PTS Update 33 - Feedback Thread for Account Wide Achievements

SilverBride

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

I'm sorry, but in many polls, most people are waiting and hoping for AwA. Please do not bring up the topic of majority and minority. Firstly, the opinion of all players is important. Secondly, no one has any exact statistics.

Please link to these many polls. I've only seen one so far that didn't go on for very long. Although polls on forums aren't really representative of a true minority or majority anyway.

Saieden

silvereyes wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

it seems like it's either going to go out in a way that upsets and diminishes the gameplay of some people or not going out at all.

To be honest, I would be floored if it doesn't go out at all in U33. I know people will disagree with me, but in my two decades of working on software projects, I've never seen such a major feature be removed in its entirety this late in the development cycle. There's barely enough time before release to fix the normal bugs that pop up with any new release, let alone start on a major shift in direction, like reverting large parts of code that could lead to other dependent code changes breaking.

The most likely thing I see happening is that a number of achievements that were account-wide in PTS weeks 1 and 2 suddenly become character-specific after the EU character copy this week, in order to fix NPCs, quest objectives and hopefully, zone completion. This is the safest option to fix what the largest number of players view as bugs that doesn't involve changing already-tested code.

In my 8 years of full stack development, I see it a bit differently. This has all the hallmarks of a hack-job, essentially making each character read from a single struct that is merged on log in of each character while recoding "certain things" to still function like it does currently, presumably with a partial copy of the struct specific to each character. It's very clear also that regression testing was sloppy and only targeted the "certain things" for proper QA, as evidenced by the numerous examples of where the rewards of basic interactions with achievements are simply removed (museums, map pins, delve/dolmen xp, etc).

When you re-do a system, any solution that fundamentally requires parts of the original core design to handled as exceptions, is always bound to fail in some way, the best case scenario being a code-maintenance and bug-finding nightmare, and the only right and sensible answer is to roll back before it's too late. If that is impossible, then someone needs to be held to some serious levels accountability.

All they needed to do (in the design) instead was have to have a unified copy of the achievements with a screen to display it. They literally would not have had to touch a single line of existing functional code, except to trigger an update when a character earns an achievement, and they would've saved themselves a lot of bad PR.

_Zathras_

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS is quite the reliable source in this respect, and everything they are doing suggests that AwA is not only the majority, but the overwhelming majority, of players.

The only thing they have to go by is data point metrics, and the focus groups of end game players they use to test their cutting edge content, which is only designed for the 1% of players who run that content.

They can't possibly know that a "overwhelming majority" of players want something. If that were true, then let's extend your premise to the card game that is coming out with High Isle. See?

So, whatever their rationale is, they are pushing something out because they want to do it, not because they have somehow telepathically tapped into the minds of millions of customers to know their wants and needs.

I think it's wiser to tread lightly on speaking for ZOS omniscience, and to listen to the voices of people who are taking their time to communicate in this feedback thread.

heaven13

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

There's no thread that showcases the divide in the community as best as this one, which is sad considering the way things are going for some of the communities in the game. That being said I have a couple of points of my own to make:

1. Achievements in games are almost always tracked in an account wide manner, this is the case in all TES games before the launch of ESO and I believe it will also be the case for future TES games, it is also something that most people are accostumed to as it is generally more convenient to see your overall progress in a game.
2. Regarding replayability, I don't think this will affect the game much, I'm nearing 5k hours in the game and still have much content I need to do and things to explore, ESO is a massive game and replayability is not much of a problem, people in general do not run out of things to do in game and when they do... Well let's just say I've completed the same group content with the same character dozens of times, and this is the case for most people, sometimes you do content not because of an achievement but because it is fun to do so.
3. Playing alts is something I've started doing ever since the announcement, I feel much more comfortable chasing an achievement knowing I can do it an the character best suited to the task something I never used to do before, focusing instead on getting everything I could on a single character.
4. Rewards for endgame content are a problem in ESO, we simply lack those and for a long time the titles served as a recompense for doing content a second time, this is a problem with the game itself and should not be a reason to not want account wide achievements, instead we should be asking for more rewards for completing this content.
5. As for those wanting to track the accomplishments of individual characters I ask you this; has it done the associated quests? Is being master angler something you did so only that single character can see it?

Lots of people seem to be dissatisfied with the account wide achievements, but overall this is a massive QoL feature that will benefit not only the great majority of people playing the game but will also remove a barrier some people have in playing different characters.

1) Previous TES games have been single player rpgs. Having account wide achievements for a SINGLE player with one character makes sense.
ESO is an MMO with the possibility of having multiple characters; it’s not the same.

2) Achievements in this game are entwined with monitoring progress - there is no other way to do it. And if you have read through this thread, you would see that this implementation DOES affect replayability of quests.

That is the crucial point - there is no other way to monitor progress on alt characters in the game other than via the achievements.

How do I monitor what each of my different character has done when all achievements smashed together as they are on the pts? How do I see what dungeons they have cleared, what zones they have explored, what questlines they have done, when progress is only monitored by achievements?

3) I have been playing my alts less, because, what’s the point? They will get all the achievements as my main has already done them. So can’t even see what I have/haven’t done.

4) care not if titles account-wide

5) Yes. I did Master Angler on my main, not on any other character. If I want the title on another character, I’ll do the damn fishing.

It is not a ‘massive QoL feature’. For many, how this is on the pts will ruin their gameplay and remove the joy of playing.

1
nothing stopped anyone of making many characters in skyrim or other previous elderscroll game, nobody complaned as far as i know of not being able to track acheivement on each character

2
the few unrepeatable quest seems more like a bug to me, that and all the map being white
If that is solved, you can easily see wich quest remain to be done in each map as the one you have already done would be white
Personnally i never used the acheivemet to track quest on any of my 18 character so i personnaly know its feasable

3. Sure if you only play for unlocking the candy(acheivement), i can understand why you would feel like that

4.ok

5. Good for you, i guess

I just want to address the #1 here. People have already said it but maybe you missed it or it wasn’t clear. In Skyrim or other ES games or other single player games, there are quest journals and character statistics: how many enemies you killed, how long you’ve slept, how many hours you’ve played, etc. You can look through your journal and see where you are in quest progress and check the completed quests to see how you resolved things. You can look at the map and know where you haven’t gone. These are tracked per character, no matter how many times you restart the game. None of those are affected by platform achievements, as @Elsonso called them.

ESO has no way to track character progress EXCEPT through achievements. You can see your active quests but once it’s done, it’s gone and only by checking achievements will you know if you did it. Achievements are the only way to tell how many people you have (or haven’t) stole from, murdered, etc. Achievements are the only way to know if you’ve successfully done certain things because that’s how it was built from the beginning. There is no separate tracking tool.

If we got both accountwide achievements that work as platform based (by account only, no earned by in the tooltip) and left character tracking in place most of us who are devastated would be happy. Most of us would accept certain aggregate achievements being added there: kill 50 colossi in City of Ash counting all colossi killed no matter who did it in the accountwide section. Award all goodies at the accountwide level (dyes, skins, mounts, titles). Just leave the character one intact as well. If you only care about what you, the player, has achieved you never have to look in the character section, you’ll lose nothing. Neither will we. Quests will still be playable. Tracking will still be viable. A compromise is honestly the best solution all around.

Araneae6537

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

ArchangelIsraphel

The only thing they have to go by is data point metrics, and the focus groups of end game players they use to test their cutting edge content, which is only designed for the 1% of players who run that content.

Agreed! That, and data does not truly speak for how a person is actually engaging with the account or the content...it's just data with no voice of it's own. If ZOS were to take an inventory of my account, see that I haven't done certain things on my characters, and then go "They haven't completed every single quest on this character yet but they did on their oldest character...that must mean they never will and want account wide achievements to say they have finished it for them!!!" then that's a very poor assumption indeed.

Varana

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

1
nothing stopped anyone of making many characters in skyrim or other previous elderscroll game, nobody complaned as far as i know of not being able to track acheivement on each character

Because in those games, we didn't track achievements in the same way like in ESO, at all.

Single-player RPGs work fundamentally different from MMOs (even MMORPGs, like ESO claimed to be). In a single-player game, levelling by playing through story content is the game. There is no "endgame" like in MMOs. In many of them, you can't even continue playing after you've beaten the final encounter. They also let you access a "completed quests" tab, or have a decent character journal. Which means we have been able to track progress on each character - just not through achivements but by other means. ESO doesn't have those, so we've used the system that was provided by the developers to work as a substitute for them.

This comparison really makes no sense at all.

Zezin

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

Yes ESO needs even more pay to win obviously... People need to stop asking for more stuff on the crown store SMH.

Elsonso

.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

ZOS is quite the reliable source in this respect, and everything they are doing suggests that AwA is not only the majority, but the overwhelming majority, of players.

The only thing they have to go by is data point metrics, and the focus groups of end game players they use to test their cutting edge content, which is only designed for the 1% of players who run that content.

They can't possibly know that a "overwhelming majority" of players want something. If that were true, then let's extend your premise to the card game that is coming out with High Isle. See?

So, whatever their rationale is, they are pushing something out because they want to do it, not because they have somehow telepathically tapped into the minds of millions of customers to know their wants and needs.

My point is that what they know is way beyond what WE know and what we can tell from some poll posted on social media by someone who isn't a professional at polling. Their data points are more reliable predictors of their customers than our polls. Yes, they should listen to the players in feedback threads, and that is where they may have wiggle room to adjust what they are doing.

Yes, I do think that this is being pushed, and for reasons that we cannot see.

Someone above made the suggestion that this was a "hack", and I don't see it that way. I see this as a late-add to the Update 33 development that is still a work-in-progress, possibly with the design being tuned even during PTS. I see this as something that they (ZOS) need in Update 33, but was not part of the original Update 33 plan because they did not know they needed to do it. It just has that feel to it.

That this is also an often requested change to the game, and being pushed by friendly-to-ZOS streamers, is more fortuitous for them than anything else. It is a way to get what they want, and also give some players the same.

Edit:

_Zathras_ wrote: »

They can't possibly know that a "overwhelming majority" of players want something. If that were true, then let's extend your premise to the card game that is coming out with High Isle. See?

I forgot to address the card game. I see this as entirely different and has different motives and purpose than AwA.

silvereyes

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

The only thing they have to go by is data point metrics, and the focus groups of end game players they use to test their cutting edge content, which is only designed for the 1% of players who run that content.

Agreed! That, and data does not truly speak for how a person is actually engaging with the account or the content...it's just data with no voice of it's own. If ZOS were to take an inventory of my account, see that I haven't done certain things on my characters, and then go "They haven't completed every single quest on this character yet but they did on their oldest character...that must mean they never will and want account wide achievements to say they have finished it for them!!!" then that's a very poor assumption indeed.

I was wondering about that as well. If ZOS looks at all my alts, they will get a really skewed understanding, since I have so many writ mules. I still have about four or five characters I consider my mains, and a dozen more that I play whenever I feel like playing a different class, build, race or alliance. Those have a smattering of achievements, but I don't want their character progress wiped out or assimilated, just because the progress so far is small. And I don't care about the writ mules one whit from an achievements perspective, so they shouldn't really be included in the metrics.

All of which is to say, that I agree. Data, without context, can lead people astray.

Nemezijus

They did announce it on the livestream as an upcoming feature. I don't think they will back out of this change by now, but soon the patch notes will clarify it for good.
I don't recall them backing out from any features that they announced on the livestream, with the dual mount being an exception, but if I remember correctly they did mention that it will be only testing phase.

KMarble

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

I don't want AWA to be implemented the way it was presented to us so far, but what you're proposing isn't fair to anyone - especially the folks in this thread who are in favor of the change.

I personally don't care nor want all of my characters to share achievements (one of the reasons I have more than one character is so I can go through ALL of the game again). The best solution - the RIGHT solution - is to have the people who want and/or care about titles and achievements be able to have that in a way that doesn't prevent those of us who want to replay content from being able to do so.

Putting that in the crown store is absolutely NOT the solution.

Araneae6537

Zezin wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

Yes ESO needs even more pay to win obviously... People need to stop asking for more stuff on the crown store SMH.

It’s not pay-to-win since it offers absolutely no advantage. I was only pointing out that there is already a precedent of being able to purchase something that you have achieved on another character. My point is that it should be optional and customizable if introduced at all.

(EDIT: No, I don’t really want people who want this option to have to pay for it, but otherwise implementation like Skyshards and skilllines might give most people what they want.)

In no other game I’ve played with AwA are a character’s ability to quest, interact and explore the map anew obliterated as on ESO PTS. SWTOR gave extra options from your AwA. GW2 had meta achievements that required multiple playthroughs and gave awards for achievement point totals. As currently implemented, ESO AwA gives nothing and takes so much away —worst AwA implementation EVER. *queue achievement unlock*

SerafinaWaterstar

Nemezijus wrote: »

They did announce it on the livestream as an upcoming feature. I don't think they will back out of this change by now, but soon the patch notes will clarify it for good.
I don't recall them backing out from any features that they announced on the livestream, with the dual mount being an exception, but if I remember correctly they did mention that it will be only testing phase.

Yes they announced it but it was done by Gina in their bit after the big flashy chapter reveal, and was done in such an ill-prepared way that it seemed like an after-thought. Not something they were proud of and wanting to share.

Araneae6537

Note that I was totally fine with ESO being different than other MMORPGs and totally character-centric. I do empathize with those who want to change their main or be able to share/transfer achievements/progress for other reasons and ZOS could have implemented a QoL OPTION for doing so. That would have been great.

Instead it is looking to go from being uniquely character-centric to being uniquely FUBAR

Nemezijus

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Nemezijus wrote: »

They did announce it on the livestream as an upcoming feature. I don't think they will back out of this change by now, but soon the patch notes will clarify it for good.
I don't recall them backing out from any features that they announced on the livestream, with the dual mount being an exception, but if I remember correctly they did mention that it will be only testing phase.

Yes they announced it but it was done by Gina in their bit after the big flashy chapter reveal, and was done in such an ill-prepared way that it seemed like an after-thought. Not something they were proud of and wanting to share.

Do you recall any of the time they cancelled any of such announcements? Because I can't come up with anything else..

Araneae6537

KMarble wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

I don't want AWA to be implemented the way it was presented to us so far, but what you're proposing isn't fair to anyone - especially the folks in this thread who are in favor of the change.

I personally don't care nor want all of my characters to share achievements (one of the reasons I have more than one character is so I can go through ALL of the game again). The best solution - the RIGHT solution - is to have the people who want and/or care about titles and achievements be able to have that in a way that doesn't prevent those of us who want to replay content from being able to do so.

Putting that in the crown store is absolutely NOT the solution.

Okay, then let me purchase an option from the Crown store to keep my account and characters the way the are!

I do absolutely agree with you, btw, and really hope ZOS will implement AwA properly but increasingly fear they will not. My point was more that it should be optional once an achievement was unlocked on one character for the account and the suggestion of putting it in the Crown store a bit facetious and cynical but I can’t blame people for reacting negatively to that…

Tandor

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

This is what I found myself thinking of over the weekend. People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win. The players that want those achievements/titles on an alt (or even on their main if it was an alt that happened to get them) can get them, ZOS earn some additional revenue from it, and the players who want to earn those achievements/titles by running alts through the game can do so exactly the same as now.

Tandor

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Note that I was totally fine with ESO being different than other MMORPGs and totally character-centric. I do empathize with those who want to change their main or be able to share/transfer achievements/progress for other reasons and ZOS could have implemented a QoL OPTION for doing so. That would have been great.

Instead it is looking to go from being uniquely character-centric to being uniquely FUBAR

Although my preference in any game is for everything to be character-centric unless it's a legacy type thing that is additional to the character-centric stuff, the reason I like the present structure in ESO is that ZOS recognised that some like character-centric stuff while others like account-wide stuff, and they compromised perfectly by making some things like achievements character-based and others like champion points account-wide. Now they're tearing up that compromise and making a substantial shift to everything being account-wide and it's changing the whole balance of the game.

Zezin

Tandor wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

This is what I found myself thinking of over the weekend. People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win. The players that want those achievements/titles on an alt (or even on their main if it was an alt that happened to get them) can get them, ZOS earn some additional revenue from it, and the players who want to earn those achievements/titles by running alts through the game can do so exactly the same as now.

The reason why people buy skyshards is not because of the achievements it's because of the skill points associated with them, they're buying skill points.

Elsonso

Tandor wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

This is what I found myself thinking of over the weekend. People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win. The players that want those achievements/titles on an alt (or even on their main if it was an alt that happened to get them) can get them, ZOS earn some additional revenue from it, and the players who want to earn those achievements/titles by running alts through the game can do so exactly the same as now.

Honestly, I figured that when ZOS finally got around to implementing a form of AwA, this is how they would do it. A simple Crown Store purchase, per character, after implementing a hidden behind-the-scenes AwA tracker. This does not fit every request, but I have to think it hits more than the current one does.

silvereyes

Tandor wrote: »

People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win.

It's hardly win/win/win. A lot of people were pretty upset when "pay to skip" started to be added to the store, the same way they were when research boosters with no cooldowns were added, and mount training with no cooldown.

It's not that people like these artificial grinds in the first place. It's that many shouldn't have been in the game to start with (e.g. time-gated mount training), and rather than removing the grinds, ZOS cashed in.

Now there is a financial incentive for ZOS to add more artificial grinds.

Tandor

Zezin wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Balthors wrote: »

If the character logged don't have the achievement but others got it, just add a mention like "this characters don't earn it", or keep the text grey like now, but as I show before, with the list of other characters did. So you still can see and prove you already did the achievement.

Account Wide Achievements will be still available, and we don't lost what we did before, and still keep the pleasure to get achievements on other / new characters.

That really simple and everyone will be satisfied, no ?

No, they won't.

Because no thank you I would like to see the achievement lit up on my main even if it was done on another toon. I would like all toons to have equal chance of being my main without having to grind through everything I've already done on that main on another toon because it still says that I haven't done that content.

Have you been on the PTS to test it? If you "get" the item on another character to complete the collection it will forever say "Earned by: NOT MAIN CHARACTER" That sounds like the antithesis of what you're looking for.

I don't care who it was earned by. I just want to see it earned on my main.

So, you play as an account. So an account-wide overview would be perfect! That's what we're asking for as well. Show both the entire account's achievements as well as how our individuals are doing. Those who play the account can stay on the account-wide view. Those that play individuals can look at the individual characters. Everybody wins! Glad we're on the same page

No, we're not. I don't want an "overview". I want all toons to be the same, to have equal chance of being my main because their achievements are the same because an overview is an overview and it will also say I haven't actually done/found/ground out x number of dailies on that specific character because it's an overview.

Why couldn’t ZOS just sell achievement completions in the Crown store then as they do Skyshards and skill lines? Then everyone would have the option to give their main or all their characters any achievement they’d earned on any character but it wouldn’t be forced on everyone. I realize this wouldn’t help with multi-part achievements like monster trophies, but it would be something. Please note also that I’m not wanting to penalize anyone with a fee to align achievements how they want; all I really want is for it to be optional.

This is what I found myself thinking of over the weekend. People who wanted account-wide skyshards were quite happy in the event to buy them on the crown store once one of their characters had unlocked them, why shouldn't the same arrangement be made for achievements and titles? That way it's win/win/win. The players that want those achievements/titles on an alt (or even on their main if it was an alt that happened to get them) can get them, ZOS earn some additional revenue from it, and the players who want to earn those achievements/titles by running alts through the game can do so exactly the same as now.

The reason why people buy skyshards is not because of the achievements it's because of the skill points associated with them, they're buying skill points.

Absolutely, I never suggested otherwise.

majulook

The more I think about this change the more I believe the change is possibly part of the Server and code upgrade. The database will no longer need to hold information on individual character progress in achievements and titles and thus be significantly smaller. Some performance boost on the back end is maybe what they are expecting, as this would trim millions of entries in the database. Similar to the reasoning they gave for archiving player data of those who have not logged on in a long time.

This being said, I just want it to be easy to track an individual characters progress in the game. As long as I can see which individual character has actually earned things, and the XP gains of each characters discovering or doing something for the first time is not removed. I do not care if there account wide Achievements / Titles. For me its not that this is happening, its the way its being implemented.

Vrienda

Surely this can be as simple as untying the achievement from whatever code decides a delve or world boss is 'complete' right? Maybe have the last boss of every delve drop a 'trophy' you have to turn in to a nearby generic bounty hunter, doesn't even need dialogue, for completion credit. That could create a satisfying gameplay loop of stacking several trophies and turning them in for a significant payout. For DLC delves you could just tie completion to the delves associated quests. After all quest credit is how dungeons and public dungeons work. So it shouldn't be too hard from a coding standpoint, right?

At the very least make delves, world bosses, world events that would have dialogue locked out and dolmens character-specific like Maelstrom Arena and public dungeon group events.

Saieden

majulook wrote: »

The more I think about this change the more I believe the change is possibly part of the Server and code upgrade. The database will no longer need to hold information on individual character progress in achievements and titles and thus be significantly smaller. Some performance boost on the back end is maybe what they are expecting, as this would trim millions of entries in the database. Similar to the reasoning they gave for archiving player data of those who have not logged on in a long time.

This being said, I just want it to be easy to track an individual characters progress in the game. As long as I can see which individual character has actually earned things, and the XP gains of each characters discovering or doing something for the first time is not removed. I do not care if there account wide Achievements / Titles. For me its not that this is happening, its the way its being implemented.

The amount data actually required, per character, for achievements is a trivial amount that is relatively static, compared to, say, the logging of trade transactions which has more unique variables and a higher frequency of occurence several orders of magnitude greater. Continous checks are not an issue because the data is always present client-side, and only validated against the server when a change is detected, and similarly could be compared to combat server checks which can have 100s per second in a single trial instance. There is absolutely no way this has any performance benefits, unless the code is just unimaginablely bad.

KMarble

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Okay, then let me purchase an option from the Crown store to keep my account and characters the way the are!

I do absolutely agree with you, btw, and really hope ZOS will implement AwA properly but increasingly fear they will not. My point was more that it should be optional once an achievement was unlocked on one character for the account and the suggestion of putting it in the Crown store a bit facetious and cynical but I can’t blame people for reacting negatively to that…

I assumed your post was tongue in cheek, but took the opportunity to reiterate that I, and I believe many other who oppose how AWA was implemented in the PTS, don't want to deny AWA to those who want it. I just want it done right.

tmbrinks

Well, it looks like no changes in the 7.3.2 patch notes. And with my plus sub running out tomorrow, guess I'll look into where else to spend the $140 I would have normally dropped for the yearly sub tomorrow. Maybe to BDO, which I've been playing lately. [snip]

So sad to see 8 years of gameplay disrespected and discarded like this

[edited off-topic comments]

KMarble

Vrienda wrote: »

Surely this can be as simple as untying the achievement from whatever code decides a delve or world boss is 'complete' right?

I believe that this is exactly what they tried to do, but because there are so many little (and big) things that are tied up to achievements, various were overlooked or forgotten. This is why people were getting the Precursor without having to do the quest on alts and weren't able to start the quest for the music box, for example.

No, it's not as simple as you might think, nor is it efficient (dare I say sane) to do this after so many years, expansions and short-sighted solutions that were applied all over the game.

Dojohoda

It is EU's turn to test how AWA is being implemented. I am looking forward to reading their comments. Please test it and share your thoughts.