You long for a certain playstyle, so do we.

That is, again, why I hope we can both have what we want, in one way or another. We aren't trying to take anything away from you. We're just trying to preserve what we have so we can play our way and you can play yours.

Because, I mean, apart from [snip- because I know this will get edited later]the way Sony does game upgrades and there being two trophy lists for ESO now on PS4 and PS5 (until Update 33 where ZOS is finally making the trophies we've already earned on PS4 pop for the PS5 version and thus also giving us playstation users accountwide trophies again) - for most games, you earn a trophy or achievement once, no matter how many times you replay it. You have it and it's done. You don't have achievements and trophies for every single character.

Silvereyes had an excellent post several pages back that was an excellent reply to why the implementation of achievements in ESO and the implementation of achievements in other games is not the same, and from my point of view, can no longer be handled the same way after so many years. I'll quote them:

Yes, this is the crux of the issue. The way ESO has handled achievements in the past isn't some meta game. Achievements have been used as a way to unlock titles, dyes, skill points, the ability to purchase furniture and houses, to earn Undaunted reputation and XP. Achievements have been used to track quest objective and zone completion states, and change the way NPCs react to a player. They are very much not being used as achievements in the Wikipedia sense of the word, like a badge. They are inextricably linked with in-game objectives.

ZOS has tried to change the purpose of achievements without putting in the work to disentangle them from in-game objectives first.

Achievements are so intimately tied into character individuality and the way people play the game now that suddenly making them account wide is indeed compromising playstyles, because the implementation of them was never the same as other games to begin with- thus, excited that ESO was not like other games (A good thing, in the opinion of many here) they used their system as a tool to enhance their experience, and considered the completion of certain types of achievements- especially those geard towards exploration- as further content beyond questing. The absence of this ability to re-do the achievements does remove content from players who want to play this way, because they no longer have a convenient means of tracking progress.

You may not consider it content- but others do, and we are hoping for an in game way to track this so we can replay it even if the badge for the completion becomes account wide. (We are also hoping for a way to show characters did NOT complete certain things as well.)

AlnilamE

Zezin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

This is what I found myself thinking of over the weekend. People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win. The players that want those achievements/titles on an alt (or even on their main if it was an alt that happened to get them) can get them, ZOS earn some additional revenue from it, and the players who want to earn those achievements/titles by running alts through the game can do so exactly the same as now.

The reason why people buy skyshards is not because of the achievements it's because of the skill points associated with them, they're buying skill points.

Absolutely. But the way ZOS solved the split between people who wanted to do skyshards once per account and be done, and the people (like myself) who like hunting skyshards on alts as they explore the world, was put them in the Crown store for those who wanted it, at a very reasonable price point. That made most people happy.

ArchangelIsraphel

Once, when commenting about adding character slots, ZOS made a comment that a lot of players have only one character. My recollection from that statement, at the time, was that this was a huge portion of the player population, the largest portion. The next largest would be the ones with two. Somewhere in there, I have to think we crossed the "majority of players" line.

If I were ZOS, I wouldn't put much stock into that data or base anything on it, unless I was analyzing every account for playtime and character level. I'm sure there are plenty of accounts with only one character...because ZOS runs so many free weekends and inexpensive sales on the game that thousands of accounts would be created that have only one character on them due to people trying the game and leaving it because they didn't like it or got bored.

Tandor

Elsonso wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

For there are many many people who play who do not look at social media, and will blithely download the update without understanding what it is changing.

Perspective.

Once, when commenting about adding character slots, ZOS made a comment that a lot of players have only one character. My recollection from that statement, at the time, was that this was a huge portion of the player population, the largest portion. The next largest would be the ones with two. Somewhere in there, I have to think we crossed the "majority of players" line.

If a player has only one character, they already have AwA and this will be no change. If they have two, this is a change, but is likely not going to be that bad.

By the time that the circle of friends gets down to the people who have multiple accounts and a couple dozen characters, it is pretty small. This is going to represent the hardest hit, but also the smallest population.

Just the fact that ZOS is using this thread to make a Q&A, and is not really addressing any of these issues directly, tells me more than I need to know about how large of a circle of players I am part of. That a lot of us in here are part of. Not very big. (Edit: and, I might add, I don't feel it is very important to ZOS, either)

So, I don't think your concerns are overwhelming. For those that do notice, there will be a Q&A built from our expressed concerns and questions to ease their transition.

This, of course, ignores the fact that they are gutting a core part of the game that has been there for 8 years. This isn't some abandoned feature people were clinging to, either. ZOS actively built upon this for 8 years. Fortunately, the number of people they annoy will be small, not very influential, and lacking any platform to stand on. Threat level: Zero.

You're right in your call for perspective, and as I recall you're also right in your breakdown of the different playstyles including the fact that a huge portion of the player population, the largest portion, have only one character and therefore stand to lose nothing if this change goes through as at present on PTS.

What is also true, of course, is that those players who make up the largest portion of the population will similarly gain nothing if this change goes through as at present on the PTS.

So this change is only of relevance to different smaller portions of the population, some of whom gain by it and some of whom lose by it. If the players making up the largest portion of the population are unaffected by it, and the players making up the other, smaller, portions of the population are in some cases gaining from it and in other cases losing from it, then it makes it all the more important for ZOS to explain exactly why they are making the change and what proportion of the players they think will actually gain from it as against those who will lose from it and those for whom it will be of no relevance whatsoever.

Given the deafening silence from ZOS on this, I can only assume that it is really being done for their benefit, either for performance improvement, as an essential part of their server architecture and game code rewrite, or as an essential means of facilitating the new card game. It's difficult to come up with any other motivation based on player consideration given that even the small portion of the population that wants to gain from account-wide achievements is split on whether this is the right way to implement it. Moreover, if the change was being made out of consideration for the players' wishes, then surely they would have recognised its controversial nature by now and be willing to engage constructively with the players.

Mephit

Two weeks and still zero communication on this from ZOS.

1. Either they have no idea the impact this change will have (very worrying), or they don't care (very worrying)

2. I see no evidence that they read these forums, other than "filtering out anger" which is mostly due to (1)

With something like this, you have to communicate!

Shame on ZOS

silvereyes

Tandor wrote: »

Given the deafening silence from ZOS on this, I can only assume that it is really being done for their benefit, either for performance improvement, as an essential part of their server architecture and game code rewrite, or as an essential means of facilitating the new card game. It's difficult to come up with any other motivation based on player consideration given that even the small portion of the population that wants to gain from account-wide achievements is split on whether this is the right way to implement it.

Is it really all that difficult to imagine? This has all the hallmarks of incomplete requirements gathering to me. It happens on countless software projects all the time. The requirements get gathered, the feature is implemented, it's signed off on by the project managers ... and only at the end do they give it to the users to get feedback. Only to discover that when the requirements were gathered, they understood "feature x" to mean something totally different than their users did. Just over the course of a few weeks, we've seen a good six or seven different perspectives of what ESO players want, and that's just amongst the small portion of players that participate in the forums.

As for their silence ... silence is ZOS' MO, no matter how many times they promise to do better. So is going forward with changes that have poor reception on PTS. PTS is usually about bug fixes, balancing, and minor tweaks based on feedback. I've never seen them completely scrap or delay a new headline feature during PTS, sorc shield cast times notwithstanding.

The difference this time is that there is at least the appearance of a destructive, irreversible change. This isn't just some buff that can be nerfed later, or an incomplete system that is at least better than having no system at all. Players can't just say, "taking a break, see you in a few patches after you learn how bad an idea this was and fix it." For many players, this is the point of no return. These are somewhat uncharted waters for the development team, so it's understandable if they are caught a little flat-footed.

I'm keenly interested in how they handle it, as it will probably decide whether I stick around or not.

peacenote

I want to mention something that primarily is for ZOS's benefit, regarding perspective.

Something that generates a lot of controversy in an MMO is the releasing of names. What's typically is offered in MMOs, at least at first, is the retention of characters and character names, so if you leave and come back, you don't lose your progress, as games built on never-ending character progress/growth would keep a lot of players from ever revisiting a game.

Once, many years ago, in another MMO, I created a character and found myself the target of many many whispers and borderline harassment because I had chosen the name of someone who had been banned, or had their account deleted in some way, and the original owner of the name wanted it back. He got all of his friends and guild mates to reach out to me. Sometimes they gave me a hard time and sometimes they offered me a lot of gold to give up the name. I chose to find it humorous, and actually became friends with one of the friends, but I didn't give up the name, for two reasons. One, because the initial reactions were aggressive which made me less inclined to be accommodating, and two, because I had put a lot of thought into how my character would look and be based on the name, and there really wasn't a good reason why I should have to find a different way to represent the name (spacing, another character, etc.) over the other person.

Anyway... my point is there was a lot of drama over A NAME. A name is just one piece of our character's identity. In ESO, achievements are tied to so many more parts of a character's identity. The community seems to be generally understanding of why players are attached to their names so just think how much more people will feel the loss of years and years of individual points of progress, dates, and so on. I agree that if character progress and individuality could be de-coupled from achievements this game would be in a much better place, but they aren't, and the amount of character identity points people stand to lose is staggering. Not everyone cares, but for those that do... just think about the outcry when someone loses a name, and multiply that by, like, a thousand. There may not be a mass exodus. It will be a slow trickle as people will be emotionally less invested in the game with this removal of history. I think it's a large oversight in understanding of what drives a portion of players to stick with a specific game.

SilverBride

renne wrote: »

You know you can still explore and complete quests without achievements right? Everyone keeps bleating on about how it's throwing away 8 years!! And replayability!!! but the game doen't actually stop once you've achieved something.

Others can play without having everything autocomplete for them, too.

AWA robs us of a new experience on each character and makes it very difficult to track which individual character has done what.

[Edited for clarity]

Marcusorion1

Questions from players not on the PTS:

Safe to assume that Jesters Festival Holiday Achievements are completed across all characters, regardless of actual gameplay on individual toons?

Safe to assume that Stable levelling for some reason ( cough, crownstore ) is *not* account wide?

Is it possible for those quests/achievements that reward a furnishing item ( precursor, music box, et al ) to be classified as "collectible" so that a single item may be accessed multiple times as some already are? or if necessary to permit multiple placings in the same location, create a new category of collectibles ? ( thinking here of places that have multiple precursors placed in the same house/guild hall )

This proposed change is certainly congruent with the High Isle trailer...seems to be a ship lost in a storm with neither rudder nor captain...

If it is a necessary change due to the upcoming card game progression or due to some data storage issues then the idea seems to have gotten way ahead of the implementation ramifications. The lack of foresight, explanation and delays in any meaningful responses from Zos is troubling to many players.

SilverBride

renne wrote: »

You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

No because most players then roll an alt to play though it again with a different class or build. Players generally like to have a range of characters to play with and very few who play MMOs only have one.

But these new characters don't get to start with a clean slate and enjoy the game the same way. They lose the sense of satisfaction from having completed these things for themselves.

Araneae6537

etchedpixels wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

That doesn’t take much. The impending AwA disaster in ESO has made my eye start to wander and I did look into Lost Ark… until I found that gender and even body style are tied to class — wtf! Doesn’t ZOS understand that that’s one of the reasons many of us have made ESO our home? The ability to create characters the way we want and then play them the way we want is essential. 🥺

(Edited for clarity.)

That's something LA inherited from being a Korean culture RPG (and no I don't think that is an excuse either for the RPG or cultural issues). It is getting fixed at least and they accept it's a problem.

ESO still has male/female tied versions of outfits but it's a whole world ahead in general.

Yeah, that’s what I’ve been discovering. BDO was touted as #1 in character customization and maybe it is possible to edit every physical parameter (better than LA offers) but the costumes are still 99% lingerie and heels for females and piles of robes and armor for males. I have zero problem with those outfits being available but the lack of choice disgusts me. ESO seems to be one of the only games where women are allowed a purpose other than being eye candy.

This relates to the topic at hand because these are all elements of defining my characters which is so essential to me. The only way of tracking what particular characters have done in ESO is achievements. Even zone completion is unfortunately tied to achievements. I love when the game responds to quests I’ve completed and choices I’ve made and would have loved to see more of that. But I absolutely don’t want things my characters have never done to be tied to them (I don’t mean titles as those are something I can choose) and the world to treat them as different faces of a single entity.

old_scopie1945

SilverBride wrote: »

renne wrote: »

You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

No because most players then roll an alt to play though it again with a different class or build. Players generally like to have a range of characters to play with and very few who play MMOs only have one.

But these new characters don't get to start with a clean slate and enjoy the game the same way. They lose the sense of satisfaction from having completed these things for themselves.

I think there is going to be a lot more players with just one character after AWA is implemented. Most of them won't be happy about it methinks. Count me as one of them.

ZOS_Ragnar

Hello Folks,

We have removed a few posts from this thread that were determined to not be on topic. Please do your best to ensure that your comments are focused on providing feedback for account-wide achievements. While we understand that in the course of the discussion the conversation can evolve, and tangential comments are usually fine but when they start to drift too far off-topic we feel it is necessary to remove them so that the main subject does not get overshadowed.

As always we encourage you all to take time to review our community rules.

Thank you for your understanding.

Gaebriel0410

Instead of some nefarious scheme to conserve server space or make people buy crowns (?), I'm pretty sure it's probably just ESO progressing into the modern MMO age where basically every game has had accountwide achievements for about 10 years or so. Change can be good, and having accountwide achievements pretty much solves the class change issue where people feel compelled to stay on their main character with all achievements tied to them, even after discovering they like another class better.

I was actually surprised they didn't have accountwide achievements from the start, but I always assumed that wasn't really a style choice but more like, a consequence of it being the first MMO they made and thus not getting it perfect right off the bat.

silvereyes

Marcusorion1 wrote: »

Questions from players not on the PTS:

Safe to assume that Jesters Festival Holiday Achievements are completed across all characters, regardless of actual gameplay on individual toons?

Not sure if you are asking here on those players' behalf or not, but yes, festival achievements are account-wide on PTS. If one character gets it, they all do.

Marcusorion1 wrote: »

Safe to assume that Stable levelling for some reason ( cough, crownstore ) is *not* account wide?

Yes. Only achievements, titles, and anything dependent upon them (e.g. world boss, dolmen and delve completion) are account wide on PTS right now. Everything else on the character screen and skills screen are still per-character, including mount training, skill lines, Alliance War rank, skill points / skyshards. In addition, motif knowledge and lorebook knowledge are also excluded from going account-wide.

Marcusorion1 wrote: »

Is it possible for those quests/achievements that reward a furnishing item ( precursor, music box, et al ) to be classified as "collectible" so that a single item may be accessed multiple times as some already are?

Only a single instance of each collectible is able to be placed in each house. Yes, a single collectible can be used in multiple houses, but not multiple per house. Given the limited range of music boxes' audio, and given how the Precursor dummies are used for group mob testing, changing them to be collectibles would be a downgrade from how they work on live today.

Saieden

secondrowforward wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

renne wrote: »

You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

No because most players then roll an alt to play though it again with a different class or build. Players generally like to have a range of characters to play with and very few who play MMOs only have one.

But these new characters don't get to start with a clean slate and enjoy the game the same way. They lose the sense of satisfaction from having completed these things for themselves.

I think there is going to be a lot more players with just one character after AWA is implemented. Most of them won't me happy about it methinks. Count me as one of them.

And after that, it's not a long stretch from 1 to 0.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that the last official response said they are taking this feedback to the "Account Wide Achievement Team", and hit me: not a single person on that team stood up and shouted loud enough to stop this reaching PTS. While we can't rule out that they didn't think it might be, shall we say, problematic, one can almost guarantee that not one of them are personally invested enough to truly question if this was a good idea or not, or at the very least, have the means (NDAs and the like considered) to consult someone who is.

SerafinaWaterstar

Saieden wrote: »

secondrowforward wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

renne wrote: »

You know having achievements doesn't stop you from replaying a game, right? Do you stop playing all other video games once you've gotten all their achievements?

No because most players then roll an alt to play though it again with a different class or build. Players generally like to have a range of characters to play with and very few who play MMOs only have one.

But these new characters don't get to start with a clean slate and enjoy the game the same way. They lose the sense of satisfaction from having completed these things for themselves.

I think there is going to be a lot more players with just one character after AWA is implemented. Most of them won't me happy about it methinks. Count me as one of them.

And after that, it's not a long stretch from 1 to 0.

Another thing that just occurred to me is that the last official response said they are taking this feedback to the "Account Wide Achievement Team", and hit me: not a single person on that team stood up and shouted loud enough to stop this reaching PTS. While we can't rule out that they didn't think it might be, shall we say, problematic, one can almost guarantee that not one of them are personally invested enough to truly question if this was a good idea or not, or at the very least, have the means (NDAs and the like considered) to consult someone who is.

It’s like they have no idea about their game and how people play it. Or they don’t care.

It’s just incomprehensible that it can be so badly thought out & implemented.

I mean, I know little about software, but I do know about risk analysis, and I would have raised some huge risks & their potential fall-out about this.

silvereyes

Saieden wrote: »

While we can't rule out that they didn't think it might be, shall we say, problematic, one can almost guarantee that not one of them are personally invested enough to truly question if this was a good idea or not, or at the very least, have the means (NDAs and the like considered) to consult someone who is.

Such questions usually get asked of the project manager and whoever is identified as the stakeholders on the project. It's up to those people to ask the correct users for what the requirements are.

It's not really a developer's place to tell the client what they should want. Developers that aren't willing to make the software their users tell them to make usually don't last long.

The problem isn't the developers. It's the stakeholders / project managers not asking the right questions of a broad enough spectrum of people early enough in the process to be able to make adjustments. As we've seen here, "Account-wide Achievements" can mean many things to many people, and the devil really is in the details.

This also speaks to a broader issue with long, waterfall-style projects that only bring in substantial user feedback at the end. Most of the software industry (and other industries as well) has moved away from this style of project management, for the very reasons we are seeing exhibited right now.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Does anyone remember the "Roundtable of Nirn", (I think that was the name), from the first couple years after launch?
It was a group of diverse GM's that once a month would get together with devs and managers to discuss aspects of game, ideas, and proposed changes etc. I had a few friends who were part of it then.
Too bad there was not a communication system still around like this that MAYBE AwA could have been discussed / planned a little better.
I also had a thought today be-boping around crafting area at guild hall.
ARMORY TABLES~ They were, imo, awesome addition. Switch toons on the fly! No need for lots of alts! Wait, huh?
Was AwA being planned then and we are just being slowly steered away from playing alts? Hmmmm.
Just a thought.
I have been playing some of my "New Special" characters that have full back story and personality that I have been saving, but figure I better play them now before UP33.
Huzzah!